Unfair Advantages

My 2022 and I were there too, and it's the nature of the beast that the scouts go where the measurables are, but I don't regret the experience that my son and his team gained while down there.  The kids getting looks are not all 17yo, but some of them might have been 16yo based on the age calendar.  That said, the kids that I saw getting looks were deserving and demonstrated skills that the majority of kids down there did not.  Regarding offers/commitments, there are paths for college coaches to extend offers to kids via their travel team or HS coaches.  So, for the kids that these colleges feel that they "have" to get, there are ways for them to get offers and make commitments (though a number of them may change or not stick).

2022's should be focused on getting bigger, stronger, faster, better right now as the majority of them aren't elite physically or athletically.  Good luck to you and your son, we all have a long way to go!

Hi, my 2022 actually turns 15 in August, and my 2020 doesn't turn 17 until Sept. My 2020 recently played in the 17U and 16U WWBA in GA, he's a PO, worked to his advantage to pitch in both. 

Just something you have to deal with, not sure of your location but here, you can start school if you are 5 by 12/31 (some private schools are the exception.)

As far as commits...college coach tells travel ball coach to have kid call him at a certain time. Invites him to the school while a camp is in session...

Exaustedmom, 

I've often wondered alot of what you said myself. I don't see how it's fair to reclasify kids the way parents or coaches do, unless there is a real learning disability or some other issue school wise. Of course their velos and power etc will be better, they are 2 years older. I never understood how this is allowed. 

I also wondered how freshman are getting committed if schools are supposedly not allowed to "recruit" them yet. Im not naive to what probably is going on, but it's very frustrating. 

Some kids are blessed with early maturing bodies, or are held back, and get offers early.  But you don't need to get offers your freshman/sophomore year to play college ball.  Just keep grinding, have your son focus on getting better each year and it will happen if he has the tools.

Enjoy the ride, he just finished his freshman year.  If you get caught up in commitments this early, you risk him losing the enjoyment and walking away from the game.

BTW, if you're not blessed with an early maturing kid, yes, you're wasting a lot of money at 14/15, IF YOU'RE IN IT JUST TO GET AN OFFER.  My son was a slow grower, so we played legion ball after freshman and sophomore years and saved thousands.  Had a good junior year, blossomed that summer, received multiple D1 offers, was All State pitcher his senior year.  Some kids take their own paths, don't worry about those around you and things you cannot control. 

And get some rest!

ExhaustedMom posted:

So we just returned from WWBA 15u in Georgia.

My son is 14, turning 15 next week. 2022 Grad, as is his team.

My question is how is it that so many players in this tournament are 17yo? Also how are so many committed as Freshman? I thought they couldn't even talk to coaches! There were many parents who stated they had held their son back 2 years so they would be bigger etc... 

How is it possible to stack up against that? How is that a fair comparison? College coaches were only looking at these older kids, because of course they have the better velocities etc.... Seems like our team wasted a lot of money.

Thoughts?

i have a hard time believing that at the 2022 WWBA there were a lot of 17 year olds.  There could have been a large number of 16 year olds because you can turn 16 in that year and be okay.  I do not know of many states that allow 19 year olds to play baseball if they started the year as 19 year olds, I may be wrong.  I also don't know of many parents who hold their kid back 2 years.  2022's could easily be 16,  My sons would have been 16 going into their sophomore year and I held them back once each.  They started early.  If they were not the right age, your coach could have protested them and they would have had to forfeit.  Again, they can legally be 16 if their birth date fell right.  I just looked through the Canes lineup which won it and none were too old.  There were a lot of 2021 players but they were the right age.

The scouts will go where the numbers are.  They are there to see the best.  They can commit because they were on campus or talked through a coach or another person.  Coaches can still make offers even under the new system. 

The system will never completely be equal because teams will find ways to get around it which is legal.  Just remember it is not travel ball so coaches will fly kids in and pick up kids for that tournament or the big dawgs will bring players who are legal down from another team even another age group to play for the big tournaments.  It is big money for them.  When you look at the fact that the Canes and Team Elite Organization won almost every WWBA, they publicize that if you play with us you will win.

ExhaustedMom posted:

So we just returned from WWBA 15u in Georgia.

My son is 14, turning 15 next week. 2022 Grad, as is his team.

My question is how is it that so many players in this tournament are 17yo? Also how are so many committed as Freshman? I thought they couldn't even talk to coaches! There were many parents who stated they had held their son back 2 years so they would be bigger etc... 

How is it possible to stack up against that? How is that a fair comparison? College coaches were only looking at these older kids, because of course they have the better velocities etc.... Seems like our team wasted a lot of money.

Thoughts?

Welcome ExhaustedMom.

Possibly, I'm stating the obvious but people can't reclassify their age but they can reclassify their grade.  You can only play up in age not down at PG tournaments, so your son did not play against 17 year olds unless he played up in the 17U division.  My son went to PG WWBA many times.   His team would play in his age group one week then they would play up an age group the following week.   This actually suited them well as they won it all at 16U in 2008.

Recruits can verbally commit anytime they want...this isn't Russia.   Whether or not it means anything is a different question.   Typically it is done through the travel coach or the recruit visits the campus or a phone call is prearranged (again through travel coach).   

Love your screenname!.  If you think you are exhausted when your son is a 15 year old recruit, you just wait.  Ten years ago, I used to have blond/brown hair and now I'm mostly gray....it was the college baseball recruiting.   You're only just getting started!

Also, the age becomes an advantage if you're kid is a stud and can potentially be drafted at 17 or 20.

Being a 19 year old high school senior can be a slight advantage.  Being a 20 year old college freshman can be a slight advantage.  Being a 24 year old in Rookie Ball in the pros can be a pretty big disadvantage

when I saw the thread title, I thought this was going to be about Mike Trout.  How can someone be 6'2" 235 pounds and run like Deion Sanders?!?!

exhausted Mom, I wouldn't worry about it.  These things have a way of evening out over time, just like everything else in Baseball (such as when you hit a line drive laser beam right at someone, but then later in the season you get a hit on a little bloop pop up that the defensive player lost in the sun)

A 15 yr old HS freshman announcing his commitment to a 4 yr University means absolutely nothing.  Nothing means anything until a NLI is signed and that can’t be done until fall of Sr yr in HS. 

If you are going to a showcase event and your pitcher is not throwing 90+, or your hitter doesn't have exit velo of 90+, or your kid is not 6'4", you have by definition wasted your money.

Suckers are born every year.  They pay for all these money making events.

Sorry to be so blunt here, but it needs to be said.  Of course the numbers may not be right and caveats etc, but people need to think about why they are doing things beforehand.

Unless birth certificates are being faked, the players should be playing within their age group. If you are playing in an "open" (mixed ages) tournament then you should know that going in. Not sure what the problem is here. 

Welcome to the site... you found the right place at the right time.  

Ask yourself.. what is the goal of going to these big events for the player (and parent).  Most often, it is some combination of getting exposure to recruiting coaches, playing against better competition, seeing what the player is up against in the big pond and getting comfortable in that setting.  What is the goal of the college coaches who are there?   They are looking for players who are showing the skill set, talent level and mental makeup that can help them win games at the college level.  Most 14 y.o.'s aren't far enough along in their development yet to show that.  Some are.  Some will get there in the next few years.  Some won't.

Assuming your son (and parent) has a decent plan for his college recruiting efforts, he will end up at the level he belongs, based on his talent, skill set and hard work.  It really won't matter one single bit how much older or better the kids were when he played at WWBA at 14.  In fact, if anything, it will only help him down the road. 

It's all about perspective.  Most often, parents' perspective bleeds down to the son/player.  If the parent feels the player is at an unfair advantage because he is playing against older and/or better players, the son will be more inclined to think he has no control of the situation and will buy into being slighted.  If the parent sees the positives and fuels the fire - pointing out the tremendous opportunities, seeing where the bar is set, showing where son is already competing on many levels with these players, stating how great it is that he is able to play against better/older competition so that his improvement will fast-track, illustrating in black and white what efforts will be required to reach that level and encouraging him to do so, then you will have a motivated young man, prepared to put in the work it will take to maximize his abilities.  Which scenario do you want for your son?  Which scenario will your son want?

 Get some rest and start lighting the fire!

Honestly there were a lot of 17yo and definitely 16yo. The issue with Perfect Game is how they word their qualifications.  Its Class of 2022 OR age cutoff. Parents I spoke to from Indiana,  Georgia, etc.. SAID they held their kids back 2 years. So technically they are 17yo 2022 and eligible. I understand how it "works" but I don't understand how it's fair lol. Nor do I see it as a legitimate measure of actual 2022 age appropriate kids. Just my frustration with the system.

Son went to WWBA 16U and 17U, ended up at a HA D3.  So, were that team and those experiences a waste of time and money?  Sure, in a sense, but (a) we didn't know that he wouldn't end up at at D1 until he didn't, and (b) he played well against top competition, and that was fun, and he made some good friends.  If I had known then what I figured out by the time it was all over, would we have had him on that team again?  I think so, because the alternatives were less appealing.

I've said this before:  the problem is that many (including us) are told, around 15, that their son "projects to be mid-major D1."  So then, you want to do all the high-level stuff in case it happens.  For that matter, you have to decide on a summer team the preceding August, when you don't know what is going to happen with your son.  "Could be D1" is misleading.  EIther you are D1 (FB 90, 60 sub-7.0, pop sub 2.0), or you are not.  If you are, then you are one of those kids at 15U WWBA who are committed.  If you are not, then D1s are not interested, until you hit those numbers.  And there are plenty of kids who do hit those numbers earlier, whether it's because they were held back a grade, or they just physically did it sooner.

Like Pitchingfan said, I also don't think there were many 17 year olds down there. Way more 8th graders than 17 year olds. I know one 17 year old freshman that was down there. He got very sick at 9 and missed a year and a half of school. He's also committed to a P5, but he won't be able to play HS baseball his senior year because he will be 19 so it works both ways. 

As far as wasting money in Georgia. Yeah you probably did. About 90% of the teams at the 15u WWBA wasted money. In general, unless your coach or program carries weight and is connected with colleges you're wasting money down there. Fun experience? Yes. Best use of your dollar? Probably not. 

Regardless. College coaches weren't only looking at older kids because they  were bigger and threw harder. That just isn't true. As far as competition goes maybe a few older kids makes it a little tougher, but your son is in HS now - age doesn't matter anymore. He will be playing varsity soon against older and younger kids. Unless your pool had multiple 17u teams in it then there isn't much of a disadvantage if any at all. I just looked up 3 teams. Two of the top teams in the country and the best team in one of the states you mentioned. Players ranged from 14 and 6 months to 16 and two months old, which is normal for a sophomore in HS which is what they will be in a few weeks. 

Also occasionally works the other way. The #1 player in the 2021 class, re-classed to 2020 this year. He's the #2 in the 2020 class. 

I don't think it is worth any time worrying about what other people do with their kids. Those are things you can't control.

That said, I'm pretty sure most if not all states allow 19 year olds to play in high school. In California, the oldest you can be is turning 19 on June 16th, the summer before your senior year. Those kids are what is known as "double holdbacks" -- it is very common in basketball. Some states might be a few months later, but I think 19 year olds play everywhere. Example: there was a first-round pick this year from a Texas high school who turned 19 in November of senior year.

Second, there seems to be a misunderstanding about how PG tournaments work. It's not like youth tournaments, where the age cutoffs are hard and fast. Here are the eligibility standards for the 15U WWBA this summer:

"Age Eligibility: 2022 Graduate or younger OR born on or after May 01, 2003"

I have no idea whether the OP's son actually played against 17 year olds in the 15U WWBA, but under PG rules, 17 year olds (or any age ) would definitely be allowed to play, provided they are in the class of 2022 or later. So in the double holdback example, a 2022 with a birthday of June 16, 2002 (making him 17 right now), would not only be able to play in the 15U WWBA but would also be able to play all four years in high school.

Almost on cue... a 14y8m 2022 committed to LSU. Think it was yesterday.

ExhaustedMom posted:

...... but I don't understand how it's fair .....

"Nothing is fair unless it is between the foul poles"

(I have been wanting to use that line for years!)

Son went to the 15u WWBA in Georgia and it was our first rodeo with PG.  We were exhausted.  And hot.  And washing pants in the hotel tub with iron out....not fun.  

Son says after one game, "Mom!  the Ole Miss coach tipped his hat to me!".  I think, Yeah right.  "Nice!" I say.

We get home and early fall, son gets a letter from the Ole Miss coach.  It was probably a camp invite, but it was fun for him to get nevertheless.  (I recently found a  letter he received from Miami, too.)

Point:  you never know who is watching.  Or who made notes.  Sometimes is it not what team you play ON, but what team you play AGAINST.

Did my son play for Ole Miss or Miami?  (rebel hell) No.  But his first college at bat was AGAINST Ole Miss!  

And like Fenway, all my grey hair is due to my baseball son.  I refuse to color it!

I will also say that some times the younger players get the recognition.  My 2019 played at 17U WWBA when he was 14 with a team from Maryland when we lived in Missouri.   He pitched 6 innings of 1 hit baseball against the team that won the entire thing, FTB I think it was.  There were scouts galore there because of FTB, not the team he was playing for or for him.  But he jumped on a lot of radars really fast because he had shut down one of the top teams in the nation on the biggest platform.  Funny part is none of the parents from the Maryland team knew who he was.  Their answer was he just showed up this afternoon to pitch.  They pointed to me and said I think that is his dad.  The scouts were more amazed when they found out he was 14 and incoming freshman.  The coach pulled him for his ace in the 7th inning and lost 0-8 when it was 0-0 going into the 7th.  So unfair advantage is not always true. 
I will agree with several who have already said WWBA is not for all teams.  The weird part is some times it is not who you play with but who you play against in the big tournaments.  Son's big moments came in 17U WWBA when he was 16 and pitched a great game against a team that had a kid throwing 97.  All the scouts were there and he showed out.  Followed it up with a game that he hit a bomb at WWBA Lakepoint in the next game.   Then came back in the 16U and had a great game pitching.  Phone blew up and offers came.  Right time, right place, right opponent.

Exhaustedmom,

Yes, it all seems unfair.  But... if your son really wants to play and has the talent you have to trust your process.  He needs to continue to develop - get bigger, stronger, better.  He needs to start thinking about schools to target.  You and he need to develop a 2-3 year recruiting plan to get exposure and continue to get better.  All the other stuff other kids are doing is noise and has no bearing on your son's future.

My son (2019 grad) had similar experiences to what your son went through.  He was one of a couple on his team that did not "reclassify" as an 8th grader.  Most of the kids on his team were a year older but the same grade.  Several got offers and committed as freshman, others as sophomores.  My son was a smaller, younger kid but by junior year he was 6'-2' and 190 pounds of solid muscle and could rake.  When he was ready he got the attention he deserved and ended up at a great school.

In retrospect, he didn't know what he wanted out of college when he was a freshman or sophomore anyway.  He wouldn't have been ready to commit at that age.  As he matured things become more clear to him and it was the best possible scenario that he took extra time before he committed.  I wouldn't change anything in his timeline even if I could.

First, regarding the 17yos. There probably were few. But once you became obsessed with it you probably found out about most of them. Then it seemed like a lot. 

A player can’t control who is in his grade, A player can only control his development and reaching his optimum potential.  

When my son finished 9th grade he played 16u as a 14u eligible. He was 5’11” 135. He had just grown and not filled out. I couldn’t control his growth. I could control not spending money for exposure before it made sense. But knowing almost everyone in the family on both sides are tall with solid builds I figured he was a year away. So did the 17u programs who recruited him for the following summer.

Physically it was never fair for my son being undersized from being a 4’10” 11yo until he was a high school soph. But he never let it get in the way of performing. He never let it affect his attitude. I never would have allowed it. He played college ball at 6’2” 195.

The kids you’re complaining about are the kids your son will be competing with for the rest of his baseball journey. Complaining distracts from the objective. Complaining doesn’t help him. It could beat him down emotionally. 

Life isn’t always fair. It’s just the way it is. It doesn’t matter how brilliant you are. If you’re not a Ford you will not be chairman of Ford Motor Company unless they run out of Fords.

What works in life is coming to understand “impossible is just the degree of difficulty.” Beating “impossible” involves a lot of hard work and commitment.

I identify as a Ford.

adbono posted:

A 15 yr old HS freshman announcing his commitment to a 4 yr University means absolutely nothing.  Nothing means anything until a NLI is signed and that can’t be done until fall of Sr yr in HS. 

Practically all the kids we know who verbally committed early (freshman/sophomore) either de-committed to go to another school (because the first one probably wasn't a fit but they had no idea at 15)... or there was a coach change and now they are scrambling as incoming seniors to find the right opportunity... Please don't rush...

There's quite a bit of wisdom here. I won't fall into the trap of restating it; except to echo one sentiment: In my own words, try not to sweat it. 

First of all, you need to give recruiters and scouts more credit for their ability to adjust their standards when they're viewing players of varying ages. In most cases, they've been doing this for years; and, they're accustomed to modifying their assessments based upon the ages of the players they're evaluating. As part of this, they're watching a lot more about how the players are performing than simply whether or not they're hitting the pitches of older players or getting their pitches hit by older players.

Secondly, try to begin to discard the notion that a game is unfair if it's played with or against players who are older. Your son is rapidly approaching the age when it's no longer going to be taken into consideration. Consider for a moment that if he dons a college uniform as a freshman, he will be competing against players who are 3 and 4 years older; ones who have battled college-level players for several years. Then, if he's good enough to play professionally one day, he'll be asked to play with and against grown men.

In any case, do try to relax. If your son is worthy of college and/or professional opportunity, it will come to him; regardless of the age of the other players on the field.

Best wishes for his success!

@SultanofSwat - I don't think it's so much "blunt" as it is mostly incorrect .  Yes, of course these are money making enterprises, so can't disagree with that point.  But the thresholds you cite are for the best of the best.  If you are looking to get your son recruited in the SEC or ACC then sure.  But there certainly are plenty of other divisions that would look at a kid under 6"4, throwing under 90.  In fact, MOST schools would give serious evaluations well below those numbers, even at D1 level (to say nothing of D3 of which there are also showcases).  Probably more fair to say if you kid isn't throwing above 80 or is seriously undersized as a Junior, then the path is going to be much more challenging.  

It's been said before here many times, if your kid is a legit slam dunk Power Five or MLB prospect, he would have to try really hard to not get discovered!  

I know a 2021 kid who quit Baseball a year ago, who is still getting recruited by SEC schools, and had a few MLB scouts check in with him in the last month, even though he committed to a Power Five school for football and is telling everyone he is done with Baseball, literally hasn't played a Baseball game in 12 months etc etc

Other than the ages, how did you like the tournament? Location? Did y'all get to play at LP or elsewhere? How was traffic? We have been out of the game for a few years and i wonder about the changes at LP and how PG is progressing in the Atlanta market? 

 PG is done with Lakepoint. This was their last year. PBR took it over.

nycdad posted:

 PG is done with Lakepoint. This was their last year. PBR took it over.

Any idea where the big WWBA will be next summer?

My kid's team played at the new Iowa Perfect Game complex "Prospect Meadows" this summer, it is really nice, and has 8 full size fields.  Hard to imagine that Cedar Rapids has the infrastructure and enough high school fields  etc to handle the 300 teams of a huge tournament.

I've heard Iowa and/or Texas I think.

Hutto, Texas outside Austin

https://www.perfectgame.org/Ar...w.aspx?article=16335

RJM posted:

Hutto, Texas outside Austin

https://www.perfectgame.org/Ar...w.aspx?article=16335

Yes, but that complex' grand opening is in 2021.  I'm wondering about next summer

Hutto opens in 2021...nothing scheduled for 2020...

I thought they were due to finish up at LP in 2020...

Wechson posted:

@SultanofSwat - I don't think it's so much "blunt" as it is mostly incorrect .  Yes, of course these are money making enterprises, so can't disagree with that point.  But the thresholds you cite are for the best of the best.  If you are looking to get your son recruited in the SEC or ACC then sure.  But there certainly are plenty of other divisions that would look at a kid under 6"4, throwing under 90.  In fact, MOST schools would give serious evaluations well below those numbers, even at D1 level (to say nothing of D3 of which there are also showcases).  Probably more fair to say if you kid isn't throwing above 80 or is seriously undersized as a Junior, then the path is going to be much more challenging.  

Sultan is correct about what he said. Coaches from SEC, ACC and other top 50 D1 schools are who you are likely to find at WWBA. Premier Events like those benefit only the top level prospects and the next layer below the top level. Beyond that it’s good experience but it’s not a wise use of your money. Players throwing low 80s (to use your example) would be better off targeting regional or local showcases that are frequented by coaches from lower level D1, regional D2, D3, NAIA & JuCo schools. 

@adbono - For sure, if you are talking about the WWBA specifically, then that absolutely makes sense given its designed for elite prospects.  I realize that's how the thread began, but @SultanofSwat 's comment specifically said if you are going to a *showcase*, which I took to mean in the generic sense and what I pushed back on. I think we're in agreement on the rest. 

The WWBA is definitely not only for Power 5 prospects

3and2Fastball posted:

The WWBA is definitely not only for Power 5 prospects

The vast majority of teams (and players) that go to WWBA are wasting their time and money if the goal is exposure. Only exception would be a hard throwing pitcher.