What are my chances?

quote:

Originally posted by switchitter:
Here is an example of what you can do with a 5'9" frame much less what you have young man.

Ben Allen - EAST TENNESSEE State (D1 school)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Year: Jr.
Position: IF
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 170

Unfortunately the above is the exception not the rule.

Brought this over from another site.
I took the 1920, 1950 and 2007 Yankees and compared:

1920 1950 2007
Roster Size 26 38 49
Average Weight 177.61 189.52 199.06
Average Height 71.82 72.17 74.26
Percent < 6-00 53.80% 34.20% 10.20%
Smallest Height 5-08 5-09.5 5-10
Lightest 150 165 160
Finished 3rd 1st 2nd
Pitchers 9 15 28

Ref:
1920 - http://baseball-almanac.com/teamstat...p?y=1920&t=NYA
2007 - http://baseball-almanac.com/teamstat...p?y=2007&t=NYA

More to follow.

It would be interesting to see the same info for other MLB teams. It may reflect what I have observed in several top 25 college programs -- most have big, corn-fed boys on their rosters, but a few tend to focus less on height and weight and still do very well.

Take TCU, for example. Looking at its 2007 roster (the latest available), it had 11 of 34 players standing at less than 6 feet, including two 5'8" players and one 5'9" player. Two players weighed in at 155 lbs., including 5'10" middle-infielder Ben Carruthers. Here is some info about Carruthers' performance during his sophomore year last spring:

• Appeared in 60 games and made 55 starts, all at second base.
• Hit .303 on the season with 11 extra base hits.
• Tallied six doubles, one triple and four home runs.
• Drove in 31 runs, scored 35 and stole nine bases in 13 attempts.
• Ranked third on the team with eight sacrifice bunts.
• Hit .368 in conference play, second-best on the team, with five doubles, two home runs and 14 RBIs.
• Was an outstanding fielder, committing just four errors in 267 chances for .985 fielding percentage.
• After an error against Rice on March 9, started a stretch of 161 consecutive errorless plays over the course of 32 games.
• Didn't commit an error in his last 15 games, spanning 73 chances.
• Gave the Frogs the lead with a two-run home run, the first of his career, against Vermont on March 2.
• Following an 0-3 day against Texas A&M, broke out for a nine-game hitting streak that saw him hit .451 (14-for-31) with nine RBIs.
• Hit a three-run home run at Air Force on April 6.
• A three-hit day at Utah on May 4 commenced a career-long 11 game hit streak that saw him hit .385 (15-for-39).
• Picked up just four hits in his final six contests.
• Hit .340 with runners on base and drove in eight two-out runs.

177 responses - from all perspectives - to this young man's inquiry!

I think that is pretty amazing. Whether you agree with each response or not, to me, that's what is so great about this website.

Top D1 colleges are loaded with sub 6' guys as well as several at 6'. I counted 11 on Coastal Carolina, 9 on NC, 8 on Winthrop. Clemsen had 8 or 9 so I am sure most top programs do have between 8-10. Not hard to see so height seems to be overshadowed by ability.
It is probably a slightly different story on pitchers.

I would think college would be more about current skill and projecting what a kid might be by soph year, where the pros are projecting out 3-6 years. Therefore size will matter less to a college program.

I think the projectability thing lends itself more to strength than anything. It also is a proven statistic for pitchers..(taller=less injuries, better angle on batters, ball gets there quicker with less reaction time for batters).

Even though the Yankees stats show a progressive increase in weight and height,,,that is also how america progressed with weight and height for entire population over the last 80 years. With new proven techniques with weight training, better nutrition programs, creatine, and so on, athletes can be shorter and still perform on the field, which is proven with some of the previous posts. I also know many scouts that don't like long arms and fingers on fielders because it takes longer for release of ball. Jeter is 6'3" with long arms and huge hands and so I guess us scouts don't know everything.

quote:

I guess us scouts don't know everything.

You might be right.

quote:

they like to see a kid have enought weight on them to be able to handle all the rigorous changes.

Mine never seemed to have that problem. He would probably say it is the key to his success. His coach just says he's "thick". He hasn't missed a meal since he was 8.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
in regards to weigth and college ball,
a college coach explained to me that there are concerns with players that do not weigh enough becasue of the demand of the collge schedule, practices, games, being away from ome for the first time. I have heard of a lot of freshmen struggling to keep up in all areas , academics and the rigor of the college schedule. they like to see a kid have enought weight on them to be able to handle all the rigorous changes. so that was how some of the I want bigger players was explained to me.

fan, my view is that, in most cases, it is an excuse by the coach for not recruiting a player as opposed to an actual reality.
There are college coaches who want/recruit the player who looks "turnkey" in terms of size rather than the one who is still maturing and developing where they actually have to spend time and effort and work to learn about the player and project how that player will look with another year of growth and with a college strength and conditioning program. In our experience, those same coaches tend to focus on the skills they can see rather than spend the time to measure heart and determination.
As your son progresses through baseball, you find there are coaches and scouts who emphasize what he cannot do or does not have and cast them aside.
You also find those who look at the same player and emphasize the things he can do and can develop.
These types of coaches and scouts also seem to be the ones who spend a lot of time getting to know the players through the recruiting and scouting process.
They recognize that "heart" and "desire" can't be measured with a yardstick nor weighed on a scale but make a competitive difference in college and beyond.

infield dad,
i agree with your post word for word. as they always say it just takes one coach to like your kid.

I have to agree with infielddad, this sound like an excuse for not recruiting the player. If the player has the ability to play at that level, weight means nothing. In fact some coaches think, "I'll get him in the weight room and have the trainer fill him in".
With an unlimited meal plan there should be no issues of losing weight. Some schools have training tables for their players (seperate cafeterias). Athletes learn how to find the time to eat, they have to, trust me.

I say hogwash to the whole theory you have to be big to play in any D1 program. Out of Clemson's 30 on roster, about 1/3 is less than 6 foot. Yes, pitchers may be the exception. It's about ability, not size.

Fanofgame,
Let me get this straight, I know nothing of your son or his skills or the programs he has targeted for recruiting. What I do know is that in several posts, you seem to have given the impression that his lack of weight is a handicap at not playing D1.

My only position is that there is most likely a place for everyone to play, who has the ability to play beyond the HS level. It is not always where the player may want to play. Some players zero in on certain programs, and may actually not be ready to play at that point in time at that particular program or level. I do beleive that is why so many attend JUCO programs and then head off to the school they might have been interested in two years later. They are just not ready, whatever the reason the coach has, to play at that program. What happens is that so many players and their parents become frustrated because we all see things differently than others do. I can tell you that my player, during his first year, often wondered if he was in the right place at the right time. That's how difficult it is. I am not sure that some people actually understand what the larger D1 experience is all about. In this time with rule changes, a player is better off looking for options where he can grow, mature and increase his ability rather than joining a program where he might either sit burning eligibility, get redshirted or replaced later on. Don't get me wrong, redshirting is not a bad thing, but most players and their parents don't like it. They get the impression that the player has failed in his ability, this is not true.
Coaches should be honest with players who want to attend their programs. I know that my sons recruiting coach often told players that he felt were not ready to go where they will play based on their ability.

All coaches recruit differently depending upon their game philososphy. Some run their programs based on power hitting, power pitchering, more LH players than RH players, speed, multi talented players, etc. A good example is where my son attended, if you look at the roster or previous rosters, height is not a main factor. One of our former players was very small, lead off hitter who had a great on base percentage due to his speed. He filled a need. Since coach is very much into the samll ball game, that is a very important factor in recruiting. Also for anyone who has ever played the outfield at that school, due to the field, you must have speed as an outfielder. I also think that hitters that can place the ball either side of the field, quick, is more desirable than the one who could place over the fence, slower. That's why I feel when looking into schools, it's great to find out the coaches plan, because your skills might not fit into their plan.

I know a friend of my sons really wanted to attend the same school as him, a great hitter, but unfortunetly very slow in the OF and on base. While a record breaker in HS, he got very little attention. The dad found this to be offensive when first told, he insisted his son play in a big conference school. You are talking about a 6 footer plus, built like a hummer. He was unable to perform at an ACC school or an SEC school. He became very frustrated. He would have been better off at the mid or smaller D1,D2,D3 where he would have stood out as a hitter or DH, most likely been drafted and now in pro ball (his goal). He no longer plays baseball.
Another good example is a teammate of sons, snubbed at the school of his dreams because hitters held more value than pitchers regardless of size or ability. Two years later he was still snubbed despite improvements in ability and growth, went to Clemson did extremely well despite and drafted quite well. He fit the need as to what the coach was looking for at one school and not another. It was good to see the satisfaction he got after a dominating pitching performance one afternoon.

The school he was interested in as stated being a slugger was more attractive than a pitcher. If you saw their park you would understand, very easy to place one out there. The examples given are sometimes why a player is not recruited at one school and yet another. Different philosophies and different conditions. So that is why I don't buy into the size, weight, height, makeup, etc. argument as an excuse from anyone. If a player's ability is not right for a particular program, the coach should be truthful and forth right. This helps the player and his folks to figure it all out as to where they stand and move forward in the recruiting process, not using size, height, weight, etc. that's why attending a camp or showcase for an accurate evaluation is important. But some people get angry when it doesn't come up as they see themselves and still continue to try to get recruited from school that are not a good fit for them. I'll bet PG has plenty of stories about evaluations where parents are not happy, that's why I like their rating system.

Best of luck to your son. He appearsto be a hard worker. Let him continue to pursue his dream, taking the best route that will get him to where he wants to go.

Hey - TPM - nice post - I didn't realize you had changed your moniker to TPM. Now, everytime a "What is your screen name post" comes up, you will have to post to explain what TPM means

Those are good points about what does a coach recruit. IMHO, using Clemson as an example, they are a power pitching program as their first priority, and that is then supported by great athletes who can play defense and score runs. They had a freshman last year Addison Johnson who can run and started for them in regionals and he must be all of 5-7 on a puffy hair day. Thus, it is crucial to target schools that are inline with your son's strengths. Some coaches love the long ball and like to out-slug people while others will play small-ball if necessary when they have already prioritized pitching and defense in their scholarship allocations. These things can usually be derived from the coach's biography on their websites or simply asking them if one should happen to communicate with them directly.

.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
in regards to weigth and college ball,
a college coach explained to me that there are concerns with players that do not weigh enough becasue of the demand of the collge schedule, practices, games, being away from ome for the first time.

Is that guy coaching show cats or a baseball team?

College baseball at the highest levels, is full of speedy little guys near the top of the order, who excel at either bunting, walking alot, making pitchers throw lots of pitches, hitting the ball on the ground, steal bases, catch the ball with better than average frequency, throwing the ball with better than average accuracy, are good teammates or a combination of two or more of those skills. Making the routine plays and hitting consistantly will earn playing time, regardless of weight

TPM, excellent post! You gave some great, real-life examples.

My son, a late bloomer, was overlooked by many big D1 programs, but I'm actually glad. He probably would have been frustrated trying to compete against kids who were way ahead of him developmentally.

One top-25 team that made it to the Super Regionals last year liked what they saw but probably realized that it would take a while for son to fully reach his physical potential and gave his name to a JUCO that feeds into this school. The initial email from the JUCO coach read in part: "They have passed your name along as someone they would like for us to recruit and they would like to possibly recruit in the future." Had my son been interested in attending a JUCO, this probably would have been an excellent fit.

Another D1 was interested, but in the end didn't offer athletic money. The coach explained: "I still think you are a year away from being a starting shortstop at this level....It would be nice if we could offer you a scholarship and let you grow into the starting job down the road, we just do not have that luxury."

Like you said, "In this time with rule changes, a player is better off looking for options where he can grow, mature and increase his ability rather than joining a program where he might either sit burning eligibility, get redshirted or replaced later on."

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Hey - TPM - nice post - I didn't realize you had changed your moniker to TPM. Now, everytime a "What is your screen name post" comes up, you will have to post to explain what TPM means

Those are good points about what does a coach recruit. IMHO, using Clemson as an example, they are a power pitching program as their first priority, and that is then supported by great athletes who can play defense and score runs. They had a freshman last year Addison Johnson who can run and started for them in regionals and he must be all of 5-7 on a puffy hair day. Thus, it is crucial to target schools that are inline with your son's strengths. Some coaches love the long ball and like to out-slug people while others will play small-ball if necessary when they have already prioritized pitching and defense in their scholarship allocations. These things can usually be derived from the coach's biography on their websites or simply asking them if one should happen to communicate with them directly.

CD,
Haven't had a chance to explain my new name, Fungo reminded me it was time for a change.

Addison Johnson is a perfect example of what I am speaking of. He's terrific and size means nothing to his ability. So much for the theory you have to be big play at a top d1 program.

Another bit of info, if you stand next to JL in person, anything above eye level is considered tall. BTW, he played football and baseball in college, lack of height didn't hurt him either.

.

re-read the whole thread...observations...

Don't confuse of stregnth with size. They are not necessarily the same. Go with stregnth, leave the weight alone. Dead weight is more of a hinder than a help and detracts from speed. Speed is critical.

I was struck dumb last year watching Arizona...players so thin compared to other high end DI teams...But what they lacked in bulk they more than made up for in strength and execution. And this year they are at or near the top of the rankings. Not all coaches look for bulk. The smart ones see strength and execution.

To this...

quote:

Coach May: "Every night I go to bed I ask myself this question. Did I do everything today I could have done to make our program better? Is there anything else I could have done? Did anyone outwork me today? If I can say to myself - I did all I could. And no one outworked me today. Then I had a good day."

I'll add...


I once asked one of the hardest working athletes I worked with...How do you motivate yourself to train at this level...

"I get up early to work out knowing that I have to keep up with the players on the east coast...and I always train late making sure that I am keeping up with the players on the West Coast."

Great concept.

44
.

One thing to keep in mind is what I learned many years back-- know what the college coach is looking for--what game does he play-- some like speed--some like thunder-- a jackrabbit wont work for many coaches nor will thunder for others

Check out how the team plays the game---again it is doing your homework

TPM and I dont agree on many things, that is cool, but I agree here---if you do what you need to do in terms of homework you can find a place to play that will use your skills--there is a place for you if you look hard enough

TR, I am glad we can agree on something.

I'd like to add to my post. My son was being recruited to many schools. One school he was very much interested made a very shocking small offer if for a pitcher of his size and ability, if that is what some base it on. The coach told son outright he needed to use his money for an outfielder who was a power hitter, pitching was not his priority that year. So on to the next, finding his fit where his value was extremely important to a program as a pitcher.

Infield08,
Sounds like your son was being recruited by very honest and helpful coaches and I am sure their responses and evaluations helped your son to focus on where he was most needed and where he could develop, physical maturity and ability. taht's just what it is all about, IMO.

So understand, recruiting is also based on needs of specific programs, not how tall or how big you are.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
yeah maybe it is just an excuse. maybe he just doesnt have the skills to play at a D1. I guess time will tell.but lots of other opportunities are beginning to open up so at least he is playing college baseball.

fan, while, personally, I find all the "chatter" on the HSBBW about DI to be pretty hard to take any more, I do want to emphasize that a DI coach talking about the "size" it takes to succeed is likely making an excuse. But that coaches comments should not be confused with the "talent" it takes to succeed in college baseball and beyond.
Sometimes I think we, as parents, talk to a coach and take as true what they say. One thing we learned for sure is that when it comes to recruiting and talent evaluation, college recruiting coordinators make mistakes all the time in terms of overestimating and underestimating.
BTW, I know your son is focused on DI but, for whatever it is worth, the DIII that our son attended just posted a nice article on their baseball site.
Since 2001, the current coaches have placed 7 of their recruited players in professional baseball through the draft or free agency. Personally, I know that is on par with some DI programs in Northern CA.
Just because the information comes from a DI coach doesn't mean it is good information, when it relates to talent.

infielddad knows of what he speaks. Here's a portion of the article he referred to:

Both players credit making the decision to choose Trinity University over larger Division I schools as a key for making their dreams of playing professional baseball come true.

“For me, I had opportunities at several Division I schools around the country to play college baseball. But Coach Scannell and his staff expressed that I would have the opportunity to play right away as a freshman. And that they would not try to mold me into a slap type hitter but rather help me learn to drive the baseball. I really feel playing at Trinity opened the door for me to play with the Blue Jays.” Armstrong continued, “ I feel that some of the teams I played on at Trinity were equivalent to many Division I schools around the country.”

As for Vera, “ I believed Coach Scannell when he said that if I came Trinity he could place me a competitive collegiate summer league and he did. It was in those summer leagues that I saw I could play with the very best college players from around the country. My confidence as a baseball player just went through the roof and now I am playing in the St. Louis Cardinals organization.”

quote:

Just because the information comes from a DI coach doesn't mean it is good information, when it relates to talent

Agree with this statement.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by infielddad:
fan, while, personally, I find all the "chatter" on the HSBBW about DI to be pretty hard to take any more....

I agree.
However, this seems to be a priority for a lot of players, the D1 experience and equating that to success.
When people pm me about possibilities I am first to suggest an alternative to a D1 program.

Not true.

quote:

However, this seems to be a priority for a lot of players, the D1 experience and equating that to success.

Yup! Having been in a similar position at one point, I can relate.
Wonder if the results/winner of the Pontiac game changing play of the year makes any difference?

fanofgame,

I will speak for myself, maybe I should not have directed my last post towards you.

Some of the things related here happen often not just to your situation. And understand we are all here to help in the process.

What you sermonize is not just based on your faith alone. I am not a christian, I am a strong beleiver that the one you beleive in above chooses a plan for everyone. I also do beleive essentially that good planning and educating oneself to the process helps guide one in the direction intended.

As to not offend anyone, let's leave religion and politics out of the HSBB website.

Where did anyone suggest taking harmful supplements to achieve ones goals?

Some good old fashioned Myoplex does wonders.

Creatine is safe if used correctly and really shouldn't be used until one is older, a personal choice it is not a banned substance. Creatine is a natural substance found in foods, but using it as a supplement improperly may not be in one's best interest.

I saw that in the strength and conditioning thread, I don't agree that a 14 year old should be using creatine, only because 14 year olds may not always follow directions properly. I think those were kids giving advice to kids. My son uses creatine, has since he went to college, recommended for when and proper doses instructed by his trainer.

As far as religion and politics, it was directed to not just you.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
tpm,

Im not taking your responses personally. like you said before were all saying the same things in different ways. we all want our kids to succeed. sounds like yours already is.I like the different ideas and view points and it has helped my family a lot.Its good to voice all opinions and experiences.

fanofgame,

If that is your belief, I can deal with it. Personally, I like to hear how some deal with failure from time to time. How one remains strong when the struggles arrive? My mom and dad came to what events they could when I competed in sports. My mother was usually the only one there because my dad worked a lot. The only thing I ever remember was two questions if she wasn't there. "Howd y'all do?" and "Did ya have a good time?" I didn't feel any pressure to get my name on a dotted line.

Back then, a standardized recruiting letter with a brouchure was given to you at the fieldhouse and one at home if they had your address. Probably just got your name off a list. Never heard from most of them anywho. I never thought that much about anything, except if I was going to be able to provide for myself and a family if I had one. We grew up without a lot of things, but we were always happy and never hungary.

We made our own fun from sun up to sundown. One of the happiest days of my young life was when we moved into town and the house had AC. The good kind, too. Central heat and air. We had gas stoves in the winter. Man, we were living in tall cotton.

I turned out okay, I guess. It just depends on who you ask. I'll just say I was one of the lucky ones and leave it at that.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
lyons,

????have you read this whole post?weve been talking about college baseball and kids playing at the next level. of course eating and a roof over our head is a good thing. just has nothing to do with the last 10 pages of post that was nominated for golden threads. read all the whole thread.

Roger that.....

Read the whole thread. Reminded me of the movies, "Ground Hog Day" and "King Kong". Whole lotta redunancy and chest thumping. The game of life is the highest level of all. Just thought I would remind a few people. Just got me to thinking because my three year granddaughter's other grandmother has a viral infection attached to her heart and was going through a very lengthy operation. She is not expected to live. Could be a matter of hours or a couple of days. Don't need sympathy. Just putting life into perspective.

I'll just say I'm one of the lucky ones

Hey Ennis - if you dont like the "redundancy and the chest thumping " - why dont you just go away?

Do you feel a need to denigrate us?

Whats your deal Ennis?

Then add something constructive to the thread Ennis. I would come on here and talk about my transmission slipping in my pick up truck. Or how home heating costs are sky rocketing. Maybe I could talk about the cost of gasoline. Lets see how many issues that are important could we talk about? I wonder why there is so much discussion on this site about baseball? OH I see its the High School Baseball Website. A place where people who love and enjoy the game come to discuss the game we all love. Now I get it. But there are so many things in life that are more important. Why would you want to spend your time talking about baseball? I tell you what Ennis you go on another site and talk about whats important to you. We will stay here and talk baseball.

Creatine is proven safe and effective. So I don't see why it seems to be a touchy subject with some. It's not like a miracle drug, it's not like steroids. It helps with shorts bursts of energy and power. If taken in the right dosages and with discipline it has it's place. It DOES carry a risk as far as not really knowing long-term affects...but shorter term studies HAVE been done but we just don't know 15-20 years down the road "affects". But isn't that the case with a million drugs that have hit the market (cialis, rogaine, etc.) Creatine is not even a drug, it is a dietary supplement as deemed by the FDA. We already get it within meat and of course our body produces it as well. Protein supplements are everywhere and if you go into a general nutrition store, you will have a huge menu of things to choose from. It is unbelievable. I don't think we should get into a full creatine discussion here in this thread. I have a feeling someone has an area on this web-site for this topic. ALL High School athletes SHOULD ABSOLUTELY talk with their parents BEFORE trying anything new to their system including CREATINE. Some parents are absolutley against that type of thing and so that's fine.