CD,
There are many very successful short armers, however I wouldn't say this kid short arms the ball. Probably the most amazing thing about his velocity is that he doesn't exactly finish in the traditional manner. It almost makes one think that he can throw even harder. The 97 was gunned one pitch, however he threw a lot of 96s. He is very special. IMO
PG - let me ask the question in another way. Who does he remind you of? Perhaps he is unique.
He IS unique! His finish and arm action is similar to Kazmir at the same age IMO. (see the Kazmir video at the same sight) There are some differences in how they use their legs and body and of course Kazmir is left handed with maybe a bit higher arm angle. He (Kazmir) definitely uses more body and legs in his delivery. Both have crazy arm speed and Cole throws a little bit harder at the same age, but not much. He’s bigger than Kazmir, too! I think when I can find and post some better video from different angles you’ll see his delivery a little better. BTW, the NL Cy Young winner finishes high as well.
There is a pitcher at my son's school in JV that has decent velocity (crusing 80 mph touches 83) and gets pretty good movement on his pitches, but always seems get lit up. It's as if the ball finds the bat. I feel bad for the kid.
PG,
Brett Hunter, now at Pepperdine. I hear he's a mid-90s guy these days.
Brett Hunter, now at Pepperdine. I hear he's a mid-90s guy these days.
CD,
I don't see short arming at all from Cole, in fact from my perspective he's a reach back kind of guy with a fairly long arm motion. I can see how we could have different interpretations given the distance and angle on most of the pitches in the clip.
I don't see short arming at all from Cole, in fact from my perspective he's a reach back kind of guy with a fairly long arm motion. I can see how we could have different interpretations given the distance and angle on most of the pitches in the clip.
CADad,
That's what I figured. He is likely to be a first round pick in June as a closer. Tore it up with the national team last summer.
That's what I figured. He is likely to be a first round pick in June as a closer. Tore it up with the national team last summer.
Cole has a "slinger" type of arm action. Very similar to Roy Oswalt's arm action.
RobV,
Good call... There are some similiarities in the arm action of those two.
Good call... There are some similiarities in the arm action of those two.
Similar to my son's. Now if only the velocities were similar too. 
Also Justin Verlander.
Another "slinger".
Another "slinger".
Would you call Pedro a slinger?
quote:Originally posted by YHF:
Would you call Pedro a slinger?
No.
Our HS,
A's pitcher: 83 Top, 78 cruise, 72 Change
most other pitchers are under 80.
But they won the district 2 years ago.
I agree with Mildo Dad, you don't see a lot
of pitchers throw Heat in the Mid-West.
I never saw a kid throw 90s in any HS games.
Even in the college games, 88-90 is most common.
Mid-West is weak compare to West/East coast. IMO
A's pitcher: 83 Top, 78 cruise, 72 Change
most other pitchers are under 80.
But they won the district 2 years ago.
I agree with Mildo Dad, you don't see a lot
of pitchers throw Heat in the Mid-West.
I never saw a kid throw 90s in any HS games.
Even in the college games, 88-90 is most common.
Mid-West is weak compare to West/East coast. IMO
xbcoachoh62,
Which state in the midwest are you from?
Which state in the midwest are you from?
I am going to have to disagree with that:
"Mid-West is weak compare to West/East coast. IMO"
Of course...that's why it's your opinion! But in Illinois, there is definately a lot of talent, and quite a few 90+ pitchers.
"Mid-West is weak compare to West/East coast. IMO"
Of course...that's why it's your opinion! But in Illinois, there is definately a lot of talent, and quite a few 90+ pitchers.
Depending upon how you define "regions", the West Coast had the most number of draft picks per Draft Tracker. The South the second most, the Southeast 3rd, Midwest = 4th, Northeast = last. I posted my results in a new thread called "Draft Picks by State and Region".
85-86, 88 RHP SR
83-84, 86 LHP JR
80-82, 83 LHP SR
83-84, 86 LHP JR
80-82, 83 LHP SR
We had three pitchers and the teams catcher sign NLI's with D-1s. We are hoping for a great year.
Cruise Top
#1 88-90 92
#2 83-85 87
#3 81-83 86
Cruise Top
#1 88-90 92
#2 83-85 87
#3 81-83 86
# 1: 78-81 83
#2: 84-87 88
#3 (lefty): 78-81 84
That number one was 5th in area ERA in a major city/area. And beat a first round MLB draft pick. It ain't all about speed. But find me someone who does not want to throw at least 90... and I'll find you an eleven year old who can throw it 100yards... oh wait, sorry, already found one (it was insane).
There actually is reason for my stating that. Is there a true correlation between throwing 100 yards and throwing 90mph. Someone told me that and I wasn't sure.
#2: 84-87 88
#3 (lefty): 78-81 84
That number one was 5th in area ERA in a major city/area. And beat a first round MLB draft pick. It ain't all about speed. But find me someone who does not want to throw at least 90... and I'll find you an eleven year old who can throw it 100yards... oh wait, sorry, already found one (it was insane).
There actually is reason for my stating that. Is there a true correlation between throwing 100 yards and throwing 90mph. Someone told me that and I wasn't sure.
Dtiger, here is a very interesting website developed by FSU engineering students. It was developed to test distances of batted balls but it is also valid for thrown balls.
How Far to Throw 90
Open the link, then do the following:
1. Type in "90" for speed
2. Change the angle to 36. 34-38 is optimal angle and when you throw a ball for distance you naturally do this.
3. You can change variables for altitude, wind speed, etc. if you want.
Note that 90 at sea level is 315 feet.
90 at 1000 altitude is 320 feet.
90 at 5280 (mile high) is 337 feet.
So a 300 foot throw is really only about 87.
How Far to Throw 90
Open the link, then do the following:
1. Type in "90" for speed
2. Change the angle to 36. 34-38 is optimal angle and when you throw a ball for distance you naturally do this.
3. You can change variables for altitude, wind speed, etc. if you want.
Note that 90 at sea level is 315 feet.
90 at 1000 altitude is 320 feet.
90 at 5280 (mile high) is 337 feet.
So a 300 foot throw is really only about 87.
My son throws over 320 feet, but the highest velocity he's been clocked at is 85, only reaching that 2 or 3 times total on separate occasions.
MTS,
Then the ability to throw a ball 90 mph is there. You just can't get a ball to go that far without throwing it about 90 mph unless you have the wind behind you, are taking the starting point of the crow hop rather than the release point of the throw, including the roll, etc.
It isn't all that unusual for a player to have the arm strength and not be able to bring it to the mound. We've got a pitcher like that who I gunned at 83 max. My son who hits 83 max fairly easily and who I've gunned as high as 85 has never thrown further than 285'. My son tells me this other pitcher can throw the ball a lot further than he can.
It may also depend on what type of gun you are using. Some readings we've gotten lately indicate that my JUGS may read a couple mph slower than some other JUGS. That may also be wishful thinking on my part.
Then the ability to throw a ball 90 mph is there. You just can't get a ball to go that far without throwing it about 90 mph unless you have the wind behind you, are taking the starting point of the crow hop rather than the release point of the throw, including the roll, etc.
It isn't all that unusual for a player to have the arm strength and not be able to bring it to the mound. We've got a pitcher like that who I gunned at 83 max. My son who hits 83 max fairly easily and who I've gunned as high as 85 has never thrown further than 285'. My son tells me this other pitcher can throw the ball a lot further than he can.
It may also depend on what type of gun you are using. Some readings we've gotten lately indicate that my JUGS may read a couple mph slower than some other JUGS. That may also be wishful thinking on my part.
It is not uncommon at all for some kids to have very strong arms from their posistion and then not be able to throw very hard from the hill. I have seen kids that had an absolute hose from the outfield or 3b etc and then get on the mound and they can not translate it to pitching.
quote:It is not uncommon at all for some kids to have very strong arms from their posistion and then not be able to throw very hard from the hill.
I have seen this often
He can throw it field goal to field goal from release. He does the Jaeger approved version of the crow-hop. I believe I've seem him have more velocity making a throw from the 5-6 hole to 1st base than pitching.
MTS,
Have you considered having him work with the pitching coach at Pierce? From what I've seen of his giving lessons while Alan's long toss camps are going on he seems quite competent.
Have you considered having him work with the pitching coach at Pierce? From what I've seen of his giving lessons while Alan's long toss camps are going on he seems quite competent.
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
It is not uncommon at all for some kids to have very strong arms from their posistion and then not be able to throw very hard from the hill. I have seen kids that had an absolute hose from the outfield or 3b etc and then get on the mound and they can not translate it to pitching.
Why is this, can you explain?
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
MTS,
Have you considered having him work with the pitching coach at Pierce? From what I've seen of his giving lessons while Alan's long toss camps are going on he seems quite competent.
Eric Hiljus used to be his pitching coach but he retired. My son just had a first bullpen with Derron Spiller.
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
It is not uncommon at all for some kids to have very strong arms from their posistion and then not be able to throw very hard from the hill. I have seen kids that had an absolute hose from the outfield or 3b etc and then get on the mound and they can not translate it to pitching.
Why is this, can you explain?
Sluggo, I think in the field they create a lot more momentum or forward motion, especially in the outfield with a crow hop. My son has always thrown 5 mph faster from a crow hop than pitching.
quote:the crow hop
I've always long tossed without any crop hop. Just a step and a release. Is this a bad idea? I always thought that the idea was to build armstrength, and that crow hopping would detract the benefits from the arm...
MTS,
Who is Spiller? I saw Hiljus throw at one of Alan's camps when he was suspended from AAA for a while. I was amazed that someone with good velocity and what seemed to me to be excellent control didn't have good enough command to stick in the big leagues.
I ran into Lidle a few years back and we talked about Hiljus a bit. I'm sending you a pm.
One of these days we'll need to get CASon to a pitching coach but I'm not looking for anyone who'd try to make any significant changes in his mechanics. I'd just like to have someone work with him on the mental part of pitching, to help him refine his off speed pitches and to work on a 2 seamer.
Who is Spiller? I saw Hiljus throw at one of Alan's camps when he was suspended from AAA for a while. I was amazed that someone with good velocity and what seemed to me to be excellent control didn't have good enough command to stick in the big leagues.
I ran into Lidle a few years back and we talked about Hiljus a bit. I'm sending you a pm.
One of these days we'll need to get CASon to a pitching coach but I'm not looking for anyone who'd try to make any significant changes in his mechanics. I'd just like to have someone work with him on the mental part of pitching, to help him refine his off speed pitches and to work on a 2 seamer.
It depends on your position whether or not to use a crow hop.
I would think as a position player, you would want to simulate the type of throwing that you would do in a game (i.e crow hop).
For a pitcher, it would make sense NOT to use a crow hop when long tossing.
I would think as a position player, you would want to simulate the type of throwing that you would do in a game (i.e crow hop).
For a pitcher, it would make sense NOT to use a crow hop when long tossing.
I have always had our guys crow hop once they reach a distance that they can not throw without a crowhop. Using just a step does not allow you to max out your throwing distance. We want to max out our distance on a line and then start putting some arc on it to max out again. We always throw to a target. But this is just my opinion. Their are ml coaches that do not agree on the proper way to long toss. Some feel you should never go back more than 150' for pitchers. Some feel you should only throw on a line. Everyone is never going to agree on the proper way to do it. But everyone that has a clue does agree that a long toss program that the player is consistent in using will build arm strength. What works for your kid? What does he feel comfortable with? That is the gauge I would use. When his college coach or pro coach decides for him then that is what I would do. As a HS coach I have a long toss program I like. But if a player says "Coach it bothers my arm to not crowhop". or "Coach I feel I get alot more out of it when I crowhop" or "I dont feel comfortable with a crowhop" - then I let the guys do what feels good to them and more natural. Everyones arm reacts different. Do what works for you. Believe me kids are different.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
MTS,
Who is Spiller? I saw Hiljus throw at one of Alan's camps when he was suspended from AAA for a while. I was amazed that someone with good velocity and what seemed to me to be excellent control didn't have good enough command to stick in the big leagues.
I ran into Lidle a few years back and we talked about Hiljus a bit. I'm sending you a pm.
One of these days we'll need to get CASon to a pitching coach but I'm not looking for anyone who'd try to make any significant changes in his mechanics. I'd just like to have someone work with him on the mental part of pitching, to help him refine his off speed pitches and to work on a 2 seamer.
Hiljus was very much about injury prevention and it was a pleasure to work with him. He never used a radar gun in any of his sessions. Derron Spiller runs the local Cardinals Scout Team. I think he helped Jason Hirsh's brother get a look from the Cardinals despite an 88 mph fastball. A one hour session consists of about 1/2 hour working without throwing to warm-up stretch and warm-down after throwing. During the actual throwing he does not want to see any curveballs or sliders. My son warmed-up before the session playing Buns-Up with his 8 year old brother.
If I remember Matt was an 88 max guy, but I could be wrong. He's also pretty tall, but about 3" shorter than Jason.
Some of the HS teams pretty much shut down this time of year but we're playing a game a week and my son is throwing a couple pens a week in addition to pitching a couple innings. They'd probably let him do one of the pens with a pitching coach in the evening as I think some of the other pitchers are working with pitching coaches.
Some of the HS teams pretty much shut down this time of year but we're playing a game a week and my son is throwing a couple pens a week in addition to pitching a couple innings. They'd probably let him do one of the pens with a pitching coach in the evening as I think some of the other pitchers are working with pitching coaches.
CAdad I will send you a PM
I gunned our sophmore pitcher last weekend and he was consistently 83 with one at 84 on my JUGS. Surprisingly, he was throwing the ball by hitters at that speed. Since one of the schools we played against had gotten our pitchers consistently a couple mph faster with their JUGS than I had I checked my gun against a JUGS they have at the local batting cage and mine read a couple mph slower on 6 or 7 pitches. There were a couple that were only 1 mph slower, a couple the same and one where mine was actually 2 mph faster on. So I think this kid was cruising 84 or 85 on most JUGS.