Velocity

roothog66 posted:

I have also, for years now, been BIG on building up the muscles in the shoulders and the muscles that overlap the ucl. Building these muscles to handle higher stresses and actually take some of the force off of the ucl has been a huge part of any successes I've had and this can be done at younger ages than you might imagine.

Here is a question.  If what you say helps, and we all know that it does, than why after those athletic trainers in college and pro work so hard only to have their pitchers with so many elbow AND shoulder issues?

Aha.  Must be the radar guns.

TPM posted:

roothog66 posted:

I have also, for years now, been BIG on building up the muscles in the shoulders and the muscles that overlap the ucl. Building these muscles to handle higher stresses and actually take some of the force off of the ucl has been a huge part of any successes I've had and this can be done at younger ages than you might imagine.

Here is a question.  If what you say helps, and we all know that it does, than why after those athletic trainers in college and pro work so hard only to have their pitchers with so many elbow AND shoulder issues?

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but I think I do. I have a theory. I believe we do a much better job today than ever before at protecting young arms. We also know so much more about mechanics and conditioning. There is, I believe, a certain genetic factor that is often overlooked. I think some pitchers are just born with joints that can withstand a lot more force for a lot longer time. In the past, pitchers who were not as genetically gifted with strong, efficient ucl's and shoulder ligaments would simply wear out from over use at a much earlier age. These pitchers didn't get TJ surgery. In fact, they probably never even went to the family doctor, let alone a surgeon. they simply pitched through the pain as long as they could and then stopped pitching when the pain was too much. You never heard about these guys, they simply faded away into obscurity. Today, I think we get much more out of young arms and protect them so that they pitch longer before problems come up. Thirty years ago, I believe, many of the young guys we see in the pros throwing in the mid-to-high 90's never would have made it through high school in one piece. Whereas, once, only the genetically superior made it through the grind, today far more pitchers last long enough to make it to the pros.

I would also add that I, as I have for awhile now, question the premise that arm injuries are on the rise. There is no doubt that surgeries are on the rise, but this is not necessarily consistent with a rise in injuries. It's more a reflection on how we treat injuries. Similarly, there has been a very steep rise in artificial heart implantations, but this in no way indicates a rise in heart disease, just a rise in a particular method of treatment.

Throwing a baseball does damage and I think we've come along way in the treatment of arm ailments in the past two or three decades.

I have been on this board for a long time, I have never seen so many people come forward that their sons have issues in HS.  TJS as well as shoulder surgery.

Have they always been there, probably, but it seems that some have the philosophy if my sons arm blows out he will have TJS.

Does anyone know that surgery is surgery, what type of attitude is that. Although I believe in preventative medicine, I dont think that many really think about that until it is too late.

I am a firm believer that ones age or the grade soesnt really determine a whole lot, but rather their biological age.  So for some 9-14 year olds, who are physically immature, do you treat them differently than you would the more physically mature? I think that is where infielddad talks about growth plates etc.  Here is an example, my daughters boyfriends son is 13, looks 10, plays football and lax like he was 17.  Had OSG in both knees. Doc said he did too much for his physical maturity.

Would you say that statement to be true?  I know that this is a little bit off topic but just askin.

2019Dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

I used to take flack from others who wanted me to have him take something off and focus more on control. That wasn't the plan, and still isn't for young pitchers I instruct. I'm not looking to make them strike throwing machines at 9, 10 or 11 who win baseball games. I'm looking to develop them into useable high school and beyond pitchers. Intent to throw hard first and let the control come naturally.

Omigosh, I couldn't agree more with this. From your lips to every LL coach's ears.

What ever happened to the concept that their was no "I" in team?!?!  

If taking 5 mph off helps my son with his accuracy then doesn't he owe it to his team to get the strikes?  You want to practice throwing hard for the sake of throwing hard do that on your own time.  In a game you do what's best for the team not the individual player.

Root, 2019, and 2020....what about the idea of learning control and accuracy and then increase the speed with naturally growing?  How about not putting the "throw as hard as you can" stress on the immature growth plates already prone to damage?

2020dad posted:

Go44dad posted:

2020dad posted:

Go44dad posted:

My 14U pitches today first time this year in an intrasquad scrimmage.  Although I do not have a radar, there are a couple dads who usually do.  I'm really curious to see what he throws.  So is he.  It's not end all, be all, but I'm curious.

I coached a lot at 9, 10yo.  I don't recall velocities being looked at, but really appreciating a kid who could throw strikes.

Good luck to son - hope he lights up those guns!  The control vs. Velo is a separate debate I know.  But some people look at me funny when I say my son's control or lack thereof is not a big concern.  Of course I want him not to walk people but most important to me is #1 velo  #2 batting average against (which I really view as a measurement of movement) and three being able to throw all three pitches.  If his curve ball is sharp but he walks the guy by throwing two in the dirt so be it.  He has a lot of time to learn that release point.  Just throwing that out there - not even sure why Lol!

Son's control is pretty good.  Sometimes it even looks like command. Still strictly fastball/CU.

Hey godad  how did your son do? 

He threw well.  One inning for all pitchers, first time out this season.  He was first up, struck out first two batters on FB's, got two strikes on the third and decided to see how the CU looked.  It looked really good to the batter and he drove through the 5.5 hole.  Then he struck out the next batter on FB's.  Batters were late, so I don't think he would have thrown the change in a real game, but then again he's as intelligent as your average 14 yo boy.  P/C's call their own games.

The radar dads were late, so no velocity readings.  Their first tournament is two weekends off, they play at the Sugar Land Skeeters park (local Indy team).  Nice place.  So nice it's $10 to get in.

It's little league rec ball. Not the World Series.  I'm sure not asking some kid to give up training for his future to help 9 y/ps when a rev league game.  

Just shaking ing my head on that one. 

Teaching Elder posted:

It's little league rec ball. Not the World Series.  I'm sure not asking some kid to give up training for his future to help 9 y/ps when a rev league game.  

Just shaking ing my head on that one. 

I'm going to shake my head that there is a third grader training for his future rather than helping his buddies win their rec game.  Priorities Teaching Elder, priorities.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

It's little league rec ball. Not the World Series.  I'm sure not asking some kid to give up training for his future to help 9 y/ps when a rev league game.  

Just shaking ing my head on that one. 

I'm going to shake my head that there is a third grader training for his future rather than helping his buddies win their rec game.  Priorities Teaching Elder, priorities.

I think she brought up a good point. It's all about what others believe what is age appropriate and I agree. 

I believe in the intent to throw hard. But I also believe in learning to pitch first. You can teach kids how to pitch while winning games. However, I don't believe winning at 9 is the most important thing you need to stress, but in the case of some folks, that's what it's all about.

roothog66 posted:

I would also add that I, as I have for awhile now, question the premise that arm injuries are on the rise. There is no doubt that surgeries are on the rise, but this is not necessarily consistent with a rise in injuries. It's more a reflection on how we treat injuries. Similarly, there has been a very steep rise in artificial heart implantations, but this in no way indicates a rise in heart disease, just a rise in a particular method of treatment.

Throwing a baseball does damage and I think we've come along way in the treatment of arm ailments in the past two or three decades.

Again root we are on the same page.  As I said earlier there were exactly zero TJ surgeries before Tommy John!

CaCO3Girl posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

It's little league rec ball. Not the World Series.  I'm sure not asking some kid to give up training for his future to help 9 y/ps when a rev league game.  

Just shaking ing my head on that one. 

I'm going to shake my head that there is a third grader training for his future rather than helping his buddies win their rec game.  Priorities Teaching Elder, priorities.

Maybe this one just comes down to wording.   What if we said a 9 year old should not vary from his best mechanics possible in order to give his team a chance to win?  Would that make it better than addressing it as training?  I see where the word training was probably not the best but I get what he meant.  In reality anytime we try to teach kids the 'right' way mechanically we are actually training them for their future.  So I do believe its most important for a pitcher to develop good mechanics from early on and throw hard.  Remember good mechanics is how we develop healthy velocity.  When little kids let up to throw strikes they are almost always deviating from those mechanics.  Does that sound any better?

CaCO3Girl posted:

2019Dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

I used to take flack from others who wanted me to have him take something off and focus more on control. That wasn't the plan, and still isn't for young pitchers I instruct. I'm not looking to make them strike throwing machines at 9, 10 or 11 who win baseball games. I'm looking to develop them into useable high school and beyond pitchers. Intent to throw hard first and let the control come naturally.

Omigosh, I couldn't agree more with this. From your lips to every LL coach's ears.

What ever happened to the concept that their was no "I" in team?!?!  

If taking 5 mph off helps my son with his accuracy then doesn't he owe it to his team to get the strikes?  You want to practice throwing hard for the sake of throwing hard do that on your own time.  In a game you do what's best for the team not the individual player.

Root, 2019, and 2020....what about the idea of learning control and accuracy and then increase the speed with naturally growing?  How about not putting the "throw as hard as you can" stress on the immature growth plates already prone to damage?

Just saw this...  some of the same answer I just gave.  Good mechanics = maximum velocity.  Most pitching instructors are in lockstep that you throw hard first and perfect control later.  The problem with going back and forth is having multiple release points and different pace.  When pitchers are more polished later on they learn how to cruise effectively or take something off with grips.  A little kid is not ready for that yet in my opinion although I am open minded that some may be.  I am not  doctor but I can tell you there is  whole lot of disagreement even among the medical community.  But the general consensus seems to be that the little guys can't really generate enough velocity to cause damage.  Its the overuse not the velocity that causes issues.  Again I am sure there are always exceptions.  I donwant to drone on too long here...  but think of all the other things you could do to win 9yo games...  bunts are almost automatic base hits, should they all bunt or learn to swing away?  Beating the ball into the ground is an excellent way to win 9 yo games especially to 3b where it is a tough throw accross.  Running trick plays left and right etc. Etc.  We have discussed some of these things in the past on here.  How is letting up to 'just throw strikes' any different?  When you are hitting let it rip!  When you are pitching let it fly!  If you win you win if you lose you lose.  And while there is no I in team there is a ME! 

Am not sure where the line is being drawn (if any) when one talks about kids "letting up" to throw strikes.  There's a difference between throwing at "maximum effort" and "throwing hard" . . . yes???  And I wouldn't characterize "throwing hard" instead of at "maximum effort" as "letting up."   But if you do, then I'd have to disagree you 2020Dad.

But I fully agree that at these young ages, developing good mechanics is imperative and should be the primary emphasis by the kid's coaches and very important for "healthy velocity."

roothog66 posted:

 It's more a reflection on how we treat injuries. Similarly, there has been a very steep rise in artificial heart implantations, but this in no way indicates a rise in heart disease, just a rise in a particular method of treatment.

 

Actually, it could:

"Chronic illnesses are even affecting kids. A study published in the American Heart Association journal Hypertension in July 2013 found that the risk of children and teens having hypertension rose 27 percent over a 13-year period. Hypertension, or high blood pressure, can lead to stroke, heart disease, and kidney failure."

Pretty clearly some of those on the way up have answers before their sons have reached the ages where the risks truly become manifest.  Many articles contain  information which  talks about the decline in the numbers playing youth baseball but surgeries are on the increase.  To limit the assessment to TJ and UCL ignores the shoulder and labrum injury from which  3 of 4 fail to return to their pre-injury  level of baseball.  I think I have said all I can say into a polarization of opinions. To suggest TJ and labrum and other arm injuries is related to overuse only and not coupled in same way with velocity seems open to major questions and suggests the 82mph and 94mph pitchers at Stanford both suffered from one risk factor.  Oh well?

I can't speak to anyone else's son, and maybe there is something lost in translation here, but my son's mechanics break down when he overthrows.  Which is when he gets wild.  Fortunately he has learned not to do that.  He only threw 82 as a freshman that we have on radar.  I think there was an occasional pitch that went above that. Fortunately for him, 82 as a freshman puts him among the elite in the state of Nebraska in his class.  I am curious to see where he is this year.  We should get a number next week when they have tryouts.  But maybe not.  Their coach likes to gun them on a crow hop and not off the mound.  It might not be until May that we get a number. 

2020dad posted:

 But the general consensus seems to be that the little guys can't really generate enough velocity to cause damage.  Its the overuse not the velocity that causes issues. "

Based on a conversation I had with very experienced sports doctor who has taken care of a LOT of kids of various ages regarding growth plates, that would NOT be an accurate conclusion.  Velocity has a lot to do with how hard a player is throwing and the problems with kid's growth plates and tenons come from over exertion, whether over just a few times or over a longer period.  Throwing at "maximum effort" put young kids at high risk and doing it with poor mechanics magnifies that risk.  This doctor's experience is not the same as some kind of published results of a study, but as much experience as he had, I am confident he spoke with a high degree of credibility for his valuations of the problems.

Truman posted:

Am not sure where the line is being drawn (if any) when one talks about kids "letting up" to throw strikes.  There's a difference between throwing at "maximum effort" and "throwing hard" . . . yes???  And I wouldn't characterize "throwing hard" instead of at "maximum effort" as "letting up."   But if you do, then I'd have to disagree you 2020Dad.

But I fully agree that at these young ages, developing good mechanics is imperative and should be the primary emphasis by the kid's coaches and very important for "healthy velocity."

You said that better than i did.  Thanks for the clarification.  We are 100% in agreement.  

Maybe some of this has to do with semantics -- I certainly don't quibble with Truman's "throwing hard" terminology, and I am in violent agreement with Roothog's statement that "I'm not looking to make them strike throwing machines at 9, 10 or 11."

I'm coaching a LL "minors" (ages 9 - 11) team right now. We have some kids who throw very hard. And we have some kids who throw strikes. Unfortunately, they're not the same kids. The way things will likely go, the kids who throw strikes will pitch more (for all the team reasons mentioned above), but we'll give the hard but wild throwers a shot, too (usually an inning at a time). We are trying to teach intent to throw hard -- heck, intent to swing hard, run hard, play hard -- but we're not trying to turn them into Mitch Williams. We're working on mechanics, too.

My older son had a LL coach who would immediately pull any pitcher who walked two batters in an inning. Every pitcher knew that if he walked a second batter, he was coming out of the game. The coach won a lot of little league games, and I was perfectly happy to have my 11 year old play in the field. The inability to throw strikes avoids a lot of overuse!!

Btw I think you can tell early but you have to consider why they dominate at 12.

There are two kinds of early bloomers

1. Of course the big kids

2. Skill developement 

that one gets underrated. Kids that get a lot of skill training early on can have superior skill and training and this beat out more athletic kids that are less skilled. Same is true for athletic training. A 13u kid that throws 70 just playing catch will have more room to grow than a 13u kid throwing the same speed after doing a lot of arm strengthening or even velocity training.

btw I'm not saying early skill possession is bad you ultimately need it and if you have that out of the way it is good but you can have a head start in skill that beats out more athletic kids.

so if your kid is better because he has very refined mechanical skills and also has pushed average athleticism into good but not great athleticism by intense arm, batspeed and athletic training he might not be able to keep that edge.

All you have to do is teach 9-12 year olds to throw strikes by pitching to contact.  You don't have to do all that other stuff. And you can do that with intent to throw hard. You can even go beyond that and teach them to throw an off speed pitch. That should really suffice to get them to really enjoy being.on the mound.  But for some strange reason people think that a pitcher entering HS needs an arsenal to prepare for HS. Not so.

This discussion isn't new here on the HSBBW. It's been going on for ye And it will continue. The interesting thing is really seeing who ends up where when all is said and done.  So IMO, talk is cheap. When you show me the money I am convinced your way is better.

2020dad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted

What ever happened to the concept that their was no "I" in team?!?!  

If taking 5 mph off helps my son with his accuracy then doesn't he owe it to his team to get the strikes?  You want to practice throwing hard for the sake of throwing hard do that on your own time.  In a game you do what's best for the team not the individual player.

Root, 2019, and 2020....what about the idea of learning control and accuracy and then increase the speed with naturally growing?  How about not putting the "throw as hard as you can" stress on the immature growth plates already prone to damage?

Just saw this...  some of the same answer I just gave.  Good mechanics = maximum velocity.  Most pitching instructors are in lockstep that you throw hard first and perfect control later.  The problem with going back and forth is having multiple release points and different pace.  When pitchers are more polished later on they learn how to cruise effectively or take something off with grips.  A little kid is not ready for that yet in my opinion although I am open minded that some may be.  I am not  doctor but I can tell you there is  whole lot of disagreement even among the medical community.  But the general consensus seems to be that the little guys can't really generate enough velocity to cause damage.  Its the overuse not the velocity that causes issues.  Again I am sure there are always exceptions.  I donwant to drone on too long here...  but think of all the other things you could do to win 9yo games...  bunts are almost automatic base hits, should they all bunt or learn to swing away?  Beating the ball into the ground is an excellent way to win 9 yo games especially to 3b where it is a tough throw accross.  Running trick plays left and right etc. Etc.  We have discussed some of these things in the past on here.  How is letting up to 'just throw strikes' any different?  When you are hitting let it rip!  When you are pitching let it fly!  If you win you win if you lose you lose.  And while there is no I in team there is a ME! 

2020, There has got to be an argument that good mechanics doesn't just equal maximum velocity it equals control as well.  If they were releasing in the right spots and landing with their foot straight, eyes on the catcher then their max effort would result in strikes.  However, I still don't like the max effort concept while their kid muscles and growth plates are so vulnerable.

Before my son played in a 12u PG event his pitching instructor gave him two pieces of advice. 1. NEVER look at the board to see what you just threw, that usually means you didn't finish your pitch correctly. 2. No one important cares if a 12u kid throws 80 or 60, but your team will care if you throw strikes. Don't throw as hard as you can, throw as effective as you can.   If you throw a ball adjust.  If you throw a strike see if you can throw another strike in a different spot.  Keep it easy, keep it calm, pick a spot and think about how to make the pitch cleaner.  He also told my son from day one that max effort is used rarely, maybe two or three times in a game for max effect. My son at 12 had issues due to velocity, not over use, and he hasn't had issues since he started working with this instructor.

In that event I saw some very fast pitching, saw one 12u kid leave the mound in tears holding his elbow, saw multiple pitchers not finishing their pitches because they wanted to get a look at the board, and saw more passed balls and wild pitches than I think the whole year combined. 

Bunts and other small ball tactics have a good chance of working but swinging away for a double/triple/home run is a more effective way to get the larger scoring. Throwing strikes is the more effective way to get an out and or getting the other team to hit so your fielding can do their job, than 5 walks and 10 passed balls per inning.

CaCO3Girl posted:

2020dad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted

What ever happened to the concept that their was no "I" in team?!?!  

If taking 5 mph off helps my son with his accuracy then doesn't he owe it to his team to get the strikes?  You want to practice throwing hard for the sake of throwing hard do that on your own time.  In a game you do what's best for the team not the individual player.

Root, 2019, and 2020....what about the idea of learning control and accuracy and then increase the speed with naturally growing?  How about not putting the "throw as hard as you can" stress on the immature growth plates already prone to damage?

Just saw this...  some of the same answer I just gave.  Good mechanics = maximum velocity.  Most pitching instructors are in lockstep that you throw hard first and perfect control later.  The problem with going back and forth is having multiple release points and different pace.  When pitchers are more polished later on they learn how to cruise effectively or take something off with grips.  A little kid is not ready for that yet in my opinion although I am open minded that some may be.  I am not  doctor but I can tell you there is  whole lot of disagreement even among the medical community.  But the general consensus seems to be that the little guys can't really generate enough velocity to cause damage.  Its the overuse not the velocity that causes issues.  Again I am sure there are always exceptions.  I donwant to drone on too long here...  but think of all the other things you could do to win 9yo games...  bunts are almost automatic base hits, should they all bunt or learn to swing away?  Beating the ball into the ground is an excellent way to win 9 yo games especially to 3b where it is a tough throw accross.  Running trick plays left and right etc. Etc.  We have discussed some of these things in the past on here.  How is letting up to 'just throw strikes' any different?  When you are hitting let it rip!  When you are pitching let it fly!  If you win you win if you lose you lose.  And while there is no I in team there is a ME! 

2020, There has got to be an argument that good mechanics doesn't just equal maximum velocity it equals control as well.  If they were releasing in the right spots and landing with their foot straight, eyes on the catcher then their max effort would result in strikes.  However, I still don't like the max effort concept while their kid muscles and growth plates are so vulnerable.

Before my son played in a 12u PG event his pitching instructor gave him two pieces of advice. 1. NEVER look at the board to see what you just threw, that usually means you didn't finish your pitch correctly. 2. No one important cares if a 12u kid throws 80 or 60, but your team will care if you throw strikes. Don't throw as hard as you can, throw as effective as you can.   If you throw a ball adjust.  If you throw a strike see if you can throw another strike in a different spot.  Keep it easy, keep it calm, pick a spot and think about how to make the pitch cleaner.  He also told my son from day one that max effort is used rarely, maybe two or three times in a game for max effect. My son at 12 had issues due to velocity, not over use, and he hasn't had issues since he started working with this instructor.

In that event I saw some very fast pitching, saw one 12u kid leave the mound in tears holding his elbow, saw multiple pitchers not finishing their pitches because they wanted to get a look at the board, and saw more passed balls and wild pitches than I think the whole year combined. 

Bunts and other small ball tactics have a good chance of working but swinging away for a double/triple/home run is a more effective way to get the larger scoring. Throwing strikes is the more effective way to get an out and or getting the other team to hit so your fielding can do their job, than 5 walks and 10 passed balls per inning.

Actually I think there is no argument.  Every pitching coach/instructor I hope would agree that good mechanics lead to both velocity and control.  Also as Truman expressed better than myself I think we are all pretty much in agreement that max effort for more than a few spots is not desired.  And in fact max effort may be a non helper for even a few pitches.  I have said a lot of times on here I believe every pitch should be thrown hard 'within your mechanics'.  Now where I think we part is this...  obviously when we try to throw hard we will sometimes find it difficult to stay within those mechanics.  The answer is not to throw softer to throw strikes.  And honestly - and yes this is admittedly anecdotal - most of the time it screws up your control even more.  I always told my pitchers to let it fly and let me worry about when it is time for you to come out if you are not finding the plate.  But at young ages it should always be about mechanics.  If you miss the plate one pitch get right back on the horse and try to find it - throwing hard - the next pitch.  If you never find it, live to pitch another say.  No biggie.  Development should always trump winning at that age.  Thats my philosophy anyway.  ANd by the way I couldn't disagree more with the statement that if you miss the zone adjust.  Probably something went wrong.  The only 'adjustment' is to keep repeating your mechanics.  But sometimes we will fail that is part of the game.  The worst thing you can do is say 'I missed low so I will try to release this one sooner'.  Now you are asking for trouble.  

One day me and kid were hitting off the HitTrax and he asked the man if it will tell him how hard he throws and he says yes, instantly I said to him no, we dont care how hard you can throw but he was insistent. So he gets on the mound and fires, 54, disappointed he tries again, 55, I said thats enough, he wants one more try, I said ok, but this time get off the mound and pretend your back in CF and throwing to home, he crow hops, 72. I said there you feel better, your an outfielder and your good at it, now lets get back to hitting.

So, since that day I believe mechanics are all the difference, kid doesn't know how to pitch, never been taught. He's got a big arm and it shows from the outfield, not from the mound. I try and limit his pitching, i figure once he goes through puberty he can learn, is that a mistake? Im not sure if there is a time when its to late, but I also dont want to ruin his arm either. This is all so confusing.

wow.... talking about velo on a 9 yr old..... really ?  I vaguely remember those games.... I remember taking him to dairy queen after and maybe swimming at a friends house.   I remember getting home and my wife asking me where he was and I said I thought you had him, and driving back to the park to find him playing tag with a bunch of kids, to this day he does not know we left him there. 

Never thought about a radar gun.... I was a terrible parent.

 2018 was the 4th son competing daily with 3 older brothers... he could not match them physically, but over time he figured out how to compete , the mental side and how to win.   How to beat his older bigger brothers and their friends.

Never had a pitching lesson.... now as a high school soph hitting 91.....  he has had many a recruiter and scout watch him, and they all say the same thing, the velo is great, the command is great,  but what sets him apart is how he competes.....  we need a compete gun...

johnnysako posted:

One day me and kid were hitting off the HitTrax and he asked the man if it will tell him how hard he throws and he says yes, instantly I said to him no, we dont care how hard you can throw but he was insistent. So he gets on the mound and fires, 54, disappointed he tries again, 55, I said thats enough, he wants one more try, I said ok, but this time get off the mound and pretend your back in CF and throwing to home, he crow hops, 72. I said there you feel better, your an outfielder and your good at it, now lets get back to hitting.

So, since that day I believe mechanics are all the difference, kid doesn't know how to pitch, never been taught. He's got a big arm and it shows from the outfield, not from the mound. I try and limit his pitching, i figure once he goes through puberty he can learn, is that a mistake? Im not sure if there is a time when its to late, but I also dont want to ruin his arm either. This is all so confusing.

Oh no.  You have just opened up the worm can.  You are about to get waylaid with personal opinions that you never asked for, have your parenting skills put into serious question and shamed for caring about how good your kid is at too young of an age.

Keep an eye out for DHR.  You are in trouble buddy!

bacdorslider posted:

wow.... talking about velo on a 9 yr old..... really ?  I vaguely remember those games.... I remember taking him to dairy queen after and maybe swimming at a friends house.   I remember getting home and my wife asking me where he was and I said I thought you had him, and driving back to the park to find him playing tag with a bunch of kids, to this day he does not know we left him there. 

Never thought about a radar gun.... I was a terrible parent.

 2018 was the 4th son competing daily with 3 older brothers... he could not match them physically, but over time he figured out how to compete , the mental side and how to win.   How to beat his older bigger brothers and their friends.

Never had a pitching lesson.... now as a high school soph hitting 91.....  he has had many a recruiter and scout watch him, and they all say the same thing, the velo is great, the command is great,  but what sets him apart is how he competes.....  we need a compete gun...

 

Well, to be fair to the OP, I think he asked a fairly innocuous question about what the average velocity of a nine-year-old pitcher might throw. However, I don't think we've actually been discussing the velocity of a 9yo for several pages now. These threads have a life of their own. I will say, the minute I saw the thread labeled "velocity," I knew that it would have a long life, regardless of the content of the original post.

I actually feel most kids shouldn't pitch from a mound until 13-14. Depends on physical maturity.

No argument here. Don't sweat it.

Teaching Elder posted:

johnnysako posted:

One day me and kid were hitting off the HitTrax and he asked the man if it will tell him how hard he throws and he says yes, instantly I said to him no, we dont care how hard you can throw but he was insistent. So he gets on the mound and fires, 54, disappointed he tries again, 55, I said thats enough, he wants one more try, I said ok, but this time get off the mound and pretend your back in CF and throwing to home, he crow hops, 72. I said there you feel better, your an outfielder and your good at it, now lets get back to hitting.

So, since that day I believe mechanics are all the difference, kid doesn't know how to pitch, never been taught. He's got a big arm and it shows from the outfield, not from the mound. I try and limit his pitching, i figure once he goes through puberty he can learn, is that a mistake? Im not sure if there is a time when its to late, but I also dont want to ruin his arm either. This is all so confusing.

Oh no.  You have just opened up the worm can.  You are about to get waylaid with personal opinions that you never asked for, have your parenting skills put into serious question and shamed for caring about how good your kid is at too young of an age.

Keep an eye out for DHR.  You are in trouble buddy!

You know what they say about opinions...everyone has one.

johnnysako posted:

One day me and kid were hitting off the HitTrax and he asked the man if it will tell him how hard he throws and he says yes, instantly I said to him no, we dont care how hard you can throw but he was insistent. So he gets on the mound and fires, 54, disappointed he tries again, 55, I said thats enough, he wants one more try, I said ok, but this time get off the mound and pretend your back in CF and throwing to home, he crow hops, 72. I said there you feel better, your an outfielder and your good at it, now lets get back to hitting.

So, since that day I believe mechanics are all the difference, kid doesn't know how to pitch, never been taught. He's got a big arm and it shows from the outfield, not from the mound. I try and limit his pitching, i figure once he goes through puberty he can learn, is that a mistake? Im not sure if there is a time when its to late, but I also dont want to ruin his arm either. This is all so confusing.

Not a mistake at all. Many a successful pitcher has followed that very path. However, having said that, I never allowed that on any of my teams at younger ages simply because I never wanted to put the burden on a handful of kids. My thoughts were that if I had a couple of kids unwilling to pitch, then someone else had to put those extra innings on their arm. That was just me, though. It wouldn't be an issue with most coaches because they weren't going to pitch everyone anyway.

TPM posted:

I actually feel most kids shouldn't pitch from a mound until 13-14. Depends on physical maturity.

No argument here. Don't sweat it.

Thats pretty much how I feel, but, as Im sure you know how far a team goes at 12U depends on how many pitchers they have, the more the better. Last year kid pretty much sealed the LL district champ game for team and he is probably 3-5th best pitcher on team but as it goes in baseball, he was their best that day. Its tough for sure, Id rather him not pitch at all, but then again, sometimes he's needed. I guess as long as its limited there's not much risk?

bacdorslider posted:

I see how it got off topic. It always does. But honestly how hard a 9 year old throws means nothing

> On Feb 23, 2016, at 8:49 AM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

No, of course not, but I think a parent has a kid who he thinks throws hard and just wonders "is he throwing hard for his age compared to other kids who 'throw hard?'" I think it's just a natural curiosity. Now, if you take a 9yo and try to make x velocity at 9yo extrapolate to y velocity by high school your just going to be disappointed. It's like the old Robert Heinlein quote: "Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

To say that this topic has gotten so far off course would be an understatement! I could have sworn we were merely discussing what would be best for a 9yr old boy and a Dad to help guide him perhaps in the best interest of his arm and love for the game? We've gone from a 3rd grader scenario to high school in a snap of a finger and now it's just one big muddy thread at best! These are different subjects that warrant their OWN discussions. Too late here now for that but why are we even discussing TJ surgeries now? LOL 

Roothog, I have read your posts on this thread a couple of times and while it appears you may have had some success along the way instructing young men how to properly throw a ball, etc. I can't help but think that your philosophy in WHAT you were focusing on most is just a tad backwards. I know firsthand that if a young pitcher from 6 - 18yrs old for that matter isn't taught proper mechanics FIRST and foremost that his future as a pitcher is nil to none. You don't just come out of the gate telling them to throw hard. Perhaps I misunderstood you and it was merely a parapraxis on your part. If so, then my apologies. My son at 11yrs old could flat throw hard. Where do you think I came up with this nic name on here that I can't seem to change? lol. But my point is, just because he could throw hard didn't mean he could get near a strike zone. Heck, he couldn't even hit water if he fell out of a boat then! 

I'm not even going to touch  your comment on strength training for young kids. I'm not convinced that you can JUST strengthen only particular known muscles without risking damaging growth plates in/around those regions. You just don't mess around with growth plates on young boys. I was at the gym the other day and a Dad was in there with his 7yr old son WEIGHTLIFTING! All I could do was shake my head and bite my tongue. If it had been conditioning, jogging or whatever, fine. But he was just messing with unknown potential problems down the road. Another overzealous Dad. 

Boy, this thread sure took off. My head is dizzing after all of this! LOL

YGD

Teaching Elder posted:

johnnysako posted:

One day me and kid were hitting off the HitTrax and he asked the man if it will tell him how hard he throws and he says yes, instantly I said to him no, we dont care how hard you can throw but he was insistent. So he gets on the mound and fires, 54, disappointed he tries again, 55, I said thats enough, he wants one more try, I said ok, but this time get off the mound and pretend your back in CF and throwing to home, he crow hops, 72. I said there you feel better, your an outfielder and your good at it, now lets get back to hitting.

So, since that day I believe mechanics are all the difference, kid doesn't know how to pitch, never been taught. He's got a big arm and it shows from the outfield, not from the mound. I try and limit his pitching, i figure once he goes through puberty he can learn, is that a mistake? Im not sure if there is a time when its to late, but I also dont want to ruin his arm either. This is all so confusing.

Oh no.  You have just opened up the worm can.  You are about to get waylaid with personal opinions that you never asked for, have your parenting skills put into serious question and shamed for caring about how good your kid is at too young of an age.

Keep an eye out for DHR.  You are in trouble buddy!

Hopefully that  not the case...  but that is just so funny none the less!  Johnny - your son is 14 correct?  Get him some lessons (if you are not confident you can do it yourself) and get him working off the mound.  Doesn't hurt to try.  If I have the age correct 72 positional velocity is solid if not great but its good enough to give pitching a whirl!  At 55 or 56 off the mound there is a long way to go but if you don't try its guaranteed you won't succeed!

"Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

I'm gonna have to use that some time! I like it! lol

YoungGunDad posted:

To say that this topic has gotten so far off course would be an understatement! I could have sworn we were merely discussing what would be best for a 9yr old boy and a Dad to help guide him perhaps in the best interest of his arm and love for the game? We've gone from a 3rd grader scenario to high school in a snap of a finger and now it's just one big muddy thread at best! These are different subjects that warrant their OWN discussions. Too late here now for that but why are we even discussing TJ surgeries now? LOL 

Roothog, I have read your posts on this thread a couple of times and while it appears you may have had some success along the way instructing young men how to properly throw a ball, etc. I can't help but think that your philosophy in WHAT you were focusing on most is just a tad backwards. I know firsthand that if a young pitcher from 6 - 18yrs old for that matter isn't taught proper mechanics FIRST and foremost that his future as a pitcher is nil to none. You don't just come out of the gate telling them to throw hard. Perhaps I misunderstood you and it was merely a parapraxis on your part. If so, then my apologies. My son at 11yrs old could flat throw hard. Where do you think I came up with this nic name on here that I can't seem to change? lol. But my point is, just because he could throw hard didn't mean he could get near a strike zone. Heck, he couldn't even hit water if he fell out of a boat then! 

I'm not even going to touch  your comment on strength training for young kids. I'm not convinced that you can JUST strengthen only particular known muscles without risking damaging growth plates in/around those regions. You just don't mess around with growth plates on young boys. I was at the gym the other day and a Dad was in there with his 7yr old son WEIGHTLIFTING! All I could do was shake my head and bite my tongue. If it had been conditioning, jogging or whatever, fine. But he was just messing with unknown potential problems down the road. Another overzealous Dad. 

Boy, this thread sure took off. My head is dizzing after all of this! LOL

YGD

This is one of the downsides of the internet culture in which we live - theories, methods, etc. all end up having to be boiled down to a couple of paragraphs. So, yeah, I'd say you completely misunderstood my entire concept.

Yes! mechanics are the most important thing at a young age. I've never told a kid just go throw hard. I teach them to throw hard, with a specific intent to do so, within the mechanical set we've developed for that pitcher. Mechanics, and not trying to throw hard, are, in my opinion, the key to high velocity. If you teach a kid to throw with a certain set of mechanics, but only at, say 80%, his entire kinetic chain will develop around the necessity to throw at 80%. If he tries to step it up and throw harder later, he risks completely ruining those mechanics and risking injury because he'll inevitably screw up his timing, fatigue himself easier and from there it goes downhill.

When I talked about building up particular muscles around the ucl I wasn't talking about weightlifting, really. In fact, you should see my kid. He's 6' 4" + / 205 lbs. and can't do more than a couple of pushups. He has no upper body strength. He plays at a school that has historically been HUGE on serious weightlifting for pitchers. Now, this small country school has put four players in the majors, so they assume they're doing it right. However, I don't let my kid lift - at all. The work I'm talking about is done through high reps with small weights and through electrical stimulus. Mostly only bands for the shoulder. Strengthening these muscles can start at an early age and actually greatly aid in not allowing growth plates to be pulled apart as much as they otherwise would.

Now, I do things, admittedly a lot different than other pitching coaches. I have some very different views. For example:

I think long toss is more destructive on the arm than pitching from the mound, so my guys don't long toss.

My guys don't lift weights for upper body. Some core and some leg work. Otherwise just bands and hand weights.

I teach kids the curve at an early age and  encourage them to use it. In my opinion (and I think it is quite backed by the most recent scientific studies), the curve puts far less stress on a young ucl than does the fastball due to a lesser valgus layback angle and I see using the curve a significant (10-20% of the pitches thrown) as a necessary break from the fastball/changeup routine of most young pitchers.

For years, I never worked with anything but high school pitchers until my own son came along. However, I feel I am having a lot of success with hard throwing, injury free pitchers. Most of the kids I had when they were 9-12 year olds who are now high school age are all throwing well into the 80's and all have been completely injury free. Will that last? I truly believe so. However, if they all get to college and their arms fall off, I guess I'll have to rethink my strategies. f...

2020dad posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

johnnysako posted:

One day me and kid were hitting off the HitTrax and he asked the man if it will tell him how hard he throws and he says yes, instantly I said to him no, we dont care how hard you can throw but he was insistent. So he gets on the mound and fires, 54, disappointed he tries again, 55, I said thats enough, he wants one more try, I said ok, but this time get off the mound and pretend your back in CF and throwing to home, he crow hops, 72. I said there you feel better, your an outfielder and your good at it, now lets get back to hitting.

So, since that day I believe mechanics are all the difference, kid doesn't know how to pitch, never been taught. He's got a big arm and it shows from the outfield, not from the mound. I try and limit his pitching, i figure once he goes through puberty he can learn, is that a mistake? Im not sure if there is a time when its to late, but I also dont want to ruin his arm either. This is all so confusing.

Oh no.  You have just opened up the worm can.  You are about to get waylaid with personal opinions that you never asked for, have your parenting skills put into serious question and shamed for caring about how good your kid is at too young of an age.

Keep an eye out for DHR.  You are in trouble buddy!

Hopefully that  not the case...  but that is just so funny none the less!  Johnny - your son is 14 correct?  Get him some lessons (if you are not confident you can do it yourself) and get him working off the mound.  Doesn't hurt to try.  If I have the age correct 72 positional velocity is solid if not great but its good enough to give pitching a whirl!  At 55 or 56 off the mound there is a long way to go but if you don't try its guaranteed you won't succeed!

12 1/2,

johnnysako posted:

2020dad posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

johnnysako posted:

One day me and kid were hitting off the HitTrax and he asked the man if it will tell him how hard he throws and he says yes, instantly I said to him no, we dont care how hard you can throw but he was insistent. So he gets on the mound and fires, 54, disappointed he tries again, 55, I said thats enough, he wants one more try, I said ok, but this time get off the mound and pretend your back in CF and throwing to home, he crow hops, 72. I said there you feel better, your an outfielder and your good at it, now lets get back to hitting.

So, since that day I believe mechanics are all the difference, kid doesn't know how to pitch, never been taught. He's got a big arm and it shows from the outfield, not from the mound. I try and limit his pitching, i figure once he goes through puberty he can learn, is that a mistake? Im not sure if there is a time when its to late, but I also dont want to ruin his arm either. This is all so confusing.

Oh no.  You have just opened up the worm can.  You are about to get waylaid with personal opinions that you never asked for, have your parenting skills put into serious question and shamed for caring about how good your kid is at too young of an age.

Keep an eye out for DHR.  You are in trouble buddy!

Hopefully that  not the case...  but that is just so funny none the less!  Johnny - your son is 14 correct?  Get him some lessons (if you are not confident you can do it yourself) and get him working off the mound.  Doesn't hurt to try.  If I have the age correct 72 positional velocity is solid if not great but its good enough to give pitching a whirl!  At 55 or 56 off the mound there is a long way to go but if you don't try its guaranteed you won't succeed!

12 1/2,

Bottom line, if a kid is being asked to pitch even one inning he should know proper mechanics so he doesn't hurt himself.  Kids with strong arms are asked to pitch.  I was forced to get my 11.5 year old a pitching instructor because he threw hard and he threw wrong and he told me his arm hurt.  I don't feel comfortable telling a coach he can't ever pitch my son.  We can talk about amounts of mound time, but it's not my place to say never.  My son sees his pitching instructor about 2 times a month from March-July.  He isn't on a pitcher speed improvement program or anything crazy in 8th grade, and I'm not asking the instructor to get him to XX mph.  My only words were "teach him the proper mechanics"....after that they talked and I stayed out of it.

It is definitely your place to protect your son in whatever way you feel necessary.   If you don't want him to pitch, a coach should respect that.  Bottom line.