Velocity

Velocity -

Here's my opinion for what it's worth.

• You need a long toss program that stress long toss in stages both going out and coming in. Arc points are very important and bouncing the ball to the teammate isn't as important.
• You DO have to plan a time span off from throwing. Dr. Jobe has stated so in so many articles that I'm going to listen to him. I bet he knows more about injuries than I do. Just guessing of course.
• Core strength is one of the most neglected areas when it comes to devleoping velocity. It isn't so much the weight room as it is plyometrics etc. where you are handling a weight in a fashion that require your core to respond in a given time frame to or near failure. That then strengthens it.
• Video work is essential. My daughter and I just filmed 4 pitching sessions. We have worked on trying to get her a few mphs more. It is amazing when working with her coach how much small things affect the whole picture with regards to velocity.
• Finally, stretching exercises, band work and use of a trainer are very beneficial not only for velocity but to again, protect against injury. That would then require a consistent system that you train/pitch under. Some programs are now avoiding ice. Some... You get my point. Whatever program you are on, it has to be tailored to what is best for you.

All of the above is JMHO!

I have worked with my 13yr old in both Long toss sessions and bullpen sessions. We throw at least 3 times a week and also throw the football around. On his off days he plays basketball for abour 2 hours or so and we also do CORE exercises together. We are forunate to have a gym so wo do light weights with high reps. Nothing more than 5 to 10 lbs. We also focus on leg strength with a bit more weight.

I have seen his velocity jump I would say about 6-7 MPH in a span of 3 months. This was through hard work and dedication. He is ready for the SPRING.....

Set some short term goals and long term goals and good luck!!!

Texan ...

quote:

And what is that threshold for HS, college & pro (respectively)?

Love your question because I believe it addresses the next logical question. I also think there are other factors ... especially at the college and pro levels ... like the pitcher's specialty/role ... starter, long relief, short relief, situational relief, and closer. Some 4th or 5th guys in the rotation at the pro level may not need to have the same (mysterious) 'threshhold' as the #1 guy, and most likely will never have the (mysterious) 'threshhold' of a closer.

With regard to the original questions on this thread ... here is our minor league pitcher son's off season routine: no throwing/pitching for about 6 weeks after his season is done; starts gentle throwing in late October and eventually builds up his long toss program (he ends up at 350-400 feet before he leaves for spring training); running ... lots and lots of running, lifting, conditioning are on the same schedule with the throwing; finally starts throwing a light bullpen in late Nov/early Dec till he is ready to throw live ... which he did this week. He throws his
FB and CU but no slider during this time. He will throw some more live before he heads to ST (early camp starts 2/22 but he will be there even earlier) including an inning in his college alumni game the last Sat in Jan. That is about it.

He concentrates on hitting his spots (he doesn't throw 95) during the off season, and we have seen that his velocity tends to increase over the course of the season ... (but will admit that those last 30 or so innings are pretty tough on him ... he threw 180+ regular season innings in '05 plus 10 innings in post season). I would suspect that pitchers whose velocity increases significantly over the course of the off season have probsbly seen a significant growth spurt ... but that is JMHO

FutureBack.Mom
I actually printed your post to share with my son! Thanks!

"Yes, Miss Landers."

The Beave.

can anyone give me any tips on how to increase my velocity? any help will be appreciated.

s e t p r o.com

I am one who believes that fastballs alone, although both four and two seam, can win games at most levels if you have great velocity AND control; both of which can be developed, but moreso the latter. Before you read the next part of this post, let it be known that I do throw a change-up and curve, and do think they are effective, although this is true as well.

The theory behind off-speed pitches is to keep the hitter of balance, but if you learn to pitch inside and then move around the zone, that will also keep the hitter off balance.

Fastballs alone will not work at higher levels of ball. Or highly competitive ball at almost any age. Add a changeup & you can do fine without a curve, slider, knuckler, etc. But one offspeed pitch is needed in competitive ball.

linear you have a pm.
wartown try the athletic pitcher .com

Alright, let the debate begin after you hear this one. IMO, throwing precedes pitching, that is, if you want to throw harder, you have to work on throwing hard. If you want to throw harder with command, you must practice throwing hard with command. Most people do it backwards-they work on pitching/command hoping that mechanics will take care of stuff/velocity. They feel that 3/4 speed mechanics to work on command will ultimately produce velocity-I say....not a chance. Command is a learned skill-Sandy Koufax was a hard thrower with bad mechanics, and bad command early in his career. In time, after practicing throwing hard, his command came around and he dominated for about 10 years. Randy Johnson is similar. BUT, they did not "just try" to locate. Velocity at every level will get you "in the door".....velocity with command will get you "into the VIP Room"!!!!

Teague

This is an interesting topic worthy of the board's attention because velocity is so very important, as we all know, but cannot be the sole attribute of pitcher that "can pitch".

Location location location w/ command of at least 3 pitches is the ideal attributes I look for in a prospect.

Last week this was topic of conversation of several scouts. Several examples were brought up about flame-throwers who were drafted simply by the "numbers" on the stalker guns who lacked the above mentioned attributes of an ideal prospect. Conversation also included proper mechanics and unique styles.

A pitcher with these multiple attributes gets outs and wins games. Isn't that what it's all about???? Of course we have to figure in the competetion level and so forth, but the great pitchers will come forth and rise to the top.

Shep would rather have pitcher with good projectability and presence on bump. Of course, every pitcher is different and has "own unique style" and mechanics are most times varied. Does he possess confidence and presence? Is he aggressive? Body type? Arm angle? Delivery? Rotation? Toe to heel? Most importantly, enough arm strength? Arm speed? I ask myself these questions and others.

One example that came up that we discussed was a LHP from GA back in early 90's who had to completely re-invent his arm angle and delivery after signing. Had some success but point was made by one scout that a pitching style is hard to change after a certain period of trained muscle memory. I found that statement profound and agreed with him.

Another example was a pitcher who was wild wild wild but could throw mid-90s stalker, day in and day out, but could never get through an inning without walking multiple batters. What good was his velocity if he had no control or command?? Not much good.

General consensus of group of scouts was a player may have more value with a little less velocity and command of three pitches. Notice the Shep didn't say how much velocity. That is up to each of us how much we are willing to compromise on the stalker.

Golf comparison: Its not how you drive, its how you arrive!!!

Shep cares

quote:

Originally posted by Teague:
Most people do it backwards-they work on pitching/command hoping that mechanics will take care of stuff/velocity. They feel that 3/4 speed mechanics to work on command will ultimately produce velocity-I say....not a chance.

Teague,

I have been teammates with and have known alot of pitchers over the last 30 years or so - yet
I dont think I have ever heard a single one say that they felt that "3/4 speed mechanics to work on command would ultimately produce velocity"

Not a single one of them.

Also - please remember - throwing hard without the proper mechanics will get you into the hospital emergency room.

These velocity discussions drive me nuts. Velocity is KING!!! In order to be successful at the highest levels of course you need more than just velocity, but without it the odds of pitching at the highest levels (i.e. College and beyond) are against you. I'm a prime example of that. I threw low-80's when I was younger and could hit a spot at any time with any pitch. I never walked batters and I rarely got hit hard but I did get hit. Nobody feared my fastball.

You must have velocity to be successful and in my opinion telling young pitchers with dreams of pitching at the highest levels (i.e. College and beyond) to work on other things and neglect velocity development is bad advice.

You want it all - velocity, command, movement, change of speed, etc.

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by FlippJ:

You must have velocity to be successful and in my opinion telling young pitchers with dreams of pitching at the highest levels (i.e. College and beyond) to work on other things and neglect velocity development is bad advice.

You want it all - velocity, command, movement, change of speed, etc.

Jason

I dont see anyone suggesting that kids neglect anything.

In order to work on all of these things - and stay out of the hospital - your mechanics need to be correct first.

And yes - I agree - you want all of the skills.

Velocity is very important. Every team needs hrd throwers but they also need the guys who are offspeed pitchers.
The only issue I have with velocity is that the scouts tend to overlook everything else.
It is annoying to see scouts tripping over hard throwing guys who can't pitch. I have been involved with teams who have 2-3 guys throwing 90 +- and they usually have the worst numbers on the team and it is rare for them to have a good game instead of the other way around.

itsinthegame,

I wasn't necessarily directing my comments at any particular person in this thread, I just wanted to make it clear where I stand on the topic. In most threads discussing velocity there are those that prefer to minimize the importance of velocity while maximizing the importance of the other characteristics that make up the best pitchers in the world. In my opinion all the things I mentioned in my previous post are important, especially velocity, if you hope to pitch at the highest levels.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

Jason

FlippJ,

Not that I was confused, but BINGO on your post!

Seems odd that when someone mentions control, no one speaks up against it's value. When people mention mechanics, breakingballs, changing speeds, poise, location, etc. etc... No one gets annoyed and mentions them as being over rated.

Yet, when people mention the importance of velocity, it always creates this "sort" of hatred for the value of 90+ mphs. "Stalker" will not be going out of business for awhile. Maybe there is something to this velocity!

It takes the entire package, but those expensive radar guns that nearly every scout and College coach lugs along with them, are used for only one purpose.

PG the annoying thing is when you go to a camp and a ptcher throws 90+- and walks hits all the batters. The scouts and coaches are all over him. I have seen this so many times.
That is not to say that all 90+- guys are not great pitchers.
I know lots of scouts that do not carry guns that are more interested in potential and performance.

Flipp,

Agree.

Minimizing any attribute is not a very good idea IMO.

Bobble,

I think there are many more pitchers that can be taught the finer skills of pitching (like movement, control, etc...) than there are pitchers who can be taught how to throw 90+.

Being able to throw with that type of velocity - or greater - is highly coveted - and should be.

IMO.

Bobblehead,

I know lots of scouts who don't carry guns, too. They're usually the Scouting Directors. They get the gun readings from their area supervisors.

If there is a full time scout working for a Major league team who does not use a radar gun... How could he turn in a report? There are no Major League teams who ignore velocity, all together.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Bobble,

I think there are many more pitchers that can be taught the finer skills of pitching (like movement, control, etc...) than there are pitchers who can be taught how to throw 90+.

If that is true, then why aren't the pro ranks staffed entirely by 90+ pitchers? There are enough players who can throw 90+ to staff the entire pro ranks. But yet many pro pitchers don't throw 90+. Hmmmmm. Could it be that the finer skills of pitching are not so easily taught or learned?

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Bobble,

I think there are many more pitchers that can be taught the finer skills of pitching (like movement, control, etc...) than there are pitchers who can be taught how to throw 90+.

If that is true, then why aren't the pro ranks staffed entirely by 90+ pitchers? There are enough players who can throw 90+ to staff the entire pro ranks. But yet many pro pitchers don't throw 90+. Hmmmmm. Could it be that the finer skills of pitching are not so easily taught or learned?

OK, let's pick a middle range, say 87-92. On the extremes, I'm guessing more pitch 92+ than 87-.

Hey Tex-
This is scarry, but you and I agree on this one.

tex,

I read your comment and dont understand how it relates to my opinion.

I never said anything was easy.

I did say that it is EASIER - relatively - to fine tune pitching skills than it is to teach someone how to throw 90+.

Simply put - being able to throw at 90+ is very special. Some people may not want to accept that - but I think it is a fact that the decision makers in MLB seem to agree on.

I agree that eventually a gun comes into play. A scout who sat with me in the TO Skydome said he preferred to watch the pitcher pitch and was looking for all those things they look for which have been listed copiously. He was a NYy scout who said he has been around long enough to tell who has potential and who hasen't.
Again I am not discounting velocity. I am shocked at some of the guys I have seen drafted based on velocity alone.
Control is arguably more difficult to teach than velocity. Being able to control CBs and drop them in for strikes is a very difficult thing and requires great feel and muscel memory.

Texan,

I believe the fine points are equally important and in some cases can be even more important.

Once a pitcher gets to the big leagues the only thing that counts are the results. There are many Big League pitchers who pitch in the upper 80s, but most all of them can and have thrown with more velocity than that.

BobbleheadDoll says...

"a ptcher throws 90+- and walks hits all the batters. The scouts and coaches are all over him."

We actually witnessed a pitcher throwing 93 at the preliminary Area Code tryouts (you know, the tryout to get to the real tryout) who the scouts were all over. He was 6'5" and thin. He was so wild they moved him to the middle of the 2-mound bullpen. He still managed to HIT A SPECTATOR who was sitting a good 30 feet off-center of the bullpen area. It was fun to watch him throw. He sure knew how to clear the area behind and around the bullpen!
And by the way, he did get invited to the next round of tryouts, but didn't make the team. I'm sure he got lots of attention from scouts when he got home. No one would have to work on his velocity or hope he would grow, two things the scouts really seem to value.

Bobble,

Not arguing - but let me give you an example. I am a realist - and will use my youngest son as an example.

This past year - at PG Underclass Championships in Ft. Myers - he had to start the 5th game against the eventual champions - East Cobb Astros.

He had nothing much - velocity - curve - change - just heart and some smarts. He left the game after 4 complete with a 5-3 lead.

He never broke 79 mph.
I can guarantee you that after about 4 readings - noone really cared what he did out there except his team and his coach.

There were alot of kids there throwing mid-80's + - and they are the ones that are going to be looked at first. Period.

Not to put my son down or anything - but I think that is the reality. Velocity is coveted and it is coveted for a reason.

IMO.

Okay, IIG. I must have misinterpreted.

IMHO, some throwers just cannot learn to pitch. Just as some pitchers can't throw 90+. You probably would not disagree with that statement?

And really being a pitcher - as opposed to a thrower - is difficult. Again, I guess you would go along with that.

Bobble, there is no doubt that scouts today are fixated with regards to velocity. But some older scouts feel that this fixation has been detrimental. That there are too many "throwers" getting the opportunity to move up in the system, and that the pro ranks are short on "pitchers'. And the throwers can't cut it.

Sure, ideally a player would be Nolan, Koufax, Johnson or Feller and be a true pitcher throwing 95+. But those are pretty rare.

PG, I think I'm on the same page as you.

quote:

Originally posted by Pirate Fan:
Hey Tex-
This is scarry, but you and I agree on this one.

I definitely agree with you that pitchers should show no emotion. And that showing reactions to perceived bad calls is likely to bring problems with the blue. So how about we agree on that & move on? We'll just agree to disagree on the other issue.

I imagine there are plenty of other areas where we find common ground.

Texan,

Yes - I would agree with both of those points.

itsinthegame,

Thanks for sharing your youngest son's story. By the way, how old is he?

Jason

Flipp,

He is 16 - and was the starting CF for the team. Also used in relief on a regular basis for his team.

I am proud of what he did. He has the "sand" IMO.

Mine just turned 14 earlier this month. I'm thinking about getting him a taste at a PG event the summer after his freshman year (2007). We'll have to see how he progresses though. He's a pitcher/3b/1b/catcher.

Jason

This seems to be a sensible discussion with lots of good points being made, so to continue...

Yes, scouts do love velocity.

No, it doesn't mean the pitcher with the very best velocity is the one any given scout likes the best.

Sometimes, I think scouts are almost ridiculed on here and made to sound like they know very little about baseball. Surely, people don't really believe that... Do They?

Does a scout who reads 90+ on the radar gun, not see that the pitcher can't throw anything close to the zone. Will the scout leave that little detail out of his report?

Does a scout not see the inability to throw other pitches? Does he not notice the terrible mechanics, lack of poise, no movement, etc.? Does he disregard all the bad things and just include the velocity reading in his report?

Well, not for long if that scout wants to stay employed!

Typically, full time MLB scouts have very strong baseball backgrounds. They're hired and payed because some Major League club feels they understand the game and the talent required.

All scouts are not equal, just as all players are not equal, but they do know baseball. It's kind of disrespectful to make them sound like a bunch of "village idiots" who can't think beyond a gun reading.

Hey KC I think I have seen that guy !!

One 6'5" RHP I have known just finished 2 years at a JUCO in Michigan. I absolutely love the kid. When I ask his parents how he is doing they answer that he hasn't killed anyone yet. In 2 years he pitched around 10 innings and huge walk numbers. He is 90+. I have watched him for years since he was around 10. On a rare occasion he gets to the 2nd inning. He pitched for sveral teams my son did and against my son.
I can only remember 1 reasonable game he pitched. He joined a top elite team in Ontario and went to a spring Florida trip. He walked the 1st five batters and they sat him for the rest of the trip. I have seen him over and over do this and worse. He was at the only college camp my son went to last year and he loaded the bases and walked 1 in. At the end of the camp the coaches were all over him. He was also ranked in the MLB draft.
I am not sure where he is now but the coaches have tried everything. The only thing that seemed to help was backing off his velocity.

Flipp,

The event was alot of fun. It wasnt a showcase. It was an underclassmen tournament - and a pretty big one at that.

If your son ever has a chance to go - do it. You will love it.

Even very smart, experienced people can fall prey to certain "mantras", if you will. Happens in business. Happens in sports. Happens in life.

I have sat in a group of scouts & heard them talking about a D1 college pitcher. Kid was big & was throwing in the mid-90's. Needed a rather large adding machine to track his pitch count. And walked more than a few.

The scouts commented on this. And they talked about how he had had control problems since HS. And about how he hadn't made much progress with his control. And that all he had besides his FB was a curve, and the curve didn't get in the neighborhood of the zone very often.

The kid got yanked after a couple of innings. The scouts got up to leave. One of them made the comment that the boy sure was big. Another chimes in "You can't teach size!" Another mentions the gun readings. Another says "95" & whistles appreciatively. And they file out talking about the great prospect.

What conclusion do you draw from this conversation?

The two phases of the conversation just didn't quite mesh.

Has the gun become a safety valve for some scouts? If the 95 kid goes up & doesn't make it, they can say - "But dang, he was throwing 95" as they all shake their heads & turn the page with everything okay. Whereas if they send up a 85 & he doesn't make it, someone can criticize the scout saying "What did you expect? Sending up that 85'er?"

A friend of mine is close friends with a MLB former scout & pitching coach. That gentleman will tell you that today's scouts are given too much weight to the gun. Does he have no credibility? Is he being disrespectful?

I don't think scouts are village idiots. But I do think they are human. And just as highly intelligent business executives have fallen prey to "fads" over the years, I think that highly intelligent scouts can do the same. But that's JMHO.