VT Decommit

Well, if it were my son, and he showed possible first round talent, depending on who was recruiting him and wouldnt abuse him, if a pitcher, I would encourage him to go where he would impact a team the most

Everyone wants to play on the teams that often get to Omaha, I get that, but there is nothing more satisfying than being an impact player on a team trying to improve their program.

JMO

I definitely agree with that. Especially if that recruit is a pitcher.

 

Someone mentioned, "what about the kids".

 

Not sure how to answer that. If 16 year olds were draft eligible, MLB clubs would be drafting some of them.  So there has to be a rule put in place to stop early recruiting. Until that happens, early recruiting is only going to get more and more popular.  I think someone answered the question fairly well.  The kids have a parent.  In some cases I think it is the parent that wants that early commitment more than the player.

 

PG,

I am very glad that you said that.

 

I'm glad he said it also.  I have seen too much of that by parents.  

 

I think that our job as a parent is to guide your child towards something where they can best succeed.  To help them adjust their way of thinking when they go off track. To support them when they are on the right track.  And to help pick them up when they stumble.

 

Are they going to have their bumps and bruises?  Absolutely.  But you can't guide them down a path where you know they'll have little success just to stroke your own ego.

Truth is - this comes down to character.  We live in a world that has marginalized character.  We list all the reasons that it's ok to break our word and all the anecdotes that "support" our reasons for breaking our word - but it comes down to the willingness to break our word.  It always boils down to plain old fashioned selfishness (when there is a lack of cause - like a coaching change or academic shortcomings)

 

Some people (most actually) are comfortable with breaking their word and being that person.  They still think they are a person of character (because cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing) while behaving in a way that is completely in opposition to that reality.  You are the sum of your actions.  I am sure this cut and dry approach makes most people feel uncomfortable and that's fine.

 

Most people are average or below average in every way.  Character is just one of those ways.

 

Make a promise - keep a promise. End of story.

 

If you don't then you need to accept the fact that you are a person who's word is not worth anything and shouldn't be surprised or disappointed when people return the favor.

 

The staff at VT doesn't deserve this.  They are people of character and they keep their word.  It's unfortunate that not everyone adheres to that same moral compass.

Best post in this thread...I have been following this one at work wondering if anyone was going to take this path.  I will jump on-board with this line of thinking.  I was raised under one very simple philosophy -- live your life with the highest degree of integrity; which includes doing what you say you will do, even if it hurts.  Take a second and reflect about how many times you have asked yourself -- "what is wrong with our society" -- a lack of character, integrity, and strong moral fiber is what it always circles back too.  I say all this with a complete grasp on the reality we don't live in a black and white world and there are times when we have to reverse course.  But I also think those instances are the exception and not the rule. 

Couldn't agree more, R. Graham.  Tech doesn't deserve it.  Neither does the player who, recently, was forced to decommit from a major VA school because they had buyer's remorse.  Apparently he didn't throw hard enough at PG in July.  God forbid.

I actually feel the same way, have forever but.....

 

I cant blame a 15-16 year old who has been strongly influenced to make a decision, whether right or wrong and then influenced once again to make another decision when something they think better comes along.

JMO

I could totally agree with this if the party being referred to wasn't 15 when they agreed to the deal. There is a reason kids don't have the legal ability to make a contract. it is unfortunate and Tech isn't any more to blame then any other school - one thing for sure is the kids are not to blame...it is the system that is broken.

The "system" is only one part of the equation...the parent is where the buck stops.

I totally agree with the parent being part of the problem but they are not the professional. Parents are biased, we have no idea what the knowledge level is or what the financial need is...the higher standard will always be to the professional. if the 15u kid wasn't being chased the child and parents wouldn't have the chance to be stupid!

 

I was chatting with a showcase organization GM this summer at the 15u WWBA.  He said something to the effect, "I've lost count of how many RC's have told me that they are DONE with recruiting (read: offering) 15 year olds." 

 

Sounds like there are RCs who are drawing a line.  Not sure if the line begins at 16 or what?  I imagine it is an unwritten rule that they find hard to live by in the arms race that is recruiting.

I really struggle where I fall on this issue.  I, as well, was taught that your word is all you have, and I don't give mine lightly.  This is precisely why I told my son to make certain before he gave a coach his word.  It worked for us, but I can also see where it might not have.  I am not going to stand on my pulpit and proclaim that my son would have never gone back on his word, no matter what.  I would like to think I know, but I just don't.  We took the same approach when the pro guys started coming around.  Son was advised and followed the advise to never give them a specific number.  We had multiple in-home visits, and to their credit, I can't remember a single scout pressing son for a number.  Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, son had an injury in April, the same one that is being corrected today.  We just didn't get a diagnosis then.  I can tell you that once he shut down, there were NO more scouts!  While I understand why, it was very hard on a 18 year old kid that was being shown a lot of love for 6 months to have that disappear overnight.  He questioned himself and his ability.  We talked about this a lot and all I could do was encourage him.  My faith leads me to believe that God is in control and He has a purpose and plan for my son's life.  But that character issue is a two-sided coin.  Unfortunately, the college or pro team has the ace up their sleeve.  You break NCAA rules if you ask for advice, yet the teams are advised and they do this everyday for a living.  In my estimation, they should be held to a higher standard because they are adults with all the resources, and the players are kids with parents that have very little knowledge.  If I were the college recruiter, I would identify the kid as early as possible and then squirm as I try to hold on to him for dear life.  But the college coach not only has to worry about the kid changing his mind, he has to worry about that pro guy coming along with promises of cash.  I really do see this as a catch 22 on college coaches part.  Unfortunately, as many have pointed out on here numerous times, nothing is going to change and most likely it will get worse before it ever gets better.  

About 6 years ago I was negotiating with a VC for Series A funding, and we agreed to give up X for the funding. We get to the signing, and the terms were different and in favor of the VC. Asked for an explanation, he said: "My reality has changed."

 

Moral of the story: don't put matters into the hands of someone else's moral compass.

 

Commits on both sides put matters into the hands of the other party's moral compass. It's at risk of failure. And NLIs are meaningless. Pick a company that had an NLI in hand where the other party at some point said GFY. The road's littered with those carcasses.

 

The answer is a Contract. I'd love to see the collegiate landscape change so that the phrase "He/she's committed to X university" to "He/she's contracted with X university."

 

Only that will eliminate the b u l l s h i t.

 

 

 

 

"I am not going to stand on my pulpit and proclaim that my son would have never gone back on his word, no matter what.  I would like to think I know, but I just don't.  We took the same approach when the pro guys started coming around.  Son was advised and followed the advise to never give them a specific number.  We had multiple in-home visits, and to their credit, I can't remember a single scout pressing son for a number.  Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, son had an injury in April, the same one that is being corrected today.  We just didn't get a diagnosis then.  I can tell you that once he shut down, there were NO more scouts!  While I understand why, it was very hard on a 18 year old kid that was being shown a lot of love for 6 months to have that disappear overnight.  He questioned himself and his ability.  We talked about this a lot and all I could do was encourage him.  My faith leads me to believe that God is in control and He has a purpose and plan for my son's life.  But that character issue is a two-sided coin.  Unfortunately, the college or pro team has the ace up their sleeve.  You break NCAA rules if you ask for advice, yet the teams are advised and they do this everyday for a living.  In my estimation, they should be held to a higher standard because they are adults with all the resources, and the players are kids with parents that have very little knowledge."

 

^^^^^^^

THIS!!!!

Sometimes character = stupid. 

 

About 12 years ago my company was planning to move jobs to India.  I was asked to review the plan and it was terrible with no chance to succeed.  I also knew it was going forward no matter what.

 

What asked for my opinion I told the truth - the plan would fail and made recommendations to change it.  They were ignored and I lost my job, the plan went forward and failed to the tune of about $10MM.  The plans designer got promoted.  I failed to play ball.

 

That single decision where I exemplified "character" cost me about $500k to $1MM in earnings over my lifetime.  Money that I could have used to pay for college and weddings that I do not have because of my "character". 

 

I will never forgive myself for being so selfish and prideful that I put what I thought was my reputation ahead of what was right for my children and family.  I was a damn fool.

 

When facts change or are ignored it is flatly stupid not to reassess the situation and change direction if necessary....and yes it can be selfish but no one is coming around to give me back the money I no longer have.  It could be a multi-generational hit to my family.

 

To ask a 15/16 year old to lock in and expect that he shouldn't take a better deal later is hardly a character issue.  It is smart and about as American as you can be.  Our entire country is built on backing out of deals when things changed or we didn't like it, starting with the Revolution. 

 

So please stop with that's what is wrong with the country stuff.  We have been breaking deals when it is in our best interests since the Pilgrims. That is what has made us great...our flexibility and willingness to be different and aggressive when opportunity presented itself.  That is true both on an individual level and as a nation.

 

Sounds like the same RC's that talk about velocity not being everything. They Complain about kids who throw 90+ and can't hit the broad side of a barn (do barns have narrow sides?) and how they value control, but put them in front of a kid throwing 84 with pinpoint accuracy and they have no interest. It's all talk. They'll complain, but, in the end, they'll offer more and more 15yo players because State U. can't afford not to when Tech is scooping up all the young talent.

Yep. Ask the Native Americans how they feel about old fashioned morals concerning keeping your word. They have a name for it, even.

Great point.  We saw the massive statistic book regarding players who sign out of high school versus going to college.  We were told how college coaches don't do this or that from the scouts and the opposite regarding pro ball from the college HC.  All of this was tremendously stressful with absolutely no guidance.  In hindsight, all you can do is go with your gut and hopefully chose what is best for the individual.  The jury is still out for me.

My son was fortunate enough to have an advisor (Thank you Jim). The navigation of land mines and just having a calming voice of reason to consult was priceless!

 

I cannot imagine having to go the scouts/draft scenario without an advisor.

I think pointing at character isn't fair in these cases.  There's a lot of facts that are not known to the public and there's always all kinds of extenuating circumstances.  Not to mention the fact that the relationship is very imbalanced.  For example, it seems that coaches have a laundry list of ways to renege on a verbal without their character being attacked.  To list a few I've read on this board (paraphrasing):

 

  - "as soon as a coach makes an offer he starts looking for someone better.  This is to be expected."

  - "baseball is a business".

  - "I expected more kids to go in the draft so I'm short scholarships next year and I won't be able to give you what I thought".

  - "kid didn't develop like I thought so I can't burn a spot on him".

  - "kid didn't meet expectations freshman year so I'm not extending the scholarship for next year".

  - "coaches job is on the line, you have to expect him to do what needs to be done".

  - etc.

 

What if a kid thought the same way?  What if a kid kept looking for something better after committing?  What if the college team didn't develop like the kid thought it would?  What if the college team, or the school, didn't meet his expectations after spending time there?  I suppose in these cases if he changes his mind his character is called into question.  Perhaps it should, but let's be honest and recognize that this goes both ways.  And let's not forget, this kids life direction is on the line, which is as important (at least to him) as another man's job.

 

Add to this that it seems common for coaches to "go dark" on a kid they've been courting and disappear without so much as a note, but heaven forbid the kid acts the slightest bit unprofessional - such asymmetrical relationships don't foster mutual respect that leads to good behavior.  I think each successive wave of kids coming up are going to have less and less patience and respect for this behavior and we're going to see more kids behaving in ways that protect their own self interest, not less.

 

I'm not pointing at any particular kid, situation or school, just summarizing the general environment as I see it.

 

A friend compared HC's and RC's to "used car salesmen" and there is a fair amount of truth to that statement.

I totally disagree with the comparison of used car salesman to recruiters and coaches.

 

The only thing in common is they both require selling something.  Nothing against used car salesmen, they are needed.  

 

The skill set needed to be a succesful head coach or recruiting coordinator involves so much more than simply the ability to sell something. The used car salesman sells to anyone that is interested.  The recruiter has to select who he will sell his program to and if the recruit doesn't like the program, there isn't another car in the lot to sell.

 

Once again, no disrespect to car salesman, but I do think the comparison is disrespectful to college coaches and recruiters.

I totally agree with PG on this one.  I never felt or looked at the college RC or HC we met or interacted with as such.  They were all extremely professional.  As a matter of fact, I always felt like I just didn't know how they were able to do their job.  You imagine trying to recruit the best talent possible, but not so talented that you loose out on them to MLB draft.  I would also say the best programs don't have to "sell" anything.  When my kid walked into the facilities of his school of choice, I assure you there was NO need to sell him on it.  It sold itself.  

I am definitely on the side of your word being your word and hope that when/if my kid commits to something he will stick with it.

I shouldn't even post this since I got my rumor about 3rd hand, but I asked somebody who should know the story what happened, and to be honest if it is true I don't blame the kid for bailing and I would have encouraged mine to move on. 

PG, I wasn't trying to disrespect college coaches and recruiters, only comparing  the selling techniques needed to sell their program versus another, with the same targeted recruit.  Each coach will sell a different story about their program as to why an athlete should come play at State U.  In the end, who knows other than the recruit, if any or all was true.

The best selling technique a recruiter can use is the truth.  The thing that is hard for some to understand is this... The truth today might not be the truth tomorrow. Circumstances can change.

 

Has there ever been anyone, that has never changed their mind or their word? Doesn't everyone make a bad decision at times and if possible correct the mistake.

 

Someone gives their word, they promise they will be there next Saturday.  However a close relative passes away on Wednesday and the funeral is Saturday. Remember you gave your word!

 

Nearly everyone would excuse you for breaking your word in that situation. You simply apologize and attend the funeral.  So obviously there are different situations and degrees of what your word really means.  I do think breaking your word to the college is a bigger deal than the scenario above.  It has an adverse effect on the college program.  So in all the cases where people could break their word, where does a verbal college baseball commitment rank?  It's not considered breaking your word if you get drafted and because of the money you decide to sign a pro contract. Yet it is breaking your word if you go to another college that offers you more.

 

Anyway, here is how I look at verbal commitments from both sides.

 

The recruit - At this time I plan to attend your college.

The recruiter - At this time we plan on you attending our college.

 

I don't like seeing kids changing their mind.  Just like you hate seeing colleges change their mind.  But as long as coaches want to win and players want to win this will continue happening until there is a rule that disallows it. I'm not sure those with that kind of power, see it as a big problem.

 

Guess I have a hard time calling it a character flaw.  We see plenty of real character flaws.

Fair responses.  And I understand them.

 

When a player decides to commit to a college his parents should look him in the eye and stress the fact that he is giving his word and by proxy - the word of his family.  So take it seriously.

 

When a University commits that scholarship to that player they are assuming the risk that they "missed" on that kid and they are obligated to live up to that mistake. 

 

Our approach has always been to be sure to do your due diligence BEFORE making that COMMITMENT.  If a player ever backs out (it has happened once with the Cardinals) then that player needs to move on from our program to another program that doesn't value or honor one's word.  If a School EVER backs out from their commitment then they never get a player from our organization.

 

Coaches know that.  Players know that.  Problem averted.

 

I will once again try to offer some perspective (which understandably is only my perspective and may not be comfortable for everyone) - People get divorced... business deals get broken... sometimes people flat out lie to your face... such is life.

 

You can be one of them or you can be exceptional.  We are talking about players breaking a commitment to a quality school in one of the best 3 conferences in the country for what?? a program that MIGHT be a dozen spots higher?!?!? - this is equivalent to leaving your beautiful wife and mother of your children for the same woman who is 5 years younger.

 

Sure, people do it - namely people who learn that breaking their word is defensible at the age of 15.  then it is even easier to do it at 30 or 40 or 50.... heck, whenever you can marginally improve your situation in your opinion...

 

Fact remains that there are people who keep their word and there are people who don't.

 

luv baseball - you shared your opinion and that led to you being marginalized.  You didn't break your word - you made a choice. It only is a "stupid" mistake if you define success purely by the measure of money.  It is not.  This is the lie we tell ourselves when we allow others to tell us what we are worth and you r former employers had their opinions (right or wrong).  Your anecdote is the rallying cry of every person who rationalizes their abandonment of integrity.

 

Sometimes integrity costs you in ways that are less important than integrity itself.  Any dollar made through selling out your integrity is a hollow dollar.  That may very well be the 'New American way" - but it isn't worth glorifying.

 

The "RIGHT" way to handle a situation where you feel as if you may have committed to a school that you don't feel you can fulfill your commitment to would be to open a dialogue with that staff.  Talk to them about why you feel you may have made a bad choice - and in the end, if the feeling is mutual then both parties can cshake hands and walk away.  - for instance, maybe a player verbals to a high academic school with good baseball but finds that they consistantly struggle with the rigors of a High School academic load... the conversation with that school (a UVA or Stanford type) can be easily navigated.  Allow the staff to re-emphisize the support they can offer before jumping ship.  Same with the idea regarding any other reason a player may want to re-evaluate their situation.  Everyone owes it to eachother to have the conversation.  O

Just got a text that another 2017 Va Tech commit tweeted tonight he is going to Penn State, he was summer before / September of sophomore year kid as well. 

1) Not rhetorical: Is it commonplace for all schools to experience 1-2 decommits per year? 

2) Is this the result of a series of individual and unrelated coincidences, or is this a systemic issue?

R. Graham, that may be one of the best post I have ever read.  It is hard to do the right thing most of the time, but I have tried to instill in my son that you are who you are by the things you do when no one is watching.  It's easy to work hard or make "good" choices when people are around that you want to impress or don't want to let down.  It's when you are all alone, those decisions you make reveal your true character.  This is my opinion, and the way my dad raised me.  I have made many mistakes in life, and continue to do so.  While I realize I will never be perfect on this side of Heaven, I do believe that my word is really all I have.  If someone cannot trust that I say what I mean, then how can they trust anything about me?

The whole thing is sort of messy business.  

For the small percentage of kids who have their choice of Maryland, UCLA, LSU and whoever else it is only tough because of the choices.  For everyone else, the vast majority, that are on a lower level or sort of stuck between levels it can be very confusing.  You get some attention, then get ignored.  You get buttered up by a coach who tells you you are his guy....but, you know 4 guys he has said the same thing to.  

Its a business and should be treated as such.  Is there loyalty?  Not much.  A coaches job is to win, not develop talent or give a toss about his kids.  He may or may not care.  The kid needs to watch out for his own butt and find the best situation for himself....the same as a coach is out for himself first and foremost.  Its the way of the world.  

A perfect example is this, and it happens all the time:  If a raw player develops the coach wants credit, if he doesn't develop it is the kids fault.  The truth in either case is probably in the middle somewhere. 

There is a line of buses just waiting for people to get thrown under them....

Throughout this whole discussion I keep coming back to the fact that many of these kids who break their commitment were 15 years old when they entered into it. 45 year old coaches, responsible for multi-million dollar operations and putting food on the table for their families, are themselves committing to verbal contracts with 15-year olds.  How many multimillion dollar businesses do business deals with 15 year olds?  Not many. And the reason is clear.  They're 15!

 

Remember these are the same boys who are probably also making verbal commitments to their girlfriends that they will "love them and be with them forever" and all that other mush that adolescents can think they believe and say.  Not faulting the coaches for taking the commitments, and not faulting the kid either.  Not faulting either for reneging.  It is what it is.  Plenty of marriages don't even get to the alter because someone breaks off the engagement 4-weeks before the wedding.  It's unfortunate but I'd say that's a better idea than going through with the union simply because you made a "verbal commitment" to the betrothed on top of the ferris wheel at the county fair. 

 

I hear what R. Graham so eloquently and passionately stated.  And understand that I agree with most of it when we are talking about ADULTS.  I just have a hard time holding a 15-year old to a commitment for a duration of much more than the standard team sports season of 4-months.  I expect players as freshman to commit to my JV team for THAT SEASON.  You start on day one, you should finish the season.  I never assume, nor expect any kid to make a verbal commitment to play baseball for our HS program all four years as 14-year old freshman.  Stuff gets in the way: surfing, fishing, hunting, girls, drugs, soccer, alcohol, soccer, jobs, burnout, or a better opportunity for life success.

 

Call it setting a bad precedent for an adult life of doing the same but where you choose to go to college is a very important decision.  Easily a Top-10 LIFE decision as far as ramifications thereafter.  Most kids do not even consider it until 17 or 18.  And there's a reason for that.  You are that much older and wiser. The maturation that takes place between 15 and 18, for boys, must be akin to that of 30 and 50. I'm not a psychologist but I play one on HSBBWeb.  Therefore I'd venture to guess It's huge. 

 

I'm a free market guy.  The recruiting market will correct itself in all these cases.  Until an NLI is signed, it's "Caveat Recruiter," and "Caveat Recruit."