Velocity

It depends on if you're talking about a general population or elite level players.  I don't think anyone has stats on the general population.  It would vary pretty widely anyway.   As far as more elite players the guy has done some research I guess.  http://www.yougoprobaseball.co...should-i-be-pitching

I can't even believe that I am going to respond to this, but here I am. Why  on earth and everything under the sun would anyone be interested or concerned about the velocity of a 9/10yr old pitcher?? What possibly could the velocity of that age matter or that anyone could even notice? I swear I think some parents have TOTALLY lost it sometimes when it comes to their kids especially when it comes to their athletic abilities. Be more concerned about how much fun he's having with his friends or pet dog. And as far as "elite level" 9/10yr old ball players? I couldn't think of a better oxymoron than that. lol

Okay, I feel better now.

YGD

Eric Cressey tweet from 2013:  "Putting a radar gun on a 14-year-old pitcher is the very definition of studying for the wrong test"

Brensdad posted:

for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks

Honestly, there is no way to tell and I wouldn't concern myself with it.  The hardest throwers, biggest hitters, etc. at younger ages can almost always be attributed to physical maturity. I have seen a big stong kid (5'10") throw 70 mph at 11 years-old and still be 5'10" at age 13 and throw 72 mph.  My point is that things don't even out until around 16 years-old so just focus and solid fundamentals and make sure that your kid has fun playing in a positive and healthy environment. 

The best velocity measurements for 9/10 year olds is how fast you let them take time off in the off-season to do anything besides baseball.

This is the HIGH SCHOOL BB Web people.  All of this stuff about 9/10's and "elite" 13/14 travel teams belongs on the Baseball Fever board.

Can we stop with the snotty responses?  The guy just asked a question.  We need to stop reading into people's motives and directing their lives.  

Teaching Elder posted:

Can we stop with the snotty responses?  The guy just asked a question.  We need to stop reading into people's motives and directing their lives.  

@Teaching - Agreed! 

Well lets see, just a question, some of you a little too fired up. There is not one of you who was not curious enough to ask when your 9 year old first started playing competitive ball. So lets just chill out, a simple question as to whether 30 mph is average or 80, or likely in between.

And regardless of what is posted above there is likely some correlation between early velocity and later velocity. No doubt,  not an exact science, but certainly an indication of things to come.

And if you ask why would a person want to know... Well that question could be asked up and down these forums.

MTH posted:

This is the HIGH SCHOOL BB Web people.  All of this stuff about 9/10's and "elite" 13/14 travel teams belongs on the Baseball Fever board.

I guess I have to come back next year!  I think what belongs on here is whatever people want to have fun talking about.  Including 9/10 year old velocity.  Feel free to think its not wise to worry about but if some people want to talk about it what's wrong with that?  To the OP 50mph at 9 is pretty fast.  There we answered his question without insulting him!  That wasn't so hard was it?  Now we can feel free to give him additional advice at which point he can heed it or reject it.  Its a free country.  Just a side note, the kids my son has played with at 9 and 10 who threw hard are the same kids throwing hard at 14!  Now we will see what happens over the next few years.   The high school years!  I will then be able to talk about it on this site legally!

hshuler posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

Can we stop with the snotty responses?  The guy just asked a question.  We need to stop reading into people's motives and directing their lives.  

@Teaching - Agreed! 

Just saw these two responses after making my post...  good for both of you!  Agree or disagree we should be welcoming to new posters.  And every human being deserves some simple kindness.  

I have seen no indication that velo of sub-teens correlates with later velo (e.g., HS velo).

What I did notice is that the "higher velo" sub- teen pitchers got well used - really really well used.

Looking back, my S did begin pitching as a nine year old. He was able to get the ball to the catcher on a fairly regular basis - with a noticeable arc. He did get low keyed lessons from guys who just taught him reasonable form and no breaking pitches. 

 I freely (though sheepishly admit) that I was the dad who bought the cheap radar gun when he was 10. While I now understand how ridiculous it looked - for the first kid going through the baseball process, there was no road map and it can get pretty intense.

Measuring velo doesn't get you anywhere; building enthusiasm, playing catch, hitting grounders and fly balls to your son, and decent low keyed lessons bring big dividends and create wonderful parent/son bonding experiences.

Welcome to the site! We can all be gruff looking backwards in time; but enjoy that first journey; perhaps it's a first step to a decades long family activity!

Brensdad!  Strikes at just about any velocity are great pitches at 9/10.  Play keeps moving, fun for the kids, fun for the parents.  Certainly more skill development when the ball is moving around and in-play.  In most games, the team with the least walks plus the least errors will almost always win the game.

Do heed the multiple posts about not pitching any one kid very much.  Read up and follow ASMI guidelines for pitch counts.  Educate the other parents if you can.   http://www.asmi.org/research.p...on=positionStatement  I am sure there are many parents on this board who would do things differently if they could go back in time.

If you stick around, you will hear this a lot.....Enjoy the Ride!

Some of the kids who threw hard at 9/10 are absolutely still some of the hardest throwers at 14, which is my son's age. As a mentioned in my previous post, some haven't gained much velocity since. Now, that doesn't mean that they won't make a big jump in velocity over the next couple of years. 

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time. A local kid (10th grader) picked up 5-6 mph between last spring and fall and received a D-1 offer. Conversely, a kid who set the velocity record at a 13U PG event at 84mph topped out at 85 three years later. 

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

GOOSEGG - it takes a big person to admit when they were wrong.  By the way, what was his max velocity that first year?

Probably best, when dealing with brand new posters, to draw them in with a little bit of kindness.  Once you get them hooked, then you can begin to explain why your opinion is the right opinion.  As to the comment about the better 10yo pitchers getting used too much - have to agree with that one.  Not sure who it was on this board, but they swear they never let their 10yo set foot on the mound because they knew he would be the best pitcher - but realized it would not be in the 10yo's best interest.

hshuler posted:

Some of the kids who threw hard at 9/10 are absolutely still some of the hardest throwers at 14, which is my son's age. As a mentioned in my previous post, some haven't gained much velocity since. Now, that doesn't mean that they won't make a big jump in velocity over the next couple of years. 

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time. A local kid (10th grader) picked up 5-6 mph between last spring and fall and received a D-1 offer. Conversely, a kid who set the velocity record at a 13U PG event at 84mph topped out at 85 three years later. 

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

 

If you can tell me my son will be at 85 at 16 I will take it right now!

hshuler posted:

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time.

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

 

Add drive, determination and hard work to your variables. Son got tired of hearing about his lack of arm strength. His MPH from SS position improved 16 mph from freshman to junior years of HS.

2020dad posted:

hshuler posted:

Some of the kids who threw hard at 9/10 are absolutely still some of the hardest throwers at 14, which is my son's age. As a mentioned in my previous post, some haven't gained much velocity since. Now, that doesn't mean that they won't make a big jump in velocity over the next couple of years. 

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time. A local kid (10th grader) picked up 5-6 mph between last spring and fall and received a D-1 offer. Conversely, a kid who set the velocity record at a 13U PG event at 84mph topped out at 85 three years later. 

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

 

If you can tell me my son will be at 85 at 16 I will take it right now!

@2020 - Saw a 2020 kid with my own eyes hit 90 last July. Now, obviously this is the exception but super arm talent. 

Ripken Fan posted:

hshuler posted:

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time.

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

 

Add drive, determination and hard work to your variables. Son got tired of hearing about his lack of arm strength. His MPH from SS position improved 16 mph from freshman to junior years of HS.

Good for him! 

Brensdad posted:

for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks

I can't swear by this...this is ONE man's opinion:

http://www.yougoprobaseball.co...should-i-be-pitching

2017LHP.

FWIW (and it was worth a lot then - especially to the parents [including me]) the range was 45 - 60ish in rec ball. Mine was the 45. Could go a bit more in local travel games.

There will be lots of "natural" attrition amongst the players as some lose interest and pick up other sports. Moving to a full field seems to bring about the largest drop. But, there were lots of baseball related arm injuries for those that simply over threw their arms - again looking backwards it's easy to see the reasons (poor mechanics, over use, young elastic arms not able to withstand the load).

It is so easy - and understandable - to get swept up into the maelstrom of youth baseball. And, there is no right formula - every kid is different in what it takes to kindle their fire. I did most of it wrong; some of it right; with a heavy helping of luck. While I cringe at some of the things I did, I wouldn't have replaced any part of the experience. And while I obviously embarrassed my son with some of my antics, I was no worse then the rest of the crazed parents, and now that I am too old to play catch with him any longer, I cherish every moment of every step in his/my/our family journey. For us, baseball - whether it was playing catch everywhere we traveled, learning math by calculating averages, going to MILB and college games, whatever - was the lifelong thread woven into our family tapestry.

Do we have a FAQ board.  This might be a good question to put on one.  PM me your best general answer for "What Should My Kid Be Throwing at Age XX?"  I'll compile a best answer and see it the lady who runs this site will consider doing a FAQ.

Teaching Elder posted:

Do we have a FAQ board.  This might be a good question to put on one.  PM me your best general answer for "What Should My Kid Be Throwing at Age XX?"  I'll compile a best answer and see it the lady who runs this site will consider doing a FAQ.

While I do know that this question gets asked a lot I would be against it being listed as a FAQ question.  Anyone who asks the question needs to have the heaping dose of reality along with legitimate guesses on the answers. 

It's amusing to sit at a 9u game and go "Wow, he pitches fast", it's not amusing to hear a 9u dad say "I read you are supposed to be pitching XX by now so you need to increase your strength training."

Who said it wouldn't touch on matters of reality and safety?  

BTW. I'll run the answer by the board for advice and consent first.

Teaching Elder posted:

Who said it wouldn't touch on matters of reality and safety?  

 

BTW. I'll run the answer by the board for advice and consent first.

I don't believe people read the fine print. I also don't think 9u questions should be in a FAQ section of a High School Baseball site. And last, but not least, I think if we were to post such a FAQ section people would think it is categorically okay to radar 9u kids...which it really isn't. I don't see how any good can come from that.  People can make an argument about gauging if the kid got better and faster but the biggest problem at 9u isn't speed it's simply getting it in the strike zone more than 50% of the time. By the way, I still wouldn't know what my 14u son threw if he hadn't been in a PG event last year where they radared him.

"What Should My Kid Be Throwing at Age XX?"

This question would need to be put into context - should be throwing xx by age yy in oder to achieve zzzzzzzzz - what exactly is the person hoping to achieve - high school varsity (would depend on which state), college ball, D1 ball, SEC/ACC ball, MiLB ball, MLB ball, HOF ball?  I really truly think the minimums for ages up through 14 would need to be artificially low.  Would also need to include a modifier for physical maturation (maybe something about his facial hair - does he shave twice a day or twice a year) - makes a huge difference.  I really think this is an impossible task and the true minimums for most ages would be so low as to be meaningless.

For a 14yo, I would want to know does he have good mechanics and can he throw inside consistently.  At 16yo, much of the same, needs decent velocity, but also want to know how he gets outs - I will again give a shout out to Trackman as I really think it will help at younger ages identify pitchers who are able to get easy outs with balls in play - how many truly weak grounders does he force.  Throw in a few strikeouts along with a decent sample size abd you start to get a feel for effectiveness outside of pure velocity.

I'm noting your concerns about radar readings for young people in the statement.

Brensdad posted:

for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks

if you want his arm to last a long time, get him off the mound!!! the coach will blow his arm out .. just my 1.5 cents

I know my 10U son throws harder than anyone on his team. Probably harder than all but 1 or 2 kids in the entire league.

Now if he could just manage to throw the ball in the strike zone he would be ready to drop out, get his GED , and do a couple years at a JC so he will be ready for the draft by the time he is 13 or so.  He's tired of playing with these less talented players, so it's time for him to move on to a team where everyone works at hard at his craft as he does.

I know it seems a bit much but this kid sleeps, eats, and dreams of nothing other than making the MLB.  He's a truly dedicated, elite level player. 

Rob T, my kid is the EXACT SAME WAY!  If any scouts or recruiters want in early, here is some video of him bringing it!  If it wasn't for "rules" he would be varsity right now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI004CYz_lM

We have been down this road so many times before...  I still don't and never will understand how people can be so judgemental based soley on opinions and anecdotal evidence.  Do any of you have hard evidence that gunning a 9 year old brings about Armageddon?  and why do you care so much what other people do?

I guess it's a fair question but i really don't know why it matters? Your kid could be out of the game next year or more likely,  when the dimensions change to regulation.....enjoy it while you can and slow down. 

Teaching Elder posted:

Can we stop with the snotty responses?  The guy just asked a question.  We need to stop reading into people's motives and directing their lives.  

TeachingElder, thanks for posting your comment.  I credit the parent of a younger kid to come on our site; available information to help guide them from youth travel clubs to prepare for competitive HS baseball, and when to initiate the recruiting process.  

I initially came on this site as an observer, about 8 years ago, when my oldest was 10.  I was quickly able to gain perspective about competitive travel baseball and how to help my sons further their interests in competitive baseball.  The HSBaseballWeb board helped me be an asset to my boys baseball, and this site definitely helped keep me in check.  

The posters question is similar to my brothers concern just last week. My brother & his 8yr old are surrounded by a few gung-ho parent coach's talking pitching velocity, and using it as a method of cutoffs for making team rosters at the 8-9 year old level.  What a joke.  If a kid is that much bigger and skillful than the others, you let him play up where he's capable. Keep it simple.

I told my brother to find baseball organizations that focus on age appropriate development, and age appropriate coaches.  Keep it fun, play multiple sports, and keep going on family vacations.

(trying to write this while on a conference call won't happen again).... apologies if any disjointedness (word?)

Enjoy your Friday & good luck to all the college first season games!

2020dad posted:

 Do any of you have hard evidence that gunning a 9 year old brings about Armageddon?  and why do you care so much what other people do?

I don't know why you need to bring meteors and Bruce Willis into the conversation.

2020dad posted:

We have been down this road so many times before...  I still don't and never will understand how people can be so judgemental based soley on opinions and anecdotal evidence.  Do any of you have hard evidence that gunning a 9 year old brings about Armageddon?  and why do you care so much what other people do?

@2020 - I've found over the last several years that what SOME people say on a public forum and what actually happens are sometimes polar opposites. 

Brensdad;

do you have the phone # for your local Sports Psychologist and Dr. Andrews.

Please throw away the radar gun!!

ENJOY & STUDY THE GAME.

Bob

How hard should a 9 y/o be throwing?  As hard as he (or she) can, and still throw strikes without getting hurt.  Throwing hard at that age is not about hitting a number on a radar gun, but about developing the intent to throw hard, which will be important later.  The actual velocity is immaterial - by the time a 9 y/o is 17, eight years will have passed.  Publishing a chart showing how hard pre and early teens "should" be throwing will only cause some parents to panic needlessly.  As many other posters have emphasized, so much will change during those crucial developmental years.  When he turned 15, my son was topping out at 78.  Two years later he is 90+ and headed to a Power 5.  No clue where he was at 9 back in our neighborhood little league.

It is totally understandable that you want to see if your kid is average or above average but as my 2016 RHP starts his senior season, I can only say that there are so many unknowns and even more variables that you can't even think about right now that there just isn't a good answer on these types of questions. My son didn't throw hard at all until HS but he worked his butt off and did more than any other kid I know to get better and put himself in a position to be successful. He's now throwing in the upper 80's, (hopefully hits 90 this spring/summer) and will be playing D1 ball...I bring this up not to take a victory lap but to just tell parents of younger kids to just let them play and see if they bring their own passion to the game. Year after year, kids will quit playing for a variety of reasons and those that are the most dedicated (and talented) will not be dissuaded by their lack of velocity, size, weight, etc. They will outwork their competition and hopefully they stay healthy and are able to play at the next level if that is what they want to do.

Just enjoy the ride. There are not absolutes on velo at that age...And anyone who tells you that there are is just speculating...

It's too hard to label how hard a particular pitcher should throw at nine or ten. Prepubescent kids may be physically plus or minus three years of their chronological age. In the big picture, in our travel games the bigger, stronger kids threw in the 50s. 

Those bigger stronger kids fell into three categories: 1) They remained bigger, stronger kids as they reached puberty, 2) They toasted their arms before age thirteen from pitching too frequently, and 3) They drifted from the game as they weren't the bigger, stronger kids post puberty.

At nine and ten the focus should be on proper mechanics. No one is going to remember who the preteen flame throwing stars were. There should also be a focus on not pitching too much.