Weighted Balls?

When there are control group studies of CURRENT professional pitchers AGES 20 - 30 w/ positive results I will be more convinced.

Low, I appreciate that. For a Century, nobody lifted weights in baseball. Overload/underload is controversial for some. I have spoken with many who are now in the minors or pros who use them and have had success.

The study you suggest will never happen. Pro teams don't advocate their use and will never let their players be involved. So you will never be convinced in that way.

Though I personally have administered the program and seen results, I do not recommend them for people with poor mechanics or that are already having quick arms.

We have had these discussions before on this site. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat. The only problem i have is when people speak in absolutes. My least favorite reason is "they never did it that way in the past". I have yet to have anybody offer any solid information against weighted balls other than "I don't trust it" or "I don't believe it will work" or "all the power comes from the lower body". Though most of the power comes from the lower body, you must have arm speed to get velocity. I just happen to believe that arm speed can be increased by training. The sam people who believe in speed training for running, do not believe in it for the arm. Their argument is that it is genetic. So is running, but increased speed training has brought down times by increasing strength and leg speed. Why not arm speed?.

As I said in an earlier post I don't like skill-specific overload movement because the room for error is so small.

I am not saying they don't work. What I am saying is the large majority of individuals simply cannot train overload properly due to change in mechanics and posture related changes.

And as we all know when mechanics change injuries happen and then what are we really training if we arent training that specific skill any longer?

Here is an idea if you like doing the weighted ball workouts and Ron Wolforth keep doing them if you don't then skip it. As for me I will keep doing the ap workouts with some of the players I work with. By the way I will also keep doing the over under training I do with swing training, why I like the results.

BigHit15 Quote:
The study you suggest will never happen. Pro teams don't advocate their use and will never let their players be involved. So you will never be convinced in that way.

As a former minor league pitcher I agree completely.

As young pitchers report increase in velocity due to the over/underload concept, in my opinion the increase would more likely come from the structured training regimine and improved mechanics as opposed to the fact that they used weighted balls. Not to mention age (in most cases the program is done w/ young pitchers in the growing stage). Perhaps it does get guys over the hump, so to speak, but it's not the weighted ball alone in my opinion. Too many other variables.

Also how would anyone explain pitchers in the 1940's, 1950's, 1960's etc... throwing in the mid 90's. They were not exposed to the sport specific training that is available today. And one could say that there are more pitchers throwing in the mid 90's today then in times past but there were fewer MLB teams so there is no way of really knowing if the physical capabilities of pitchers today outnumber those of the past.

Teach kids how to pitch first. I wouldn't advocate the use of the weighted balls until the pitcher is physically mature (17-18...maybe 20-21 or so). If you feel it helps you then more power to you, it probably does. The thing it does not do is teach you how to pitch. Velocity is not the end all, as most people will agree to but most are the same people who rush right out and suscribe to the concept in hopes (delusional in most cases) that it will make them the next great thing (which isn't a bad thing, dreams often inspire).

Where can someone find/buy Wolforth's weighted ball program? Or would someone have to attend his pitching camp?

THERE IS NO WAY TO IMPROVE ARM SPEED. I don't know how many times I have to say this. There is literaly nothing you can do,and I wish their was something you could do cause it would make it a heck of a lot easier but that's not the case.

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THERE IS NO WAY TO IMPROVE ARM SPEED. I don't know how many times I have to say this. There is literaly nothing you can do,and I wish their was something you could do cause it would make it a heck of a lot easier but that's not the case.

I only ask an offer of proof.Is there any way to prove this? Are we just to take your word for it? What have you done to disprove this? Maybe you could give us some background or players you have worked with who have been successful. Maybe a proof of not being able to increase arm speed? A study? A doctor's comment? Something?

Did it ever occur to you that some were not living up to their potential and that training got them over the hump? Just show me the proof that it doesn't work. Even anecdotal evidence?.

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By Jon Doyle:
I am not saying they don't work. What I am saying is the large majority of individuals simply cannot train overload properly due to change in mechanics and posture related changes.

This was the biggest obstacle to overcome. When we went to the underload portion of the program (at first) balls were being thrown into the ground in front of him. So we had to work real hard on adjusting the mechanics for the increased arm speed. Very delicate. With the overload portion we had to set a target very high from a short distance to keep the throwing mechanics the same. I had to monitor very closely. IT IS NOT FOR EVERY ONE AND MECHANICS SHOULD BE VERY GOOD.

Have any of you who are against it ever worked a program with it to draw conclusions?

upstate, look at the web site athletic pitcher.com.

I've certainly used them...and as I said earlier they certainly can work...IF the teacher, coach or professional knows what they are doing. The problem is changes in mechanics are not always seen by the naked eye, even those who have good experience. And most who want to use them arent ready.

Seems as though you were very diligent with everything.

One question though: How did you keep mechanics the same if target is different?

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One question though: How did you keep mechanics the same if target is different?

First, we used video. If you do not you are not being smart. We also used it for instant feedback, not after the fact.

We used the release point and related it to the distance and trajectory in a trial and error method. Our main concern was to not have them throwing from 20 feet or 25 feet and throwing to the regulation strike zone. We knew this would retard mechanics. P.S. My wife is a professor of Matmatics and i got ther help. Our goal was to keep mechanics the same and release point the same. It is very delicate because the mechanics can change every time you use a different weighted ball. It is important that you monitor this aspect very closely. I had to make sure there were verbal reenforcement after every pitch and view of tape. One interesting result of the training was an incresed command as well. IT AIN'T FOR EVERYBODY.

I like the way you measured mechanics. Very impressive. IMO that is the only way to utilize overload/underload training in skill-specific movements.

The second mechanics are lost, even slightly, you are no longer training that specific skill and carryover is lost.

I'm just guessing here but I would think neurological connection was extremely high during these sessions and contributed to overall effect. If so that is a tremendous side effect that can really have a great carryover to the field. I include this in all of my strength training workouts and it makes a world of difference in playing ability.

Here is a quote from a doctor, his name is Dr. Ralph Salzer who works with Dr. James Andrews.

"Dr. Saltzer: I don't like weighted balls. I don't think it develops the proper proprioceptive control. Your muscles work by proprioception - that is the biofeedback of where the arm is in space at a given moment and what are the stresses on it at that moment. Those messages are sent to the brain and the brain sends back a response. The movement is initiated. That continues on with every throw.

When you have a heavier ball you are not developing that proprioceptive control. It's basically confusing the brain.

And besides that the extra resistance of the weighted balls can strain the developing tissues. That extra weight is only going to accentuate the problem. I just think there is more potential for trouble than for gain."

Here is more evidence that pitching is speed not strength.

"In a 1983 EMG study by Dr. Frank Jobes, where electrodes were placed around the pitcher's shoulder, it was proven that from the time the pitchers front foot lands until ball release there is little muscle activity going on in the pitcher's shoulder."

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Here is more evidence that pitching is speed not strength.

"In a 1983 EMG study by Dr. Frank Jobes, where electrodes were placed around the pitcher's shoulder, it was proven that from the time the pitchers front foot lands until ball release there is little muscle activity going on in the pitcher's shoulder."

That study must be taken in complete context. I agree with the statement completely. By the time you have footplant the arm is being totally controlled by the lower body. I am talking about getting the arm to move faster coming out of the glove at the break of hands. That is where arm speed begins. After that the body takes over and everything works together. That is why people take about the kinetic chain and timing, etc.

An EMG analysis of the shoulder in pitching. A second report.

Jobe FW, Moynes DR, Tibone JE, Perry J.

This is the second report in a series of projects dealing with electromyographic (EMG) analysis of the upper extremity during throwing. Better understanding of the muscle activation patterns could lead to more effective preseason conditioning regimens and rehabilitation programs. Indwelling wire electrodes recorded the output from the biceps, long and lateral heads of the triceps, pectoralis major, latissimus dorsi, serratus anterior, and brachialis for four professional baseball pitchers. These signals were synchronized electronically with high speed film records of a fast ball. The EMG signals were converted from analog to digital records. Results showed that wind-up and early cocking phases showed minimal activity in all muscles, and such firing which occurred was of low intensity. Late cocking, which occurred after the front foot was firmly planted, showed moderate activity in the biceps. Cocking was terminated by the pectoralis major and latissimus dorsi. At this point, the trunk began to rotate forward, while the arm remained elevated and the elbow flexed. Also, the shoulder was moving to maximum external rotation. During the acceleration phase, the biceps was notably quiescent, while the pectoralis major, latissimus dorsi, triceps, and serratus anterior were all active. Muscle action at this time terminated external rotation and elbow flexion; i.e., the muscles fired as decelerators and also initiated the opposite actions for ball acceleration, internal rotation and elbow extension. Follow-through was not only a time of eccentric contraction with muscle activity decelerating the upper extremity complex, it was also an active event with the shoulder moving across the body and the elbow into extension with forearm pronation.

I don't disagree with Dr. Saltzer's comment. If not done properly, it can confuse the brain. He doesn't say it cannot be done, only that it could be difficult.

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That extra weight is only going to accentuate the problem. I just think there is more potential for trouble than for gain."

He doesn't say it is impossible. I have always stated that it must be done properly.

Here is the question that was asked by Dick Mills to Dr. Saltzer who assisted with Dr. Andrews back in 1986 on Roger Clemons first shoulder surgery.

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D.M.: What about a 9 year old up to a high school pitcher who probably has many of the problems we have talked about - what about them throwing weighted baseballs?

Keep in mind that the quesion is about kids who have problems discussed in the interview. Pretty good reading by the way.

For any who want to read it, here is the link.

Article

It is clear that everyone is not going to agree on the use of weighted balls. That is fine, you are entitled to your own opinion. But in my opinion, if used correctly, weighted balls will help increase your velocity. Some say the increase is from increases in strenth grom the weightroom, growth and development, or better mechanics, but in the article I posted it said that gains were made only in the groups using the weighted balls.

BigHit, you talk about the arm moving faster when it comes out of the glove. Yet at that time, the arm in moving backwards, not forwards, as it goes to the high L position.

Can you expound on the importance of arm speed coming out of the break?

Bighit,
Thanks for the well reasoned and supported arguements you've posted here. They make clear how an agenda can cloud an issue by the out of context use of information.
I would like to add a few things that might further clear some contentious elements of this discussion.
One is that arm speed is a result of good kenetic chain linkage from lower to upper body.
Weighted implement usage can help train the muscles of that chain AND help the athlete better utilize those by developing kenisthetic awareness. The effect can in this way be a multiplier; strengthening and recruiting muscles envolved.
Good mechanics are going to be reinforced through this process.
Bad mechanics will be amplified in a similar way.
It is important that a solid techincal concept and a plan to achieve the practice of that concept be in place prior to working with weighted balls. Indeed it's important to have that in place before undertaking any training program.
Good coaching and/or filming are the best way to insure an optimal result.
Texan; I think the idea would be that the tempo of arm movement should not decelerate after the break. Enen though the arm goes thruogh the "High cocked position" it does not stop there.
Rollerman

The reason you can't be thinking about speeding up the arm as Bighit has been saying is because it will actually slow you down. When you think about doing that it just doesn't work well. If you move you're lower body and stomach fast it brings the arm around quicker and that's where the arm speed comes in. JMO

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BigHit, you talk about the arm moving faster when it comes out of the glove. Yet at that time, the arm in moving backwards, not forwards, as it goes to the high L position.

Can you expound on the importance of arm speed coming out of the break?

Hi Texan, How is your kid doing?

Rollerman answered the question.

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Texan; I think the idea would be that the tempo of arm movement should not decelerate after the break. Enen though the arm goes thruogh the "High cocked position" it does not stop there.
Rollerman

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The reason you can't be thinking about speeding up the arm as Bighit has been saying is because it will actually slow you down.

Only if you don't relax the shoulder after the arm gets started. It is start fast and relax the shoulders to allow the kinetic chain to do its thing. If you tighen up and try to muscle the arm through it won't work. It is like throwing a punch. If you tighten your shoulders and try to punch you will have no speed or power. You stay relaxed to get the speed of the hands going and everything snaps at the last second. Punching has its own kinetic chain. As a former martial artist, instructor and fighter, I am well aware of the core movements, snap of the hips, etc. Though you have to have hand speed, power comes from the ground up to the fist. Same as pitching, but you still need to be fast in the hands and arm.

Bighit, I don't know if I buy that you need to be THINKING about the speed of the hands and arm. I don't want my students thinking about how fast the arm is moving because they probably will have to slow something down to do that. The arm just does it's thing and is nice and loose.

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Bighit, I don't know if I buy that you need to be THINKING about the speed of the hands and arm. I don't want my students thinking about how fast the arm is moving because they probably will have to slow something down to do that. The arm just does it's thing and is nice and loose.

You don't think in games, just in training. If your students don't think in training, they are not learning. Where do you teach? If you don't think in training, when do you think? You don't have to, just ask DM.

Bustamove
Your arguments are so Dick Mills, it's amazing. They're pretty much verbatim. Now, I'm not saying Mills is entirely wrong, or entirely correct either. I happen to agree with much of what he's saying but not everything. The Jobe studies is one area where I disagree. Yes, one of Jobe's studies stated that there is little muscle activation during acceleration but Bighit15 just saved me from searching my own files for the second report. The thing that stood out to me, after reading Mills and Rushall's new book, is the quote I show here from Bighit15's post.

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Originally posted by Bighit15:
During the acceleration phase, the biceps was notably quiescent, while the pectoralis major, latissimus dorsi, triceps, and serratus anterior were all active. Muscle action at this time terminated external rotation and elbow flexion; i.e., the muscles fired as decelerators and also initiated the opposite actions for ball acceleration, internal rotation and elbow extension.

He plainly states that the pecs, triceps, lats and serratus anterior have a role in not only slowing down the external rotation and elbow flexion but that they then initiate the opposite action, meaning acceleration, internal rotation and elbow extension. Mills and Rushall say that these words were "unfortunate" and should have been different. I find that unacceptable. The very study they use to refute muscle activity's role in acceleration states that it actually does "initiate" it.

Now, having said that, I've read studies about the stretch shortening cycle that state that the stretch reflex action that muscles exhibit (which is what I "believe" Jobe is speaking of here) when stretched result in a most powerful contractile response but only for the first 300 ms. Other studies state that, at high speeds, muscle effectiveness is drastically reduced.

So, what's the point of all of this? Maybe you folk can help me with this. Jobe's studies plainly say, to me at least, that muscle activity really is happening in acceleration, despite what Bustamove quotes from Dick Mills. (Busta, do your own study. Your simply passing on what someone else is telling you. Their interpretation.) It does seem that the role of muscle activation/contraction in acceleration is limited to the "initiation" of it.

dm59, I'm not going to do my own study because I'm not a doctor. I state what I know about pitching and like I've said before me and DM have similar beliefs in pitching. Also DM does not do the studies either he just explains them and posts them on his site.

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Originally posted by Bustamove:
I state what I know about pitching

How do you actually "know" anything about pitching? From your posts, you've basically done a "copy & paste" from DM's work. Like I said, it's verbatim.

quote:

Originally posted by Bustamove:
Also DM does not do the studies either he just explains them and posts them on his site.

Yes, and you copy them and bring them here. How about Jobe's second report that both Bighit15 and I quoted where it says that muscular contraction actually initiates acceleration but Mills/Rushall say he's wrong even though this is the fundamental science they "reference" in their book? That's just not logical, I'm afraid. You don't have to be a doctor to read what Jobe said.

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Member
Posted August 03, 2006 03:29 PM
dm59, I'm not going to do my own study because I'm not a doctor. I state what I know about pitching and like I've said before me and DM have similar beliefs in pitching. Also DM does not do the studies either he just explains them and posts them on his site.

Baseball- Throwing Mechanics

Training Pitchers with Overweight and Underweight Baseballs

A review was conducted to determine how throwing overweight and underweight baseballs affects baseball throwing velocity and accuracy. Two studies were found that examined how warming up with overweight baseballs affected throwing velocity and accuracy of 5 oz regulation baseballs. One of these studies showed significant increases in throwing velocity and accuracy, while the other study found no significant differences. Three training studies (6-12 weeks in duration) using overweight baseballs were conducted to determine how they affected ball accuracy while throwing regulation baseballs. No significant differences were found in any study. From these data it is concluded that warming up or training with overweight baseballs does not improve ball accuracy.

Seven overweight and four underweight training studies (6 - 12 weeks in duration) were conducted to determine how throwing velocity of regulation baseballs was affected due to training with these overweight and underweight baseballs. The overweight baseballs ranged in weight between 5.25-17 oz, while the underweight baseballs were between 4-4.75 oz. Data from these training studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs.

Future research is needed to determine what effect, if any, training with overweight and underweight baseballs has on risk of injury. In addition, research should be initiated to determine whether throwing kinematics and kinetics are different between throwing regulation baseballs and throwing overweight and underweight baseballs.

Copyright © 2000, American Sports Medicine Institute
October 05, 2004

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/overweight.htm

TKD, thank you for the information.