My 14U pitches today first time this year in an intrasquad scrimmage. Although I do not have a radar, there are a couple dads who usually do. I'm really curious to see what he throws. So is he. It's not end all, be all, but I'm curious.
I coached a lot at 9, 10yo. I don't recall velocities being looked at, but really appreciating a kid who could throw strikes.
Johnny I think you are spot on. EVERYBODY'S OPINION is important. Unless we are talking about something measurable that can be proven - for example the old hit the too half of the ball... if you think that will produce balls in the gap you are just plain wrong. There is no room for opinions on that. But this is clearly an opinionated topic.
RJM,
I never gunned 9yo games - but I don't have an issue if somebody does - its just fun. I did get a pocket radar and start gunning when my son was 10 so pretty much the same thing. We (yes me AND him) have a blast between games walking around gunning kids who look like they are throwing hard. Especially if we get one of his friends at a new high its exciting. Now he is 14 and we still gun with that same PR (darn thing won't break to give me an excuse to get a ball coach!) Truth is I rarely gun my son because I am pacing while he pitches. Now some may run with that statement - yes I get very nervous when my son pitches. He hates that I don't gun him like I do others. I am very familiar with injuries halting promising careers at every level. I did coach a long time so I most certainly do have an idea. We don't do lessons. We have done probably less than a dozen over 5 years. Last couple years none. Not that it matters we just have to draw the financial line in the sand somewhere. If I had the money he very well might go to somebody. As for travel - its fun! We don't take family vacations. We travel for baseball and swimming. We wouldn't have it any other way. Like a bunch of mini vacations. What will I say when velo stops? If its a plateau (oddly enough we are kind of in one) here is what I did. I think you may actually like this! Watched some video of when he was 11. I told him I really miss those days. Wish we could go back and start all over. Told him we are putting the gun away for a while and I want him to go back to being that 11yo and just have some fun for a while and we will pick up with the measuring later. When velo stops permanently? I try to prepare him mentally all the time. He still believes in his heart he can make it to his dream school. This in a way breaks my heart because I think he is in for a huge letdown. I keep telling him to be open minded. What if you can play for a great D3? Tell him we are going to find time to see some Whitewater games this year. Ask him what if its football? The reality is the sport may choose you rather than the other way around. So as for how I will feel during recruiting... you must have a lot more confidence in my son than I! I am not sure there will be recruiting. Thats the goal. Thats what we are working towards. And I don't want to poor mouth either, I do think chances are good he will be recruited at some level but definitely not a certainty. What do I care about? Being welcoming to folks here and having a lot of fun talking baseball. I have no objections to disagreements and exchange of differing ideas - thats great. But when it turns to I know an you dont. And I am right and you are wrong. Or my ultimate pet peeve when I perceive some sort of moral high ground. And note I said perceive because I do not have a window into a mans soul. Hopefully I addressed all your questions.
Go44dad posted:My 14U pitches today first time this year in an intrasquad scrimmage. Although I do not have a radar, there are a couple dads who usually do. I'm really curious to see what he throws. So is he. It's not end all, be all, but I'm curious.
I coached a lot at 9, 10yo. I don't recall velocities being looked at, but really appreciating a kid who could throw strikes.
Good luck to son - hope he lights up those guns! The control vs. Velo is a separate debate I know. But some people look at me funny when I say my son's control or lack thereof is not a big concern. Of course I want him not to walk people but most important to me is #1 velo #2 batting average against (which I really view as a measurement of movement) and three being able to throw all three pitches. If his curve ball is sharp but he walks the guy by throwing two in the dirt so be it. He has a lot of time to learn that release point. Just throwing that out there - not even sure why Lol!
2020dad posted:Go44dad posted:My 14U pitches today first time this year in an intrasquad scrimmage. Although I do not have a radar, there are a couple dads who usually do. I'm really curious to see what he throws. So is he. It's not end all, be all, but I'm curious.
I coached a lot at 9, 10yo. I don't recall velocities being looked at, but really appreciating a kid who could throw strikes.
Good luck to son - hope he lights up those guns! The control vs. Velo is a separate debate I know. But some people look at me funny when I say my son's control or lack thereof is not a big concern. Of course I want him not to walk people but most important to me is #1 velo #2 batting average against (which I really view as a measurement of movement) and three being able to throw all three pitches. If his curve ball is sharp but he walks the guy by throwing two in the dirt so be it. He has a lot of time to learn that release point. Just throwing that out there - not even sure why Lol!
Son's control is pretty good. Sometimes it even looks like command. Still strictly fastball/CU.
Brensdad posted:for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks
1) It doesn't work that way (scaleable year by year increases).
2) It doesn't matter and you shouldn't care. And I mean that in complete seriousness. Performance at 9-10 is a precursor for nothing. Let your boy pitch if he loves having the ball and competing. You should be far more interested in his attitude on the mound and his ability to solve his own problems. To me, the kids that get in trouble and continue to bear down are way more projectable than those throwing 50+ at 10 years old.
hshuler posted:The gun is a distraction for younger kids.
The kids first PC (at about 9/10) was an ex MLB who had to leave the game because of an injured arm. Toward the end of practice he would always bring out the radar gun. Yeah the first couple of time it was a big deal. You know what, after a few lessons it was like "oh, the radar gun, yawn".
So he'd have them throw in steps 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% (or crap your pants hard). Know what the kids found out, that a lot of the time the velo at 100% was lower than 90, or sometimes even 80. That's a great lesson going forward for kids that age. As they got older he used it to show the difference in velo between pitches, and yes, to see how they were progressing.
So I see the radar gun as a tool. Like any tool I guess it can be misused, but I just didn't see a problem.
At some pro ball fields they have booths where one can pay to throw a ball and see how fast they're throwing. There are other places you might see such a booths, like a county fair or some amusement park and you'll find kids (and parents) spending money there to see their throwing velocity that they can have some fun. So yes, getting feedback on how hard you throw and how you might compare yourself to someone else can be great "fun" for many at any age. But for the young' kids we're talking about, I simply don't see any value in it other than for the fun of it. The measuring of velocity just doesn't become otherwise important until HS age.
There is a lot of wisdom on this board for those who are interested in hearing it. Many on here are trying to keep us from making the same mistakes they did and come from a place of sincerely wanting to help. Hopefully, we'll take heed to good advice.
Well said HShuler.
SomeBaseballDad posted:hshuler posted:The gun is a distraction for younger kids.
The kids first PC (at about 9/10) was an ex MLB who had to leave the game because of an injured arm. Toward the end of practice he would always bring out the radar gun. Yeah the first couple of time it was a big deal. You know what, after a few lessons it was like "oh, the radar gun, yawn".
So he'd have them throw in steps 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% (or crap your pants hard). Know what the kids found out, that a lot of the time the velo at 100% was lower than 90, or sometimes even 80. That's a great lesson going forward for kids that age. As they got older he used it to show the difference in velo between pitches, and yes, to see how they were progressing.
So I see the radar gun as a tool. Like any tool I guess it can be misused, but I just didn't see a problem.
The guy had to leave the game due to injury. So if he was really a good pitching coach, knew about working with youth pitchers, he would be teaching the basics, not treating them like they were professionals.
Absolutely it is a great tool, but only if used for the right purpose.
That's the point that people are trying to get across.
TPM posted:SomeBaseballDad posted:hshuler posted:The gun is a distraction for younger kids.
The kids first PC (at about 9/10) was an ex MLB who had to leave the game because of an injured arm. Toward the end of practice he would always bring out the radar gun. Yeah the first couple of time it was a big deal. You know what, after a few lessons it was like "oh, the radar gun, yawn".
So he'd have them throw in steps 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% (or crap your pants hard). Know what the kids found out, that a lot of the time the velo at 100% was lower than 90, or sometimes even 80. That's a great lesson going forward for kids that age. As they got older he used it to show the difference in velo between pitches, and yes, to see how they were progressing.
So I see the radar gun as a tool. Like any tool I guess it can be misused, but I just didn't see a problem.
The guy had to leave the game due to injury. So if he was really a good pitching coach, knew about working with youth pitchers, he would be teaching the basics, not treating them like they were professionals.
Absolutely it is a great tool, but only if used for the right purpose.
That's the point that people are trying to get across.
Good lord.....
His point to the kids was, you don't have to throw as hard as you can to pitch effectively. That if you are say 65 at 100% and 63 at 70 (and you might be surprised how many were 63 at 100% and 65 at say 80) that 3 mph isn't going to make that much of a difference. And how many pitches can you throw at 100% vs 70. Skip to the present and the kid was at 87-89 end of summer. In PBR's comments about him they note "regular effort" on the mound.
My son also noted it was nice to see the correlation between effort and velo. Some kids, even young kids, aren't as stupid as most here would assume they are. But maybe the biggest impact using the gun had was how quickly the kids became indifferent to it.
Kyle Boddy posted:The best velocity measurements for 9/10 year olds is how fast you let them take time off in the off-season to do anything besides baseball.
Lot of likes you got there KB. 
tres_arboles posted:Brensdad posted:for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks
1) It doesn't work that way (scaleable year by year increases).
2) It doesn't matter and you shouldn't care. And I mean that in complete seriousness. Performance at 9-10 is a precursor for nothing. Let your boy pitch if he loves having the ball and competing. You should be far more interested in his attitude on the mound and his ability to solve his own problems. To me, the kids that get in trouble and continue to bear down are way more projectable than those throwing 50+ at 10 years old.
Great point. The mental side of the game is so overlooked at young ages. I used to assure my son there will be better fielders behind him when he gets older. But they will still make errors. In high school he told fielders to shake it off if they appeared flustered by an error.
RJM posted:tres_arboles posted:Brensdad posted:for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks
1) It doesn't work that way (scaleable year by year increases).
2) It doesn't matter and you shouldn't care. And I mean that in complete seriousness. Performance at 9-10 is a precursor for nothing. Let your boy pitch if he loves having the ball and competing. You should be far more interested in his attitude on the mound and his ability to solve his own problems. To me, the kids that get in trouble and continue to bear down are way more projectable than those throwing 50+ at 10 years old.
Great point. The mental side of the game is so overlooked at young ages. I used to assure my son there will be better fielders behind him when he gets older. But they will still make errors. In high school he told fielders to shake it off if they appeared flustered by an error.
I so agree with the mental aspect. My middle son can throw hard. Really hard. But he loses it if he gives up a couple of hits or walks. Or makes an error. He has a lot of physical tools but the mental aspect is just not there. He ended up concentrating on football and will play at a nice D3 in the fall.
As far as radar guns would you believe I've never seen one on my kids? 3 boys with the youngest now a sophomore and while I know that at baseball camps and tryouts they've been gunned I've never seen one in a game. To be fair, there was only one season of varsity baseball between the older 2 due to injury and concentrating on football. I would expect that this year we will see a radar or 2 with the youngest playing varsity. But zero at the youth levels. We've been very lucky I guess.
I would love to know when people think things DO matter. And I think every age is a precurser for something. There are kids that are so bad at 9 you can clearly see they will never be an athlete. And then there are the 9 year olds who are smooth and athletic and the son of a former pro ballplayer and you can see right off they are going to be good. The difference is you can really only eliminate the obvious and predict future success for the standouts. Then with each passing year you can get a little more accurate with your projections. But to say you cant tell ANYTHING from watching young kids... well I just can't agree with that. But all that is not really the point is it? The point is the guy just asked a simple question about what is a good velocity f Ir a 9 year old. We can't say it doesn't matter cause it matters to him. That's all that really matters. When I was that age I threw as hard as I humanly could. There were exactly zero radar guns in those days. I fail to see any negative impact a radar gun can have. In fact I can't wait to try what somebaseballdad was talking about. Next time I am with my son throwing a side I am going to have him climb that ladder from 70% to 80% etc. See where his top velo really lies. It may well be at 100% and it will not be a useful excercize... then again what if we learn something that makes him more effective? That radar gun will certainly be a great tool won't it? Oh and by the way son has struggled for last three years to find a change up grip that is more than a few mph slower than his fastball. He has finally found one and with good movement too. One guess how we know this change is 8 - 10 mph slower than fastball...
You can see possibilities when kids are preteens. It guarantees nothing. You can then look at the athleticism in the family, or lack of to further consider the possibilities. But still nothing is guaranteed. And kids of athletes aren't always athletic. As a friend (an All American in the SEC, high draft choice, made it to AAA) said, "I think my wife polluted the family athletic gene pool." Sometimes an athlete comes from a family you wonder how the hell it happened.
Even after having talent there's motivation, work ethic, attitude, staying healthy, girls, cars, jobs, alcohol, drugs, academics, other sports that can all get in the way.
i started hearing "You won't have to pay for college" in three sports by the time my son was seven. I smiled, thanked the person and walked away chuckling thinking, "He's freak'n seven." Given family history I knew it was probably a matter of just wanting it. But it's a long journey to college ball with a lot of distractions.
Excerpted from an interview with noted surgeon Dr. James Andrews:
PD: What advice would you give pitchers, in general?
J.A.: 1. Use proper mechanics. The No. 1 problem in any specific sport is improper mechanics.
2. Don't play year-round.
3. Avoid the radar gun at a young age. Don't try to overthrow. A lot of kids are 13 years old and checking the radar gun. That's going to get you in trouble. The radar gun makes you want to throw harder than you are capable of throwing. http://tinyurl.com/bg7wu2p
Excerpted from a second interview with Dr. Andrews
“I think they should outlaw the radar gun,” he said. “Young pitchers, coaches, scouts and parents put so much emphasis now on throwing hard that these kids are hurting their elbows and their shoulders because they're trying to throw 90 mph.”
The radar gun, Andrews said, is one of many injury risks at the youth and high school level in an age of baseball that is seeing more and more teenage athletes on the operating table instead of the pitching mound. http://tinyurl.com/835pef6
Excerpted from an article by Dr. Andrews.
Risk – Radar Gun
Young baseball players should not concentrate on their velocity. This is promoted by a dad’s radar gun in the backyard or by a coach putting a radar gun on a young pitcher which promotes a pitch velocity beyond their safety margin. Young baseball players in the Little League age groups have an underdeveloped Tommy John’s or elbow ulnar collateral ligament, and it is easy to redline that ligament if they are over throwing with a radar gun. http://tinyurl.com/zc8s775
I don't really see anything wrong with wondering how fast a kid throws. Even at 9. And I agree that you can see the extremes. But there is a lot of projection going on, especially at those ages. On my son's 9 year old team the kids who were considered to be the studs were not necessarily the same kids who were the studs at 14. Some were, some weren't. And there is really no rhyme or reason as to which kids stayed on the trajectory and which fell off.
One thing I have seen is that the most athletic kids aren't sticking with baseball. Once they hit high school they start concentrating more on football or basketball. I'm sure the availability of scholarship money for those sports is part of that appeal.
As an aside, I'm not criticizing parents for however they want to handle their child provided it isn't harmful to that child. I have been criticized for taking my son to a pitching coach starting at age 8. Why would I do that? Because we had just taken our oldest in for surgery for a torn labrum. His doctor attributed his injury to improper mechanics. You can bet your sweet patootie that I wanted to make sure the other boys were taught the right way from the start if they wanted to pitch. Now, his private coaching consisted of about 3 visits to teach him the mechanics and drills to teach him muscle memory. We go back every year for anywhere from 2-5 lessons before the season starts to make sure he hasn't picked up bad habits, introduce a new pitch, or whatever it is that he needs to work on. And then he might go back in for a 'tune up' visit during a break in the season. Some people think we are crazy. I think I'm a mom with a kid who hasn't been injured(knock on wood) and who doesn't have a sore arm after throwing. That is more important to me than other people's opinions.
MTH;
thank you for this report. Dr Andrews is a friend and his "words" are to be listened to.
"You only have one arm" opportunities begin at 15 not 9 years old.
Bob
"founder of the Area Code games" and International Goodwill Series event
What John Smoltz has to say about kids, radar guns, and parents who think he's from Mars:
Step 1: abolish the radar gun from use at youth tournaments.
Smoltz went public with that appeal last week at the Youth Sports Health Symposium in Windermere, Fla., saying the use of radar guns encourages kids to throw with maximum effort before their bodies are developed enough to handle such stress.
“And doctors tell me that’s a big reason for the increase in Tommy John surgeries,” Smoltz said by phone after the symposium. “Kids are exerting too much force and the ligaments can’t handle the force at such an early age.”
At the big-league level those surgeries have become the bane of the sport, as more and more young stars — from Matt Harvey to Jose Fernandez to Zack Wheeler — blow out their elbow ligament.
But apparently that’s nothing compared to what’s happening at younger age levels. Dr. James Andrews, the famous surgeon, was quoted last year saying that overuse injuries to youth pitchers have increased “seven to 10-fold” since 2010..........
“There are a lot of factors involved and there’s no easy fix,” Smoltz said. “But it has to start somewhere. I have parents coming up to me all the time, telling me how hard their 12-year-old is throwing, based on the radar gun.
“A lot of the parents have these cameras with built-in radar guns. They all think they have the next Matt Harvey. I’m all for dreaming and there’s no doubt you can do things to increase your ability. But too many parents think they can manufacture a superstar, and it just doesn’t work that way.
“More is not better. Kids shouldn’t be throwing year-round, especially in high-stress situations in these national showcases. I hate it because I feel like some kids are being robbed of the greatest years of their lives, but when I try to explain that to parents, some of them look at me like I’ve come down from Mars.” http://tinyurl.com/hr6957e
2020dad posted:I would love to know when people think things DO matter. And I think every age is a precurser for something. There are kids that are so bad at 9 you can clearly see they will never be an athlete. And then there are the 9 year olds who are smooth and athletic and the son of a former pro ballplayer and you can see right off they are going to be good. The difference is you can really only eliminate the obvious and predict future success for the standouts. Then with each passing year you can get a little more accurate with your projections. But to say you cant tell ANYTHING from watching young kids... well I just can't agree with that. But all that is not really the point is it? The point is the guy just asked a simple question about what is a good velocity f Ir a 9 year old. We can't say it doesn't matter cause it matters to him. That's all that really matters. When I was that age I threw as hard as I humanly could. There were exactly zero radar guns in those days. I fail to see any negative impact a radar gun can have. In fact I can't wait to try what somebaseballdad was talking about. Next time I am with my son throwing a side I am going to have him climb that ladder from 70% to 80% etc. See where his top velo really lies. It may well be at 100% and it will not be a useful excercize... then again what if we learn something that makes him more effective? That radar gun will certainly be a great tool won't it? Oh and by the way son has struggled for last three years to find a change up grip that is more than a few mph slower than his fastball. He has finally found one and with good movement too. One guess how we know this change is 8 - 10 mph slower than fastball...
@2020 - I agree that each parent should try to do what's right for their child. There is more than one way to skin a cat...and many different paths to success...but no guarantees.
I can think of two sons of former major league catchers in my area who were both dominant players when they were younger. One is still dominating and the other is not playing anymore. I am not saying that you can't see talent and athleticism but again, it's hard to predict the future.
My son has a pretty decent arm (gunned at PG event) but I am careful because he has had some minor arm trouble. His doctor said that it's always the harder throwers that are in his office. He also said that they can sometimes generate more torque than their growth plates can handle. So he's averaged throwing around 20 - 25 innings over the last several years. I may be overly cautious because I know three kids who've had separated growth plates - one requiring surgery. The radar gun nothing to do with their injuries but they all threw hard.
Personally, I can't see the value of gunning a kid at nine but others here have given examples of good experiences. I still wouldn't do it but I don't claim to have all the answers. I do firmly believe that you can't tell predict future success from 9 year-old performance. So, I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one.
2020dad posted:I would love to know when people think things DO matter. And I think every age is a precurser for something. There are kids that are so bad at 9 you can clearly see they will never be an athlete. And then there are the 9 year olds who are smooth and athletic and the son of a former pro ballplayer and you can see right off they are going to be good. The difference is you can really only eliminate the obvious and predict future success for the standouts. Then with each passing year you can get a little more accurate with your projections. But to say you cant tell ANYTHING from watching young kids... well I just can't agree with that. But all that is not really the point is it? The point is the guy just asked a simple question about what is a good velocity f Ir a 9 year old. We can't say it doesn't matter cause it matters to him. That's all that really matters. When I was that age I threw as hard as I humanly could. There were exactly zero radar guns in those days. I fail to see any negative impact a radar gun can have. In fact I can't wait to try what somebaseballdad was talking about. Next time I am with my son throwing a side I am going to have him climb that ladder from 70% to 80% etc. See where his top velo really lies. It may well be at 100% and it will not be a useful excercize... then again what if we learn something that makes him more effective? That radar gun will certainly be a great tool won't it? Oh and by the way son has struggled for last three years to find a change up grip that is more than a few mph slower than his fastball. He has finally found one and with good movement too. One guess how we know this change is 8 - 10 mph slower than fastball...
I think things matter as soon as they pick up a ball. Some will argue that nothing matters until HS, I dont agree, with each stage of youth ball to me its all equally important. Ok, that tournament in 11U or the LL All Star District Champs at 12U doesnt mean anything for HS but to those kids at that age it means the world. Isnt that what drives them to the next stage?
I know of 12U kids today who were the absolute studs at 9-10U and they are just average today, I know of the below average to average 9-10U kids who are now standouts at 12U. To me, I take it for what its worth, today. Your just really never going to know until the great equalizer hits everyone, for some thats 7th grade for others its 10th or 11th.
I found out that the other kid (genetic freak family, who's older brother blew out his arm in HS), also blew out his arm and no longer pitches. Too much focus on velocity at a young age and the arms fell apart.
Radar guns DO NOT cause arm injuries.
Brother Smoltz, they didn't have radar guns readily available when we were growing up. Only the cops had them. I was never gunned in a game or at practice or anywhere else. Did I throw any softer because there was no radar gun? No way! All I wanted to do was dominate the other guy, and there was no way he was getting any less than my best stuff. No 70%, 80%, etc. He was getting the juice.
Did I throw with pain? Sure did. Did I end up injured? The upcoming MRI will tell just how bad it is. Did the radar gun cause it? Come on!
Throwing a 5 ounce sphere in a manner that one's arm was not designed to while experiencing pain causes injury. A big kid with a big arm and not the bodily maturity to handle it will experience pain. A little kid whose thrown 6 innings and played three games at short or catcher will experience pain. Kids who have not had the chance to rest adequately during the year will experience pain. Over use and throwing with pain is the problem. Not the radar gun.
Radar guns give feed back for what's already occurring. Are they necessary at a 9 y/o game? Of course not. But the problem is not what its doing to the kids, but how silly parents look sitting behind home plate gunning 9 y/os.
My son's 9 y/o program gunned kids at tryouts - first year of kid-pitch - in order to spread big arms out across all of the teams. Did my son hear the guy call out his speeds? Yes. Did he come home with a UCL injury? Nope. Has he ever had an injury. No sir. I told him that if he ever had pain to stop throwing. And I asked him regularly about it. Fortunately, he's never reported pain for more than a couple of throws.
FWIW: Radar guns provide objective feed back. Some guys look like they are really throwing it, but aren't any faster than another kid who doesn't appear to be. Guns take away the hype that surrounds certain kids and the daddy glasses that we all wear and bring in a dose of reality. My son's high school coaches have one pitcher that they adore. But he seems to get hit a pretty good bit and can't get strike outs anymore. Still has lots of hype though because of what he's done in the past. The Pocket Radar was a great eye opener for them when they saw that this guy threw 75-76 mph while two sophomores sat around 77- 78 and both hit 80. Hype goes away and objective decision making comes in.
Arms have been blown out for years, decades. We are simply aware of it now. How many TJ surgeries were there before Tommy John? Zero of course. Back then it was a 'sore elbow' and many were never the same. I doubt there are any more injuries now than there ever where. Now thankfully we can fix at least some of them. And overuse? Back in the day there was no such thing!
OK, No doubt in my mind kids should not be throwing competitively year around.
There are many things that we can blame for all the TJ surgeries these days.
Over use
Lack of recovery time
Poor mechanics
Poor coaching
Poor conditioning
Bad playing conditions
I could add many more things.
A few years ago I Was at a Legion World Series. There were scouts with radar guns there. The starting pitcher in the championship game was pitching in his third consecutive game. After a few innings he was laying in a heap on the mound clutching his elbow. Later we learned he needed TJ surgery. Should we blame it on the radar guns?
Whenever I read names like those mentioned above, Harvey, Fernandez, Wheeler I know we (PG) had them at our showcases. However, we also had Greinke, Gray, Sale, Bumgarner, Kershaw, and many others who seem to stay healthy.
The one thing that is hard to find would be the star pitcher that never attended a showcase. Just check the first round every year. More importantly will we ever find a Professional pitcher or high level college pitcher that has not pitched with radar guns around.
I know this topic was about 9 year olds, but now it has included older players. The only constant has been the blame on the radar gun. If that were really true, why would MLB scouting departments and College baseball programs be Stalkers biggest customers other than police departments.
I am a big fan of Smoltz, but I would like to ask him a question. When you were young did you ever throw the baseball as hard as you possibly could?
Some claim the problem is trying to throw harder than you can. Really isn't that exactly how you throw as hard as possible. Bottom line, it is impossible to throw harder than you can. But due to the radar gun many find they throw with better velocity when they don't use maximum effort.
Most everyone knows that there are more pitchers throwing higher velocity than ever before. To me that is the #1 reason for more TJs. Simply more stress on the elbow. Everyone knows that TJ surgery has been mastered to the point that most pitchers return at a high rate. It has become a better option than it was years ago. Just like knee and hip replacements have greatly increased.
So as long as decision makers covet high velocity, pitchers are going to throw with high velocity. The radar gun has nothing to do with that, it simply tells you the velocity. It can tell you if the pitcher is throwing mid 90s or mid 50s. I doubt if those pitchers throwing mid 50s are filling the operating tables. As modern medical procedures get perfected, they become much more common. Are there that many more bad hips these days.
Even High velocity alone isn't the big problem. The biggest problem by far is misuse. Too many pitches, not enough rest or recovery time, people willing to risk someone's arm. We hear of many cases of abuse every year. We have seen it much more often in high school games than in high level Travel Baseball where good teams have several good pitchers.
The solution is to educate as many people as possible. PitchSmart is a great program for starting this process. Stop the abuse! Quit blaming something that isn't even on the field.
Here's a question for the group: do youth pitchers' arms generally hurt them? I'm not talking about MiLB and MLB, or even college, but, say, ages 11 - 17.
I'm of the opinion that their arms shouldn't hurt -- if they do, something is wrong (overuse, mechanics, etc.).
2019Dad posted:Here's a question for the group: do youth pitchers' arms generally hurt them? I'm not talking about MiLB and MLB, or even college, but, say, ages 11 - 17.
I'm of the opinion that their arms shouldn't hurt -- if they do, something is wrong (overuse, mechanics, etc.).
Last spring, my then 11U pitched for the first time that season, his arm hurt the next day but never again there after, it was in tricep area. I try and let him pitch very little, Id say he see's the mound maybe 10-12 times a year, sometimes its for an inning, sometimes for multiple, it really just depends, one time he threw 75 pitches in a game, it was all stars, he was pitching well and he said he felt fine. Im on the fence with the whole youth pitching issue, so I try and limit it. If he even hinted his arm hurt i would shut him down.
Look, the radar gun is simply a tool. Kids will always throw their hardest. We knew who the hardest throwers were when I was a kid and we all tried to increase velocity. There has always been a focus on velocity with pitchers. This didn't only come about with the first use of a radar gun for baseball.
When I was a pitching coach for high school we used one on a limited basis (this was the early 90's). I bought my first gun in the early 2000's and used it for a variety of uses depending on the age. I gunned a lot of kids at the young ages for no other reason than curiosity. I also thought I could use it to determine what kind of velocity we were seeing from other pitchers and try and adapt our BP pitching to match. That didn't really work out all that well. I would also gun all of our younger pitchers at the beginning of the year and then a couple of months later to measure development. For kids 13 and up, Every bullpen was gunned. In all of my years of coaching pitchers, I have always focused on learning to throw with velocity. This was always done within a particular mechanical set; one that I thought best represented durable, yet efficient mechanics. I started then paying close attention to high speed video of pitchers who threw hard and separating them by durability. I found, as have others, basic similarities in many of the pitchers who were injury prone and a separate set of similarities in those who had long careers pitching with high velocity. I simply copied some of the mechanics of the latter and avoided those of the former.
The radar gun became a major point of emphasis with my son by the time he was 12 or 13. Mechanics tweaked to improve velocity and then measured in hard, objective terms through the radar gun. Even as early as nine, the emphasis was velocity. He didn't get abused in youth ball (8-12) for a couple of reasons. First, I was his coach and could control it and, second, he threw hard, but was wild. A lot of walks and wild pitches made it hard to use him too much. I used to take flack from others who wanted me to have him take something off and focus more on control. That wasn't the plan, and still isn't for young pitchers I instruct. I'm not looking to make them strike throwing machines at 9, 10 or 11 who win baseball games. I'm looking to develop them into useable high school and beyond pitchers. Intent to throw hard first and let the control come naturally. Many of my young pitchers were flame throwing wild guys at a younger age, but the control almost always comes by high school. I've had a lot of success with this methodology. I haven't seen many kids who focused on control at a young age at the expense of velocity suddenly find a lot of speed by high school. Many of those guys still have good control and are good HS pitchers, but they aren't next level material. That's my experience. Over the years, I've had a couple of my kids in the pros, a few in college and a lot in high school. As far as I know, not one has had any significant arm trouble.
Today, almost every pitch my son throws is gunned by someone and I get a lot of use from the information.
Finally, I want to address overuse. Note that Andrews preaches against the use of the radar gun, throwing breaking pitches early, and attending showcases. If you look closely at what he says, you'll see that much of what he believes is based on one very true notion; better pitchers (those with velocity and those who master the curve at an age where batters can't hit it) are much, much more at risk of being overused by overzealous coaches. Those three things won't put a pitcher in harms way at all unless parents don't use common sense and advocate for their young pitchers. It's got to be up to parents, not pitch counts or ASMI recommendations, to protect young arms from abuse.
Great post root. Was talking to a friend whose kid played on another team. Had the control conversation. I told him I didn't much care about walks. Throw hard and don't get hit hard and I am happy. No doubt control helps win games but doesn't do much to build the pitcher's future unless of course it is the holy grail - control with velocity.
roothog66 posted:I used to take flack from others who wanted me to have him take something off and focus more on control. That wasn't the plan, and still isn't for young pitchers I instruct. I'm not looking to make them strike throwing machines at 9, 10 or 11 who win baseball games. I'm looking to develop them into useable high school and beyond pitchers. Intent to throw hard first and let the control come naturally.
Omigosh, I couldn't agree more with this. From your lips to every LL coach's ears.
Go44dad posted:2020dad posted:Go44dad posted:My 14U pitches today first time this year in an intrasquad scrimmage. Although I do not have a radar, there are a couple dads who usually do. I'm really curious to see what he throws. So is he. It's not end all, be all, but I'm curious.
I coached a lot at 9, 10yo. I don't recall velocities being looked at, but really appreciating a kid who could throw strikes.
Good luck to son - hope he lights up those guns! The control vs. Velo is a separate debate I know. But some people look at me funny when I say my son's control or lack thereof is not a big concern. Of course I want him not to walk people but most important to me is #1 velo #2 batting average against (which I really view as a measurement of movement) and three being able to throw all three pitches. If his curve ball is sharp but he walks the guy by throwing two in the dirt so be it. He has a lot of time to learn that release point. Just throwing that out there - not even sure why Lol!
Son's control is pretty good. Sometimes it even looks like command. Still strictly fastball/CU.
Hey godad how did your son do?
PGStaff posted:
Even High velocity alone isn't the big problem. The biggest problem by far is misuse. Too many pitches, not enough rest or recovery time, people willing to risk someone's arm. We hear of many cases of abuse every year. We have seen it much more often in high school games than in high level Travel Baseball where good teams have several good pitchers.
I have to agree 100% with PFStaff here.
As I've mentioned before, I never really paid any attention to just what velocity my son was throwing until high school. Velocity, in terms of the actual numbers, just wasn't important to me. I just wanted son to thrown hard, but not so hard that he didn't have control or that it hurt. And as I coached him (along with other youth players), I never emphasized "maximum effort" for throwing as it just wasn't as important as accuracy . . . particularly at these younger ages. The old adage that "you cant teach velocity" I feel is very applicable to kids at these young ages. So why make velocity any kind of issue for them. Practicing "throwing hard" with proper mechanics is so much more important the whatever the velocity might actually be. Some kids "throwing hard" will produce high velocity and other kids "throwing hard" will not.
As a parent of a young talented kid, I was ignorant regarding much of the issues concerning "misuse" and "recovery time" and didn't oversee what was going on with my son and his coaches as closely as I should have to guard against son's exposure to these things. So, there were a couple of times I could kick myself in the rear end for my own lack of prudence. Here's two instances:
First travel team son was on (not an elite team, about 11 years ago), had a typical weekend long tournament and on a Saturday his team had two consecutive games. He was the top player/pitcher on the team and started for the 1st game that chilly morning at 8 a.m. He pitched the whole 7 innings with no problem and they easily won the game. For the game immediately afterwards, they wanted to keep his bat in the game so they put him at the catchers position. I didn't think anything of it in terms of more throwing as he's never had any soreness or issues with his arm before. I and others marveled at his performance at catcher (SS is where he always played) as he threw out several runners attempting to steal. His team won that game too and as we walked back to our car in the parking lot we were talking about the fun of it all and I was complimenting him on his performances in the two games he then simply mention "a little" soreness in his arm. The next day and the following couple of week his arm continued to have soreness that just wasn't going away even with several days of rest. I took him to a good sports doctor to have it looked at. After the exam and looking at the x-rays, the doctor said there was nothing seriously wrong and the the soreness was probably the result of overuse and proceeded to educate me about such for young players he often sees and the issue concerning growth plates as kids this age mature. Son was really bummed out about the doctor's recommendation of not throwing AT ALL for 3 months, which meant for the rest of the season. So, that's what we did. But. . . . he was allowed to swing a bat so for those 3 months he DH'd only as he tried to convince the coach he could play by throwing with he other arm (NOT!).
Then there was the time when son was on an elite 14u team pitching in a competitive tournament when he started the game but only pitched two innings because he was having problems with control/command. After the game he and I were talking and he said he didn't know what was going on with his arm as his arm just "felt funny". At the moment, I couldn't think what might be wrong. Then later in that same evening it struck me. . . DUHHHHH!!! The game wasn't until late in the day and he was board, so I took him that early afternoon BOWLING (an activity we hardly ever do). Yup, a whole different set of muscles were used and tired and I, the parent, just didn't give a first thought to any consequences for his performance in that evening's game. There was no injury from the bowling. But as his father, I felt pretty stupid for not thinking what kind of strain we were putting on his arm. And I felt I let down his team too since they were counting on his pitching that tournament.
Since the time he had a sore arm and had to lay off baseball for 3 months according to doctors recommendation, I've come to understand how a parent really needs to care for their kid as their young body needs to mature properly. If there's an emphasis on velocity (as we often see from various sources) that results in constant throwing at "maximum effort" and/or not enough rest or recovery time, young players that have the talent can easily have their dreams dashed. Parents need to be particularly vigilant about caring for their young kids health as they involve them with coaches and trainers to advance their skills.
I dunno fellas. I coached little league too (and senior league in our area ages 13-15.) Seemed to me my responsibility was to every player on the roster for that season to help them be a better player or pitcher (or both) and to compete, have fun and have some chances to win. I have also talked a fair amount with another poster on here who has a son on a 40 man roster and another in Milb and we seem to share similar perspectives, although his came from Pony as opposed to Little League.
Having a 9-12 pitcher throw hard but without any control was problematic (to be polite). I had one who threw really hard and without any consistent release point. Everyone else got bored, fielders would be standing on their heels, picking grass, etc, the game had no tempo and the chance for any quality of play was at a minimum. Before anyone says I don't understand, I do. When I was 12 (long time ago) I still remember my little league coach not letting me throw hard, which I could, because he wanted "control." I hated doing one and not the other, but hitters seemed to love it. 
I was not out to develop a 9-11 year old as useable HS pitcher. ( In fact the one pitcher in our little league I thought was going to be a wonderful HS pitcher and beyond ended up with growth plate issues and never pitched in HS). Personally, I think emphasizing mechanics can combine with velocity, without "throw as hard as you can" in ways which make a 9-12 year old better and makes the team experience also better. I never, for once, thought I needed to get everything all at once out of a 9-12 year old. It was a series of building blocks for me. I never for once thought I was coaching one kid or our son. We drafted 12 and my coaching responsibility was to each of them and all of them, for that season, so they had a great time and ended up a better player/pitcher and team. Having pitchers throwing their max velocity, knowing the goal of outs was problematic, was not the way I did it.
Nothing I am reading would lead to me change my thinking. BTW, nothing I am reading seems to accept the growth plate risk for some of these 9-12s which is pretty darn important, in my view.
Probably just me or a problem with message board communications, but this perspective of adults who parent or coach 9-12 year old's on a team doing things to intentionally project into the future (beyond that season) is foreign.
Infieldad . . . I'm with you about all that. Note, I mention growth plates too. . . and I actually feel it's a BIG issue.
One of the problems is how the recruiting schedule has changed. My son, for example, only got to really take two months (really more like 7 weeks) off this year because there were certain events in December and January he just had to attend. Mostly it was bad planning on my part. I should have had him on a different summer team. As it was, he was on a very good 19u team and they played in some high profile games, but not necessarily ones that were suited to him. Most of his games were scouted by JC's, DII's filling out next year's rosters, and mlb scouts. They could care less about a 2018 no matter how good he was. They needed talent ready to go next year. So, come December he got in front of a number of D1's through a "camp," and, in January attended a PG tourney to get his profile up and put up a big velo number. Without those things, he would still be unknown. However, better planning could have gotten those tasks accomplished in the summer allowing him more time off. I'll do better next year. Unfortunately, because of the schedule of college recruiters, it's hard for high school age pitchers to take the time off they really need. If you are seriously chasing the D1 dream, you play HS season, roll that into the summer, then you're showcasing yourself right through to Jupiter in late October. That leaves very little time before needing to gear up again for the HS season. This is one reason I would like my 2018 to be committed not long after the PG Jr. Nationals in June. That leaves him the next couple of falls to be more choosey about the schedule.
infielddad posted:I dunno fellas. I coached little league too (and senior league in our area ages 13-15.) Seemed to me my responsibility was to every player on the roster for that season to help them be a better player or pitcher (or both) and to compete, have fun and have some chances to win. I have also talked a fair amount with another poster on here who has a son on a 40 man roster and another in Milb and we seem to share similar perspectives, although his came from Pony as opposed to Little League.
Having a 9-12 pitcher throw hard but without any control was problematic (to be polite). I had one who threw really hard and without any consistent release point. Everyone else got bored, fielders would be standing on their heels, picking grass, etc, the game had no tempo and the chance for any quality of play was at a minimum. Before anyone says I don't understand, I do. When I was 12 (long time ago) I still remember my little league coach not letting me throw hard, which I could, because he wanted "control." I hated doing one and not the other, but hitters seemed to love it.
I was not out to develop a 9-11 year old as useable HS pitcher. ( In fact the one pitcher in our little league I thought was going to be a wonderful HS pitcher and beyond ended up with growth plate issues and never pitched in HS). Personally, I think emphasizing mechanics can combine with velocity, without "throw as hard as you can" in ways which make a 9-12 year old better and makes the team experience also better. I never, for once, thought I needed to get everything all at once out of a 9-12 year old. It was a series of building blocks for me. I never for once thought I was coaching one kid or our son. We drafted 12 and my coaching responsibility was to each of them and all of them, for that season, so they had a great time and ended up a better player/pitcher and team. Having pitchers throwing their max velocity, knowing the goal of outs was problematic, was not the way I did it.
Nothing I am reading would lead to me change my thinking. BTW, nothing I am reading seems to accept the growth plate risk for some of these 9-12s which is pretty darn important, in my view.
Probably just me or a problem with message board communications, but this perspective of adults who parent or coach 9-12 year old's on a team doing things to intentionally project into the future (beyond that season) is foreign.
Don't get what I've said wrong. I liked winning as much as the next coach. However, it can all be done as a package. On my teams, everyone pitched by team rule and I had plenty of guys who weren't on the high velocity track. They were never going to be hard throwers, but could win games. It's also not as simple as "throw as hard as you can." With the right mechanics (and what that means differs a little from kid to kid), a kid can be throwing hard without feeling like he's straining his hardest. With my son, it's always been a pattern of peak velocity increases as control fades a little. This is followed by his "sitting" velocity catching up to peak velocity and control focusing in. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Note, too, that over the past few years, I've coached rec players as well. My entire coaching and instruction method changes with these type of teams.
I have also, for years now, been BIG on building up the muscles in the shoulders and the muscles that overlap the ucl. Building these muscles to handle higher stresses and actually take some of the force off of the ucl has been a huge part of any successes I've had and this can be done at younger ages than you might imagine.
Another part of the equation is making sure that your son feels no pressure from you or his coach about being honest about how he is feeling. I've heard about kids who were sore and didn't communicate (for various reasons) that to coaches and ended up causing more harm. In one instance, the coach pulled a kid who was crying in the dugout from pain and the dad was telling the coach he was okay to continue. This same dad also tried to tell the coach that he was cleared by a doctor when he wasn't.
My son was a little sore after a doubleheader scrimmage on Saturday and was scheduled to throw about 40 pitches yesterday. He told me that he would see how it felt after warming up and ended up letting his coach know that he was sore and didn't pitch.
He got no pressure from his coaches (who are outstanding men) or me about pitching. Honestly, I could care less if he ever toed the rubber again but he enjoys it and is okay at it.
I don't see any use for radar guns before puberty. Post puberty I don't see a problem using them as long as the pitcher is pitching his game and not pitching for a velocity number. This means the pitcher is ignoring or unaware there's a radar gun present.
in reference to another post we had a kid throwing 75 mph in LL anywhere between the pipes. This kid just wouldn't take instruction. I couldn't fix him. In all stars he threw a no hitter with 15 K's, 7 BB's and 5 HBP. This was before pitch counts. The manager was an idiot about toasting arms. The kid's arm was toast before high school.
My son had to catch this kid during the season and all stars for two years. He had the black and blue marks to prove it. When they were elimated in states my son tossed down his equipment and said, "Thank God! I'll never have to deal with that #%$& again. No one else could be that wild." He became a full time shortstop in 13u.
For the record, I never said that radar guns are a reason for injury or TJS. Come on guys, we all know that there are things that are worse, and that injury is not caused by one thing and absolutely overuse can be the main culprit. I think that most feel, like I do and for me, I have never has changed my opinion that radar guns are not necessary until they reach HS.
One thing that I want to point out, and you guys can take whatever you want from it.
The whole idea should always be to get through youth ball and HS without injury. Its a fact that youth and HS pitcher injuries (lets leave out MLB) are on the rise and we also know that injury is often ACCUMULATIVE. And we all know that it's true that guys that throw harder usually have more issues.
Nothing worse than being courted by coaches and your player goes down, in most cases its like you have the black plague. Ask anyone who has been through it.
I am sorry, but I see a lot of obsessing from some over velocity and early commitment more than I ever have in all the years I have been here. Things have changed in recruiting, and yes for MLB you DO have to throw pretty hard to get attention, that's how it is these days, trust me I know.
But your sons haven't even reached HS yet!
ROOTHOG, I appreciate how hard you work on these types of issues, the study you give them and the efforts you make to apply them to the players and pitchers you coach or work with.
Perhaps one difference in our perspectives is looking at things on the way up vs looking back. I don't discount in any way the feedback you are providing from the players you are working with. However, as to 2018's and 2019's for instance, my perspective is a player is just "beginning" to enter the phase where the wear and tear of throwing a baseball for the prior 6-8 years (other than growth plates) can begin to "manifest" especially in the elbow and/or shoulder. That is the challenge about the "insidious" nature of "overuse" is that it does not apply equally to each player or pitcher and seemingly not at all to some. As an illustration, Stanford had 2 pitchers reportedly with UCL damage in the 2015 season. One is a pretty big hard throwing righty who did not look at all challenged at 94mph well into games. The other is a not as as big soft tossing left (82mph max pretty much) sustained at that velocity throughout.
While some challenged the Stanford coaching staff, my perspective is each probably came about from a number of years of use and I don't know anything to suggest overuse. My point is throwing a baseball is a risk factor for elbow and shoulder issues. More throwing seems to logically increase that risk factor, especially more throwing from ages 8-15 or so when ligaments, tendons and plates are more fragile and susceptible. More throwing or throwing harder or toward max velocity (this is where guns come in) from ages 8-15 combines with all of the above as another and additive risk factor. More throwing and throwing harder toward max velocity, during the ages 8-15, in my view is another additive risk factor.
Of course there is not specific medical proof in terms of a single publication to support the above but a lot of my work involves analyzing and understanding cumulative wear and tear on different body parts. My personal perspective and I believe what Dr Andrews, Fleisig and others are communicating is the the cumulative impact of throwing on developing elbows and shoulders between ages 8-15 begins to became manifest at ages 16 and up. That is the reason I continue to advocate "cautionary" words to those with sons ages 8-16 on this board who tend to think it won't be my son or my son never complains of pain. I hope every one makes it through that way.
However, my view is those players/pitchers are just entering the phase where the risks of the prior 8-10 years can manifest. It will in some, it won't in some and the patterns won't be equal. Pounding one's chest in defiance before our son's are 19-22 years old as some (not you) do on this site leaves me uneasy, so I post notes of caution.
