Weighted Balls?

Coach, I think if you look back at some post's this topic has been covered quite a bit in here.

Nope not going to work for velocity.

yes it will work for velocity and also works well for arm care.

Agree with lineshot, if used correctly they will increase your velocity.

Well then if it works so good show me the evidence it does work. Because there is no evidence that it works.

Go to the athletic pitcher web site they will have evidence that it works. Come to my house I could show you evidence that it works. Talk to some major league people that use them, or college programs or football players that use weighted footballs. I am not saying it is evrything to evrybody but it can help with velocity and the health of your arm. However it is like lifting it has to be done properly, with good supervision. Again just my opinion.

No question weighted balls improves velocity especially the way they teach the athletic pitcher program at Ron Wolforth's Cam Am Academy.Anyone telling you any different is either a liar or very ignorant.

I just don't see why they would work because the arm is not the source of velocity. The body is what does the work and gets the power. How come in football they don't use weighted footballs? What about Golf? Do you see Tiger Woods swinging a weighed club before teeing off? I don't think so. If weighted balls worked then why isn't everyone doing them?

Maybe they don't work for other sports? I don't know, but I've seen evidence that they work for baseball. Maybe you should do some research.

In the use of weighted balls, it has been my experience that the greatest gain is in the beginning. One must remember not to use weighted balls unless the mechanics are sound and you are monitored closely.

It is my humble opinion that the greatest gain comes from the underload portion of the training in conjunction with the overload training. You are not really strengthening the arm or shoulder that much as you are learning to speed up your arm to the maximum of your ability. I believe that continued use after the first 10-12 week session has limited potential for gain.

It is by no means a magic bullet. I believe that it does have some limited use in the area of training the arm to go faster.

I would like to add that using weighted balls can be bad for you if you don't train properly before starting the program. Be careful.

I agree that you need solid mechanics and a well monitored program, but if done correctly, I believe you will increase your velocity. It won't be like some magical workout where your velocity goes up 10 mph, but it may go up 3-5 mph.

Use at your own descrestion!
Weighted balls are ok for regular catch but never pitch or do excessive long toss with the balls. I heard a story that a kid made about 15 or 16 over-did a workout with a heavy ball and toar his rotator cuff badly. My advice is long toss and band work outs greatly strenghten shoulder mustles. But if you do use weighted balls make sure it's a LIGHT workout.

Have there been any studies done w/ control groups using the over & under weighted baseballs w/ pitchers ages 18 - 23? If so what are the results, long and short term? If not, WHY?

And have similar studies been done w/ groups ages 24 - 29? and so on...What other type of training was done in conjunction w/ over/underload? Or was nothing done in conjunction? I would like to think there was something else...

It would make sense to me that you would get a far more valuable result to the validity of using the overload-underload concept w/ the age range stated above. Wouldn't it?

I would feel much more comfortable asking a pitcher or group of pitchers to use this program if they were fully grown, mature and physically peeked out so to speak.

Wouldn't you see positive velocity results w/ most young pitchers ages 10 - 15 w/ most any program that was done regularly, within reason of course. Or w/ none at all, just due to physically getting stronger and training properly (ie. mechanically, strength & conditioning, playing baseball)

And wouldn't "The professional pitcher who throws in mid to upper 80's" greatly benefit from this concept of over/underload?

Basically I'm saying I am a little sceptical and fearfull of a young pitcher using the over/underload when they are not physically mature.

At what point would one stop gaining velocity? Age? Time in career?
Is there a peak? I feel certain there is.

Has there been a study on all the professional pitchers that have played, that threw at one time in the 90's? How did they get there? Genetics perhaps?

Where does velocity rank in the importance of pitching? (control, command, mechanics, pitchability etc...)

I personally don't care for the concept but others have claimed results.
These are some questions I certainly would ponder before my young son (if I had one..) would participate w/ over/underload concept.

Oh. One more question I would ask myself....

Who is selling them, and Why are they selling them?

Weighted Balls that is.....

My biggest concern is that weighted balls carry a very little room for error, especially in those individuals who are developing mechanics and have trouble recreating their delivery with a regulation weighted baseball.

I am not a big fan of overload training when it comes to specific sport skills such as swinging, running, throwing etc. Certainly anything over 10-15% of the regulation weight will cause changes in mechanics of using that impliment (i.e. baseball, bat, etc). So , for most, mechanics will change when using weighted baseballs...even if the naked eye cannot see.

However, it is hard to argue with individuals who have found success using weighted baseballs. I believe their data to be true and genuine.

If a player is developed and has maxed out his velocity and they are willing to try weighted baseballs they should do so under a educated professional.

Well done Jon!!

I am not sure I understand the concern of throwing weighted balls. Who/when was it determined that the optimum weight of a baseball is 5 ounces? I doubt it was scientific or a huge concern for arm care when that weight was arrived at. What if the weight had been 8 ounces or 3 ounces? You can’t convince me that throwing a 3, 4, 6 or 7 ounce ball is going to cause you any real problems.

Does anyone know how the 5 ounce weight came about?

To all you skeptics out there take the time to investigate the athletic pitcher progran offered by Ron Wolforth. It's obvious that most of you are very uneducated as to the use of weighted balls and especially unninformed about Ron's highly demanding but highly rewarding program.

Many of his students have gained over 10 MPH to their fastball in a short few months.I personally went to one of Ron's seminars and talked with several students and each one gained at least 8 MPH to their fastball. One student gained 20 MPH in less than 2 years.

The results speak for themselves and the program is the best if you want to throw harder . If you don't throw hard you won't get much attention at the next level no matter how well you spot the ball and throw off speed.That is just a fact of life fair or not.

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athletic pitcher progran offered by Ron Wolfoth

DM,

I agree, I also attended one of Ron's Boot Camps. Most have no idea about the Athletic Pitcher Program and that the weighted balls are only a small part of it... they would also be very surprised how the weighted balls are utilized in the program.

Considering that a 5 oz ball causes much arm trouble, balls weighing more will make it more difficult to maintain mechanics and lead to further problems.

I don't think your post was aimed at me but just to clear the air I think Ron's program is outstanding. I think I mentioned this in my post. The problem comes when someone without his experience thinks he is an expert and begins using these techniques with athletes who are not ready for such material.

John Doyle- So you think doing weighted balls, long toss,and other irrelevant activites will help improve a pitcher? This is not a shot at you John. I'm just wondering why you think Ron's program is outstanding?

IMO the reason pitchers are getting injured more and not improving are because they waste time doing these stupid activies. I get slammed all the time on here so feel free too.

If weighted balls worked so good how come we don't see velocity increases from year to year in pro pitchers? The reason these kids are getting velocity increases is from growth and development. NOT weighted balls. What I would like to say to Ron is show me the evidence? He would not be able to because they have done many many studies that weighted balls do not increase velocity.

Bighit- You say throughout you're post that weighted balls help improve the arm to go faster. Well in my experience in pitching there is no way you can improve arm speed. But you can improve arm speed by moving the body faster which will eventually come to the arm.

Bustamove,

I ask you to go back and re-read my posts. I clearly said I do not like overload training when dealing with skill specific activities such as pitching.

However, I do feel that training under a qualified professional, such as Ron, will help improvements in pitching and velocity.

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Originally posted by Bustamove:
Bighit- You say throughout you're post that weighted balls help improve the arm to go faster. Well in my experience in pitching there is no way you can improve arm speed. But you can improve arm speed by moving the body faster which will eventually come to the arm.

You aren't Dick Mills by any chance are you?

darkmoon- No I am not Dick Mills but me and him share mostly the same beliefs on pitching.

Could have fooled me. What personal experience do you have with Ron Wolforth? It seems as though you would never believe his program would work. Why is that? How can a kid gain MPH with his program in a few months? That kind of gain doesn't occur naturally.

Ron Wolforth is a real nice guy I have no problem with him at all. I do have a problem with his program. I don't believe his program works because as I said they have done many studies. Show me the evidence this works and no I'm not going to take this well wait he gained 10 mph in two months!!! I don't know anything about those kids maybe they developed a bunch in those two months. Also how do you know he isn't just saying that to get people to buy his program?

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Originally posted by Bustamove:
Ron Wolforth is a real nice guy I have no problem with him at all. I do have a problem with his program. I don't believe his program works because as I said they have done many studies. Show me the evidence this works and no I'm not going to take this well wait he gained 10 mph in two months!!! I don't know anything about those kids maybe they developed a bunch in those two months. Also how do you know he isn't just saying that to get people to buy his program?

So you know Ron is that what you are saying? Have you been to his seminar? Have you meet Brett Strom? Do you know what he teaches? What studies are you refering too? Who did these studies?

I meet kids that gained that kind of velocity at the boot camp. The other day I talked with instructors at a frozen ropes facility and they did an overload/underload program and all the kids gained big time..

No I do not know Ron and have not attended any of his boot camps or whatever.(I don't think I could it would be too sickening to me!!) I have heard he is a nice guy,I have nothing against him personaly just his pitching knowledge.

I'm so glad you think weighted balls work. I don't believe they work so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Bustamove, instead of telling everyone to show you evidence that weighted balls increase velocity why don't you show us some evidence that it doesn't?

To evaluate the benefits of 'heavy-first and then light-ball training' versus simultaneous heavy and light throwing, scientists at the University of Hawaii recently asked 45 high school and 180 university baseball pitchers to participate in a 10-week training programme which included three workouts per week. A control group utilized only a standard-weight (five-ounce) baseball, a second group trained with both a standard and heavy (six-ounce) baseball for five weeks, followed by five weeks with only a standard and light (four-ounce) ball. The final group worked out with standard, heavy, and light balls simultaneously throughout the 10-week period.

During a typical workout, the pitchers threw about 66 pitches. For the control group, each pitch was made with a standard ball. The group which simultaneously used standard, heavy, and light balls would throw (in order) 11 times with the regular ball, 22 times with the heavy, 22 times with the light, and then 11 times with the standard baseball. The heavy-first and then-light group sandwiched 11 standard throws around 44 heavy throws during the heavy, five-week period and 11 standard throws around 44 light ones during the final, five- week light period.

After 10 weeks, the control group failed to improve pitching velocity, but the other two groups raised throwing velocities by a similar amount - about 6-8 per cent. It appears that the use of underweighted and over- weighted balls during training can indeed increase throwing velocity. However, it's not necessary to stagger the ball usage; heavy and light balls can be used simultaneously throughout a training period in order to achieve the best-possible gain in speed. The Hawaii scientists recommend using balls or objects which are 20-per cent heavier and lighter than normal. None of the athletes became injured during the study, suggesting that the use of reasonably over- and underweighted balls is safe. (Effects of Under- and Overweighted Implement
Training on Pitching Velocity, ' Joumal of Strength and Conditioning Research, vol. 8(4), pp. 24 7-250, 1994)

Good research! Well done!

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Bighit- You say throughout you're post that weighted balls help improve the arm to go faster. Well in my experience in pitching there is no way you can improve arm speed. But you can improve arm speed by moving the body faster which will eventually come to the arm.

Actually, what I said is that imo the underload portion of the training provides more benefits. Please don't put words in my mouth. Here is what I actually said. I also stated that it was my opinion and experience. Please read again. Frankly, anybody that believes that it is only genetics and throwing that works and that all other types of training aren't worthy of effort is uninformed. You also act like this is the only training that people do. You seem to have no concept of a well rounded program. Please post yours.

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In the use of weighted balls, it has been my experience that the greatest gain is in the beginning. One must remember not to use weighted balls unless the mechanics are sound and you are monitored closely.

It is my humble opinion that the greatest gain comes from the underload portion of the training in conjunction with the overload training. You are not really strengthening the arm or shoulder that much as you are learning to speed up your arm to the maximum of your ability. I believe that continued use after the first 10-12 week session has limited potential for gain.

It is by no means a magic bullet. I believe that it does have some limited use in the area of training the arm to go faster.

I would like to add that using weighted balls can be bad for you if you don't train properly before starting the program. Be careful.

In my opinion the reason that it improves armspeed is by making you use your natural ability in a more efficient way. By doing so you maximize you whole kinetic chain.

I would like you to offer proof that it doesn't work. There have been many studies on overload/underload training for years. Javelin throwers have been doing it for decades.

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Bustamove says:
No I do not know Ron and have not attended any of his boot camps or whatever.(I don't think I could it would be too sickening to me!!) I have heard he is a nice guy,I have nothing against him personaly just his pitching knowledge.

You don't know anything about his pitching knowledge. You even stated you would not sit through a seminar. That shows you are closed minded and are not open to learning or investigating. You state you are here to educate, but all you do is tell people what not to do and what you do not like. I learn nothing from that other than you think you know more than everyone, but cannot articulate into words what you know.

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IMO the reason pitchers are getting injured more and not improving are because they waste time doing these stupid activies. I get slammed all the time on here so feel free too.

That is absolutely incorrect. This is the correct answer. I pulled it from the last time you made this uninformed comment. There are too many injuries because of too many kids being overused too young and too often with too many innings and too many improperly thrown breaking balls too often. According to Dr Andrews. I will take his word for it.


Please show me any study that says that long tossing or weighted ball training is the problem with young injuries. Please make it a study by a respected orthopedic surgeon with a speciality in baseball.

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Originally posted by Bighit15:
Please show me any study that says that long tossing or weighted ball training is the problem with young injuries. Please make it a study by a respected orthopedic surgeon with a speciality in baseball.

I have worked with several pitchers who have had serious problems as a result of trying to throw 1lb and 2lb balls at full speed.

I haven't seen these kinds of problems with 4 or 6 ounce balls.

However, I am skeptical about any benefits of lighter, weighted balls since most of a pitcher's velocity comes from the muscles of their torso, not their arm or shoulder.

Bighit15- I don't even know where to start but you say I put words in you're mouth, no I did not I just said that their is no way you can improve arm speed. If you think that is a uniformed comment umm maybe you should take a look at yourself and see maybe that just maybe you might be uninformed?

My well rounded program for a pitcher would be throw off the mound twice a week, working on controlling his pitches and building his skill. I also would have him do tons of running sprints and distance running. I would have him do functional training instead of the weight room. Also plyometrics,medicine ball,and stressing movements to confuse the body so we are strenthening are stabilizing the little muscles you can't strenghten while doing machines in a weight room. With throwing off the mound and running that would be the way they would gain velocity not doing things like long toss, weighted balls,etc things that are not pitching specific.


I will give you an example of Pedro Martinez remember when he was skinny and throwing to the excess of 100mph? Now he his barely hitting 90 and is injured more. He also has been on a weight training program stressing to get bigger and get more strength and has killed his velocity. When you get bigger you can't move you're body as fast so you lose velocity. I think college and pro teams should get speed trainers instead of strength.

I may appear closed minded, but I used to do all this stuff (weighted balls,long toss) before I actually got eductated and that's what I'm trying to get in people like you. But you will continue to blast me and say I'm uninformed. I'm used to taking heat so don't think you're scaring me.

I agree that pitchers getting injured more is by throwing too much at a young age, but that is just a small part. Pitchers today are doing too much long toss and weighted ball training and are in the weight room too much. That is the reason pitchers are injured more today. What about pitchers in the old days they threw 150-200 pitches per game and they never got hurt. What would people like you say "Oh their arms are just blessed it's natural" No they throw with good mechanics,good timing, and do not do those stupid activies people are doing today.

thepainguy- You are right on your comment that the torso delivers the ball. That's what I'm trying to get across to people on here that the body delivers the arm. The arm is not the source of power and people like bighit say im uniformed haha one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

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I have worked with several pitchers who have had serious problems as a result of trying to throw 1lb and 2lb balls at full speed.

Wow, I would never recommend that. That is just out there.

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When you get bigger you can't move you're body as fast so you lose velocity. I think college and pro teams should get speed trainers instead of strength.

The bigger is slower is just not quite accurate unless you are assuming they are training for size and not strength and flexibility. I agree that college and pro teams need speed trainers. They also need strength trainers as well.

I am not trying to scare you off, just trying to get more information out of you and less negativism. Would love to see some of those studies on weighted ball injuries. Pro players have been long tosssing for a century, they call it playing catch. That is a non issue, every pro team has it in their rep.


Your workout program is exactly what my son does in the off season, except he doesn't throw off off the mound after instructs in Oct. He does long toss and flat ground work. Doesn't start off of the mound until Jan 1, so that he can get ready by spring training. The off season is used to rest and strengthen and condition. My son has never had arm, elbow, or shoulder pain, swelling, or injury because shoulder care and arm care have always been the #1 priority. Never let him throw a breaking ball until his senior year. Followed Dr. Andrews conditioning program.

He also doesn't do overload/underload any more. Before his Jr year in hs he did it for 12 weeks, went from 84-92. That is not just growing. It was an increase in arm speed and you could see it on tape. If you remember, I stated that their was minimal use after the first 10-12 week session, imo. Didn't do it again we got what we needed out of it and moved on.

I am just uncomfortable with the always say never. I also am trying to give my opinion and experiencethat I have had. I feel there is a place for it and it has some merit from my point of view. I have also stated that it is not a magic bullet and is only a small part of any training regimen.

As far as old time guys never getting hurt, just not true lots more of them pitched through pain and did not get diagnosed unless there was a blowout. That is kind of a wives tale. Today they just specialize more. A lot of guys would throw more, but the teams don't let them.

You are right about 1 thing, in the old days they played catch everyday. I feel that is one reason that there are more injuries, less catch and more innings. Not more training. jmo

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However, I am skeptical about any benefits of lighter, weighted balls since most of a pitcher's velocity comes from the muscles of their torso, not their arm or shoulder.

I want to make one thing clear. I never stated that all the velocity comes from the arm speed. It is only one aspect. My son's core workouts, running, streching, medicine ball work are where his fb come from. I just don't believe that the other should be totally ignored. You can throw a baseball without moving your torso. Try throwing one without moving your arm. Try to focus on everything said, not just one little thing that you don't agree on.

This is not directed at you Painguy. I just used your quote to make the point. I agree with you that the legs and core is where the power is. I just feel over/underload training was beneficial. IT CAN BE DANGEROUS IF NOT MONITORED AND DONE CORRECTLY. So can any other aspect of training. I have heard others having a problem with the underload training. Can you provide me with some of your reasons why. Thanks

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The arm is not the source of power and people like bighit say im uniformed haha one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

Thank you for adding to the conversation. Sorry if my disagreeing with you offends you so much.