"Walk on now, money later" ...?

Midlo, I could be mistaken but it seems that I read this is that new "gray" shirting that is taking off nowadays. Seems it is a way a coach can coerce a player to tryout and/or play the next season without any baseball money.

Welcome to non-counter recruiting 101.

You are valued by how much scholarship money you are offered. The coach is committed to nothing. Your son will not be able to transfer without sitting out a year or going to JUCO if it doesn't work out. Now figure it out.

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
Midlo, I could be mistaken but it seems that I read this is that new "gray" shirting that is taking off nowadays. Seems it is a way a coach can coerce a player to tryout and/or play the next season without any baseball money.

Gray shirting is when a student enrolls in a school with less hours than required for a full time student. Thererfore the students 5 year clock doesn't start until he enrolls full time.

Very sticky situation to get involved with. What happens when your son gets there and he's a 3rd sting guy at his position? Maybe he got into a situation where he's over his head. Is the coach really going to give him a scholarship as opposed to signing another freshman who may be a better fit?

There are no guarantees unless it is on paper and included in the 11.7 I would be very very careful about that situation.

I think someone made the point that coaches value you based on the scholarship offer. This is true. There are several guys in your sons' incoming class that receive scholarship money. Why did they have money for them and not for him?

Go where your wanted and go where it's proven that you're wanted by a quality scholarship offer. Getting into a program that values you from the start is a huge help.

Midlo,

You could check the history of this coach by looking at his roster for the past several years. If you see players leaving his program after a year or two that could be a red flag. But if his roster is stable and many of his players stay for 4 years then that could be a good sign.

Coming from someone whose son took a slot on a D1 roster with no money as a junior with the hopes of getting some money next year, we have to trust the coach will do what he says if my son has a good year? If not, my son found a school he loves and a BB program he enjoys and we will try not to get caught up in all money issues.

If that coach is going to treat his scholarship players differently than his non scholarship players and does not put the best players on the field then I would not consider that school.

JMO

Has anyone had experience with getting this sort of promise and:

Having the promise kept?

Having the promise broken?

Is the coach guaranteeing a roster spot?

I am with those who say money shows the love. That has always been my view but it is especially poignant now with the new rules.
Once they have you there is less bargaining power. Why would a coach give a scholarship once you are there for free ? You would have to be a top performer and odds are you won't get the best opportunity being a freshman. Your best opportunity comes while you are still a free agent. Go where the money is offered.
My son had the same opportunity a few years ago and we turned it down. There was no way we would take the risk even though it was my son's 1st choice. Yes some people will luck out and it could work out but why not find a college that will offer you a good scholarship.

There is too much wiggle room in these kinds of situations for the coach to go back on his word without considering it a "lie" or misrepresentation of the promise he made. To me this fits into the category of "I won't recruit anyone else at your position" and "I won't redshirt you". The posters here that say 'show me the money" are right in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
It seems to be, for whatever reasons, a tough environment for this year's senior class in terms of getting firm D-1 commitments. In our area we just aren't seeing anywhere near as many offers as the last two years, and it's not for lack of talent.

Recently, I've had a handful of different parents ask me what I thought of this situation:

Coach says to player, "We like you, but we just don't have any money left in our budget for next year. If you will come as a recruited walk on for your freshman year, we will make sure that you get a scholarship after that."

This is the dilemma coaches are facing only being allowed to have 27 counters on the roster. This is where the player and family have to trust or not trust what a coach says.
IMO, most of those asking to be walk ons (where a school fully funds) would likely be the books only or very small scholarship offer to begin with. One has to decide whether that would have been acceptable to begin with, without the new rules.

I got an impression from over hearing a conversation while up in Jupiter, that some coaches consider the 8 walk ons on a fully funded program (even with a roster spot) players that would have been books only of 5% or 10% players. That for some would mean they were not necessarily considered starters from the beginning but more of relief players.
However, I do know of quite a few that got little in the past and proved themselves in a big way.
Don't think there is any right or wrong answer, but rather the player deciding whether the school is an all around fit and if baseball didn't happen for them would they be happy, or feel the need to transfer.

Some excellent points have been mentioned here. I particularly like what Tigercub and TPM have said.

Let me offer some experience we've had with one of my former players who attends to an excellent university that plays in a top conference, and had exactly this situation. I feel comfortable using some specifics here because I know the college coaches and player well, and it has all worked out the way we all hope these things can happen.

U.C. Davis brought Rikki Foster in as an invited walk on during his senior year. There were two reasons for this, neither related to his baseball ability. UCD was out of money, and Rikki, while being an excellent student, was academically marginal to gain admission to UCD. He had a 3.5 GPA coming out of high school, and had to take the SAT again after graduating HS to even get into UCD. The threshold he had to attain was 1500 on math and verbal, and along with the 3.5 he'd barely qualify for admission to UCD. As you can see, this school has very high academic standards, even for their athletes. Rikki scored higher than 1500 on the SAT, so he was admitted with no money, but the prospect of maybe getting some money down the road. Also, UCD was not a fully funded program, with only 9 scholarships at the time.

As things turned out, Rikki was asked to red-shirt due to their concern that he be able to maintain academic eligibility during his freshman season. He reluctantly accepted that situation, kept his grades up and practiced with the team but not playing in any games. As a red-shirt freshman, he was on the team last year, again without money (but keep in mind it was never completely promised, just an 'if we can') His role was as a reserve, and he only saw occasional time for the first half of the season. When he finally got an opportunity, he drove in the game winning run as a pinch hitter in extra innings of a Big West game, and followed that up the next day by scoring the winning run, again in a reserve role late in the game. He finally started getting some playing time and made the most of his opportunity. By the end of the season he was getting some playing time, and proving that he deserved a more significant role in the future. He also got to experience playing in an NCAA regional on a team that had five players drafted after the season.

This year, Rikki is a red-shirt sophomore. I recently had a conversation with one of the assistant coaches, and asked whether RIkki was going to be a starter and if so, would it be in the outfield or infield (he can play any outfield and is a solid middle infielder as well) and the coach had an interesting reply. He told me that he didn't know where Rikki would spend most of his time, but expected him to start at both second base and center field but most importantly thought he'd likely be the leadoff hitter every game. I haven't asked either party for specifics, but am pretty sure he's getting a little bit of money finally, as well.

The point I'm trying to make is this - the young man is getting an excellent college education at one of the top academic universities on the west coast. He's playing D1 baseball in one of the top conferences in the nation, the Big West, and will have a significant role on this team for three seasons, in all liklihood. He, and his parents, trusted the university to live up to their representations, and while there may have been a bump or two along the way, it has all worked out well for both sides. He had to prove himself as a student first, and a player second. He eventually did both and is now living a dream that most young men never get to enjoy.

It CAN work well, if both sides have a good feel for each other and know what to expect. Also, keeping in mind the real reason for attending a university, to get an education, and not letting a relatively small amount of money (face it, 25% is not that much money, and that is all most players get these days) get in the way of an opportunity to EARN a role on a wonderful baseball team. Given that most college baseball players only get one offer, or perhaps two, and very little money, then why do people obsess so much with this? I can think of 20,000 other students at Rikki's school who are there to get an education without any athletic money, and who are doing just fine at obtaining their college education. Don't lose sight of the real reason to attend college, and enjoy the privilege of being a baseball player, if that opportunity is there.

I wonder how much he owes when he graduates ? To me you have only told part of the story.
There are people that can afford to pay $50,000 a year .
I would never accept a 25% offer or even twice that because I wanted most of the college paid for.
Just like in BB your son will have to prove himself after he graduates and it is very difficult if he graduates owing a huge debt.

Great story 06Catcherdad- good for this player, maybe bad for the other players that were not on the spring roster (over 35 originally listed on fall roster) and now down to 35. Looking at the players that are no longer there includes several sophs and a jr. Obviously I don't know why these players are no longer on the roster as I don't know any of them, but in many programs this is the chance you take.

Bobblehead, the UC's are somewhat affordable (?), in the low 20K price range/year for instate students.

Good post 06.

BHD,
This is a personal decision and there are lots of things to consider, one of them being debt after college. We don't know the players financial situation.

While you wouldn't choose that particular situation, not sure if some would have considered yours.

If my son was not a top prospect where he could command what he wants, the next consideration is where he will get his degree and what we could and could not afford.

I agree with 06, never lose sight of the fact that going to college is for your degree.

06catcherdad - that is simply a great story and thank you very much for sharing. You might as well put my son's name in place of Rikki's as his story is very similar. I never quite understood the money angle either. If you can get it, more power to you. If not, why go for a lessor opportunity? I also don't believe coaches recruit bench players. Some may be longer shots in their eyes but money does not always tell the story. There are big money guys sitting the bench out there and vis versa.

BHD - it appeared to me he told the whole story. Most students don't get any money to attend college. Thus, anything that Rikki gets in the future is a bonus over the majority of kids who attend college.

Too many people on here, IMO, completely lose sight of the fact that 95% of all college students are not athletes on their colleges various teams. Most of those students get little to no financial aid, at least from an academic standpoint. Many have to obtain assistance through various alternative means, including borrowing.

Many also don't consider that, depending on the sport, many of those athletes get little to no athletic aid. Not everyone who plays college baseball gets big money, most don't. Furthermore, many baseball players who are playing collegiately, only get a single offer. Not everyone is a highly recruited prospect. Most college baseball players are fortunate to have an opportunity at all, even though many people don't seem to think that way.

I make a point of telling my summer players that if baseball gives them an opportunity to attend a college they wouldn't be able to otherwise get into, or gets them into college when they wouldn't otherwise be able to attend at all, then they've gotten everything back from the game that they can ever ask, and anything beyond that is icing on the cake.

The young man I referred to will graduate with a degree from one of the most respected University of California campuses, and he most likely wouldn't have gained admission to that university were it not for baseball. THAT, by itself, counts for so much. The financial aspect beyond that is somewhat irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

06, way to go.

You are correct, most players get very little BB $$.
I might go on record to say that my player, coming out of HS, was offered by a few programs less than 50%. One coach actually told him he had no money but could squeeze out about 35%, and this was early summer.
The object in the end is to figure out the BEST offer at the BEST school with the BEST program that is right for your son, even if debt is incurred, and that differs for everyone. Everyone's priorities are different.
You might be surprised to know that there are even parents of players here whose sons have no bb money at all. They've either trusted the coach's word or given it up for other players to help the team.

quote:

They've either trusted the coach's word or given it up for other players to help the team .

I think we've been over that a time or two haven't we TPM.

I know Danny, I only mentioned it because there seems to be a stigma with the word "walk on".

A walk on is only someone who is not a counter.

That's a great story about the Cal Davis kid. Glad to hear it for him.

A couple of points I wanted to throw in are some things that i think are worth another mention that have been talked about already.

First, I think the perception of scholarships offered is skewed from reading the posts. Most guys don't get 25%. I don't know why that is the common perception but it's not true. When this thing drops to 27 scholarship players, that's an average of 43% per kid. Coaches use their allotted scholarship dollars, especially with the NCAA making transfers sit out a year now. There's no sense in holding money for the break cause the guy would have to sit for a whole season anyway. So in essence for every kid that is offered 25%, that means that a coach can offer a guy 61% and still stay on his budget per scholarship player.

And yes there are 20,000 kids at the school that don't get athletic aide and they still make their education work. But for 27 kids at the school, they do receive athletic aide. If i had the opportunity to receive that aide from a school I would want to do so. I guess like someone mentioned before, money is more important to some people than others in the decision.

As far as coaches playing the best players while leaving money out of the equation, it happens. I know many times parents get frustrated because their son may not be playing. They've seen their son succeed at much higher level in high school than the guy who is currently getting the playing time is doing in college. That's apples to oranges. The pitching is much better, the opposing defense is much better, and the pressure to perform is much greater. Coaches spend every second watching these guys perform and they put the best product on the field. No matter what kind of money your son is on, the best player will play.

I guess my last point would be that for every success story like the kid from UC Davis, there are who knows how many stories that don't pan out.

The bottom line is sit down and decide what is important to you. Then pursue the program that offers you the most out of your importance list.

While I won't name student athletes or school names, I'm aware of more failures than I'd care to know about. Almost always, the common denominator has to do with the student athlete not living up to his end of the deal. I know of several who, regardless of the money, didn't take care of business in the classroom, and have either had to sit a year or been dropped from the team and out of the school. This happens more often than it should, and my experience has been that academics (as in lack of) are at the heart of what goes wrong.
Too much partying and not enough class time is a bad combination, always. It happens more often than it should.

quote:

There's no sense in holding money for the break cause the guy would have to sit for a whole season anyway.

What's "the break"?

the semester break

I have a 2010 that has real good, but not great, academic marks, but his baseball skills are also real good, but not great. He is getting interest from several D1's, but surely is not their number 1 guy. Financially, we make enough money to qualify for next to nothing through FAFSA, but we are low enough income to qualify for need-based aid from the top academic schools like the Ivies.

This puts us in a the following situation.

He wouldn't get into these academic schools with his grades alone, but if he could get in with baseball, our need-based aid would make them cheaper than the local state schools. I feel the degree and the after graduation networking make this a top option.

He probably won't get into a top state school with baseball alone, but his grades could make him an attractive player. He could choose several of these top universities and see which one has the most interest in his baseball skills.

In either situation, if his baseball ends or he can't handle the load of student and athlete, he is at the best place to continue on with his life after baseball. If he is "stuck" at an academic school that he never could have been admitted to without baseball, then his baseball skills helped him out.

The point I'm making here is that in our situation, which is probably similar to many other kids with top grades, that are not top recruits, it won't be just about money. Our situation is far different than that of the top recruits that are likely to be sought after by many schools and can shop for the best deal available.

Is that why the thread "Do coaches lie " keeps popping up here ? You relate a story of success but what about the stories of total failure ? What would you guess be at % of failure against the stories of success ?

BHD, my experience has been that success stories outnumber failure stories by a comfortable margin. When I've seen failures, the greatest factors always have seemed to lie with the student, not the program. I think that often, the factors that contribute to a 'failure' are largely unknown to outsiders, things like how much partying the player did, how bad his grades really were, the fact that he wasn't academically eligible.

It is easy to hear someone give excuses for why it didn't work, and some won't want to take responsibility for their failure, so they blame it on the program. Of course, failure to take responsibility for their own opportunities and actions was part of the problem that got them into a mess to begin with.

I've had the opporunity to discuss a few 'failures' with the player, his family or those around him, and also with the coaches. Trust me on this, the parents often hear a story different than what the coaches tell me. Junior often doesn't want mom and dad to know that he's having trouble adjusting to college life, and managing the temptations and responsibilities they're presented with that they didn't have to manage in high school. College Coaches want to win, and they'll go with the players who they judge give them the best chance to do that, their jobs often depend on it.

Don't be so cynical, I think you have a view of things that doesn't quite square with the reality of what usually happens.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
I've had the opporunity to discuss a few 'failures' with the player, his family or those around him, and also with the coaches. Trust me on this, the parents often hear a story different than what the coaches tell me. Junior often doesn't want mom and dad to know that he's having trouble adjusting to college life, and managing the temptations and responsibilities they're presented with that they didn't have to manage in high school.

Ain't that the truth...been real close to a bunch of these crashes...so often blamed exclusively on the coach and the program.

44
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quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
I make a point of telling my summer players that if baseball gives them an opportunity to attend a college they wouldn't be able to otherwise get into, or gets them into college when they wouldn't otherwise be able to attend at all, then they've gotten everything back from the game that they can ever ask

Truer words have rarely been spoken here.

I am not talking about players giving excuses. I have heard horror stories and it often is accompanied by coaching changes. I have heard them from those who have witnessed what has happened to others. Like my friend who was a closer in Arkansas who saw a new coach come in and told him to find 3 new roommates just before fall started. No warning just cur them in their JR year. I talk to hundreds of players and I don't always buy what they say but some are accurate. Every year I see players disappear from rosters who are good players caught up in the numbers game. Don't kid yourself .

I think that the only reason these kids "disappear" is because they were in a place that they shouldn't have been in the first place.
I am not blaming the players or the coaches for that, it works both ways, an error in judgement, however, this is a game of performing on the level in which you are recruited for, if that doesn't happen then we all know what that means.

I truely beleive that less movement will occur because everyone will be doing a better job.

There comes a time when you have to look to the future and stop reminicing about what used to be.

JMO.

TPM one of them is a pitcher who had an outstanding year in MiLB last year. There are many reasons why bad things happen to good players. It is not as cut and dry as many would like to believe.
I see it in other sports as well. One friend was at Pepperdine on a basketball scholarship. New coach comes and he is gone. He was a starter at Florida Atlantic.

When student athletes do their homework on schools, and take care of business when they get there, they almost always end up with a good result. Sure, the occasional problem comes up with a coach leaving and someone being in a program where they aren't as wanted, but that is the exception, not the rule. It is also something that normally can't be foreseen, and is irrelevant in choosing a college opportunity. Control what you can control, and don't worry about what you can't predict or control.

BHD, I'm coming from the perspective of having more than 3 dozen of my former players moving along into college baseball. Of those, I estimate that at least 80% of them, and probably more like 90%, have had a good experience with their college team. The ones who haven't, with only 1 exception, have had self inflicted problems. The one who was the exception was in a program where the entire coaching staff changed when he was a freshman. Of course, his performance during his freshman year could have altered their perception of him, but instead he chose to play juco ball his soph year, and then find a new fit at another D1 school, if that opportunity comes his way again. I'm not sure it will.

I think if you look for and focus on problems and what can go wrong, you'll find them. However, if you focus on what can go right and work to make that happen, I think the problems are far less common than you seem to believe.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
TPM one of them is a pitcher who had an outstanding year in MiLB last year. There are many reasons why bad things happen to good players. It is not as cut and dry as many would like to believe.
I see it in other sports as well. One friend was at Pepperdine on a basketball scholarship. New coach comes and he is gone. He was a starter at Florida Atlantic.

Things happen. I know of a few stories myself of some really good players that things happened to, but we don't know all of the circumstances and we can't keep dwelling how bad things happen, if you do, you won't get anywhere.

I truely believe in most cases the player was not where he was supposed to be or the coach took the player without doing his homework, or the player reacted on his emotions too quickly.

BTW, that pitcher that made it to MLB, doesn't necessarily mean he was at the right college program to begin with.

06 I have no doubt that many have good experiences. My perspective is it is a lot better with a large scholarship than without. My son has had a great experience and will graduate this May. It cost very little and he now wants to get his MBA.
Isn't it sweeter when your degree is paid for at least in part ? If it were just about BB that is fine for some but at the end of the day when that is all done you have to start paying back student loans. I am sure you have seen one of the many broadcasts on students buried in debt after graduating.
I know student athletes from one end of the US to the other in several sports. One of my son's friends I talked to last summer is a SR at Cal Berkley. He was smart he took rowing.

TPM you are Right. The problem is that I haven't found a formula that can predict all the things that you need to make a fool proof decision. That is why I love the big scholarship . It reduces the pain of a bad decision. I know my friend that was at Florida Atlantic could never afford that move from Pepperdine without big money.
I thought we were hear to let people know the good and the bad.

Of course it's sweeter, but that may be in your opinion.
Most of our son's here, according to what I believe in most that I see posted here, that baseball is a very big reason they chose a particular school. No offense taken as you yourself have stated, that the program your son played in had some issues. Mine would have been most unhappy, even with a full scholarship.
It is what it is, and everyone makes decisions for different reasons. They don't always have to be the same as yours or mine. Big scholarships do not bring happiness to everyone.
I can use mine as an example, the least money out of our pocket would have been to go to UF. With all the problems they had in the past, he would have been miserable and possibly not be where he is today.

quote:

Isn't it sweeter when your degree is paid for at least in part ?

BHD,
I am not sure why that makes any difference.
If it did, the inference would be that every DIII kid has a degree that isn't as "sweet." I don't understand how to rationalize your views and what happens in DIII baseball.
Many, many DIII players have wonderful careers, graduate in 4 years and have a wonderful lifetime ahead of them. None gets a scholarship because of their baseball ability.
While she has not posted in some months, Bordeaux's son, David Stringer was a walk on at Stanford. He ended up being a very important member of their staff and had the highest GPA in Omaha last June.
The UC Davis program/coaching staff being discussed here has done an unbelievable job. Stanford knew they were in a major battle last June and said so before and after their games.
Nope, I'm not buying it. I don't think a scholarship makes much, if any difference, in what that degree or college baseball experience means. If it does, I would question how important and meaningful the baseball/student experience really was.

Yes we put location and competition as priorities. For the 1st 2 years things were acceptable and my son enjoyed all aspects of the experience. He is now ready to graduate and has no regrets. He never has had Pro ball in his dreams and BB was never a priority.