Velocity

roothog66 posted:

bacdorslider posted:

I see how it got off topic. It always does. But honestly how hard a 9 year old throws means nothing

> On Feb 23, 2016, at 8:49 AM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

No, of course not, but I think a parent has a kid who he thinks throws hard and just wonders "is he throwing hard for his age compared to other kids who 'throw hard?'" I think it's just a natural curiosity. Now, if you take a 9yo and try to make x velocity at 9yo extrapolate to y velocity by high school your just going to be disappointed. It's like the old Robert Heinlein quote: "Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

And the question yet to be addressed and answered in all these posts and pages  is why does this matter, and is it even a question a parent needs to be or should be asking when their son is 9 years old?

They cannot do anything about the 9 yo who is throwing harder.  There should not be any elation to learn there are 9 yo's who don't throw as hard.  At 9 yo, there are so many variables and they don't even start to begin to even out for 5-6 more years.  If their son is in the mid-range or  has the highest or lowest velocity, what does it matter in baseball at 9 yo?

The very first orientation in many MLB minor league meetings relays the message to work on, focus on and control only what you can control and keep your mind free of all the things you cannot control in baseball.  I wonder if that message might work well for parents of 9-12 year olds.

bacdorslider posted:

wow.... talking about velo on a 9 yr old..... really ?  I vaguely remember those games.... I remember taking him to dairy queen after and maybe swimming at a friends house.   I remember getting home and my wife asking me where he was and I said I thought you had him, and driving back to the park to find him playing tag with a bunch of kids, to this day he does not know we left him there. 

Never thought about a radar gun.... I was a terrible parent.

 2018 was the 4th son competing daily with 3 older brothers... he could not match them physically, but over time he figured out how to compete , the mental side and how to win.   How to beat his older bigger brothers and their friends.

Never had a pitching lesson.... now as a high school soph hitting 91.....  he has had many a recruiter and scout watch him, and they all say the same thing, the velo is great, the command is great,  but what sets him apart is how he competes.....  we need a compete gun...

 

I agree with Bacdorslider

for my  2019 , I  too was a bad parent , I never let my son pitch until he was 13, since the daddy coaches always found the kids that pitched and burn them out. my 2019 always threw harder that all the other kids on his teams. and he played up,

now  my 2019 is a freshmen (15yrs) , and those other kids are 2018 and 2017's , most if not all of them who pitched ( or should I say just throw strikes jimmy) cant even get to 80 MPH on the mound or even on the infield . some didn't even make their HS teams, (note most of them always had arm problems of some sort) . now when they were 9,10,11yrs old  they threw hard, but Mr. Daddy coach  always said throw strikes jimmy and I always told my son to blow it up and hit the back stop, we focused on getting his arm better and stronger but with proper mechanics , ( no sidearm, throw the ball with 4 seams etc) I may also note he was never let to play SS or Catcher, since all the daddy's had their sons there, but now who's got the Rocket for a arm and just made starting HS Varsity catcher as a Freshmen and is on a high Follow list  , My 2019 ,,   proud dad! 

Dads you do want to know what your sons throw at least once a year , and then move on and work on it and the love of the game..

build that father son (mother/ son) bond, life moments .. enjoy the ride.. embrace failure and learn from it . 

You know I have no idea what good or average velocity is for a nine year old. Have never gunned a nine year old.  Does anyone know?  I understand that it doesn't really matter, but it would still be interesting.  It would be interesting to know how hard the best 9 year old throws and then see what happens over the next 10 years.  No assumptions, just the facts.... What happened!

Also we should remember it is not necessary that everyone pitch.  There are 8 other positions.  Still, good throwing mechanics (not exactly pitching mechanics) are important for everyone.

I think most everyone can agree that a 9yo can safely participate in pitching, however the parameters of what constitutes "safe" seem to vary widely.  My main disagreement with certain comments above relates to having a kid throw less than 100% or even less than 95% will ruin that kid's future MLB hopes.  While I would agree that at below some level (say 75%) the mechanics simply do not work, throwing 80-85%  - at 9yo - will serve 99%+ of kids just fine.  I will agree that there needs to be the intent to throw hard, but 85% is hard enough.  I've seen lots of comments recently about differences in cruising speed versus max velocity - the understanding is that most college pitchers are probably throwing 90%+ and very seldom ramp up to 100% in a game situation.  For those that believe throwing at 80% ruins mechanics, please explain what aspect of mechanics simply cannot be slowed down.  Please also explain how some very elite pitchers - taking the mound in college and pros - is able to work between 90% and 100% and usually get everything to stay in sync.

At 9yo, all kids need to take the mound and pitch safely.  The idea that the really smart dads prohibit their kids from pitching at all simply feeds the overuse problems - I think this is called trying to have your cake and eat it too.

One additional comment -if we want a database for 9yo pitching, I suggest that in addition to pitching speeds that their testosterone levels be noted also - same might apply up through year of graduation.  I am quite convinced that if you did a study and attempted to determine what markers at 9yo correlate with high level pitching (plug in your high level definition of choice - whether max velocity or next level ball), the statisticians would return in 10 years and say there is no singular marker that predicts success - then go on to say that there are no groupings of markers that predict success.  At some future age, there may be some predictability, but 9yo is a tad early (unless testosterone happens to have already reached that of an 18yo).  Seen a lot of beards on young faces, but don't think I've seen one as young as 9yo yet.

"You know I have no idea what good or average velocity is for a nine year old. Have never gunned a nine year old.  Does anyone know?  I understand that it doesn't really matter, but it would still be interesting.  It would be interesting to know how hard the best 9 year old throws and then see what happens over the next 10 years.  No assumptions, just the facts.... What happened!"

we had a dad with a radar gun around the little league fields, he knew what every kid in the county threw.. If I remember right most of the 9's were low - mid 40's. The main reason I remember is this dad also had a pitching machine and he would be bragging it up that his 9 year old son could hit at 55-60 mph off of the machine. I couldn't understand why , no pitcher we faced ever threw that hard.    His kid turned into a D2 all American, so they were doing something right!

The hardest throwing 9's from that age group that came up with my son are no longer in the game at ages 20-22. One of them did a couple years at a JUCO, then had TJ surgery, the others didn't pitch past ages 15-16.

The 3-4 kids still playing always had great mechanics either on the mound or in the field. But they were never noted as being flamethrowers at 9!

PGStaff posted:

You know I have no idea what good or average velocity is for a nine year old. Have never gunned a nine year old.  Does anyone know?  I understand that it doesn't really matter, but it would still be interesting.  It would be interesting to know how hard the best 9 year old throws and then see what happens over the next 10 years.  No assumptions, just the facts.... What happened!

Also we should remember it is not necessary that everyone pitch.  There are 8 other positions.  Still, good throwing mechanics (not exactly pitching mechanics) are important for everyone.

I remember the hardest throwers being mid-50's from guys (not me) who had guns back when my son was nine. 

hshuler posted:

PGStaff posted:

You know I have no idea what good or average velocity is for a nine year old. Have never gunned a nine year old.  Does anyone know?  I understand that it doesn't really matter, but it would still be interesting.  It would be interesting to know how hard the best 9 year old throws and then see what happens over the next 10 years.  No assumptions, just the facts.... What happened!

Also we should remember it is not necessary that everyone pitch.  There are 8 other positions.  Still, good throwing mechanics (not exactly pitching mechanics) are important for everyone.

I remember the hardest throwers being mid-50's from guys (not me) who had guns back when my son was nine. 

I guess now we're back on track.

InfieldDad.....  

Guess I'm kind of weird when it comes to gathering information or data.  Until we have the data we can't possibly know that it would be meaningless.  We can't possibly know what the statisticians might say. We are left with nothing more than opinions.

I have this problem in believing all information or data can actually be important in some way.  Probably impossible, but if we had a 10 year history on every pitcher or player, I think it would reveal a lot.  I'm not smart enough to know what it would reveal, I just think we might learn something that would be helpful in some way.

Would anyone be interested in knowing what every Major League player did between the age of 9 and 18?  IMO it would just show how many different paths these players took to get there.  If nothing else it might confirm that.  Or possibly it might show that one certain path stands out.

I know, I'm crazy!

Please don't confuse any of my thoughts as taking away from the most important thing for young kids.  I think we all believe the most important thing is simply enjoyment or having fun.  It is hard to beat that at any age, but especially important in the younger ages.

hshuler posted:

PGStaff posted:

You know I have no idea what good or average velocity is for a nine year old. Have never gunned a nine year old.  Does anyone know?  I understand that it doesn't really matter, but it would still be interesting.  It would be interesting to know how hard the best 9 year old throws and then see what happens over the next 10 years.  No assumptions, just the facts.... What happened!

Also we should remember it is not necessary that everyone pitch.  There are 8 other positions.  Still, good throwing mechanics (not exactly pitching mechanics) are important for everyone.

I remember the hardest throwers being mid-50's from guys (not me) who had guns back when my son was nine. 

I second that figure and I gunned a lot at 9.  And every age since.  It really is almost like clockwork 5mph a year.  So the best at ten are 60, 11 - 65, 12 - 70.  These are the BEST of the best.  Go 5mph down from those figures and  those are the really good.  At 13 it starts to get murky.  Some guys put all the muscle development and coordination together at an early age and jump right up to 75 - 80.  Others keep that 5mph pace.  Then at 14 a bigger group 'matures' and get in the 80's.  And once you get to high school its all over the board.  Some kids continue that methodical accent.  Some guys gain only a few mph their entire high school career and some guys have a huge bump year or even two!  A lot of different road maps.

2020dad posted:

hshuler posted:

PGStaff posted:

You know I have no idea what good or average velocity is for a nine year old. Have never gunned a nine year old.  Does anyone know?  I understand that it doesn't really matter, but it would still be interesting.  It would be interesting to know how hard the best 9 year old throws and then see what happens over the next 10 years.  No assumptions, just the facts.... What happened!

Also we should remember it is not necessary that everyone pitch.  There are 8 other positions.  Still, good throwing mechanics (not exactly pitching mechanics) are important for everyone.

I remember the hardest throwers being mid-50's from guys (not me) who had guns back when my son was nine. 

I second that figure and I gunned a lot at 9.  And every age since.  It really is almost like clockwork 5mph a year.  So the best at ten are 60, 11 - 65, 12 - 70.  These are the BEST of the best.  Go 5mph down from those figures and  those are the really good.  At 13 it starts to get murky.  Some guys put all the muscle development and coordination together at an early age and jump right up to 75 - 80.  Others keep that 5mph pace.  Then at 14 a bigger group 'matures' and get in the 80's.  And once you get to high school its all over the board.  Some kids continue that methodical accent.  Some guys gain only a few mph their entire high school career and some guys have a huge bump year or even two!  A lot of different road maps.

That's pretty much what I've observed too.   Only I've never done any gunning.  

Certainly something can be said for quantifying observations.  

I was always a stickler for mechanics. I would also say every kid who pitched threw as hard as he could within the constraints of proper mechanics. Sometimes I had to remind kids they were over throwing and getting off their mechanics.

When I coached 9/10 rec the 9s were allowed one inning per week on the mound. The 10s were allowed two. In 11/12s 11s were allowed three innings per week. 12s were subject to my disgression based on their physical growth. While the plan was typically to use a 12 no more than three innings in a game I let them stay in as long as they had a no hitter and were exceeding my pitch counts. I coached LL just before they instituted pitch counts.

In 9u and 10u summer travel I had to be a little more flexible regarding innings. It ticked off some dads of big kids I wouldn't pitch their kids more. I was blamed for not winning some championship because I would throw pitchers more who still had eligibility. Nine innings over three days is absurd for 9s and 10s.

In 11u and 12u travel we were in a Sunday doubleheader league running concurrently with LL. I had to monitor arm use closely between the LL and travel. At eleven and twelve the travel team was fifteen all star prospects from our league.

RJM posted:

I was always a stickler for mechanics. I would also say every kid who pitched threw as hard as he could within the constraints of proper mechanics. Sometimes I had to remind kids they were over throwing and getting off their mechanics.

When I coached 9/10 rec the 9s were allowed one inning per week on the mound. The 10s were allowed two. In 11/12s 11s were allowed three innings per week. 12s were subject to my disgression based on their physical growth. While the plan was typically to use a 12 no more than three innings in a game I let them stay in as long as they had a no hitter and were exceeding my pitch counts. I coached LL just before they instituted pitch counts.

In 9u and 10u summer travel I had to be a little more flexible regarding innings. It ticked off some dads of big kids I wouldn't pitch their kids more. I was blamed for not winning some championship because I would throw pitchers more who still had eligibility. Nine innings over three days is absurd for 9s and 10s.

In 11u and 12u travel we were in a Sunday doubleheader league running concurrently with LL. I had to monitor arm use closely between the LL and travel. At eleven and twelve the travel team was fifteen all star prospects from our league.

IMO every coach should follow this

johnnysako posted:

RJM posted:

I was always a stickler for mechanics. I would also say every kid who pitched threw as hard as he could within the constraints of proper mechanics. Sometimes I had to remind kids they were over throwing and getting off their mechanics.

When I coached 9/10 rec the 9s were allowed one inning per week on the mound. The 10s were allowed two. In 11/12s 11s were allowed three innings per week. 12s were subject to my disgression based on their physical growth. While the plan was typically to use a 12 no more than three innings in a game I let them stay in as long as they had a no hitter and were exceeding my pitch counts. I coached LL just before they instituted pitch counts.

In 9u and 10u summer travel I had to be a little more flexible regarding innings. It ticked off some dads of big kids I wouldn't pitch their kids more. I was blamed for not winning some championship because I would throw pitchers more who still had eligibility. Nine innings over three days is absurd for 9s and 10s.

In 11u and 12u travel we were in a Sunday doubleheader league running concurrently with LL. I had to monitor arm use closely between the LL and travel. At eleven and twelve the travel team was fifteen all star prospects from our league.

IMO every coach should follow this

Add automatic removal from an inning at 30 pitches.

RJM posted:

I was always a stickler for mechanics. I would also say every kid who pitched threw as hard as he could within the constraints of proper mechanics. Sometimes I had to remind kids they were over throwing and getting off their mechanics.

 

Great point. I found early on that one of the best uses for the radar gun was in this area. Once a kid was where I want mechanically, I could gun him and show him the readout. Then I would tell him, "Let one fly as hard as you can. I want you to try and blow up the gun."  Almost without fail, you'd get some wild pitch that was 2-3 mph lower than his previous pitch. It's an important lesson - sheer exertion won't increase your velocity. Trust your mechanics.

I can always tell where my son is by his comments after he throws. At his last event, he came off the mound and told me he didn't think he was throwing all that hard. He said he didn't "feel" it in his arm. PG stats come up and he was throwing 87. That's key. When you can throw your top velocity and it just doesn't feel like you're straining to throw that hard, you're where you want to be. 

PGStaff posted:

You know I have no idea what good or average velocity is for a nine year old. Have never gunned a nine year old.  Does anyone know?  I understand that it doesn't really matter, but it would still be interesting.  It would be interesting to know how hard the best 9 year old throws and then see what happens over the next 10 years.  No assumptions, just the facts.... What happened!

Also we should remember it is not necessary that everyone pitch.  There are 8 other positions.  Still, good throwing mechanics (not exactly pitching mechanics) are important for everyone.

You will get your results PG staff.  As odd as it sounded for PG to be holding 9u-13u tourneys I figured it was for the data. Last year the fastest 9u kid was 65mph!

The problem with 9u kids and pitching is the way travel ball and all star tourneys are structured.  If you make it all the way that can be 5 games in two days.  A typical 9u team has 10-12 kids so there aren't a lot of kids riding the bench at 9u. Let's say each game only goes 4 innings, thats 20 innings for 10 kids to each take 2....or I suppose you could have 5 kids each take 4 innings but do you use those same 5 kids next week?  That is why most 9u teams have most kids pitching.  I certainly wouldn't want a 9u kid on the bench for half the game or more, and I don't think PO's should be an option in third grade....so what do you do?

And thats why I am just fine with talking about 9yo velo.  Wow.  65 at 9?  Thats bringing it.  My son is 5 years removed from that age now and some are still throwing 65!  I would love to watch that little kid throw!

2020dad posted:

And thats why I am just fine with talking about 9yo velo.  Wow.  65 at 9?  Thats bringing it.  My son is 5 years removed from that age now and some are still throwing 65!  I would love to watch that little kid throw!

That "little kid" is probably not so little.  

Here's the reason velocity is irrelevant at age nine. Before puberty a child can be physically plus or minus three years of his chronological age. You could have a hard throwing nine year old in a twelve year olds body. Then you could have a puss throwing nine year old in a six year olds body At fifteen they could be in the same place. Or the little puss thrower may have passed the hard thrower and left him in the dust.

A friend of mine was a 6'4" All American in the SEC. He never dreamed of playing college or pro ball  (and SEC basketball for two years) when he was a 5'6" high school freshman. This isn't the same friend who went from a 12yo pudge to a 6'4" SEC player and a MLBer.

If there is anything I learned between son 1 and son 3 it's that most of this is just not that serious.  I remember seeing parents losing their minds about calls in mid week games and thinking "this is 10/11/12 year old baseball"  Heck, last year my son was upset about something and I asked him if it was going to cost his team the JV state title.  He gave me a strange look and said "Mom, there is no championship for JV baseball".  And I said, "Exactly".

RJM posted:

Here's the reason velocity is irrelevant at age nine. Before puberty a child can be physically plus or minus three years of his chronological age. You could have a hard throwing nine year old in a twelve year olds body. Then you could have a puss throwing nine year old in a six year olds body At fifteen they could be in the same place. Or the little puss thrower may have passed the hard thrower and left him in the dust.

A friend of mine was a 6'4" All American in the SEC. He never dreamed of playing college or pro ball  (and SEC basketball for two years) when he was a 5'6" high school freshman. This isn't the same friend who went from a 12yo pudge to a 6'4" SEC player and a MLBer.

Yup!  I have the same kind of story for a couple of son's teammates who were small for so long and sized up nicely like that and now playing pro ball.  

I kinda of laugh and joke about one of them because his mother was a genetic scientist and sometimes I'd swear she had been slipping him some kind of growth hormone during HS.  

CaCO3Girl posted:

PGStaff posted:

You know I have no idea what good or average velocity is for a nine year old. Have never gunned a nine year old.  Does anyone know?  I understand that it doesn't really matter, but it would still be interesting.  It would be interesting to know how hard the best 9 year old throws and then see what happens over the next 10 years.  No assumptions, just the facts.... What happened!

Also we should remember it is not necessary that everyone pitch.  There are 8 other positions.  Still, good throwing mechanics (not exactly pitching mechanics) are important for everyone.

You will get your results PG staff.  As odd as it sounded for PG to be holding 9u-13u tourneys I figured it was for the data. Last year the fastest 9u kid was 65mph!

The problem with 9u kids and pitching is the way travel ball and all star tourneys are structured.  If you make it all the way that can be 5 games in two days.  A typical 9u team has 10-12 kids so there aren't a lot of kids riding the bench at 9u. Let's say each game only goes 4 innings, thats 20 innings for 10 kids to each take 2....or I suppose you could have 5 kids each take 4 innings but do you use those same 5 kids next week?  That is why most 9u teams have most kids pitching.  I certainly wouldn't want a 9u kid on the bench for half the game or more, and I don't think PO's should be an option in third grade....so what do you do?

For me the answer is easy: I don't let them play travel ball at age 9. But that could be a whole 'nother thread! (this one's already at five pages!)