USC Recruiting

In general, if a school is not willing to invest $$ in you then you should not expect that they plan to use you. Of course there are players that beat those odds, but not many. Their lack of scholarship money should be read in that context.

Its a nice compliment...not many players get a shot to be on the USC team, but if he has offers with scholarship dollars attached to other schools, I would say that he should strongly consider those other schools.

16 players on scholarship seems a bit low...I would say more typical is 21/22. According to NCAA data a few years ago, they had 19 on scholarship.

Justbaseball is 100% correct. Where your son is being offered the highest financial package, whether it's athletic money or academic money or financial aid or a combination thereof, is where he is wanted the most. Be wary of the line "we really want him but we have no more money available". Players who are considered impact players in any division usually get a financial package of 50% or higher. Anything lower than that seems to mean he won't be making much impact as a freshman. Your financial condition has nothing to do with these factors except as to financial aid. I'd go where they are giving him the best financial package and the best educational opportunity.

Cycle, My '05 was told by one of the very first coaches that recruited him "money is a sign of commitment to you as a player". We've remembered that ever since. You do have to factor in the amount you're offered by the amount of scholarships the school funds. Giving a kid 20% might be a generous offer from a school that only has 2 scholarships funded for example. Of course in that scenario, you would question the commitment of the school to the baseball program! Most big D1 schools will at least give "book money" to recruits - rosters have lots of kids that fall into this category.

Good advice all....

But being the Devils advocate I am I would add this....how is the overall fit? The interaction with the coaches? The educational differences? The social differences? The geographical differences? What is the family budget? Do you expect an annointed spot simply because you get $? And do you want to play for a program that values Scholly $ over performance?

Went on a junior day trip in the spring, to a DI with one of the best conferences in the country. The coach claimed that he had two guys who education he was paying for with baseball money who were not on the team. Had two walk on's beat them out. Said he didn't care what your clippings were all that mattered was what you did between HIS lines. We saw one of the kids and he was undersized but an absolute player. Be aware, It can come down this way as well.

Now, I am no USC fan/foe particularly, but would you pay to have the USC experience? Or would you rather get a free pass to Podunk State. If Stanford expressed a desire to have my son, unpaid, and we could afford it, and I really felt good about the opportunity there and felt he would be treated straight up by ability, I would be hard pressed not to seriously consider doing so, even if we had a FULL ride from Waco State.


Am a firm beliver that Personal fit, is often ignored when it comes to selecting a school, and I think that is why so many end up transferring. In the end There is so much more to this decision than money....

The Devils advocate has been served...

quote:

The coach said that the rest of the players, including many of the starting squad, are playing with out a scholarship.

Cycle,

Maybe that is why USC hasn't done much for the past XX years?

Their glory years with Rod are LONG GONE! Gone long before you were born!

Observer - very well said and very true!

Two players that I have played with got the same "USC call" this past season, too. One of my coaches told me this is a throwback to the old USC days when they won the college world series year after year. The players would pay just to practice with the team, let alone a shallow promise that they would have a roster spot, but without money. Someone posted that a "fit" is important. Well, in my opinion part of the "fit" is, how bad do they want you? USC's big white horse, their football team and their glory years of the '60's and '70's shouldn't be enough for anyone to buy their line. Tell 'em to show you the money.

There is NO subsitute for doing your homework. There is NO substitute for quality people and a quality straight up program. Money doesn't guarantee fairness, truth or humanity, or playing time for that matter.

USC costs $40,000 a year. Even 50% there is still a chunk you will have to make up, either through loans, grants or your pocket. You need to be sure that USC, or whatever school is good for you. If the coach says he has 16 on scholarship, that means that those 16 are splitting the 11.7 scholarships he has to give. I have friends with sons on the SC team, one has books covered the other two nothing, however they are "A" students and recieved quite a bit of academic grant $$ that eased the pressure.

Observer - There are some things I don't forget and one I clearly remember was son's current college coach telling him that he would have to earn his spot on the field regardless of scholarship amount. That a scholarship player and a walk-on would be treated the same...they all compete for the job. I believe it too.

But a scholarship offer (or lack of one) is an early indication of where they place you in the pecking order. Can they change their mind? Yes. Will it take more work for a non-scholarship player to break through? I believe so.

One of Stanford's all time leading hitters was a non-scholarship player (Chris O'Riordan). Actually he was a pure walk-on...they didn't even know who he was when he got there. But he had to spend a lot of time on the bench and in practice before getting his shot. The coaches even discouraged him from continuing early on. But he was an exception and people should realize the odds are long in a big-time program like USC for a non-scholarship player.

Just to throw in a few random thoughts-

Getting any offer from SC is quite a compliment to anyone's ability IMO.

as someone mentioned above, there may be other sources of money available than just athletic at a place like SC. they have a SIGNIFICANT endowment.

they do carry a large roster and many kids there do not receive $$$$$. They are happy just to be Trojans. Many see little if any playing time. Wouldn't be my choice to go that route, but for some.........

I'd urge you to get all the feedback you can to determine the fit with this program. They have a definite "style". Among other things, they are not shy about cutting people, changing arrangements with $ to the good and bad over your years there. As to playing issues, the Coach calls all pitches. They have only one pitcher this year that had the option to shake off a sign. A year or so ago, JP Howell left SC over such issues and went on to be an All-American at Texas. IMO SC is a very uptight atmosphere. There's been quite a few transfers in recent years, kids that have become ineligible etc.

SC has had some recent down years. They are typically though in the hunt and it is pretty rare that they don't get a tournament birth. While they haven't won it all since 1998 they still blow everyone away with 12 national baseball championships overall. The tradition there is quite something. By way of a Pac 10 comparison, Stanford has two championships in '88 and '89 I believe. By way of further comparison I think the coaches at Stanford and SC are very similar in calling and controlling "all of the shots".

In any event, overall SC has the dough, great facilities, great education. Housing is tough after your freshman year. They have a strong greek system if that appeals to you. The surrounding area is horrible, but the campus is beautiful and safe.

BTW, as far as the comments of SC's glory years being in the '60s and '70s etc Hello, in football they are the current National Champions and heading for a 3 peat. The baseball '98 championship ain't that long ago. Overall, I'm quite certain they are in the top 5 overall for total national championships in all sports combined. They are in the process of building a state of the art event center for basketball and volleyball and concerts. Perhaps best of all, they have no men's varsity s****r

I know nothing about USC and their program.
In regards to any program, the NLI is the players commitment, the scholarship is the commitment from the school, whether it be full ride or books only and that is for the player to decide. However, I don't care HOW great the program is, I wouldn't want my son to play, just for the "experience or fit" if the coach was not willing to give something. I personally think it says, "you are good, but not good enough for me to give you anything". So you send your son to XYZ with no commitment, the following year the coach announces to all non scholarhsip players that he is unable to keep them on the roster. Your son has had limited playing time. Now what are you going to do? Start the process all over again?
For some of you who do not know how scholarships are funded, I will try to explain (please anyone jump in if I have made some mistakes).
Let's say XYZ's medium tuition is 20K. That is 11.7 x20, roughly 234,000.00 dollars the coach as to spend on X amount of players, given through percentages to confuse everyone even further. Through creative budgeting he can figure out a way to make a commitment to all, some larger than others. This is also achieved with the help of additional funding, academic, endowments, waivers, alumni funds, etc. Most coaches will leave a very comfortable cushion in their budget, thus the expression "not funding all 11.7 scholarships". You can't tell me that he can't find anything to give a player?
Schools that can get state money can make a killing on this one. If a player gets 100% tuition paid by the state, and their meals are covered by the atheletic dept, all they have to pick up is the room expense and books. Some schools give you books, don't want them back, the student goes to sell them and they get money in their pocket. It happens, it was an offer given to my son here in FL.

Three things to add...

Absolutley, there is a pecking order, to begin with. The scholarship kids have an obvious immediate advantage. They are the "chosen". However, I am just idealistic enough to actually believe that at most schools the coaches long term job retention is about winning. Players grow, players develop, injuries happen, velocities increase, and motivations change, kids transfer, mistakes are made in recruiting. In the end I figure college coaches get paid to win. Not just to play scholarship kids becasue they pay their bills. Yes it's harder. But lots of good things in life are sweeter when worked for.

Second, I think it bears reminding ourselves that not every kid is a scholarship player. I may be wrong but I figure that there is a whole walk on world that we risk doing an injustice to with these kinds of "scholarship or bust" conversations. Fact is kids make teams as recruited walk ons. Fact is kids make team as unrecruited walk on's. Yes it is hard but the whole process is hard and I for one would tell a kid to play out his dream. You won't get a second chance at 35.

Third. I think one has to be very careful expecting a coach/school to fill in funds that a small scholarship doesn't cover. Perhaps this is poor info but I was told by any number of financial aid departments that accepting ANY baseball scholarship money makes it a great deal more difficult to get other aid. Govenment and state aid aid being the exception. Not only does that aid risk getting charged to the baseball fund, but the NCAA frowns mightily on such alternative funds as it can be hard to assertain if the funds are legal or illegal. The fiancial aid departments at many schools simply don't want to risk many souces of non baseball aid to NCAA microscope. Perhaps I am wrong but it seems to me that, one of the ironies is that in some cases it may make more sense from a purely financial standpoint for a kid NOT to accept baseball aid. What about these players? Are they the chosen? What kind of comittment can they expect?

Observer. All true, but if we get back to what the original question was..."wouldn't want to risk giving up a sure thing somewhere else and end up with possibly nothing at USC. Anyone familiar with this situation?"

I think most of us were trying to answer in the vein of what was the likely going-in viewpoint of the coaches. At least thats what I thought was the important question for right now.

Absolutely things change. Absolutely pure walk-ons and invited walk-ons blow by the scholarship kids. Absolutely the coach will play who he thinks are the best players as his job does depend on winning. But a lack of scholarship money at THIS point in the process is a pretty good indication that as of now, they consider this player behind others who are getting scholarship money. And because of this, more time WILL be spent trying to correct a mistake on a money player than a walk-on. Thats just a fact.

Tiger Paw Mom wrote it perfectly:

"I personally think it says, 'you are good, but not good enough for me to give you anything'."

Schools like USC use this sales pitch all the time and for some it may turn out to be worthwhile. You make the roster, you play and a little bit of money may come your way. For others, you don't make the roster, the coach leaves and you are back to your junior year in high school - wondering where you're going. Things can go south for the scholarship athlete, too, but the commitment from the coach, be it book money or hard scholarship money is like a little insurance policy - no coach likes to cut a scholarship player.

Observer,
I do not agree with your thinking, but that is just my opinion.
College baseball is a business, the coach approaches it as such. He will get the best player that he feels can contribute for what he can afford. Yes, every once in a while a player will come along and prove he was better than everyone thought, it happens I am sure. However in this day and age, with showcases, tournaments, information sharing, scouting, he has done his best to find what he needs and offer an incentive to play at his school, instead of XYZ university.
My son's two best friends were walk ons at a small D1, with a good baseball program. They did very well, but the following year were let go because he had to let all non scholarship players go. You have to understand by signing that NLI and making an offer, he is pretty much bound to keep those players unless they become academically or otherwise ineligible. He cannot risk talk that the school does not live up to the commitments. Oh players are released, but more often than not, they are forced to be released due to losing scholarships, but they still have to keep them on the team, if you are understanding what I am saying. A player has to be pretty darn good to get a start, and if he was that good, why wasn't he offered a scholarship to begin with. In choosing to be a walk on at a big D1 and thinking you will be an impact player right away is pretty bold thinking. You want to sit there for your college years or go play all the time at padunk U. There comes a time when the HS player has to decide, what he wants to get out of the experience. I would choose the better school for my DEGREE, not baseball.
If a player decides to play without a scholarship that is his decision, but has to consider all that is involved.
I am not sure where you got your information about scholarship dollars. The gov't provides assistance based on tuition and financial need. Yes it is much harder to get additional money through the government if you have been awarded a good amount from the school, but there are other ways to fund an education. Long term student loans, equity loans, etc are used for those purposes. You can walk into any bank and get a loan for your child's education. Many are deferred. If your son is given a baseball scholarship for baseball, he can accept other money for other reasons as long as it is not baseball related. In other words, if he was awarded by the local kiwanis club 2000.00 for the highest BA average, that money reduces his baseball money, and has to be reported as such. If he got it for the highest GPA, it is his and doesn't count against the baseball money.I just recently had a discussion from the NCAA regarding that issue for clarification purposes for a scholarship idea we have here on the HSBBW.
I suggest you call the advisor at your son's school who handles this, everyone school has one (maybe not the little town schools). Here they are called Brace advisors and all they do is help the satudents to understand the Bright Futures scholarship and make sure they apply and parnets are informed. I found her to be the best informed regarding the awarding of scholarship money.
I am sure many make the team as recruited walk ons with a promise that if they perform they will be awarded money in the future. However, they may not be part of the world of the scholarship player, which is a whole support system to help the athelete to succeed (they have a vested intrest). That clearly is a disadvantage from the get go, unless you feel your player can go to class, study, workout and practice and manage to pull off a good GPA to keep him on the team without any one's assistance and support, then you have a winner. Parents of HS players have NO idea the demands made on the player.

quote:

Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Cycle,

Maybe that is why USC hasn't done much for the past XX years?

Their glory years with Rod are LONG GONE! Gone long before you were born!

Been: Cycle must be some young phoneme, in 1998 USC (the real USC from the city of Angels)won it's last NCAA Championship in Baseball. Based on your statement, Cycle is only 7 years old! USC has a baseball history that no one can counter with. Nobody....

USC has won 12 NCAA baseball titles, more than any other school. Texas is second with six NCAA crowns. (still only half of USC)

1948 Sam Barry & Rod Dedeaux
1958 Rod Dedeaux
1961 Rod Dedeaux
1963 Rod Dedeaux
1968 Rod Dedeaux
1970 Rod Dedeaux
1971 Rod Dedeaux
1972 Rod Dedeaux
1973 Rod Dedeaux
1974 Rod Dedeaux
1978 Rod Dedeaux
1998 Mike Gillespie

http://usctrojans.collegesports.com/sports/m-basebl/archive/usc-m-basebl-champs.html

This current team is a up and coming team (this year USC 15-9 41-22, First round NCAA regioanl winner, lost to Oregon State in the NCAA Super Regional)Ian Kennedy (#1 pitcher) is starting for the USA National Team, Jeff Clement (C) won the Johnny Beach Award. Both players were named to the 2005 All-American First Team. Clement was drafted #3 overall in the June draft.

This team is getting better by the second and a call by USC is a huge deal. Congrats to Cycle!!!

That being said, pitchers normally get most of the 11.7 money....as well all know, you win with pitchers. Sounds like he's trying to steal you...keep looking and fishing.

Lastly, Been, I know alot of USC alum's be very careful when you talk smack about USC.

If you want to talk about USC Football, let's get it on!

Correction: Texas is second in titles with six, including two of the last four.

Hook 'em

I believe Morgan Ensberg was a walk on at USC

Love stirrin' up the natives! More later...

Whatever they are willing to invest in you says alot about how much they want you. I have had kids get burned before because they WANTED to go to good old State U.

Should have taken the better offer from the school that REALLY wanted them.

Yep, get a full ride if he can...this is true most colleges only have a select number of scholarships...I too was recruited by USC and they did not offer me what I was getting from Long Beach so I went to Long Beach State as they gave me the most money. Just tell him to identify what's important to him (school, baseball program, playing time, etc.) and go from there.

rawskills, what do you think of coach buckley? i was impressed myself

I don't think one school giving you more $$ than another means they want you MORE. Some schools have more to spend, some schools recruit out of state more than others. All that has to be taken into consideration.
But I wouldn't advise my son to go play for anyone if the coach said he had spent all his money already, and has nothing to give. JMO

quote:

The coach said that the rest of the players, including many of the starting squad, are playing with out a scholarship.

Maybe you could ask the coach to elaborate on this statement? If it's true...then maybe recruited walk ons have an equal opportunity to compete at USC?

Let’s see...Just to clarify...If we review and synopsize our group thread, these then are our commandments to an impressionable family and player looking at DI….

Baseball money = Love.....According to our thread money is a sign of love and commitment to you as a player. The only real one. Talk is cheap. Show me the money. You don't have any money for me you don't really want me.

The greater the baseball $, the greater the love....Players who are impact players in any division usually get a financial package of 50% or higher. And a better player= larger scholarship (6’7”, 94 MPH LHP) = more love. So, always demand more money to see just how much they really want you.

Don’t go to a school who does not offer you baseball money...If a coach is not willing to give something it does not matter how great the program is. Again, show me the money! If a school is not willing to invest $ in a player then they should generally expect to sit the pine, or reasonably expect to get cut. We don’t want our son’s son to be playing for the experience or to attend a school because it is a good overall fit.

Baseball money is readily available. So much so that often baseball scholarships go begging.... Most coaches budgets include very comfortable cushions. If a college coach really wants you he definitely has $ available and waiting. Money/scholarships can always be found.

Non baseball Money is also very available....As long as it is not distinctly and directly labeled as baseball money then a player has money available from a wide range of sources including endowments, waivers and Alumni funds.

There are actually two teams for every university.....Scholarship players (generally 20) who have a whole support system to help the athletes to succeed because the coach has a financial interest. Then there is the other 14 who have to struggle along without the programs assistance and support…

The integrity of the coach is best judged by the money that he offers....If a coach says that he really wants you and claims to have no money then he has no integrity becasue money can always be found.

observer44 ... Right on !!!

Observer - Looking forward to that beer in Monterey in a week-and-a-half where we can further discuss this.

But for now, lets go back to the original post...player had USC saying they had no money but wanted player. Player had other options WITH money.

If USC was his dream, then I say go for it. But have your eyes open. Thats all.

If on the other hand, USC is just a big name school to you, but you'd rather be more certain that you'll play...well maybe you should consider the school that will pay you to play. In other words, don't get too hung up on the name.

Of course you are right that its not all about money. And of course there are many players that have beaten the odds and played on great teams without any scholarship money. And of course you should not pick the school paying the most if its not the best school for you.

But have your eyes open...USC could offer that boy money at this point in time if he was high on their list. Its simple, they just could. Since they don't have scholarship money for him at this time, there is no reason for him to commit (unless it will help him get admitted to the school that otherwise wouldn't). Heck, maybe they'll have money later? That happens quite often.

Just have your eyes open...thats all.

Interesting thread.

USC is one of the great schools in one of the great locations with one of the great programs, probably still the greatest.

Lots of their guys indeed succeed with little or no money and end up in the Major Leagues for a long, long time.

All it takes is superb talent, and there is always lots of it on campus regardless of the record (and, by the way, they were in the College World Series in 2001 and a contender this year). They will be at the top again and soon.

If you have talent and you are willing to take a risk, go for it. At this particular place, the money may or may not mean anything at all.

If you can play, you will indeed play.

Futureback...Thanks. I wondered if anyone got my point. I like you already. Even after only 16 posts...

JustBB...As always your golden fingers got right to the point. "Just have your eyes open" I couldn't have said it better myself. I'd also add, "Dig Deep", "Do you homework", and "Get real". YOur point is well taken also that players are often completely unrealistic about the level at which they belong. And that they often choose the wrong school for their ability and languish.

And yes in the specific USC instance the player should do some research into other options. Then make an intelligent decision. And it might be to take the invitation, only the player involved can feel out the situation, weigh the options and go with the option that is best for him. I still believe in fit: Geography, Academics, baseball, competition, team needs, social, coaches, money is but a single factor, albiet a big one. I also idealistically believe that most college coaches tell the truth, as best they can. And the ones that don't ultimately get hurt by their reputations. Can think of three schools in that boat now.

Agreed that a player is usually well served to take whatever help he can get, and frankly money is indeed a sign of comittment, and yes, usually that is the best path. But the options are as great and the paths to the success of the dream are as varied as the individuals involved. Not every successful player gets $, Not every $ player is successful, not every player gets a "creative" full ride. Not every player who deserves a full ride, or even a partial gets one. Conversely not every kid who gets one deserves one. It's an art, not a science. Kids make mistakes so do coaches. As a result opportunities are presented. Luck is prep. meeting opportunity.

IMO realistically there are a few top players who command great respect from many schools, (Would appear to be the sons of the majority of the posters here) but the reality for the vast majority of players I have seen and delt with, is a process that is about as hard as getting a hit off a Stanford pitcher. College coaches, and financial aid departments are not candy stores for the majority of collegiate players. You said it yourself, 11.7 baseball rides, 20 baseball money players on a roster, and the majority of those are partials. That leaves 14 with no baseball help.

NCAA Compliance officers may not be doing their jobs at all schools, but I figure they do at many. Most players I have talked to get some other money, yes, but not near enough to cover particularly at high end schools. As a result it's "loans for everybody! unless daddy and mommy Pony up and most do in part because the investment to date is huge.

Tried to walk away but IMO, the thread had gotten to the point where I thought it might be a tad unrealistic. Couldn't in all good conscience leave it for some impressionable young player who was not a superstar to find and then expect some DI to roll over/roll out the red carpet for him and then be crushed as I have seen many kids do when offered unrealistic financial and "love" expectations, by well meaning adults who unwittingly set a player up for disappointment.

Now, JustBB I'll take that beer...or do I really have to wait two weeks? On second thought I am willing to wait if it comes with a Zonal title. A great deal sweeter if I can see the "Strikeout King" on the mound...in the fog...against Tiawan...doin' his thing!

observer44,

Very thoughtful posts! Nice job for only your 17th post Seriously, I saw the point as well in your previous post, but you have laid out some of the other important factors to consider. I also think money is important but by no means the end-all-to-be-all.

Thanks Cleveland...Do appreciate it. You may not want to encouarge me....

Tired of that heat? If you happen to be in Monterey for the Bronco World Series, stop by. JustBB will be holding class, I'll be listening...

Observer - I thought you promised sunshine down there!

Nice post.