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230 replies

Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers.

S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
Bum, Jr. barely even pitched until he was 13 years old. We had a very competitive NABF league in town when he was 11, 12 y.o. I can think of only two kids in that league that went onto college, one in the pros right now. A bunch of them, though, had arm surgery and ruined any chance they had.

I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.


Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.


Quite the contrary, in fact. Scientific and historical evidence claim the exact opposite.
Last edited by J H
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.


Quite the contrary, in fact. Scientific and historical evidence claim the exact opposite.


I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.

Prove it!
S Skylark100+ posts
I have never heard of a doctor who diagnosed something such as a ucl rupture in a late teenager or college player to say- "yep, lil Johnny tore it seven years ago in a little league game and now his arm is shot".

Pretty much everyone and their dog knows by now that overuse "at any age" is the most harmful thing for a pitchers arm. For some it may be 40 pitches and for others it may be a 140. So many factors go into each individual case.

But merely because you are younger than someone else when you start pitching does in no way mean you will ruin your arm quicker. It would be interesting to find out when the average professional player started pitching when they were younger. I would tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers began pitching at a little league age. I would also tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers were no older than 11 or 12 when they started pitching.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
It is funny how those that put there sons out their early defend the position of too early not being a contributing factor to possible injury.

My son began at 8 with limited innings and allowed to throw a 2 and 4 seam only with a change up added after 10 and no cb in games until HS. If to do over again I think that we would keep him off the mound until late pre HS and not grade school. It was about winning but never about doing so at a price for injury. Pitching the few games a week they had was shared by all, almost everyone pitched on the team, no one person did more than others. One doesn't have to pitch early to learn what to throw in any count or situation, all that changes as the pitcher matures and eventually plays against better competition.


If you ask most mlb pitchers about it most will not allow their sons to pitch (or more innings) until 13 or 14 (and then maybe just start throwing off speed). Not until you or your son sustains injury does one fully understand the ramifications. How many ML pitchers have pitcher sons in the game? Anyone know?

Young pitchers should only pitch minimal in relief until 13 or 14 and take appropriate time off from baseball until HS. The bottom line is that it makes no difference what one does before they are in HS. Take it slow and don't worry about being the number one in your league. That is not going to get you a college scholarship.

After a players first season in proball, they are asked (or sometimes told) what they want to develop or what the organization wants you to use in games. The minor leagues is about development so why shouldn't youth bb be about that as well. In fact that is all it should be about. Young pitchers do not need 4-5 pitches in their arsenal, because you don't even need that when you get in the pros or college. I do believe this is big cause for injury, doing too much too young.
Last edited by TPM
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
…Young pitchers should only pitch minimal in relief until 13 or 14 and take appropriate time off from baseball until HS….


Its pretty amazing how similar that is to what Mike Marshall’s been saying for many years, and how much more accepted its become. Its good to know that common sense still has a foothold in the game, albeit a shaky one. Wink
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.

Prove it!


Roll Eyes

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years." Then I asked him, "do you think it had something to do with me pitching at a young age, or overuse in the recent past?" to which he responded, "both, definitely."

My doctor was some guy named James Andrews.

So, what's your source?
Last edited by J H
BishopLeftiesDadBishopLeftiesDad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Movement on the fastball is critical with average velocity pitchers. The more velocity the less movement is required. The less velocity the more movement is required. Straight fastballs are the easiest pitch to hit unless the pitcher has unusual high velocity.

Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.

Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.

So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?

Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.

Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.

Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO

Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.

Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.

PG this is exactly what I was looking for. If you do not mind I will use (steal) this. Plus 1 if I could.
BishopLeftiesDadBishopLeftiesDad10,000+ posts
My son did not start pitching till he was in Middle school. And then he was really the third or fourth pitcher. Never had the velocity of the other guys. He didn't start being a regular in the rotation or relief until he was a sophomore.

When he was younger I always wished he would have pitched more. But as the years moved on, things worked out.

We still see his coach from 6th grade now and again, and he always comments, "I didn't know what I had." Frankly now looking back I am glad he did not.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.

Prove it!


Roll Eyes

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years." Then I asked him, "do you think it had something to do with me pitching at a young age, or overuse in the recent past?" to which he responded, "both, definitely."

My doctor was some guy named James Andrews.

So, what's your source?


You said you had scientific evidence. I dont care about opinion no matter who its from. Where is the study- the official scientific evidence in a peer reviewed journal? Find your article and we can debate it from there. As for your injury stemming from throwing at an early age? Since we are just throwing out opinions, I highly doubt you tore your UCL when you were 9 and it just never recovered but got worse through the years. From the papers I have read, it is almost impossible to tear your UCL when you are 9 from pitching. The required velocity just isnt there at that early of an age to cause the type of injury requring surgery. Now supposing your UCL was getting damaged through the years which more than likely wasnt until you were a few more years older than 9, it was more than likely due to "overuse" rather than just starting at an early age. You even stated that your doctor said it was from many years of overuse.

Do you honestly think you would have never ruptured your ucl if you had waited even a few more years? I highly doubt it.
Last edited by Skylark
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.


Probably they were.

Being a LL pitcher doesn't guarantee you still will be pitching in HS or college.

I live in a state where the sun shines almost 365 days a year. That means a lot more games perhaps where you come from. As you are aware many pitchers from here get drafted and drafted high. Most of the pitchers in my sons grad class are not pitching anymore or have had surgery in some form of another that have set them back. And it's not always the arm.

The bottom line from what I see is that most pitchers break down at some point in their career. Hopefully it should be later than sooner. When the pitcher establishes himself as a prospect or reaches the higher levels. My opinion is that parents and players should do everything they can to make sure that injury doesn't occur at crucial times, that would be during the recruiting phase or in college, or in the early stages of milb before the player reaches the big field, this eliminates chance of making it by a huge margin unless the team has put a significant amount in your bank accout. Unfortunetly once you lose your spot it's tough to find your way back (ask Brian Wilson), no matter how good you are. For those that get to the pro level (and you have spoken about how your son desires to play there some day) it's a long climb up the ladder before you get to where you want to go for at least 90% of those that show the ability to get there, and injury doesn't make it any easier.

I am not here to argue but just to give advice on what I beleive should be a safe journey for young pitchers. Lots of good medical stuff going on but the bottom line is often injury ends careers.

I don't disagree that overuse is most likely a very big cause for injury. There is a huge risk involved in being a pitcher, the whole idea is to minimize that risk level to level.

JMO
Last edited by TPM
MidAtlanticDadMidAtlanticDad10,000+ posts
Skylark,

I went through this with my 2015 when he was 13. Now he's a catcher.

First, I heartily agree with you that there are too many factors involved in elbow and shoulder injuries to point to a single factor, or even multiple known factors. All the studies I've ever read say the same thing. There simply aren't enough comprehensive studies yet.

However, I don't think Josh's doctor told him that he "tore" the ucl at 9, he probably surmised that the ligament was gradually damaged over many years. The ucl is not likely to tear until the growth plate has fused to the bone. I know several young pitchers who have torn that plate loose. One had surgery to screw it back in place, the others let it heal on it's own.

Now as far as most college pitchers starting at a young age, I'll give you an intentionally outrageous analogy. All of the elderly smokers that I know started smoking at a young age, and they're still going strong. :-)

I've compiled some reading material over the years. Let us know if this is what you're looking for.

http://www.hopkinsortho.org/ucl.html
"These stresses create microscopic tears in the ligament, which can add up to one big tear over time. (Figure 2) This gradual stress causes the ligament to stretch and become too long. Once it gets too long, it no longer holds the bones tightly enough during throwing activities."

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Too...eball%20Pitchers.pdf
Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers
"In the age group 9 to 14 years, a high pitch count and also breaking pitches (curveball, slider) were significantly associated with an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. The study was statistically underpowered to show a significant risk of joint pain related to pitching mechanics. An increasing pitch count and cumulative count through the season was linearly associated with an increased risk of joint pain. It was therefore recommended that not only should pitch count be limited but season cumulative pitches as well."

http://www.littleleague.org/As...s/media/UNCStudy.pdf
The Learning Curve: Little League Seeks to Address Concerns, Answer Questions about Curveballs and Overuse

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1716.full.pdf
Biomechanics of the Shoulder in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41203/router.asp
"LLE (Little League Elbow) may be used to describe a spectrum of disorders from a stress reaction to avulsion fractures of the medial epicondyle to osteochondritis dissecans of the capitellum and loose bodies. It occurs most often between 8 to 15 years of age."
"After physeal fusion, the ulnar collateral ligament and ulnar nerve are more likely to be injured."
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Skylark,

I went through this with my 2015 when he was 13. Now he's a catcher.

First, I heartily agree with you that there are too many factors involved in elbow and shoulder injuries to point to a single factor, or even multiple known factors. All the studies I've ever read say the same thing. There simply aren't enough comprehensive studies yet.

However, I don't think Josh's doctor told him that he "tore" the ucl at 9, he probably surmised that the ligament was gradually damaged over many years. The ucl is not likely to tear until the growth plate has fused to the bone. I know several young pitchers who have torn that plate loose. One had surgery to screw it back in place, the others let it heal on it's own.

Now as far as most college pitchers starting at a young age, I'll give you an intentionally outrageous analogy. All of the elderly smokers that I know started smoking at a young age, and they're still going strong. :-)

I've compiled some reading material over the years. Let us know if this is what you're looking for.

http://www.hopkinsortho.org/ucl.html
"These stresses create microscopic tears in the ligament, which can add up to one big tear over time. (Figure 2) This gradual stress causes the ligament to stretch and become too long. Once it gets too long, it no longer holds the bones tightly enough during throwing activities."

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Too...eball%20Pitchers.pdf
Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers
"In the age group 9 to 14 years, a high pitch count and also breaking pitches (curveball, slider) were significantly associated with an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. The study was statistically underpowered to show a significant risk of joint pain related to pitching mechanics. An increasing pitch count and cumulative count through the season was linearly associated with an increased risk of joint pain. It was therefore recommended that not only should pitch count be limited but season cumulative pitches as well."

http://www.littleleague.org/As...s/media/UNCStudy.pdf
The Learning Curve: Little League Seeks to Address Concerns, Answer Questions about Curveballs and Overuse

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1716.full.pdf
Biomechanics of the Shoulder in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41203/router.asp
"LLE (Little League Elbow) may be used to describe a spectrum of disorders from a stress reaction to avulsion fractures of the medial epicondyle to osteochondritis dissecans of the capitellum and loose bodies. It occurs most often between 8 to 15 years of age."
"After physeal fusion, the ulnar collateral ligament and ulnar nerve are more likely to be injured."


They are all good articles and I also am aware of overuse injuries. The articles main evidence points to overuse which we all know as being the main factor in injury. There really is no direct link between when a pitcher starts throwing to injury. The only direct link we know of through the various studies such as ASMI's is pitchers who pitch year round who also pitch while fatigued or injured. This isnt an age related problem as to "when" pitchers start throwing but in actuality an "overuse" issue. Other factors such as improper or lack of conditioning, lack of proper rest, poor mechanics, poor diet and exercise also contribute to injury issues. Young pitchers who get proper rest, have good mechanics, not overused, etc, are in my opinion, much healthier when they do get older into high school and beyond. I hear it over and over again with parents of injured players or from older injured players themselves wishing they would have waited a few more years before they started pitching as if their "age" was somehow the main factor. I dont buy into it and I think it is an excuse for the true issues. How many of these injured pitchers pitched at some point through obvious pain? How many of them played more than 8 months out of the year? How many of them pitched in games while fatigued? How many of these injured pitchers were throwing over 80mph leading up to the injuries?

According to the studies, all of those things were the "main" factors leading up to surgery. Maybe they need to stress the real reasons such as I wish I hadnt allowed myself to pitch in that tournament with such severe pain or- I should have told coach to remove me in those games when I was so fatigued and tired. Or- I really shouldnt of played in all those expensive travel leagues year round just to hopefully get noticed.etc, etc, etc.

Back when my son was 11 I saw the writing plain as day and promptly put him on a different team that wasnt going to abuse his arm just for a win. Parents and players at "any age" regardless of how many seasons they have under their belt, need to be aware of the causes, symptoms, etc, that lead to injury. Those articles you posted are good articles. I HAVE read much of ASMI's work and believe most of their research. The trends they are finding are breaking down all of the previous myths we have heard in the past from myriads of parents and coaches. It all comes down to pretty much one word- "overuse". That can happen at any age. Injury has everything to do with overuse and not he age at when one starts throwing.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.


My son threw 62 at age 12. So what.


Just sayin that just because a kid starts pitching at 9 doesnt mean it decreases his chances later on as you seem to have implied earlier.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Skylark,
Its put out in front of you and you still argue the point.
All factors can lead to injury age included.

Your son's situation a good example. Young pitcher maybe not biologically prepared for the overuse that coach subjected him to and your ignoramce to allow it at that age.

All are contributing factors to injury.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Sometimes common sense prevails over scientific knowledge.

Not all children at 8,9,10 are biologically created equal. Lots of growth plate injuries out there and reported here the past few years.

So yes age absolutely can be a contributing factor, maybe not the only one but can contribute.

Those past LL where do they attend? Are they future pro prospects?. How many past World championship LL play the game at the pro level?
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
Skylark,
Its put out in front of you and you still argue the point.
All factors can lead to injury age included.

Your son's situation a good example. Young pitcher maybe not biologically prepared for the overuse that coach subjected him to and your ignoramce to allow it at that age.

All are contributing factors to injury.


I agree there are lots of contributing factors and that age does come into play in cases of overuse. My son started pitching at 9. Every year he was always one of the hardest throwing pitchers for his age. Each year as he increases in velocity we watch it all the more closely because injury is most likely to occur the harder they throw. Not very many kids need surgery who throw below 75mph. My son has always had a 4 month break from pitching every year, some years more than that. I am confident to this point that we have done a good job of protecting his arm and giving him plenty of rest opportunities. Some seem to strongly argue that just because one starts pitching earlier they are at higher risk for injury when they get to high school and beyond. Take my son for example- Why should this theory hold true? Its as if people think that at this point his arm is already injured or weakened dramatically. After all, that is the only way the theory would hold true. But, their theory only hods true with kids who are abused and overused year in, year out. So, its not an age thing at all but rather how much they have been overused and beaten up year after year without proper rest and recovery and proper conditioning.
MidAtlanticDadMidAtlanticDad10,000+ posts
Skylark,

If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.

I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.

Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:…But, their theory only hods true with kids who are abused and overused year in, year out. So, its not an age thing at all but rather how much they have been overused and beaten up year after year without proper rest and recovery and proper conditioning.


Here are a couple flaws in your argument.

1) Every kid is different.
2) There is no generally accepted definition of what “overused” is.

The main problem is the lack of empirical evidence. You have your story, I have mine, and millions of others have theirs, but there’s darn little anyone could scientifically sift through to try to come up with answers. The answer is simple and wouldn’t require anyone changing anything they do. When a kid starts to pitch, keep track of the date and the number of pitches. That’s all it would take to create a database that could be studied by anyone who took the time to do it.

I’ve gone on and on about that for many years, but it seems like people won’t do it because they’re afraid of what will show up. As long as there aren’t any facts to interpret, every opinion is as valid as every other one, and that ends up as justification for continuing along the same lines.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The answer is simple and wouldn’t require anyone changing anything they do. When a kid starts to pitch, keep track of the date and the number of pitches. That’s all it would take to create a database that could be studied by anyone who took the time to do it.

I’ve gone on and on about that for many years, but it seems like people won’t do it because they’re afraid of what will show up. As long as there aren’t any facts to interpret, every opinion is as valid as every other one, and that ends up as justification for continuing along the same lines.


Right, Stats. Unwillingness to face the truth must be the reason no one is undertaking to train every coach and every parent of each of the half million or so kids who start playing ball each year to document every pitch they throw, monitor their development as pitchers, track their medical histories, factor in all the other variables that motivate baseball players to stop playing, compel compliance, and standardize the collection effort across every Little League, Pony, Dixie, Babe Ruth, scholastic, travel, legion, and other baseball organization. I mean, your answer is so "simple," it's just amazing nobody hasn't just set aside a few hours one winter afternoon and got this little project off the ground. Yeah, it's gotta be fear of the answers. Otherwise it would be done already. Nothing else makes sense.
B bball123100+ posts
Great discussion here, I could learn from you all of your experiences. Looking back, all those wins and accolades were immaterial in LL, and parents should pay extra attentions to arm care as the little kids would not know the consequences at such a young age. The kids usually try to please the adults and as a result would play hurt when told to, they are too young to speak up. Still remember when son came to me about pain in the elbow when he was young. He then showed me if he throw when this other arm slot, it would not hurt, etc.. I let him pitch another game or two but the problem was still there. So I read as much as I could and sprung into action. No more pitching, had x-ray, PT, and MRI at the end just to make sure everything was ok. Then rest for another 6 months. Each time when son was asked to join a travel team, I hesitated. I was told many times that son should join the best competitive tournaments as much as possible but I still hesitated. Looking back, I am glad that I did hesitated and son did not join any of the travel teams. My take of the debate is that the younger the kid start pitching, the more closely the parents need to pay attention to overuse. Take every pain and ache that the kid is complaining seriously. Don't tell them to rub should sand/mud/dust on the arms and everything will be ok - it doesn't work scientifically.
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
Right, Stats. Unwillingness to face the truth must be the reason no one is undertaking to train every coach and every parent of each of the half million or so kids who start playing ball each year to document every pitch they throw, monitor their development as pitchers, track their medical histories, factor in all the other variables that motivate baseball players to stop playing, compel compliance, and standardize the collection effort across every Little League, Pony, Dixie, Babe Ruth, scholastic, travel, legion, and other baseball organization. I mean, your answer is so "simple," it's just amazing nobody hasn't just set aside a few hours one winter afternoon and got this little project off the ground. Yeah, it's gotta be fear of the answers. Otherwise it would be done already. Nothing else makes sense.


LMAO, Swampboy.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
We have to keep in mind that if there is 12 year old baseball, there will be 12 year olds pitching.

What would be very unusual at that age is if a kid was a pitcher only. Usually the pitcher is one of the better players as well. This in itself can create problems if the leadership isn't aware. Especially when it comes to bringing a new pitcher in from a position without proper warm up. The jury is still out on throwing curveballs, though I personally wouldn't allow them at that age. However, there's no doubt that the harder someone throws the more risk there is of injury. (at any age)

The reward - you have been blessed with the ability to throw gas.

The risk - because of this gift you're more likely to be injured.

Of course, in most cases they can fix injuries these days, But they can't fix a weak arm.

I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.

Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.

I applaud all those coaches out there that understand.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Son threw hard at a young age. He threw harder in middle school and harder in HS and harder in college and much harder now.

I would like to point out that I know just as many soft tossers who have had injuries as harder throwers have. When you pitch there is ALWAYS risks involved.

My opinion as a parent whose son is still in the game at 27 is that you minimize the risks involved and the heck with all the scientific stuff because all bodies are different and all circumstances are different as well.

Once again PG offers great sound advice and good stuff from MidAtlanticDad. I too have a laundry list of things we should have not done, and to do over again it wouldn't be the same. We were ever so careful, no year round pitching, limited innings, no cb before certain age, sliders, good mechanics, loose arm, great college experience with one of the best college pc in the country who didn't abuse, showcases, yet injury occurred. Did we do anything wrong, I don't think so, but beginning at age 8,9 we would change in a heartbeat.

Skylark,

You are aware that 9 year olds are having surgery to repair injuries and many youth players are having to shut down the game due to growth plate injuries. Not saying all of those are pitchers. If they were, could an injury have been avoided if the player didn't begin pitching until maybe 12,13,14? FYI, pitching is a cr ap shoot, no matter what you feel you may have done right, you may not know that until your son is 18, or 25.

Swampboy, thanks for the chuckle. Smile
Last edited by TPM
B bball123100+ posts
quote:
I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.

Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.


I had a story on that. There was a kid, a good friend of my son, that is fairly big and his family(including grandparents) is a big into baseball. At the end of a LL season, I kind of saying to them that he would dominate next year when he grow even bigger. The grandpa said he would be training off season to get better. Next year, the kid came back and was throwing sub-marine. I was horrified but I gently asked where he had learned that. His parents said he was taking lessons from the pro and the pro recommended sub-marine so he could be more effective. It's probably a case of trying to win at all cost, but the sad part was that as the season went on, he became less and less effective. He barely pitched in the all star games. That is probably why some said being a stud at a young age would not translate to being one in HS/college. If done properly, it could translate to one, again depending on the growth rate, genes and working hard.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
Swampboy,

You can believe what you like. I assure you I’ve heard the same claptrap and many others over and over. I said nothing about training coaches, although it would be a good thing. I also said nothing about monitoring their development, although that too would also be a great benefit. And too, I said nothing about tracking medical histories, although that would likely be the most valuable thing of all.

You can make fun of it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a simple thing that would be a great benefit. So why wouldn’t you want to see it happen? Is it too complicated for you or is it too hard? Or perhaps is because you like having your opinion valued the same as someone like Dr. Andrews. After all, as long as there’s no proof he’s right, it makes you an expert too.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
Stats,
You totally missed my point.
I was teasing you for making:
a) a ridiculous assertion: namely, that it would simple to compile a useful database on pitch counts; and
b) a slander on the motives of everyone who isn't taking your advice to stop the world and fetch you some numbers to play with.

As far as all that stuff you say you didn't mention: yeah, that's sort of my point. A database full of pitch count info is useless without all that other stuff you need to identify the independent variables. That's why your simple solution is unworkable. It has nothing to do with unwillingness to face the truth and everything about understanding how hard it would be to act on your advice.

For now, I think the best we can do in the absence of large, controlled longitudinal studies that regress out the other variables is about what Dr. Andrews seems to advocate, which is prudent caution based on the qualified observations and associations he can make, and what PGStaff advocates, which is more attention to development over competition in the early years.

I will grant you one important point. You are correct that there is a vocal minority that doesn't want to face the truth. There are people here who protest that because we can't double-blind prove that x number of pitches or curve balls before y years of age will cause a catastrophic injury in this child this weekend we should just ignore all the tentative insights people like Dr. Andrews have carefully drawn, resist pitch limits for youth pitchers, and generally let prepubescent boys throw as many curves as it takes to win a trophy now. Often, the coaches who most stridently protest that we can't know the limit for any one pitcher are also the ones who insist they do know their ace has a "rubber arm" and is immune from the risks. I am not one of those people.

I'm in the camp that says pitching carries inherent risks that are generally understood but unknown for individual pitchers; we should apply the general knowledge that is available and manage that risk cautiously for all pitchers and very cautiously for young and immature pitchers. As pitchers get older, they can participate more actively in deciding how to manage their individual risk in the context of their goals.
Last edited by Swampboy
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Skylark,

If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.

I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.

Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.


My personal opinion is that youth age pitchers who train right, are not overused, and throw at a healthy level are more prepared, more conditioned and more injury resistant when they do get older. If anyone knows me, they know I am about te most **** person around when it comes to proper conditioning and protecting and educating pitchers. They would also know that I advocate a lot of throwing and less of actual pitching. My firm belief is that pitchers are most susceptible to incurring injury when pitching in games especially with short rest periods in between outings. I would love to see more coaches adopt shorter pit c h counts for pitchers and substitute in its place more short practice bullpens and off days for general throwing and conditioning drills.

I long for the day when they will have some type of portable MRI machine or something that could cheaply and quickly look at the integrity of muscles, ligaments, bones and tendons right there in the dugout/ clubhouse. You could pretty much eliminate over 90% of pitching injuries at the college and pro level.

Each kid is different, but coaches and often times- parents do push their kids to pitch when the injury factors are greatly multiplied. You see this especially if lil Johnny is talented and plays in multiple leagues, plays year round and also attends lots of showcases and camps. Kids need to be taught from an early age that they themselves are ultimately in control and that they need to have a certain level of knowledge and fear instilled in them to know when the risk factors begin to dramatically multiply and that they need to shut the arm down. There are days now when my son will flat out tell the coach he isnt throwing or even take himself out of games. They completely respect him for that.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
What is meant by proper training as a youth pitcher?

Do you still advocate after pitching that a young pitcher go home and throw more against the wall?

You seem to have made a 360 degree turn since you came here many years ago. If I recall you also felt it was ok to pitch on consecutive days.
Last edited by TPM
BumBum1,000+ posts
A 12 y.o. pitcher with clean mechanics is almost unheard of. I didn't know of any. So how does he throw "hard" without doing damage?

I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.

Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
A 12 y.o. pitcher with clean mechanics is almost unheard of. I didn't know of any. So how does he throw "hard" without doing damage?

I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.

Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.


Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.

There have been myriads of pitchers who threw hard at 12 and were also still pitching at 22 who only needed a knife to cut their steak. You certainly have to show proof that that youth pitchers are actually damaging their arms just because they throw at an early age.
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