Texan,
The friend of yours who is close friends with a former scout and pitching coach that says today's scouts are giving to much weight to the gun.... probably has all kinds of credibility.
Not sure I understand the story about the mid 90s DI pitcher. The conclusion I would draw from that conversation is that these scouts will continue to follow this pitcher because 1 - he is big and 2 - he can throw mid 90s. Not many around like that! What ever happened to that kid or is he still in college?
Scouts do what their club wants them to do. If their Scouting Director tells them to throw away the guns we are no longer interested, the scouts will no longer report on velocity. Don't stay awake waiting for that to happen, though.
Major League baseball and the organizations dictate what is desirable. These things can and have changed some over the years. For example years ago speed (running) was considered much more important than it is today. Reason - Teams like the Royals, Cardinals, Dodgers, etc. were very successful because of speed. That changed over time to the point power became the more desirable tool.
Not so long ago the average MLB fastball was 87-88 mph. Today it is more like 89-90 mph and seems to be rising. Baseball dictates that, not the employees of the teams. So if we are going to blame the employees for the craze in velocity... We might as well just go right to the top and blame Major League baseball. They would be most responsible for this big interest in velocity.
Sure sounds like a no win situation. Why fight it? If you can't beat em... might as well join em!
If reading a radar gun is all that a scout needed to do. Everyone who is not legally blind would qualify for the job.
Look at the early rounds of each years draft. You will find a bunch of pitchers who can pitch and they all throw 90+! You don't see pitchers who throw 90+ who can't pitch... and you don't see those who throw 82-85 who can pitch. However, you might see someone who can throw 98-100 and has a bit less of the other things, drafted pretty high.
That's just the way it is, right or wrong. I think we ARE basically on the same page... other than I plan to accept and adjust my beliefs to whatever the standards are. You seem to want to be a rebel and I admire that! Thanks for your opinions.
Texan I have heard similar conversations while sitting with scouts. my son has been to several MLB camps and hits 84 and they do keep him back to throw to some batters. If the camp is full of 90+ he gets over looked.
Last week I taked to a scout who sent his card home to me a year ago to update him on my son's current situation. He reports directly to the head office and is the Tampa NY city area scout He had just got back from Georgia and he thanked me for getting back to him. We talked and laughed for over an hour. He is sendind a scout who covers SC to keep track of him. His son went to the U of SC. He did say his velocity had to come up a bit but said 4 years of college should be more than enough to get him there with his tall skinny frame.
I feel most scout are fine gentlemen and some can get a little jadded after looking at thousands of prospects. In a pro style camp it is often hard to tell one CB, FB etc from another. I tend to like the ones where scrimmages are involved.
Last week I taked to a scout who sent his card home to me a year ago to update him on my son's current situation. He reports directly to the head office and is the Tampa NY city area scout He had just got back from Georgia and he thanked me for getting back to him. We talked and laughed for over an hour. He is sendind a scout who covers SC to keep track of him. His son went to the U of SC. He did say his velocity had to come up a bit but said 4 years of college should be more than enough to get him there with his tall skinny frame.
I feel most scout are fine gentlemen and some can get a little jadded after looking at thousands of prospects. In a pro style camp it is often hard to tell one CB, FB etc from another. I tend to like the ones where scrimmages are involved.
Perhaps the mindset is so strong, you have to be outside the establishment to see it.
Scouts sit around for two innings. Talking about how the pitcher couldn't find the plate with both hands if he was sitting on it. How he has had the same problem as long as they have followed him. About having only a fastball. He is gone in a couple of innings.
Any normal human being (heck, even me
) would draw the conclusion - both on their own & based on the scouts' observations - that this kid is no prospect.
But what is the final verdict? He's big & throws hard, so he is a great prospect.
If this kid couldn't get many innings in D1 ball, how the heck is he going to be successful in the show? Maybe you can explain that one, because I sure as heck don't understand it.
He was drafted, even though he didn't see much mound time in college. But I have heard (don't know personally) that he still can't find the plate.
Rebel? I guess. Certainly I'm not the only one who holds these views. But sometimes one does feel like yelling "The emperor is not wearing any clothes!"
And if there are so many of these great pitchers throwing 95-100 mph, where are they being hidden? Why do the bigs have anyone left in their stables that don't throw 95+? Just doesn't add up to me.
Again, who wouldn't love to have another Nolan, Sandy or Train? But there aren't too many of those guys, even today.
Scouts sit around for two innings. Talking about how the pitcher couldn't find the plate with both hands if he was sitting on it. How he has had the same problem as long as they have followed him. About having only a fastball. He is gone in a couple of innings.
Any normal human being (heck, even me
) would draw the conclusion - both on their own & based on the scouts' observations - that this kid is no prospect.But what is the final verdict? He's big & throws hard, so he is a great prospect.
If this kid couldn't get many innings in D1 ball, how the heck is he going to be successful in the show? Maybe you can explain that one, because I sure as heck don't understand it.
He was drafted, even though he didn't see much mound time in college. But I have heard (don't know personally) that he still can't find the plate.
Rebel? I guess. Certainly I'm not the only one who holds these views. But sometimes one does feel like yelling "The emperor is not wearing any clothes!"
And if there are so many of these great pitchers throwing 95-100 mph, where are they being hidden? Why do the bigs have anyone left in their stables that don't throw 95+? Just doesn't add up to me.
Again, who wouldn't love to have another Nolan, Sandy or Train? But there aren't too many of those guys, even today.
It is my conclusion that more than 2 scouts sitting together won't get you much. Those that want the kid bad enough will be telling the others that he's not that good. They don't projct him nhigh because of wldness. Another might comment that he sure can throw hard, trying to get the 1st scout to give more. Another will comment on his size and son on. I have heard this conversation many times, we all know they're interested, but we don't know how much and thats the way they like it.
quote:And if there are so many of these great pitchers throwing 95-100 mph, where are they being hidden? Why do the bigs have anyone left in their stables that don't throw 95+? Just doesn't add up to me.
Who said there were so many of them? And as great as Ryan and Koufax both were, they both struggled with control early in their careers.
The normal person (you mention) would be wrong... If a big kid is throwing Mid 90s... That is enough to make him a prospect. It's what you might see in three or four years... not what you've seen in the past or today! You haven't mentioned anything other than big, mid 90s and wild, there's much more that needs to be known. The wildness will keep him from being a real high pick, but it does not necessarily mean he is a NP.
Please take a look at Jason Neighborgal's stats at Georgia Tech. The normal person would NP him. The Major Leagues drafted him with the first pick of the 3rd round.
Here was Baseball America's predraft report on him.
The draft’s biggest enigma, Neighborgall shows first-round stuff and not-drafted stuff, sometimes in the same inning. Neighborgall (advised by Scott Boras) was looking for a Josh Beckett deal ($7 million) coming out of high school. Three years later, he has gotten limited work at Georgia Tech, and he has more career walks (110) than innings pitched (101). Neighborgall has an amazing arm with as much arm strength as any pitcher in the world. His fastball has broken 100 mph in one-inning stints in the Cape Cod League. This spring, he was at 95-97 mph at his best with an upper-80s slider with two-plane depth, and his changeup earns praise from scouts, who consider it an above-average pitch. The obvious problem is command. Clearly part of his problem is mental; he lacks confidence, particularly after an ugly start at Miami in a 20-1 loss. His mechanics are shot, as he flies open with his front shoulder, short-circuits the long arc of his arm and lands awkwardly, pushing himself away from home plate. Neighborgall’s ceiling is higher than that of any pitcher in the draft, but his likelihood of reaching his ceiling is perhaps lower than any pitcher’s. The Boras relationship complicates matters when trying to figure out where he’s selected; he’s expected to go anywhere from the sandwich round (to a team with extra picks and a history with Boras clients) to the fifth round, or to go completely undrafted.
That's the value of velocity and size! It also shows how much the wildness cost him, because without it, he would have been very early first round. Do his college stats look familiar to the guy you are talking about?
He could go either way, but he will get his chance because of one reason. It's just the way things are.
Coachric
Those are very intelligent observations, sir.
So many times I hear things that aren't exactly true about prospects, schedules, locations, etc.> that can be very costly. It always pays to do some cking because of these valid pts.-LOL
Shep
Those are very intelligent observations, sir.
So many times I hear things that aren't exactly true about prospects, schedules, locations, etc.> that can be very costly. It always pays to do some cking because of these valid pts.-LOL
Shep
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Who said there were so many of them? And as great as Ryan and Koufax both were, they both struggled with control early in their careers.
And - needless to say that Nolan Ryan - one of the greatest pitchers that ever lived - was at his worst when he was a member of.............
The NY Mets
Those scouts might be a bit more far sighted than you think.
Not sure about pitchers as a group but most players that reach "the show" have spent 3-5 years in the minors.
Those scouts see a kid that can throw 95, not likely a developed skill, but natural, AND BELIEVE THAT THEIR ORGANIZATION HAS THE INSTRUCTORS TO TURN HIM INTO A MLB PITCHER.
Not sure about pitchers as a group but most players that reach "the show" have spent 3-5 years in the minors.
Those scouts see a kid that can throw 95, not likely a developed skill, but natural, AND BELIEVE THAT THEIR ORGANIZATION HAS THE INSTRUCTORS TO TURN HIM INTO A MLB PITCHER.
quote:Originally posted by FormerObserver:
Those scouts see a kid that can throw 95, not likely a developed skill, but natural, AND BELIEVE THAT THEIR ORGANIZATION HAS THE INSTRUCTORS TO TURN HIM INTO A MLB PITCHER.
Well I should hope they do. That seems a little obvious, even to the casual observer. Would they draft him if they didn't think they could?
What is the failure rate, though? I doubt any of us have the info or time available to dig out that answer.
Sitting here, casually in my drawers, the failure rate is high, Texan.
So is drilling oil wells.
But, if you hit the one big 'un.........
So is drilling oil wells.
But, if you hit the one big 'un.........
quote:Originally posted by FormerObserver:
Sitting here, casually in my drawers, the failure rate is high, Texan.
So is drilling oil wells.
But, if you hit the one big 'un.........
Heck, I used to do that. And at one time could have given you those numbers. Before I started losing my... my... Uh, what were we talking about?
Much higher odds than a kid making it to the bigs, though.
PGStaff/FormerObserver,
Excellent posts!!!
Jason
Excellent posts!!!
Jason
Hello all...
Been a long time since I have posted or even looked here.
As to the question:
I believe there is no "specific" workout. Each body reacts differently to a workout.
My son is now a college soph. at a small New England D-III school. (Wesleyan University)
His velocity at the end of his freshman year was topping out at 88 on a good day. That means to me he was living around 85 on a good fastball.
He had a horrible freshman year. Pitched a few horrible innings and settled down to finish OK.
His workout routine is not one I considered to be beneficial.
He is 6'2" (on a good day) and weights 170.
All off season we would banter back and forth about his "workout habits" Like any 19 year old I was dismissed with a "whatever"
I have to admit he was correct.
His routine would consist of cable weights for the forearm and shoulders. Running, running, running..Weight work for his legs, and weight work for his "entire back". Of course not to mention core work and throwing (working on movement, control and location). Strong as an ox but still looks slight to me.
To make a long story short.. He's now topping 92 (on a good day) but I see the ball run down and out with his 2 seamer. Needs to work more on his curve..It looks more like a slider. He calls it a slurve.
Keep in mind this was in mid Jan. during winter break and this is indoors in a controlled environment.
The field of play always holds a different view.
I hope this has helped your question.
Paul
Been a long time since I have posted or even looked here.
As to the question:
I believe there is no "specific" workout. Each body reacts differently to a workout.
My son is now a college soph. at a small New England D-III school. (Wesleyan University)
His velocity at the end of his freshman year was topping out at 88 on a good day. That means to me he was living around 85 on a good fastball.
He had a horrible freshman year. Pitched a few horrible innings and settled down to finish OK.
His workout routine is not one I considered to be beneficial.
He is 6'2" (on a good day) and weights 170.
All off season we would banter back and forth about his "workout habits" Like any 19 year old I was dismissed with a "whatever"
I have to admit he was correct.
His routine would consist of cable weights for the forearm and shoulders. Running, running, running..Weight work for his legs, and weight work for his "entire back". Of course not to mention core work and throwing (working on movement, control and location). Strong as an ox but still looks slight to me.
To make a long story short.. He's now topping 92 (on a good day) but I see the ball run down and out with his 2 seamer. Needs to work more on his curve..It looks more like a slider. He calls it a slurve.
Keep in mind this was in mid Jan. during winter break and this is indoors in a controlled environment.
The field of play always holds a different view.
I hope this has helped your question.
Paul
Sirguy your son is similar to mine 6'3 170 lbs and skinnnny. Long fingers,arms,legs . He is generally pitching 78-82 mph and occasionally hits 83-84moh.
His strength is his control. Has thrown curve balls since 9yo. His fast ball looks awful fast against the off speeds and he throws his curve balls even with a full count.
We are hoping the same thing happens to him as your son. the biggest fear is that he loses his touch while trying to develop his velocity.
In general most of the hard throwers I know do not usually have great control.
His strength is his control. Has thrown curve balls since 9yo. His fast ball looks awful fast against the off speeds and he throws his curve balls even with a full count.
We are hoping the same thing happens to him as your son. the biggest fear is that he loses his touch while trying to develop his velocity.
In general most of the hard throwers I know do not usually have great control.
both velocity and location, (movement, etc.) are important and necessary to be successful as a pitcher at a high level. Although I agree with everyone that says location is necessary, i disagree with those who say velocity isnt. Without velocity, hitters at a high level will be able to prey on the offspeed and adjust to location. With a fastball in the mid to upper 80's, (85+), a pitcher with great location has the ability to succeed at the college, and possibly professional level.
