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"Uneven" A documentary on college baseball's scholarship issue

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RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007

First, I’ll say it would be great if baseball had twenty-five or thirty-five scholarships. This statement out of the way …

This video is a bunch of distorted bull crap. Mississippi is not where you go to get a big view perspective on college baseball. They have two major conference teams (SEC) with 10,000+ seat stadiums and not a MLB team within almost 300 miles of them. Most college baseball stadiums aren’t packed with luxury boxes. Most college baseball programs don’t fund themselves with revenue. This is not the reality of typical D1 college baseball. The video also talks about how much money the CWS makes. The CWS is not the typical college baseball season. It’s two weeks out of the year.

If Lemonis and Bianco are so concerned about how much college baseball players pay to attend college why don’t they give back half of their million dollar-plus annual salaries towards paying for players to attend college.

If it was mandated college baseball provide twenty-five scholarships I’m willing to guess half of the 299 D1 baseball programs would announce dropping baseball within a year.

So Mississippi and Mississippi State, stop whining and deal with the overall reality of college baseball. Most D1 programs are playing in front of small crowds. Even Florida and Vanderbilt have small attendance numbers relative to Mississippi and Mississippi State.

Last edited by RJM
B BaseballMOM051,000+ posts
@RJM posted:

Do you think college baseball makes money?

Do you think college women's basketball or volleyball make money? I played both in college and it was rare we had 1/4 of the stands with fans. But, those sports get full scholarships? I understand that college baseball doesn't make money but it's not fair that those young men have to split 11.7 scholarships amongst 35 players.

RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
@BaseballMOM05 posted:

Do you think college women's basketball or volleyball make money? I played both in college and it was rare we had 1/4 of the stands with fans. But, those sports get full scholarships? I understand that college baseball doesn't make money but it's not fair that those young men have to split 11.7 scholarships amongst 35 players.

What I saw in the video was a bunch of old men, red necked Billy Bubbas whining about Title IX. Do you know the origins of Title IX?

Patsy Mink graduated from college PBK. She was rejected by every med school. She decided she was going to change the world. She went to law school, became a congresswoman and wrote Title IX. Title IX isn’t about sports. It’s about all the prejudice women faced in education.

Because of Title IX my daughter became a college athlete. Because if Title IX her high school wasn’t allowed to pass down the old, mildew infested locker room to the girls. It had to be renovated to be equal that of the boys locker room. The competitiveness she acquired in the classroom and on the field helped her become a fierce trial lawyer.

So, if you want to blame anyone for Title IX blame all the men on the med school admissions boards that turned away Patsy Mink.

Last edited by RJM
B BaseballMOM051,000+ posts
@RJM posted:

What I saw in the video was a bunch of old men, red necked Billy Bubbas whining about Title IX. Do you know the origins of Title IX?

Patsy Mink graduated from college PBK. She was rejected by every med school. She decided she was going to change the world.She went to law school, became a congresswoman and wrote Title IX. Title IX isn’t about sports. It’s about all the prejudice women faced in education.

Because of Title IX my daughter became a college athlete. Because if Title IX her high school wasn’t allowed to pass down the old, mildew infested locker room to the girls. It had to be renovated to be equal that of the boys locker room. The competitiveness she acquired in the classroom and on the field helped her become a fierce trial lawyer.

So, if you want to blame anyone for Title IX blame all the men on the med school admissions boards that turned away Patsy Mink.

Yes, I understand Title IX. I am in the legal field and actually have run across and worked on cases dealing with Title IX compliance issues in my 20 year legal career.

While I understand and appreciate what it is and what it has done for young women across the country, including myself when I played sports in college, I don't agree with the opportunities that are being taken away from young men for college sports.  Not going to change my mind on that.

A adbono10,000+ posts
@BaseballMOM05 posted:

Yes, I understand Title IX. I am in the legal field and actually have run across and worked on cases dealing with Title IX compliance issues in my 20 year legal career.

While I understand and appreciate what it is and what it has done for young women across the country, including myself when I played sports in college, I don't agree with the opportunities that are being taken away from young men for college sports.  Not going to change my mind on that.

Very well stated and I couldn’t agree more.

BaseballBUDDYBaseballBUDDY1,000+ posts

Just throwing a  Scholarship change-up.

_______________________________________________________________________

Disclosure: I am an African American Baseball Dad of a former SEC player, now in the Minors. My son played Ice Hockey, Soccer and Tennis in HS (never played competitive Football or basketball).  I'm not a Jimmy the Greek armchair guy, so stay focused on the Pitch and not on the Pitcher.

______________________________________________________________________

Here's the Pitch:

While speaking with a group MLB scouts (just chatter) regarding scouting talented athlete's, I was shock by the frankness of the following statement:

"... We all know that some of the best HS athlete's don't flock to baseball in lieu of football and basketball (in part due to the cost of a College Education). If College baseball provided full scholarships (like football and basketball), the COMPLEXTION of the game would change in a couple of seasons."

This statement may be a generalization, but just look at the P5 benches and sidelines on game day. Look at the speed and athleticism. Think about Jameis Winston ( Seminoles Pitcher and RF) and Kyler Murray (Oklahoma QB).

If Baseball had Full Scholarships some of the 45 Football Roster spots would flock to a non-contact sport, which embraces "Athletes."

Sometimes, the status quo keeps things the way they are: For a Reason.

I rarely see discussions on HSBaseballWeb regarding the lack of African-American baseball players in College, so here we go.

3and2Fastball3and2Fastball10,000+ posts
@BaseballBUDDY posted:

Just throwing a  Scholarship change-up.

_______________________________________________________________________



______________________________________________________________________

Here's the Pitch:



If Baseball had Full Scholarships some of the 45 Football Roster spots would flock to a non-contact sport, which embraces "Athletes."

Sometimes, the status quo keeps things the way they are: For a Reason.

I rarely see discussions on HSBaseballWeb regarding the lack of African-American baseball players in College, so here we go.

You are 100% correct.

it’s all about “follow the money”.  The NCAA is a billion dollar business.  Football & Basketball generate a vast majority of that immense profit and wealth.

Because Baseball does not turn a huge profit, the incentive for the NCAA to mandate more scholarships is simply not there.  

Multinational Corporations will happily exploit African American talent for a profit at any opportunity, this of course we know throughout history.

Last edited by 3and2Fastball
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
@anotherparent posted:

My understanding is that it's even more complicated.  Baseball doesn't really need 35 players, usually about 20 play.  But football doesn't need 85 players either.  Could they cut some football spots and give scholarships to baseball, or is there something else I'm forgetting about football?

Before the change in scholarship rules in 2008, the NCAA studied the issue and determined that, on average, only 27 players on the typical roster actually receive any significant playing time.  This is why you can only have 27 guys on scholarship in D1.

@BaseballMOM05 posted:

Yes, I understand Title IX. I am in the legal field and actually have run across and worked on cases dealing with Title IX compliance issues in my 20 year legal career.

While I understand and appreciate what it is and what it has done for young women across the country, including myself when I played sports in college, I don't agree with the opportunities that are being taken away from young men for college sports.  Not going to change my mind on that.

It's all a matter of whose ox is being gored.

MTHMTH10,000+ posts
@BaseballBUDDY posted:

Just throwing a  Scholarship change-up.

_______________________________________________________________________

Disclosure: I am an African American Baseball Dad of a former SEC player, now in the Minors. My son played Ice Hockey, Soccer and Tennis in HS (never played competitive Football or basketball).  I'm not a Jimmy the Greek armchair guy, so stay focused on the Pitch and not on the Pitcher.

______________________________________________________________________

Here's the Pitch:

While speaking with a group MLB scouts (just chatter) regarding scouting talented athlete's, I was shock by the frankness of the following statement:

"... We all know that some of the best HS athlete's don't flock to baseball in lieu of football and basketball (in part due to the cost of a College Education). If College baseball provided full scholarships (like football and basketball), the COMPLEXTION of the game would change in a couple of seasons."

This statement may be a generalization, but just look at the P5 benches and sidelines on game day. Look at the speed and athleticism. Think about Jameis Winston ( Seminoles Pitcher and RF) and Kyler Murray (Oklahoma QB).

If Baseball had Full Scholarships some of the 45 Football Roster spots would flock to a non-contact sport, which embraces "Athletes."

Sometimes, the status quo keeps things the way they are: For a Reason.

I rarely see discussions on HSBaseballWeb regarding the lack of African-American baseball players in College, so here we go.

Okay, I'm trying to avoid work, so I'll bite.  In my opinion, full scholarships would change the "complexion" of college baseball to some degree, but not much, and certainly not quickly.  IMO, we lose most African-American kids long before they even think about scholarships. 

Some of it is probably cultural.  African-Americans, parents and kids, just don't seem that interested in baseball.  As with most things, that probably starts at home and is perpetuated through peer groups.  I don't know why things are that way.  Perhaps it's the vicious cycle of not seeing players that look like them.  I don't know.  But, it is certainly a factor.

Socio-economic factors are a big factor.  Youth leagues are rapidly being replaced by travel ball.  In my opinion, most travel ball these days is basically weekend rec ball.  But, when you attach the travel ball label to it the price automatically goes up, which puts the game out of reach for a lot of families.   And it's not just African-American kids that are affected, although the impact on them is disproportionate.  I've seen white kids from the proverbial wrong side of the tracks that were also priced out of the system. 

In order for this to change, you have to have enough people with the WILL to make it change.  And that will ain't there.  I fought this battle for years at the youth level. There is a segment of the population that is happy with the status quo because it benefits their kids.  I have seen and heard this first hand.

So yeah, more scholarships would help a little, but the real change needs to start at the youth level.

Just my .02.

RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007

I believe the issues with American blacks and baseball go beyond socio-economics. Barry Larkin’s son grew up with plenty of money. The kid had no interest in baseball. He told his father baseball is boring and uncool.

When my son moved on from playing for me to a prospect travel team I volunteered my time with RBI. We went after the K-5 inner city elementary school kids. The clinics we ran were advertised in all the elementary schools. Very few black kids showed up. It was Hispanics and a handful of white kids.

I’ve never heard of any talented high school player regardless of any color being held back from travel ball by finances. Jerry Ford of PG said he’s placed many talented kids without money with travel teams.

Are travel sports too expensive? Where does all the money for inner city AAU basketball teams come from? How do all the inner city kids afford football and get to Orlando for the Pop Warmer championship tournament?  If there’s interest  the money will show up.

Even if a black kid gets to college baseball and goes pro he goes pro in the minors. After the first few rounds pros aren’t getting much signing money. In pro football and basketball the best players are getting immediate major league contracts. While basketball may have less roster spots there are basketball opportunities to earn a living all over the world.

So, even if the cost of travel is an issue and solved and scholarships are an issue and solved baseball is still the worst avenue to go pro of the big three sports.

Last edited by RJM
P PTWood10,000+ posts

My daughter works just as hard as my son. In fact she helped push him to get where he is because she was his COVID work out buddy when he put on 30 pounds of muscle.  So let’s not say “these hardworking boys” deserve it but not the girls. I love how the blame goes to Title IX and not the elephant in the room IMO. 85 football players get full rides. That’s more players than an NFL roster.

On another point, I agree that a big part of the uneven is the have and have not teams and conferences and that practically all of the footage showing how baseball generates revenue was at Dudy Noble which is not representative . Mississippi State had to cut a $400,000 check to the NCAA after hosting the Super Regionals. But if it were just revenue, womens gymnastics and softball (at least in the SEC) have just as strong a following if not stronger if you look across the whole conference (gymnastics meets at Auburn are insane). Softball CWS drew more viewers this year.

I think football is just so powerful and, just like NIL for so long, no one wants to touch it because it’s so hard. And because it would finally, openly admit that college athletics is not as pure and amateurish as they want you to believe  my husband is part of the University of Richmond basketball team that was the first #15 to beat a #2 seed in the NCAA. Applications to the school jumped significantly the next year. College sport=big business.

As for baseball and basketball, all of my husbands friends were betting my son would switch to basketball once high school started and all the fans (and girls) were going crazy over him dunking and the team winning. But baseball was his #1 one love from day one. If money had been a huge issue for us, we certainly would have pushed him to basketball. And to answer the question on youth basketball, the better you are the less you pay. My daughter played EYBL and had zero expenses. Nike sponsored. Not even travel.

Finally, representation does matter. @BuddyBaseball mentored us and our son, in turn, is mentoring 15 boys aged 8-14.

OK. Hopping off my soapbox. Lol

Last edited by PTWood
A atlnon5,000+ posts

Stupid questions.

1. Why are there certain sports that are headcount vs. equivalency?  Is it bec they are revenue generating sports?

2. For equivalency sports, why not base # of scholarship based on % of a set percent (or ratio) of max roster size.

3. When are schools allowed to stack scholarships?  What is rule/guidelines?

So after watching the video, the one that I definitely didn't agree with is the part about individual state scholarships (often funded by lotteries).  I don't understand why this shouldn't stack for Athletes.  It's unfair if it doesn't.  The student earned it and should get it like others for achieving (and maintaining) academics standards.  Then on top of that, they work more for the athletic - thereby earning the athletic scholarship.  If there's an issue with this, it's how some states offer the state scholarship to adjacent states.  I don't get that one.  Why not increase the benefits to state residents rather than give it to out of state?

RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007

Adbono … I have an idea about #1.

College sports revolves around football and men’s basketball. Football and men’s basketball were given everything they needed. Then there had to be a calculation on how many women’s sports were needed to offset these two sports.

Once this was done every other sports was tossed in the equivalency basket.

What bothers me about football is how many scholarships they receive. Football could get by with fifty rides. First and second team on both sides of the ball and six specialists.

Last edited by RJM
P PTWood10,000+ posts

@atlnonFootball and basketball generate the most revenue but football also has the highest costs. Title IX plays a role in the women’s tennis, gymnastics and volleyball head count sports because it takes that many sports to balance out the 85 football scholarships.

You can stack scholarships most places which is one more reason to preach academics.  The “uneven” part is each state or school has different programs meaning that the playing field is very uneven with Vanderbilt having the biggest advantage with a huge discretionary fund which, to be fair, benefits the entire student body. There is no way a state school can compete but it is a benefit that other private schools to capitalize on and don’t (Vandy has the double advantage of being in the SEC which is a huge draw for baseball players).

As for the out of state situation each state is different. NC is very pro state while SC is generous to out of state students.

O old_school10,000+ posts
@RJM posted:


Because of Title IX my daughter became a college athlete. Because if Title IX her high school wasn’t allowed to pass down the old, mildew infested locker room to the girls. It had to be renovated to be equal that of the boys locker room. The competitiveness she acquired in the classroom and on the field helped her become a fierce trial lawyer.

So, if you want to blame anyone for Title IX blame all the men on the med school admissions boards that turned away Patsy Mink.

I don't believe in recent years anyone has argued Title IX is bad...in concept. In reality it hurts male athletics every day of the year and props up womans to a level they couldn't sustain without the MANDATES required by the law. What happened in the past was apparently very unfair, i wouldn't know because at the tender young age of 52 i don't recall the days of non title IX, nor would many on here. At least I assume being in your mid 60's would skew well above average on this website and that is what is required to recall days before it existed.

What i have seen over the 30 or more years is mens sport suffer, womans be artificially propped up and a tremendous amount of people pointing fingers at each other.

Simple fact is women as a gender aren't as interested in sports as men are. Another simple fact is that men as a gender aren't interested in fashion, dance, hair clips or matching outfits as woman are. The numbers are clear, overwhelming, indisputable and it will never change.

You want to blame someone for the lack of baseball scholarships it is Title IX - you want an easy scholarship have a talented daughter and teach her to work hard in sports...you want to take the hard road attempt to get a scholarship in a sport where the government has mandated life must be "fair"

You could have the money and scholarships be 60/40 men vs woman and it would still be tilted to the ladies getting a disproportionate amount of support...there is no solution and there never will be with government help and regulation on the topic. Sad but true. It is ultimately just another case of good intensions run amuck. 

O old_school10,000+ posts

One thing to keep in mind about Title IX - it is just numbers and math, it ultimately has nothing to do with fair. if money was no object and every single athlete received everything for free and nobody was rejected or cut due to lack of ability or funds every school would still be out of compliance with Title IX simply on the sheer numbers of athletes who actually want to play.

A anotherparent10,000+ posts

Old_school, I never wanted to play sports, didn't understand people who did, and was astonished to have 3 sons who were all variously athletic.  But, what about D3 schools?  No scholarships, but they still have women's teams.  So women aren't just doing it for the scholarships, are they?  And high school girl's teams happen, without scholarships.  These schools can't MAKE women participate just to have balance for Title IX. 

Of course, the real answer is to take away all athletic scholarships at all levels (give the money to - gasp - talented academic students).  But then you'd be back in the situation of the 1890s, where schools were finding other ways to give talented athletes money to play the revenue sports.

(as a note, men may not worry about matching outfits, but I don't think women care as much about athletic shoes...)

O old_school10,000+ posts
@anotherparent posted:

Old_school, I never wanted to play sports, didn't understand people who did, and was astonished to have 3 sons who were all variously athletic.  But, what about D3 schools?  No scholarships, but they still have women's teams.  So women aren't just doing it for the scholarships, are they?  And high school girl's teams happen, without scholarships.  These schools can't MAKE women participate just to have balance for Title IX.

Of course, the real answer is to take away all athletic scholarships at all levels (give the money to - gasp - talented academic students).  But then you'd be back in the situation of the 1890s, where schools were finding other ways to give talented athletes money to play the revenue sports.

(as a note, men may not worry about matching outfits, but I don't think women care as much about athletic shoes...)

If the schools accept federal money they need to be compliant, so yes they do everything they can get compliant.

You cant make girls want to play...so you cut the numbers down for the boys to match the girls. You classify cheerleading as a sport to drive up numbers, you get creative any way you can to be compliant. When you combine the ridiculous football number with the lack of female numbers...all the rest of men get screwed. That is just the way it is.

our local HS doesn't 9th grade sports in several boys sports solely because the lack of interest on the girls side. Our neighboring district doesn't have 7th and 8th grade teams for boys but do for girls just to balance the numbers. The truth is the boys are all playing youth leagues anyway and the school teams are always marginal but it still happens. it is honestly ridiculous.

I am all for supporting female athletics, I am sponsor of our local college softball team because i love the game, know the coach and the girls play it very well...but Title IX is still bad - classic example of unintended consequences so typical of government. What did Regan tell us the scariest thing we can hear is "I am from the government and here to help you"

Oh keep in mind who the biggest losers are in this, the poor who can't pay their own bills...again unintended but still getting screwed.

Last edited by old_school
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007

If the schools accept federal money they need to be compliant, so yes they do everything they can get compliant.

I called the Hillsdale College athletic department about Title IX compliance. Hillsdale doesn’t take any federal money. They still have to follow all federal rules as mandated in order to be a NCAA member.

You want an easy scholarship have a talented daughter and teach her to work hard in sports.

I don’t recollect the process being any less challenging for my daughter and softball than my son and baseball. An athletic scholarship takes talent.

A atlnon5,000+ posts
@PTWood posted:

You can stack scholarships most places which is one more reason to preach academics.  The “uneven” part is each state or school has different programs meaning that the playing field is very uneven with Vanderbilt having the biggest advantage with a huge discretionary fund which, to be fair, benefits the entire student body. There is no way a state school can compete but it is a benefit that other private schools to capitalize on and don’t (Vandy has the double advantage of being in the SEC which is a huge draw for baseball players).

But this is not unique to athletics though, right?  Take athletics away.  The fact that each state or school has different scholarship programs gives an unfair advantage to the ability of that school to attract students period (regardless of athletics).

Why would someone (in the video) advocate taking away a student-athlete's access to these programs that are available to non-athletes?  At the end of the day, even a out of state fee is a competitive advantage that an in-state school has to attract in state talent.  Do we then say take away out of state fee for all schools nationwide (and apply it to all students, athletes or otherwise) just to make everything "even"?

RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
@K9 posted:

Many years ago the NFL realized that by enforcing competitive balance that they could grow the total pie for all teams.  As the NCAA loses its stranglehold on college athletics I think that the most powerful conferences would be wise to remember that lesson.

There’s a big difference between the NFL and college football. NFL teams have the potential to play on an equal playing field. This is assuming competent ownership and management. college football has been on an uneven playing field since the advent of large stadiums and the expansion of television coverage. The P5’s and other conferences don’t have equal opportunity for success and never will.

It appears the inevitable for college football is the expansion of the SEC, the expansion of whatever the PAC12, Big10, ACC alliance becomes and the destruction of the Big12.

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