IMO, the most important is velocity, with some among of decent accuracy in the FB. Son, a freshman, has been throwing FB only for a few years and in the last summer camp, the HS coach taught him a simple CU grip and son has been able to pick it up real fast. The HS coach told the campers that he was only interested in FB and CU, no other junks, and he used son to demo to others how it's being done, inside FB and outside FB. I was so glad to find out that the HS coach had similar philosophy, he was a former D1 player. The only other stuff I probably need to talk to him is pitch count and see where his philosophy is on pitch count.
How about we just leave it as the answer is BOTH?!?!
Here is the dilema. You want every pitcher to reach his god given maximum velocity. If his genetic maximum is 90+, he will have at least a chance of making it to the highest level - regardless of accuracy. If however, a pitcher's genetic maximum is say 85 - regardless of how hard he works at it - if he has worked HARD on accuracy as well as velocity, he can be a successful pitcher in HS and even in college. If however, he focuses soley on velocity and never on accuracy, 85 with no accuracy will more than likely not get you to college and you may not even be a successful HS pitcher.
Add to that, if you are a 90+ guy and have worked HARD on accuracy, you could be a highly coveted MLB prospect. You can't lose by working on both. I don't think you can ignore either one of them. How's that?
Here is the dilema. You want every pitcher to reach his god given maximum velocity. If his genetic maximum is 90+, he will have at least a chance of making it to the highest level - regardless of accuracy. If however, a pitcher's genetic maximum is say 85 - regardless of how hard he works at it - if he has worked HARD on accuracy as well as velocity, he can be a successful pitcher in HS and even in college. If however, he focuses soley on velocity and never on accuracy, 85 with no accuracy will more than likely not get you to college and you may not even be a successful HS pitcher.
Add to that, if you are a 90+ guy and have worked HARD on accuracy, you could be a highly coveted MLB prospect. You can't lose by working on both. I don't think you can ignore either one of them. How's that?
Accuracy without velocity = No Bueno
Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
Velocity + accuracy… hmmm.
Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
Velocity + accuracy… hmmm.
bballman,
Great comments, agree with your points. Have to admit it's always fun to see a great "pitcher" who knows how to spot his pitches and set up hitters.....all the better if he can do it while throwing 88-90+.
Great comments, agree with your points. Have to admit it's always fun to see a great "pitcher" who knows how to spot his pitches and set up hitters.....all the better if he can do it while throwing 88-90+.
quote:Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.
One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.
Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.
One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.
Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.
PG is right on.
There was a pitcher in the cardinals organization who was a non drafted free agent in 2006. His name is Brandon Dickson. If you look at his player page you will see that he had many awards and organizational ones as well for his stats.
He was quite a story as he was not drafted out of HS or college and had remained in the organization for many years and moved up the ladder as other drafted players were released.
Looks like the perfect pitcher, his frame, 6'5". Good solid stuff, 2 seamer, decent cu and cb, but he lacked the power/movement to put away hitters at the ML level. Last year he watched much younger players move in front of him 9as he remained in AAA), either as a starter or a reliever. Where he had accuracy, they had the 95+ not as accurate FB.
As PG suggests, as you move up, it's harder to fool the better patient hitters. Pitching is one of those things where you can be on point one day and way off the next. You need to have enough weapons (as a starter especially) to be able to get through your required outings or you are gone. Pitching, is hard work and in college and in the pros you are constantly working on your "stuff". You have to in order to keep your job.
BTW, Dickson lost his 40 man spot but has been given permission to pitch in Japan. After 3-4 seasons in AAA there just isn't anywhere to go anymore. Maybe another Vogelsong story, if you do not have the velocity you have to be accurate every time you take the mound.
Can anyone tell me how many ML pitchers are accurate consistantly?
Not that this takes anything away from HS baseball or good HS pitchers, but keep in mind that it is what it is. If a player desires to play beyond HS at the highest level (the ML field), he must develop velocity.
JMO.
He was quite a story as he was not drafted out of HS or college and had remained in the organization for many years and moved up the ladder as other drafted players were released.
Looks like the perfect pitcher, his frame, 6'5". Good solid stuff, 2 seamer, decent cu and cb, but he lacked the power/movement to put away hitters at the ML level. Last year he watched much younger players move in front of him 9as he remained in AAA), either as a starter or a reliever. Where he had accuracy, they had the 95+ not as accurate FB.
As PG suggests, as you move up, it's harder to fool the better patient hitters. Pitching is one of those things where you can be on point one day and way off the next. You need to have enough weapons (as a starter especially) to be able to get through your required outings or you are gone. Pitching, is hard work and in college and in the pros you are constantly working on your "stuff". You have to in order to keep your job.
BTW, Dickson lost his 40 man spot but has been given permission to pitch in Japan. After 3-4 seasons in AAA there just isn't anywhere to go anymore. Maybe another Vogelsong story, if you do not have the velocity you have to be accurate every time you take the mound.
Can anyone tell me how many ML pitchers are accurate consistantly?
Not that this takes anything away from HS baseball or good HS pitchers, but keep in mind that it is what it is. If a player desires to play beyond HS at the highest level (the ML field), he must develop velocity.
JMO.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno
I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.
One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.
Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.
I absolutely agree with everything you said. My post was in reference to the OP “Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers”. There are certainly many out there have or had great velocity and were given an opportunity to prove their ability to control the game and command the strike zone, however there are many more out there that have, let’s call it, “above average velocity” for their age that hit everything except the strike zone.
It's a matter of choice and philosophy in my son's case. When he came up from LL small field to the big field, he wasn't dominant pitcher with his FB anymore. He could drop his arms to create more movements and go with CB and sliders to gain back the advantage, or continue to work on his FB, inside and outside FB pitch. We pick the later one, that is to continue to go with FB with placement and rely on the fielders to help out. In the long run, he will grow taller and stronger and will gain back his FB advantage over the hitters. So, IMO, it is what type of pitch one wants to focus on and work on and that's what he will be good at.
Brent Strom had an interesting take on this. There was a small study done involving 45 women, the criteria being they could have no athletic background. They split the group up into 3 smaller groups...A) Mechanical training and empahsis on hitting spots B) Some Mechanical Training and they were told to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer C) all they were told was to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer. At the end of the 8 week study Group C had the highest velocity and threw the most strikes. Group B had the second highest velocity and threw as many strikes as Group A. Group A had the lowest velocity and was tied with group B in strikes thrown. He went on to state the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes. However the arm will not figure out how to develop velocity if it is never trained to let it rip.
Wow, makes you think. Makes sense though. When my son struggles with control, my advice is "just stride and throw, don't try to throw strikes, just throw it at the glove". I'm reconsidering my advice. Sometimes pitchers think too much and sometimes I think too much. 
Funny thing is he started the clinic by asking the following question. Why are there so many 5'11 Dominicans that throw 95 and so many 6'4 Americans that throw 85? His answer was as follows. In the Dominican they just tell you to pick up the ball and throw it as hard as you can at the target while in American all they worry about is mechanics, hitting spots, and making things look pretty.
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Brent Strom had an interesting take on this. There was a small study done involving 45 women, the criteria being they could have no athletic background. They split the group up into 3 smaller groups...A) Mechanical training and empahsis on hitting spots B) Some Mechanical Training and they were told to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer C) all they were told was to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer. At the end of the 8 week study Group C had the highest velocity and threw the most strikes. Group B had the second highest velocity and threw as many strikes as Group A. Group A had the lowest velocity and was tied with group B in strikes thrown. He went on to state the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes. However the arm will not figure out how to develop velocity if it is never trained to let it rip.
I find that very fascinating because he is the pitching guru for the cardinals.
Now I understand why those guys are told to throw as hard as they can and not worry about location. That can be pretty hard for a young pitcher trying to get noticed by his stats, but in reality, the guys (rhp) that have the velo get the call.
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes.
I always gave son one baseball to pitch to me. If he missed, he had to run after it. Now, he can knock a fly off a ... well, almost.
If you want to throw harder you have to practice throwing harder.
@ Sultan, LOL, My son is 8 and I do the same thing.
@ Skylark, agree 100%
@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.
@ Skylark, agree 100%
@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.
ttpm---please be advised that mlkb pitcher would not be amlb pitcher if not consistently qaccurate
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:…I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.
That could be true, but then again it may well not be. It would make a much better case if there were more proof than the anecdotal evidence from individuals, perhaps in the form of how players were trained relative to their performance.
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.
I am not sure I get your point, please explain.
I have seen young pitchers who have stellar ERA's but their velo for FB is just hitting 90, 91 get called up and get creamed, then you will see a 23 year old hitting 100 not as accurate get hitters out.
The higher you go up in velocity, the less accurate you have to be and you do not have to be 100% accurate to be a ML pitcher.
It's just an observation. I am in total agreement that if you teach the thought process to throw as hard as you can and not worry about accuracy for young pitchers they will figure it out later on.
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
tpm uu must be kidding
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
Got ya, I agree. The lower velo guy has to be more accurate.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm uu must be kidding
Kidding for what TR? You want to explain what it is you are trying to discredit me for.
I read somewhere once if you asked a ML pitcher how many balls landed where he intended them to actually go, he will tell you about 2%. I am talking average player, not the guys getting paid the big bucks to be more accurate.
You might want to ask a ML pitcher you might know if they would agree with that or not.
TR, is this the same thing like pitchers don't have to throw a bull pen at showcases because they might hurt themselves?
You never explained that one fully, if you do not allow that how do they get ready for a game?
How would they even know what pitches are working for them that day if they haven't practiced them? Do you just tell them to get out there and throw the ball?
You never explained that one fully, if you do not allow that how do they get ready for a game?
How would they even know what pitches are working for them that day if they haven't practiced them? Do you just tell them to get out there and throw the ball?
tpm what are nu talking about----if anything we warm pitchers up longer than needed
Looking back, it seemed like eldest son and I did it the Dominican way. When he was 7 and 8, he would drag me to the park on weekends and asked me to be the batter and he pitched to me as hard as he could. He beamed me countless of times until I had enough and said one more time we will go home. Still remembered the bruises below and above my knees when I could not skip fast enough. Since then I have retired as a batter, don't like the feeling having a ball screaming toward me with only a bat to defend myself, just play catch.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm what are nu talking about----if anything we warm pitchers up longer than needed
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
one reason we do not do bull pensessions in our events is because the kids overthrow to impress the guns and this leads to arm injuries
Nov 19, 2012 3:53 PM
Pitching, Resting what's the best route to take?
So which is it?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....
If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.
Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
Got ya, I agree. The lower velo guy has to be more accurate.
TPM, I agree with this but I think at the pro level, anyway, velocity doesn't matter much until it's 95-96+. They're all good fastball hitters and can adjust to the timing of a fastball.
I guess what I'm saying is there is a "range" there where the fastball speed is immaterial, perhaps 88-94, and location is far more important. Once things ramp up, to 95-96+ location is less important. (Perhaps 93-94 is plus velocity at the lower levels.)
Since most pro/MLB pitchers, save closers, are not 95-96 on a consistent basis, the art of pitching is still a critical factor at the pro level. 3 solid pitches for starters, 2 for setup and closers. And for closers, velocity is critical.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
TPM, I agree with this but I think at the pro level, anyway, velocity doesn't matter much until it's 95-96+. They're all good fastball hitters and can adjust to the timing of a fastball.
Velocity may not matter until one reaches the big field, as I have noted I have seen more accurate guys stay behind while the higher velo guys move forward, especially for releivers, as we know starters need to be more diverse.
Also why hitters progress and some do not, they get to a point where they can't hit the FB.
It's been a good discussion.
We have gotten away from the OP's original inquires which is what young pithcers should work on, and what goals to work towards that will get them beyond HS, college.
young pitchers swhould work on location and movement
Movement on the fastball is critical with average velocity pitchers. The more velocity the less movement is required. The less velocity the more movement is required. Straight fastballs are the easiest pitch to hit unless the pitcher has unusual high velocity.
Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.
Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.
So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?
Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.
Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.
Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.
Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.
Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.
Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.
So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?
Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.
Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.
Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.
Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.
Awesome post!
We need a PG corner!!!!!
We need a PG corner!!!!!
quote:
Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite.
I cant really remember a time when winning games when son was 12 was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc..
Not really sure what you meant. Could you explain a bit better?
Not to speak for PG, but an example of my own was once in a league game, the coach had my son throw nothing but changeups for three innings. He just wanted him to get used to the feel and grip in a game situation. Work on location and movement. This was a 12U league. It helped his pitching a lot. It was in the teams best interest for him to throw something else.
On a side note, I was glad the coach told me in advance. I would have had a heart attack thinking my son was hurt with the reduced velocity.
On a side note, I was glad the coach told me in advance. I would have had a heart attack thinking my son was hurt with the reduced velocity.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:I cant really remember a time when winning games when son was 12 was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc…
Are you saying that: “was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc.” when he was in a game that was lost too?
It seems to me that simply playing the game is a part of that development whether the final result was a win or a loss. As far as I know, just before the 1st pitch of a game is thrown, there are very few times when the main goal of either team is to lose the game. Even the worst of teams want to win, even though they may not expect to win. The main issue it seems to me, is how “important” the win might be.
FI, if it’s the 4th game of the WS and one team is down 3 games to 0, its obvious that winning the game is much more important to that team as it is to the other one. Likewise, if it’s the 4th game of the HS season and it isn’t a league game, a “grudge” game, or a long time rivalry, the outcome of the game isn’t as “important” as if it were.
All games have a different value, and they should. A lopsided win against a very weak team isn’t nearly as fulfilling as winning a close game against a very strong team. In fact, a close loss to a very strong team may well be much more fulfilling than that lopsided win.
In the end, each game is really nothing more than another step in the journey, and all games shouldn’t be expected to be given equal weight. Just play the game, because whether or not your team wins, the sky won’t fall.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.
At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.
91 mph righty a senior this year 36th round orioles..he really put on the mph's over the last two years..big kid projects well
Skylark,
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Skylark,
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
I have seen this many, many times in youth baseball. There are numerous "stud" pitchers around in the early years that were so obviously overthrown, or WAY too many curveballs that are no longer playing because of arm issues.
When we went to Cooperstown, there was a kid from a nearby town that threw complete games in back to back to back days. His dad was a coach for the team and let it happen. In fact encouraged it. I don't even think he lasted until HS before his arm was done.
Conversely, my son only threw 10 innings all week with a 0.00 ERA. He was obviously the best pitcher on our team and we would have won much more with him on the mound, but we (myself and the head coach - I was the pitching coach) made the decision to not over throw him. We felt it was much more important that he stay healthy than for us to win at Cooperstown.
It happens all the time. Some people are ignorant of the dangers and some people know, but choose to ignore it. Many times those people tend to think that it will not happen to their kid. Somehow they are different.
I think perceptions are changing, but there are still those out there who will want to win at all costs. There is nothing wrong with wanting to win. It's the "at all costs" that's the problem.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Skylark,
Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.
I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
Okay, I see what you are saying. We took our kid off a team when he was 11 because we thought the coaches pitched him too much. Our kid threw a lot back then, more than pretty much anyone else around. He did however gain the uncanny ability to throw any pitch he wanted for a strike. That came from throwing a lot at an early age under pressure I believe. So, it wasn't all bad.
Bum, Jr. barely even pitched until he was 13 years old. We had a very competitive NABF league in town when he was 11, 12 y.o. I can think of only two kids in that league that went onto college, one in the pros right now. A bunch of them, though, had arm surgery and ruined any chance they had.
I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.
I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.
