CADad has done a ton of research on velocity.. and I've done a little, too.. if you do a find on this site on velocity you can go back and read some of it. Very interesting stuff.
It is very natural for a parent of a freshman to be concerned where their kid stacks up velocity-wise. I asked myself the same sort of questions you're asking: "Will he be fast enough to pitch for the freshman?" became "Will he be fast enough to make the starting rotation on varsity?" became "Will he be fast enough for college?" has now become "Will he be fast enough to be drafted?"
It's been a very fun ride, BOF, but all I can tell you is.. been there, done that. I cannot tell you if your son will continue to add velocity, or make a big jump, or stay ahead of any curve. There are so many factors, including mechanics and arm angle, genetics, arm speed, even how he grips the baseball. Some have a inherent talent that is just busting to get out. Some have no talent at all. Some have the talent but don't have the heart and can't pitch in big games.
So my advise to you is, enjoy the ride, work hard, and always keep looking at the next level. "What do I have to do to get there?" And as for pitching, do a lot of it. I really think it was an advantage that my son was not the fastest pitcher at age 12, 13, or 14. Why? He had to learn how to pitch and get guys out first. Now that he's also got good velocity, it has all come together.
I am gonna have to agree with BUM on what he just said. I have watched my son pitch for 4 years (now 12 years old) and it is interesting that when he first started pitching in the leauge as a 9 year old he never even got sideways with his body, it was pretty much all arm. He wasn't the fastest pitcher but he could throw strike after strike. By the end of the season he was selected to play on one of the traveling allstar teams because of the simple fact that he could throw them over the plate with descent velocity.
After allstars were over I started working with him on turning his body sideways and pitching entirely from the stretch. To my amazement he didn't really throw any harder but he certainly looked better. By the time the next year rolled around he had become quite polished pitching from the stretch. During the regular season before allstars, he became known as the most feared pitcher in the league, and it wasn;t because he was one of the faster pitchers which of coarse he was. He was feared because of his natural ability to just keep coming after batters with strikes with a "cmon and try to hit me attitude". He had figured out how to get inside of batters heads and use all of the hype to phsyche kids out before they even came up to bat.
Advance two years later and he is still one of the most feared kids to try to hit off of and yet it is still not because of his speed even though he can throw with the best of them velocity wise. He will just keep attacking that strike zone one after another and doing it all from the stretch. So velocity for the most part is highly over-rated. I agree though that it still is the number one factor for qualifying to getting preferential treatment.
There is nothing worse than a kid who throws with wicked velocity and can't get it over the plate! It's like you bring him in for 2/3 of an inning when you have the lead just to scare the other team or throw them off. I have one pitcher who also is the opposite and throws these wicked slow changeups that lure kids into swinging even though they are not usually strikes. He will get more outs than the faster pitcher just because he is causing the balls to be put into play and giving the defense a chance to work.
I think in all reality, scouts will look more for pitchers who induce simple ground plays because strike out pitchers are too few and far between. Arm consideration health wise also plays an important role in pitchers as kids who throw lights out with cronic elbow or shoulder pain will not have much of a future at the higher levels.
After allstars were over I started working with him on turning his body sideways and pitching entirely from the stretch. To my amazement he didn't really throw any harder but he certainly looked better. By the time the next year rolled around he had become quite polished pitching from the stretch. During the regular season before allstars, he became known as the most feared pitcher in the league, and it wasn;t because he was one of the faster pitchers which of coarse he was. He was feared because of his natural ability to just keep coming after batters with strikes with a "cmon and try to hit me attitude". He had figured out how to get inside of batters heads and use all of the hype to phsyche kids out before they even came up to bat.
Advance two years later and he is still one of the most feared kids to try to hit off of and yet it is still not because of his speed even though he can throw with the best of them velocity wise. He will just keep attacking that strike zone one after another and doing it all from the stretch. So velocity for the most part is highly over-rated. I agree though that it still is the number one factor for qualifying to getting preferential treatment.
There is nothing worse than a kid who throws with wicked velocity and can't get it over the plate! It's like you bring him in for 2/3 of an inning when you have the lead just to scare the other team or throw them off. I have one pitcher who also is the opposite and throws these wicked slow changeups that lure kids into swinging even though they are not usually strikes. He will get more outs than the faster pitcher just because he is causing the balls to be put into play and giving the defense a chance to work.
I think in all reality, scouts will look more for pitchers who induce simple ground plays because strike out pitchers are too few and far between. Arm consideration health wise also plays an important role in pitchers as kids who throw lights out with cronic elbow or shoulder pain will not have much of a future at the higher levels.
Gingerbread Man, with all due respect no, I think that's wrong. Scouts do want velocity and never lose sight of this fact. I have told this story elsewhere on HSBBW but I will repeat it here for the benefit of the conversation.
When my son was on his official visit (Pac-10 D1 University) I was having lunch with me, my wife, Bum, Jr. and his sponsor (a pitcher). "Coach told me," said the sponsor, "that velocity is only #4 on a list which includes location, movement, and deception." Surprised, I asked him if he were sure. Yes, he confided, that's what coach told him. Velocity was the least important factor in pitching.
The next morning, at breakfast, now with both the sponsor and coach present, the sponsor reiterated the story he told us the day before. "Hey coach," he said, "I told (Bum, Jr.) that velocity was only #4 on a list which included location, movement and deception."
"You told them that?" said the coach, dumfounded.
"Yes..yes, coach," responded the sponsor.
"Did you tell them why I considered velocity the least important factor?"
The sponsor looked perplexed, then the coach said:
"Because by the time you get here, you better already have it."
Please don't dillude yourself into thinking velocity is not important. It is all-important. As I've said before, velocity is not the show. It is the ticket to the show. You have to have velocity. However, once you get to the show, you have to know how to pitch!
My advice to all you parents of younger pitchers: Work on velocity with unending verve. Never, never stop throwing harder and obsessing with velocity. However, with equal passion, continually work on the art of pitching, because in the end it is what you do.
When my son was on his official visit (Pac-10 D1 University) I was having lunch with me, my wife, Bum, Jr. and his sponsor (a pitcher). "Coach told me," said the sponsor, "that velocity is only #4 on a list which includes location, movement, and deception." Surprised, I asked him if he were sure. Yes, he confided, that's what coach told him. Velocity was the least important factor in pitching.
The next morning, at breakfast, now with both the sponsor and coach present, the sponsor reiterated the story he told us the day before. "Hey coach," he said, "I told (Bum, Jr.) that velocity was only #4 on a list which included location, movement and deception."
"You told them that?" said the coach, dumfounded.
"Yes..yes, coach," responded the sponsor.
"Did you tell them why I considered velocity the least important factor?"
The sponsor looked perplexed, then the coach said:
"Because by the time you get here, you better already have it."
Please don't dillude yourself into thinking velocity is not important. It is all-important. As I've said before, velocity is not the show. It is the ticket to the show. You have to have velocity. However, once you get to the show, you have to know how to pitch!
My advice to all you parents of younger pitchers: Work on velocity with unending verve. Never, never stop throwing harder and obsessing with velocity. However, with equal passion, continually work on the art of pitching, because in the end it is what you do.
quote:that's when there was another JUGS right next to mine and the readings were quite different between the two guns.
Said the same thing several times: readings on side by side guns will vary to a surprising degree.
Interesting that the Stalker was reading 1 mph higher than the Jugs. I might buy that. I don't believe that Jugs are 2 to 3 mph higher that some here claim. Again, that probably varies with the guns' vintage. Stalkers, especially, have been made for many years with some internal changes along the way.
Bum,
The scout was not there for my 14 year old. It was at an 8 team varsity spring break tournament. Son's team had played a regular conference game on Friday, had 4 tournament games Mon. through Thursday, then had another conference game when they returned home on Friday. There were probably half a dozen sophs and frosh in addition to my 8th grader who got to pitch some in the tourney. I think the coach took anyone he thought could eat up an inning or two to get through the 6 games in eight days, while still saving his regular Friday starter for the conference game when we got back.
The scout was not there for my 14 year old. It was at an 8 team varsity spring break tournament. Son's team had played a regular conference game on Friday, had 4 tournament games Mon. through Thursday, then had another conference game when they returned home on Friday. There were probably half a dozen sophs and frosh in addition to my 8th grader who got to pitch some in the tourney. I think the coach took anyone he thought could eat up an inning or two to get through the 6 games in eight days, while still saving his regular Friday starter for the conference game when we got back.
BOF,
Good advice from Bum. Keep working on both. Mine has jumped in velocity but regressed on control and it has hurt him. The loss of control is a mix of developing some mechanical flaws and getting too fine after giving up a well hit ball.
Good advice from Bum. Keep working on both. Mine has jumped in velocity but regressed on control and it has hurt him. The loss of control is a mix of developing some mechanical flaws and getting too fine after giving up a well hit ball.
micdsguy,
When JUGS are too close too each other there's a tendency for them to interfere with each other. As far as the Stalker and the JUGS difference it mostly just depends on the individual gun. Every gun is a little bit different. In general, as much as I'd like to say that my JUGS only reads 1 mph faster than a Stalker as that would mean my son is throwing 1 mph faster than I believe he really is, my guess is that it reads 2 mph faster than most Stalkers. Although the majority of the readings were 1 mph faster there were 1 or two that were 2 mph faster. What pleased me was the consistency of the readings between the two guns.
When JUGS are too close too each other there's a tendency for them to interfere with each other. As far as the Stalker and the JUGS difference it mostly just depends on the individual gun. Every gun is a little bit different. In general, as much as I'd like to say that my JUGS only reads 1 mph faster than a Stalker as that would mean my son is throwing 1 mph faster than I believe he really is, my guess is that it reads 2 mph faster than most Stalkers. Although the majority of the readings were 1 mph faster there were 1 or two that were 2 mph faster. What pleased me was the consistency of the readings between the two guns.
Bum,
Don't get me wrong, I too believe that it is velocity that is the big ticket for playing after high school. The thing I am saying is just what you are saying. I am stating that once a certain level of velocity is maintained as in my son's case, the thing that truly makes him good is not the overwhelming velocity but his ability to throw strikes at will mhile maintaing a descent velocity.
We have a kid in our league who throws pretty darn fast but never recieves any recognition as being a "good" pitcher because he can't get kids to either hit into outs or record strikeouts either with any real consistancy. People will say- "he sure throws fast" and that is about it!
A pitcher who could maintain a high velocity (mid to upper 90's), go 5-6 innings, has great command of his pitches with a low era is a dream come true for any scout and will go first round more than likely. The prblem is however, they are so far and few between. I have heard quite a few scouts talking at the college and rookie leagues who first look at command and projectability and then at their radar readings as an added bonus. Nobody cares if a pitcher can throw 95mph all day long and have the highest era on the team.
That is why I think velocity is over-rated. Sure, you need to throw in the mid to upper 80's to really even be projectable after high school, but any "good" pitcher will already be in this category by that time anyway. I had someone tell me how good their son is at pitching and one of the first things they said was how fast he was throwing, not on how he gets people out. I had another proud father tell me how his son got kids out and didn't even mention how fast he was throwing. A good high school pitcher needs to concentrate most on being consistant at the command of each of their pitches and not on how fast they are throwing.
My son has this same problem where he is so enammered by pitching velocity and the fear of not being the fastest thrower that it takes away from his already natural abilities. I keep telling my son- "Look, you already throw as fast as the best pitchers in the league and surrounding area, lets work on the off speed stuff".
High school pitchers should spend the majority of their time learning to throw with the proper control and command and then lastly work on throwing the pitches he can control at a faster velocity. The faster velocity is just the icing on the cake where the main substance is the command and control.
The college players who get the most notice are the ones who can control their composure and pitch through anything while being able to maintain a low era. Velocity is not so much of an issue at that level because they wouldn't be there in the first place if they can't maintain the minimum velocity to pitch at that level.
Don't get me wrong, I too believe that it is velocity that is the big ticket for playing after high school. The thing I am saying is just what you are saying. I am stating that once a certain level of velocity is maintained as in my son's case, the thing that truly makes him good is not the overwhelming velocity but his ability to throw strikes at will mhile maintaing a descent velocity.
We have a kid in our league who throws pretty darn fast but never recieves any recognition as being a "good" pitcher because he can't get kids to either hit into outs or record strikeouts either with any real consistancy. People will say- "he sure throws fast" and that is about it!
A pitcher who could maintain a high velocity (mid to upper 90's), go 5-6 innings, has great command of his pitches with a low era is a dream come true for any scout and will go first round more than likely. The prblem is however, they are so far and few between. I have heard quite a few scouts talking at the college and rookie leagues who first look at command and projectability and then at their radar readings as an added bonus. Nobody cares if a pitcher can throw 95mph all day long and have the highest era on the team.
That is why I think velocity is over-rated. Sure, you need to throw in the mid to upper 80's to really even be projectable after high school, but any "good" pitcher will already be in this category by that time anyway. I had someone tell me how good their son is at pitching and one of the first things they said was how fast he was throwing, not on how he gets people out. I had another proud father tell me how his son got kids out and didn't even mention how fast he was throwing. A good high school pitcher needs to concentrate most on being consistant at the command of each of their pitches and not on how fast they are throwing.
My son has this same problem where he is so enammered by pitching velocity and the fear of not being the fastest thrower that it takes away from his already natural abilities. I keep telling my son- "Look, you already throw as fast as the best pitchers in the league and surrounding area, lets work on the off speed stuff".
High school pitchers should spend the majority of their time learning to throw with the proper control and command and then lastly work on throwing the pitches he can control at a faster velocity. The faster velocity is just the icing on the cake where the main substance is the command and control.
The college players who get the most notice are the ones who can control their composure and pitch through anything while being able to maintain a low era. Velocity is not so much of an issue at that level because they wouldn't be there in the first place if they can't maintain the minimum velocity to pitch at that level.
Here in Northern California USSSA State Championship (in October 2007), 14 and under teams in the Major division threw typically 67-69 for a good pitcher and 71-73 for a few exceptional ones. By this spring time, they may add 2 miles.
If your kids at age 14 can throw 70 and also get to pitch in a good team (meaning can throw strike and some control), view yourself as one of the few top guys in Northern California. It is entirely possible someone here can throw faster than 71-73, but unfortunately may not have the control to be able to pitch in a high level competition and thus not be widely known here.
wave
If your kids at age 14 can throw 70 and also get to pitch in a good team (meaning can throw strike and some control), view yourself as one of the few top guys in Northern California. It is entirely possible someone here can throw faster than 71-73, but unfortunately may not have the control to be able to pitch in a high level competition and thus not be widely known here.
wave
Gingerbreadman said:
I have heard quite a few scouts talking at the college and rookie leagues who first look at command and projectibility and then at their radar guns as an ADDED BONUS.
You are kidding, right?
The college players who get the most notice are the ones who can control their composure and pitch through anything while being able to maintain a low era. Velocity is not so much of an issue at that level because they wouldn't be there in the first place if they can't maintain the minimum velocity to pitch at that level.
Not necessarily true.
JMO.
I have heard quite a few scouts talking at the college and rookie leagues who first look at command and projectibility and then at their radar guns as an ADDED BONUS.
You are kidding, right?
The college players who get the most notice are the ones who can control their composure and pitch through anything while being able to maintain a low era. Velocity is not so much of an issue at that level because they wouldn't be there in the first place if they can't maintain the minimum velocity to pitch at that level.
Not necessarily true.
JMO.
Thanks for all the wonderful advice on pitching and velocity. Excellent forum! You guys really know your stuff. Well, I have a younger brother who is 16 turning 17 at the end of june and is playing on a top ranked 5A team in the Dallas/Ft Worth area as a junior (started early). He has been clocked on multiple guns ranging from 81-86mph. His current stats are 6-0 with 2 saves, 41IP, 26 hits, 12 BB, 53K, and 0.34 ERA. He's a good size kid standing 6'1" 215lbs but his growth paterns are identical to mine and I'm 6'3" 210lbs. He has excellent control and throws a 4-seam, circle change, and a slurve (in between curve and slider). He isn't even the #1 or #2 starter on the team since they have 3 starting seniors and a closer who hits 90 mph. Next year, he will be their #1.
What I'm getting at is....what are some things I can work with him on to help him improve his velocity and get it closer to the 91-92mph area? Am I just acting a bit impatient and need to let him continue growing/maturing or are there things that we can work on together to help improve velocity?
What I'm getting at is....what are some things I can work with him on to help him improve his velocity and get it closer to the 91-92mph area? Am I just acting a bit impatient and need to let him continue growing/maturing or are there things that we can work on together to help improve velocity?
There are some things your brother can work on to help improve velocity. Nothing will guarantee your brother a 90 MPH fastball.. that's a special thing that one either has or doesn't have. Working hard can help him find out but won't necessarily make it happen. Having said that:
1) General athleticism
2) Core strength
3) Plyometrics
4) Long-toss
5) Band work
6) Weight lifting (especially leg strength)
1) General athleticism
2) Core strength
3) Plyometrics
4) Long-toss
5) Band work
6) Weight lifting (especially leg strength)
I should clarify myself on what scouts look for as far as what I have overheard-
The minimum velocity I am talking about is the 88-92 mph range. Any true projectable pitcher at the D1-rookie leagues should be able to pitch at this velocity. After that is all said and done (supposing all on the team throw the minimum velocity) scouts will generally be more interested in their command and composure coupled with their era. The radar readings are just a bonus if they can do all of the said above and pitch mid to upper 90's.
The minimum velocity I am talking about is the 88-92 mph range. Any true projectable pitcher at the D1-rookie leagues should be able to pitch at this velocity. After that is all said and done (supposing all on the team throw the minimum velocity) scouts will generally be more interested in their command and composure coupled with their era. The radar readings are just a bonus if they can do all of the said above and pitch mid to upper 90's.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I should clarify myself on what scouts look for as far as what I have overheard-
The minimum velocity I am talking about is the 88-92 mph range. Any true projectable pitcher at the D1-rookie leagues should be able to pitch at this velocity. After that is all said and done (supposing all on the team throw the minimum velocity) scouts will generally be more interested in their command and composure coupled with their era. The radar readings are just a bonus if they can do all of the said above and pitch mid to upper 90's.
GBM:
HUH? You are all over the place with your comments and to say that "your" velocity threshold is 88-92 is nuts. Then to add that it is an extra "bonus" to be able to thow mid to upper 90's.
Do you have any idea on how many kids can throw mid to upper 90's?
Actually do you know how many kids can throw 88-92?
I'll answer this for you.....not many.
BOF and GBM. D1 I'd say "minimum" is 84-85 (LHP) and 86-87 (RHP). Rookie maybe 87-88 (LHP) and 88-89 (RHP). But what is "minimum" anyway?
A rookie-ball team might take one RHP at the minimum of 88 but have four at 90, three at 91, one at 92, and one at 96. Guess who's going to pitch the most? Guess who's going to pitch the least? I agree upper-90's is not a "bonus". That's a pert-near guarantee.
A rookie-ball team might take one RHP at the minimum of 88 but have four at 90, three at 91, one at 92, and one at 96. Guess who's going to pitch the most? Guess who's going to pitch the least? I agree upper-90's is not a "bonus". That's a pert-near guarantee.
Bum,
Looks about right for D1 but there is a spread in D1 so it could be a tad lower at some of the weaker D1s if those are working velocities on a Stalker.
Looks about right for D1 but there is a spread in D1 so it could be a tad lower at some of the weaker D1s if those are working velocities on a Stalker.
BOF, You said-
"GBM:
HUH? You are all over the place with your comments and to say that "your" velocity threshold is 88-92 is nuts. Then to add that it is an extra "bonus" to be able to thow mid to upper 90's.
Do you have any idea on how many kids can throw mid to upper 90's?
Actually do you know how many kids can throw 88-92?
I'll answer this for you.....not many."
College games are on the TV all the time, I even go and watch the local games in my area when I can. Every kid out there pitching pretty much is throwing around 90 mph- some a little lower and some higher. I would guess that the number of pitchers throwing at that velocity is pretty common at about every college and also at the pro rookie level. That amounts to an awful lot of kids- thousands of them. What say ye?
"GBM:
HUH? You are all over the place with your comments and to say that "your" velocity threshold is 88-92 is nuts. Then to add that it is an extra "bonus" to be able to thow mid to upper 90's.
Do you have any idea on how many kids can throw mid to upper 90's?
Actually do you know how many kids can throw 88-92?
I'll answer this for you.....not many."
College games are on the TV all the time, I even go and watch the local games in my area when I can. Every kid out there pitching pretty much is throwing around 90 mph- some a little lower and some higher. I would guess that the number of pitchers throwing at that velocity is pretty common at about every college and also at the pro rookie level. That amounts to an awful lot of kids- thousands of them. What say ye?
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
College games are on the TV all the time, I even go and watch the local games in my area when I can. Every kid out there pitching pretty much is throwing around 90 mph- some a little lower and some higher. I would guess that the number of pitchers throwing at that velocity is pretty common at about every college and also at the pro rookie level. That amounts to an awful lot of kids- thousands of them. What say ye?
I say this, Wow. I have seen more college pitchers throw way below 90 than above, even in the ACC.
The college games on TV are for weekend games, there you will find the pitchers pitching with the highest velocity. Many may hit 90 but their zone is lower.
If it is so what you see, no offense, they wouldn't be pitching in Idaho.
Are you talking hitting that number or cruising speed? Are they just throwing or pitching?
Do you believe everything you see on TV?
BUM's numbers are right on from what I have seen. (so far)
I live in SoCal and have seen some highly ranked national level teams play, I have a freshly calibrated Stalker and have seen MORE Varsity pitchers throwing under 80 than over. I have seen ONE kid throw 91. (on two pitches, was working 87-89 - he is a highly recruited D1 maybe top 2-3 round MLB pick)
If it is what you say it is in Idaho, we're movin. Better yet starting tonight my son is on the "potato pitchers plus7 diet". (where is Dan Quayle when you need him)
We have the "dad-7 rule" now we have the "potato paradigm"
BUM's numbers are right on from what I have seen. (so far)
I live in SoCal and have seen some highly ranked national level teams play, I have a freshly calibrated Stalker and have seen MORE Varsity pitchers throwing under 80 than over. I have seen ONE kid throw 91. (on two pitches, was working 87-89 - he is a highly recruited D1 maybe top 2-3 round MLB pick)
If it is what you say it is in Idaho, we're movin. Better yet starting tonight my son is on the "potato pitchers plus7 diet". (where is Dan Quayle when you need him)
We have the "dad-7 rule" now we have the "potato paradigm"
Maybe we have a misunderstanding here. I agree that very few HS pitchers throw upper 80's to low 90's. What I am saying is that at the "D1 to pro rookie league" level, pretty much every pitcher can throw 88-92 mph. That in and of itself accounts for an awfully lot of pitchers at the sub mlb level that can throw at that velocity. So, if everyone is throwing at or around 90 at the games, what are scouts really looking for? They are looking for someone who maintains pro level velocity who has great projection based upon his era, composure, arm strength, fluidity/ deception etc...
The doggone stalker gun is plain and simply not the exclaimation point at that level unless it is exceptional which is very far and few between. If scouts had to find upper 90's pitchers to satisfy their clubs, we would have a whole lot of scouts out of jobs!
The doggone stalker gun is plain and simply not the exclaimation point at that level unless it is exceptional which is very far and few between. If scouts had to find upper 90's pitchers to satisfy their clubs, we would have a whole lot of scouts out of jobs!
GM,
You are way off the mark with "D1 to pro rookie league" level, pretty much every pitcher can throw 88-92.
You are way off the mark with "D1 to pro rookie league" level, pretty much every pitcher can throw 88-92.
quote:What I am saying is that at the "D1 to pro rookie league" level, pretty much every pitcher can throw 88-92 mph. That in and of itself accounts for an awfully lot of pitchers at the sub mlb level that can throw at that velocity. So, if everyone is throwing at or around 90 at the games, what are scouts really looking for?
I thionk I saw what scouts are looking for. . . .
We played our final regular season game Friday night. There were about 4-5 scouts sitting below me, all with their Stalkers in hand. Our #1 arm was going against ONE of the other teams pro prospects. I looked down at the gun for the first pitch the opponent threw. It read 96, and was followed by 94, then 95. Offspeed pitch was 83. Whenever I looked, the guns were up; pretty much every inning and every pitch
Our #1 tops out at about 88-89. While I wasn't able to always observe the scouts, I NEVER saw one of them lift a gun to see what our pitcher was throwing.
When the other team brought in their OTHER prospect (a lefty who hits 91-92) all the guns were up and reading every pitch.
My take from the evening was that unless you have a reputation that says you're a 90+ guy, you may not get a scouts attention, even if the scout is at your game.
At the end of the game, one of the scouts (who I had not noticed earlier in the evening, and maybe not a pro scout?) did come up to the press box and ask the name of our starting pitcher.
As another aside, I did observe a couple instances where one Stalker read 1 mph different from the one beside it. But hey, whether it was 94 or 95 probably isn't a big deal at the HS level.
DadRinTX,
I'm interested in knowing more about your pitcher who tops out at 89. That is in the MLB average velocity range. My guess is they got his velo on a few pitches and those pitches were well below 89. Or maybe he is a very small guy? Or maybe his mechanics and arm action were a disaster? But 89 mph is noticeable and will get the guns out in nearly every case.
The other thing... A prospect throwing up to 96 and a lefty throwing low 90s... You would think there would be a lot more than 4-5 scouts at that game. Of course, if those two pitchers were named Marshall and Cervenka, they have been scouted by all 30 teams and nearly every scouting director by this time. There’s a good chance there were many other scouts at that game, maybe even some watching from the side.
If it wasn’t those two pitchers you saw on the same team, would you be so kind as to PM me who those pitchers were, as well as the 89 mph guy from your team. Thanks
I'm interested in knowing more about your pitcher who tops out at 89. That is in the MLB average velocity range. My guess is they got his velo on a few pitches and those pitches were well below 89. Or maybe he is a very small guy? Or maybe his mechanics and arm action were a disaster? But 89 mph is noticeable and will get the guns out in nearly every case.
The other thing... A prospect throwing up to 96 and a lefty throwing low 90s... You would think there would be a lot more than 4-5 scouts at that game. Of course, if those two pitchers were named Marshall and Cervenka, they have been scouted by all 30 teams and nearly every scouting director by this time. There’s a good chance there were many other scouts at that game, maybe even some watching from the side.
If it wasn’t those two pitchers you saw on the same team, would you be so kind as to PM me who those pitchers were, as well as the 89 mph guy from your team. Thanks
Was your #1 a junior or senior? The interest in juniors doesn't usually start picking up until sometime in the next few weeks. Even so, if he really was throwing high 80s, i.e. working 84-86, I'm surprised that they wouldn't have the guns out for a little while at least. Now if he's topping out at 88 on a JUGS and was working 83-84 on a Stalker then I'm not overly surprised, especially if they were pro scouts as seems likely with a pitcher throwing in the mid 90s. It is possible he just wasn't throwing very hard that day. It happens, especially toward the end of the season for the kid who has gotten the bulk of the innings.
quote:Of course, if those two pitchers were named Marshall and Cervenka, they have been scouted by all 30 teams and nearly every scouting director by this time.
PG,
Those guys probably are old news within the scouting circles by now. It was our 2nd time to face them, and both games had 4-5 scouts w/ guns present. I doubt that many folks get the chance to see a righty & a lefty from the same school throw that hard in a HS game. It is certainly entertaining. I'll send you the info on our #1 arm by email.
CADad,
Our #1 is a senior. I've not seen his gun readings myself, but they are reliable. Based on my "eye-ball" radar, I would say he works at 86 and touches 88-89.
quote:PG,
Those guys probably are old news within the scouting circles by now. It was our 2nd time to face them, and both games had 4-5 scouts w/ guns present. I doubt that many folks get the chance to see a righty & a lefty from the same school throw that hard in a HS game. It is certainly entertaining. I'll send you the info on our #1 arm by email.
DadRinTX,
It's always a big treat when you see something like that. It doesn't happen very often, that is why I figured it must have been Marshall and Cervenka. last year there was a team in NC that had two RHP and one LHP all throwing in the 90s. The lefty, mid 90s, went in the first round.
Here's a good question... Why does it seem like there are a larger percentage of power arms in Texas than everywhere else. Or is that just our imagination?
Thank you ahead of time for getting me the other kid's name. Very much appreciated.
quote:Here's a good question... Why does it seem like there are a larger percentage of power arms in Texas than everywhere else. Or is that just our imagination?
I can't answer that with any authority, but I'll offer some ideas.
Pure numbers - State 5A playoffs begin Friday. The top 4 teams in each district go to playoff and there are 128 teams in the playoff. That means there are approx. 250 5A schools in Texas. I believe the minimum size for 5A is 2500 students, so ~1250 boys per school means a pool of 300,000 plus to draw from, NOT COUNTING the 4A and 3A and 2A and 1A players. Start with a large pool of bodies, some are gonna be powerful.
Opportunity - There are some very good youth baseball programs all over the state, from the smallest of towns to the heart of Houston. There are some very good instructors available, especially in the bigger metro areas. Train those with potential early, the odds of them doing it correctly, and thus maximizing power is increased.
Availability - With this nice weather we have, the boys get to play year round. More throwing means stronger arms means more power. Especially if it is being instructed well.
TEXAS - Everything is Bigger and Better and Stronger in Texas.
DadRinTX,
My eyedar stinks so I don't even try. I was at a college camp and sitting behind the coach who was gunning the pitchers. There was a skinny lefty from Texas on the mound. He was working 81-82 on the Stalker. He threw one up in the zone and the coach asked us all how fast we thought it was. We all gave numbers down around 80-82. He showed us. It was 86.
My eyedar stinks so I don't even try. I was at a college camp and sitting behind the coach who was gunning the pitchers. There was a skinny lefty from Texas on the mound. He was working 81-82 on the Stalker. He threw one up in the zone and the coach asked us all how fast we thought it was. We all gave numbers down around 80-82. He showed us. It was 86.
Throwing hard is not always a tell tell sign of
a wonderful future as a pitcher for many reasons.
It can actually bread a false sense of security in some young pitchers that can blow it past most highschool hitters. I was throwing in the upper 80's during my junior year of highschool with great location, but this actually hindered me from mastering other pitches. My bread and butter was my curve ball and fastball. Eventually I would succomb to a sickness my senior year that would prevent me from my scholarship to UNC, but this is not important. I suggest the young kids really work on a off speed pitch that has good arm speed. SLiders can be lethal if thrown with good location for most young highschool and college hitters from my experience. In my opinion a pitcher really needs to master 4 pitches if he really wants to play professional baseball. Three pitches might get you a long way but eventually you will be standing on a mount looking for the pitch you never developed. I do agree that velocity means alot to college and pro scouts because they feel its the one thing that takes natural ability. They figure they can teach your the rest, but this is also not always the case. A smart pitcher like PEDRO MARTINEZ, throws pitches from different slots at different speeds.
Work hard kids and i suggest static isometrics for proper Leg,back,shoulder, and pec strength.
Check out Athletic Academia if you wish to learn more about using Isometrics to increase your velocity.
Now someone get me some peanuts and a coke.
PLAYBALL!
a wonderful future as a pitcher for many reasons.
It can actually bread a false sense of security in some young pitchers that can blow it past most highschool hitters. I was throwing in the upper 80's during my junior year of highschool with great location, but this actually hindered me from mastering other pitches. My bread and butter was my curve ball and fastball. Eventually I would succomb to a sickness my senior year that would prevent me from my scholarship to UNC, but this is not important. I suggest the young kids really work on a off speed pitch that has good arm speed. SLiders can be lethal if thrown with good location for most young highschool and college hitters from my experience. In my opinion a pitcher really needs to master 4 pitches if he really wants to play professional baseball. Three pitches might get you a long way but eventually you will be standing on a mount looking for the pitch you never developed. I do agree that velocity means alot to college and pro scouts because they feel its the one thing that takes natural ability. They figure they can teach your the rest, but this is also not always the case. A smart pitcher like PEDRO MARTINEZ, throws pitches from different slots at different speeds.
Work hard kids and i suggest static isometrics for proper Leg,back,shoulder, and pec strength.
Check out Athletic Academia if you wish to learn more about using Isometrics to increase your velocity.
Now someone get me some peanuts and a coke.
PLAYBALL!
Most top starters throw 3 pitches. Most top closers throw 2 pitches. Sliders can be very effective in HS and also very hard on young arms. A pitcher without a good fastball who throws too many sliders to top HS hitters or good college hitters will get hammered.
Pedro threw very hard in his prime.
Pedro threw very hard in his prime.
quote:speed pitch that has good arm speed. SLiders can be lethal if thrown with good location for most young highschool and college hitters from my experience. In my opinion a pitcher really needs to master 4 pitches if he really wants to play professional baseball. Three pitches might get you a long way but eventually
Warzone,
Sorry, but I have to disagree. Most Big League pitchers have not mastered four pitches. Unless you call 2 seam/4 seam two pitches. Those trying to master four pitches usually end up mastering no pitch. Those that have three quality pitches with one of them being a good fastball will be successful at any level of baseball.
3 pitches have taken many to the hall-of-fame! Some have made it with only two good pitches.
Anyway, welcome to the board. Your experience will be very valuable here. Even if some might disagree with you at times. That doesn't mean you are wrong.
MAriano has done it with one great pitch !!!!
Warzone,
Welcome.
I also have to disagree with some things that you have written. Some MLB pitchers can't even throw changes ups.
A pitchers bread and butter pitch should be his fastball. Depending on the other stuff will find you on the mound wondering what it's all about. Sliders definetly a lethal pitch, for a young high school pitcher, on his arm.
My understanding is that all pitches should be thrown from the same arm slot, repeatable deleivery everytime, smart batters pick up on which pitch will be thrown from different slots.
Welcome.
I also have to disagree with some things that you have written. Some MLB pitchers can't even throw changes ups.
A pitchers bread and butter pitch should be his fastball. Depending on the other stuff will find you on the mound wondering what it's all about. Sliders definetly a lethal pitch, for a young high school pitcher, on his arm.
My understanding is that all pitches should be thrown from the same arm slot, repeatable deleivery everytime, smart batters pick up on which pitch will be thrown from different slots.
TPM
Wrong once again !!!
The fast ball is not always the bread and butter pitch
For many it is a set up pitch for their off speed stuff
Understand what you want but many pitchers use different arm slots--watch Pedro as an example
Wrong once again !!!
The fast ball is not always the bread and butter pitch
For many it is a set up pitch for their off speed stuff
Understand what you want but many pitchers use different arm slots--watch Pedro as an example
Agree with TPM on arm slots. A repeatable delivery is critical.
Young pitchers should progress by mastering one pitch at a time. First the fastball. Without a good fastball, all is for not.
Some might disagree with me, but I think the second pitch to master is a good curve--age 14 on--then the change.
The reason I believe the change comes last is that it is actually the hardest pitch to master. First, most h.s. pitchers don't have good enough velocity to make the change effective or deceptive, so it makes sense waiting until they do. Second,
most younger players do not understand the main concept in throwing a good change. They modify their mechanics by slowing their arm motion and altering their delivery, which detracts from "repeatability", further detracting from the development of the most important pitch, the fastball. Third, without a blazing fastball, the change is just an ephus pitch that is a waste of time. And fourth, the curveball acts like a change anyway.
So I say master the fb, then the curve, then the change.
Young pitchers should progress by mastering one pitch at a time. First the fastball. Without a good fastball, all is for not.
Some might disagree with me, but I think the second pitch to master is a good curve--age 14 on--then the change.
The reason I believe the change comes last is that it is actually the hardest pitch to master. First, most h.s. pitchers don't have good enough velocity to make the change effective or deceptive, so it makes sense waiting until they do. Second,
most younger players do not understand the main concept in throwing a good change. They modify their mechanics by slowing their arm motion and altering their delivery, which detracts from "repeatability", further detracting from the development of the most important pitch, the fastball. Third, without a blazing fastball, the change is just an ephus pitch that is a waste of time. And fourth, the curveball acts like a change anyway.
So I say master the fb, then the curve, then the change.
Bum,
Let's agree to disagree on that one.
Let's agree to disagree on that one.
Bum,
I would only disagree with you in the sense that most high schoolers do not throw hard enough for the change to be effective. My son in high school and now in college was and is considered a soft tossing lefty. Yet both then and now his best pitch is his changeup. Reason being is that it has so much tailing movement that if speed deception does not fool the hitter, the movement does. I guess it would almost be like a screw ball. This has actually been his best pitch from the age of thirteen.
I would only disagree with you in the sense that most high schoolers do not throw hard enough for the change to be effective. My son in high school and now in college was and is considered a soft tossing lefty. Yet both then and now his best pitch is his changeup. Reason being is that it has so much tailing movement that if speed deception does not fool the hitter, the movement does. I guess it would almost be like a screw ball. This has actually been his best pitch from the age of thirteen.
CaDad and theygrowupfast, just so you know I am NOT saying the changeup is the least important pitch to learn. Far from that! Without a good changeup most pitchers will go by the wayside. I'm just saying I believe it is the hardest pitch to master.. so be patient. Focus on the most important pitch of all, the fastball, because without that everything else is not important, anyway.
Then work in a good curve because I believe it is easier to master than the change.
After you've got these two down, and you're now throwing harder, by this time your mechanics are hopefully set in stone and throwing a good change-up is just a matter of grips, not an alteration of the mechanics themselves. But too often youth pitchers don't get this, so they change their mechanics. And that defeats the fastball. Does that make sense?
Then work in a good curve because I believe it is easier to master than the change.
After you've got these two down, and you're now throwing harder, by this time your mechanics are hopefully set in stone and throwing a good change-up is just a matter of grips, not an alteration of the mechanics themselves. But too often youth pitchers don't get this, so they change their mechanics. And that defeats the fastball. Does that make sense?
I agree with THEYGROWUPFAST on the comment that most average highschoolers dont throw hard enough for the change up to be effective. Also why throw
a change up to a guy that will never get around on your fastball. The change up in highschool is the meat pitch for average hitters, but is effective against more advanced eager hitters at the highschool level. Also my comment on developing 4 good pitches is a career endeavor. I dont mean for anyone to sit down their 12 year old son and tell him hes going to need to pull the rabbit out of the hat or find another sport. It takes years to develope mutiple pitches and slot positions. Nothing shocks a good hitter more when in the middle of a game you give him a good sidearm fastball that he has never seen you throw. I agree that a person should work from the same throwing slot for 90 % of his pitches, but should reserve the right of confidence to throw a SHOCK AN AWE pitch. Each pitcher is unique and developes different pitches, but i feel any serious pitcher that wants to dominate at the college level should work on a SPECIAL PITCH outside of the common, fastball, curve, and change up. A knuckle, slider, or forkball can be a great way to keep the hitter guessing if you can throw it will accuracy and confidence. The whole idea in pitching and training for pitching is not to get complacent. Keep working on new things and new ways to get better,
Thanks for the nice comments.
Peace
a change up to a guy that will never get around on your fastball. The change up in highschool is the meat pitch for average hitters, but is effective against more advanced eager hitters at the highschool level. Also my comment on developing 4 good pitches is a career endeavor. I dont mean for anyone to sit down their 12 year old son and tell him hes going to need to pull the rabbit out of the hat or find another sport. It takes years to develope mutiple pitches and slot positions. Nothing shocks a good hitter more when in the middle of a game you give him a good sidearm fastball that he has never seen you throw. I agree that a person should work from the same throwing slot for 90 % of his pitches, but should reserve the right of confidence to throw a SHOCK AN AWE pitch. Each pitcher is unique and developes different pitches, but i feel any serious pitcher that wants to dominate at the college level should work on a SPECIAL PITCH outside of the common, fastball, curve, and change up. A knuckle, slider, or forkball can be a great way to keep the hitter guessing if you can throw it will accuracy and confidence. The whole idea in pitching and training for pitching is not to get complacent. Keep working on new things and new ways to get better,
Thanks for the nice comments.
Peace
What is the average velocity for the following:
junior in high school
senior in high school
college pitcher
major league pitcher
junior in high school
senior in high school
college pitcher
major league pitcher
