What are the velocities of your HS team rotation?

here are our top 5...

89-90-92
86-87-90
84-86-88
84-85-87
83-84-86

Our main 3:

87-90(92)
85-87(88)
80-83(85)

Sr 88-90 NC State recruit 3B
Jr 84-86 Lazy might get cut has talent
Sr 77-79 Great kid battles and competes
Sr 87-89 Catcher wont pitch much at all.UNC recruit

Stalker readings
JV
Soph 75-77
Soph 77-79
Soph 74-76

Could be a tough season in 09

Coach, your post sticks out to me, in a good way.

quote:

Coach May posted: Jr 84-86 Lazy might get cut has talent

Just curious Coach, generally speaking in your experience, what is effective, if anything, in motivating this type of kid. More specifically, does he know he might get cut?

Kind of an interesting thread...I'll be anxious to follow it. A few years ago when I'd read on our local message board about this kid and that kid being high 80's with some 90 guys, I'd trot out to their next game and watch the parents' guns.

Almost never were they anywhere close to 90. Most commonly they were 82-84, maybe topping out around 86.

Yes, of course there were a couple of 90 guys, but only a couple per year and the reality it seems to me is pitching velocities in HS are almost always over-reported. Most HS varsity pitchers are in the low 80s, some (pretty good ones) are even down in the high 70s. If you've got 2 guys in the high 80s, you've got a pretty special duo.

This Fall I've watched a league with some of the best HS players in the area. Haven't seen any gun readings, but I'd guess out of 10 or so teams I've seen only 2-3 pitchers who I thought were consistently above 85 for an inning or two.

I'm just basing that view on a few years of paying attention to this stuff in an area that routinely produces quite a few D1 pitchers. Nothing official or scientific about it...just observation.

Its very common to hear one thing and see another. We all know that. I always tell the truth and maybe understate it at times because my credibility is very important to my players. In fact its everything. When I say a kid throws 88-90 on a stalker he throws 88-90 on a stalker. Period , no if ands or butts. If I had a penny for everytime I have heard "He is 88 all day long". And then I see the kid and he is 82 all day long I would be a rich man. And so would the rest of you.

As far as this kid. He has been told that if he did not pick up his work ethic and start showing that he was willing to work as hard as everyone else he is going to get cut. He is definitely our #2. He is our 5 hole guy in the line up as well. He is just flat out lazy. Im sorry its just the truth. We have tried just about everything but it seems he knows that he will get innings and hit so he thinks we are blowing smoke. Im sorry to say it but Im not going to send that message to the rest of our team and our younger players. Im going to send the message "You will work as hard as everyone else or you will get cut. I dont care how much you could help our team." I can not allow players to start thinking that we have to have them because of this or that. No you have to work hard or your azz will be gone.

Coach May - My comments weren't directed at you (or anyone else). Just making a general observation which you seem to have confirmed from your own observations.

In the past 5-6 years I can think of only 1 or 2 local HSs with 2 or more guys in the high 80s day after day.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Im sorry if I responded in a way that made you think that. I did not believe it was directed at me. You know as well as I do that pitchers velocity is at the top of the list of fish stories in sports. I just wish that people would realize when they do this they hurt kids not help them. If I am anticipating seeing 88-90 and I show up and see 84-86 Im sitting there saying "Here we go again". But if Im anticipating seeing 84-86 and I get something in that range Im very happy and now Im looking at delivery , arm slot , movement , command , off speed stuff , make up , etc etc. Man sooner or later someone is going have to see it. Why tell all the BS knowing that its not going to hold up when someone comes calling? I have never understood this mentality. The 90 mph fb fish story is just above the 1.9 pop fish story and that is just above the 6.6 60 fish story.

I think sometimes it comes from people that never get out and see a wide range of the game. They are used to seeing 78-80 and they think its 85. And then they see 85 and say "Man hes throwing gas! Thats got to be 90"! The more you see top level pitching and velocity the more you have an understanding of what it looks like. But I could go on all night about this one. It can get down right ridiculous.

here's mine:
1. sr: 80-81
2. soph: 79-81
3. sr 74 (lefty)

heres our top 4

So- Fastball,curve,change,slider: 86-71-76-70
Sr- Fastball,curve,change,knuck: 80-69-70-???(effective is all I can say)
Jr: Fastball,curve,change: 79,67,70
Jr: Fastball,curve,change,slider: 81-69-70-71

Here's ours:

1. Sr. 88-92 (stalker)
2. Jr. 85-89 (stalker)
3. Sr. 80-84 estimate
4. Sr. 80-84 estimate

Whats a stalker?

Its a radar gun. There are two main guns used to take velocity readings in baseball. The juggs gun and the stalker. The stalker is used by most if not all ml teams and most college as well. The juggs gun tends to read around 2 mph higher from my experience.

I tend to forget that most on here(I guess) are fairly familiar with what good pitching looks like, and you forget that there are still people out there, including journalists,who don't bother to check facts for a story. I forwarded a story to Coach May about a kid down our way who signed last week with a prominent D1 school. Coach May, and I both know the kid, and what his strengths are as a pitcher. He's very good, with a tremendous curve ball, and a fastball that usually runs mid 80s. The writer, at the end of the article, had to add that the kid's 95 mph fastball might just get him drafted.

I've noticed that I can reliably gauge whether a fastball is 90 or above by its sound. Not the pop of the catcher's mitt, but the sound it makes in the air. It has a buzz made by the laces and the spin that just doesn't happen with an 85 mph pitch.

So when I see a kid that someone tells me throws 90, if there is no gun there, I just listen.

This is a bit off topic so sorry. When college recruiters or scouts look at a pitcher that say, cruises at 86-88, but occasionally touches 90, do they care more about the cruising speed or what the top speed is?

quote:

Originally posted by SoutherNo1:
I tend to forget that most on here(I guess) are fairly familiar with what good pitching looks like, and you forget that there are still people out there, including journalists,who don't bother to check facts for a story. I forwarded a story to Coach May about a kid down our way who signed last week with a prominent D1 school. Coach May, and I both know the kid, and what his strengths are as a pitcher. He's very good, with a tremendous curve ball, and a fastball that usually runs mid 80s. The writer, at the end of the article, had to add that the kid's 95 mph fastball might just get him drafted.

I know your point was that the journalist didn't quite have his facts straight however I got a chuckle of the journalist last comment.

"His 95 mph fastball might just get him drafted", gee you think so?

quote:

Originally posted by YHF:
This is a bit off topic so sorry. When college recruiters or scouts look at a pitcher that say, cruises at 86-88, but occasionally touches 90, do they care more about the cruising speed or what the top speed is?

I'm certainly no expert however I would think it is the cruising speeds that make the most difference to colleges and pro scouts.

It's nice to know a kid can crank it up if needed however where you live for the majority of your pitches is what a coach can count on in the heat of battle.

YHF,

In our experience, the ability to throw effortlessly (what looks like 88 maybe 92) was more impressive to some than the actual number hit. Sink of the FB was also more important topic of conversation rather than hitting 90.

Hitting 90 is a way to get you noticed. If a young pitcher can hit 90, effortlessly, it may mean as he gets older his velocity will increase and so will his cruising speed, off speed pitches and anything else that is necessary to get batters out.

I think your answer depends on what a particular coach is looking for. I have found more to be impressed with the various drop in speeds , command and movement of pitches than the actual number hit and cruising speed. JD is correct, coaches like to know that pitchers can crank it up when they have to. But good pitching is timing, if the FB is flat and you can't keep the hitter guessing, it doesn't matter what number you hit. JMO.

I agree TPM.. 90 will get 'em to the park, but then they start looking carefully. I know of a prospect (at least I thought he was a prospect) that could throw 92 all day long but he couldn't get a smell... I guess there were blemishes the scouts just wouldn't ignore.

just...agree with your post 100%. And you're in California!

Been to a ton of tournaments and showcases and not a single pitcher except Chad Billingsley in the fall of 2001 or 2002 at a showcase in Iowa, hit his "top out" velocity for any length of time in a 2 inning stint.

Coached a kid in 2002, drafted in the 3rd round and hit 90-92 consistently. Could only do it for an inning or two and then was at 86-89. If he was "on" he was magnificent. Ugliest thing you ever saw if he wasn't on.

If you have high schoolers, 4 or 5 of them hitting 86+, you have a group of pro prospects.

Most high school kinds are DRAMATICALLY LOWER than reported.

Was at a clinic years ago and Tom Seaver (not bad in his day) was talking about pitching. He said the 3 most important things in pitching were in the following order.
1. Location
2. Movement
3. Velocity

Saint Johns College High School - Washington, DC

Number One Pitcher- 89-93 Fastball
Number Two Pitcher -87-90 Fastball
Number Three -86-88 Fastball

May I try and sober you all up

Yes ! There are those HS teams every now and then with a staff of two or three arms in the low 90's /high 80's, it does happen, but in the real world if a HS team has one arm at the 85 MPH range they are doing well---most arms at the HS level at in the 78 to 82 range

Just speaking from my experience

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Was at a clinic years ago and Tom Seaver (not bad in his day) was talking about pitching. He said the 3 most important things in pitching were in the following order.
1. Location
2. Movement
3. Velocity

A few years back my son took pitching lessons from former KC Royal Steve Busby and was told the three most important things in pitching in no particular order were:
1. Location
2. Location
3. Location

He also stated that if you are a lefty (my son is) and you can throw the ball 60 feet 6 inches, someone will give you a look.
My son is a freshman at a D1 and most of the credit goes to Mr. Busby. Laid the pitching foundation for my son.

subtract 5 mph on what ever they say they throw

Frank,

Very scientific approach. LOL

I gunned every kid in East Texas that threw "90+". There must have been 50 of them. When I gunned them, very few hit it. My son's high school team had 3 in the 90s in three consecutive years. One was a second round pick last draft. The other two are in college now.

As far as what scouts are looking at. It depends upon the scout. They often want to see what a young player can top out at to see potential or projected top speed later. The range is important, but they are looking for the "mode." The predominant fastball speed. In fact, I've heard many scouts recently say, "The kid mode's at 88.", etc. However, some kids cut and sink (and run) the ball by changing their grip or pressure of their fingers and that fastball will be slower than the four-seam let-it-fly fastball. The mode in MLB is reportedly 88 - 89. In all fairness, that includes fastballs with cut, sink, etc.

I don't think most of the reported velocities in this thread will show up on my gun. I agree with many who said they sound inflated. I gunned a game last year in Oklahoma with many drafted and D-1 players and saw mid-80s to low-90s, but not a lot of low 90s.

Bear in mind that's an average of 5 plus or minus 3. I've seen speeds inflated as much as 9 or 10. My son said he purposely threw slow when BBpapa showed up with the gun, you know how kids like to ease up when they see a gun.

Speaking of velocity - how come we never get a speed reading of how fast one of those 90MPH pitches leaves the park?

I saw a 92 mph fastball come off the bat at 105 mph and barely missed the pitchers face by inches.
The fastest amateur pitchers I seen 2 pitchers in th ACC at 97 mph on the stalker gun.

High school level have seen 95 mph on the stalker gun.

Will when Tom Seaver said it was location , movement then velocity he could say that because he had velocity. Every ML pitcher has a certain level of velocity or they wouldnt be there. It then becomes more important to locate it and have some movement. The fact is if you throw 70 but you have outstanding control and movement it wont matter. You wont get the chance to show that control and movement. Velocity (a certain level) is the most important factor. Without a certain amount of velocity you wont pitch in hs muchless in college or professional baseball. Velocity will get you an opportunity to see if you can learn to command it.

Most HS programs have one guy in the 78-82 range and everyone else in the 77-80 range if they have that. Last year we had a kid in the low 90's drafted by Tampa , a jr upper 80's , a jr mid 80's and a soph low 80's. Thats pretty stout for a hs progam. South Caldwell HS had Bumardner 1st Rd pick mid 90's, Justin Poovey Florida recruit low 90's and Jimmy Messer 08 88-90. But those situations are very rare. We have a Sr this year 88-90 a JR mid 80's so we are ahead of the average hs program this year. But next year we will be back to average with one guy in the mid 80's and the rest in the upper 70's.

The fact is if you have one guy in the mid 80's your doing good. Heck most teams dont have that. Velocity is the most lied about tool in baseball. The average hs varsity pitcher is probaly in the 77-79 range imo.

Best speed I have seen last year was: 1 hr 30 minutes, 87 pitches; 8 innings, Clemson vs Maryland.


Top 5 Best Fastballs 1970-1974
1. Nolan Ryan
2. Vida Blue
3. Goose Gossage
4. Steve Carlton
5. Tom Seaver

Top 5 Best Fastballs 1965-1969
1. Sam McDowell
2. Bob Gibson
3. Don Wilson
4. Tom Seaver
5. Sandy Koufax

Top 5 Best Fastballs 1960-1964
1. Sandy Koufax
2. Don Drysdale
3. Dick Radatz
4. Bob Gibson
5. Steve Barber

Top 5 Best Fastballs 1955-1959
1. Herb Score
2. Ryne Duren
3. Bob Turley
4. Sandy Koufax
5. Don Drysdale

Top 5 Best Fastballs 1950-1954
1. Robin Roberts
2. Curt Simmons
3. Mike Garcia
4. Mickey McDermott
5. Don Newcombe

Top 5 Best Fastballs 1945-1949
1. Rex Barney
2. Bob Feller
3. Hal Newhouser
4. Ewell Blackwell
5. Virgil Trucks

Top 5 Best Fastballs 1940-1944
1. Hal Newhouser
2. Ray Flanigan
3. Bob Feller
4. Virgil Trucks
5. Dizzy Trout

Top 5 Best Fastballs 1935-1939
1. Bob Feller
2. Atley Donald
3. Johnny Allen
4. Van Mungo
5. Leon Day

Top 5 Best Fastballs 1930-1934
1. Lefty Grove
2. Van Mungo
3. Satchel Paige
4. Dizzy Dean
5. George Earnshaw

cheers
Bear

Coach May.

Everybody is enamored with velocity. Over the years I had kids with good velocity good control they were successful. Kids with good velocity and poor control not too successful. Many times kids see that radar gun and mechanics go out the window. Good mechanics helps velocity. I think you have a live arm or you do not. What you do with it takes doing things right. The best pitch in baseball is strike one and I do agree a 95 mile hour strike with a little movement is the best.

quote:

I've noticed that I can reliably gauge whether a fastball is 90 or above by its sound. Not the pop of the catcher's mitt, but the sound it makes in the air. It has a buzz made by the laces and the spin that just doesn't happen with an 85 mph pitch.

So when I see a kid that someone tells me throws 90, if there is no gun there, I just listen

Agreed 100 percent......i dont need to see a radar gun to know we have reached 90+

The raised seams on a HS ball literally hiss at you as they come in.

We've had this discussion before, but I'll say again, when you say "average", are you talking about the average speed of all the kids on your team you consider on the pitching depth chart? Or the average speed of a fastball thrown at any time during the year?

Because the first average includes a few kids you may never throw in a game, or may throw only in a mop-up role. The second average takes into account that your harder throwers likely throw most of your innings.

We have a district with 9 AAA level teams. Two are hapless, inner city programs. On the other 7 teams you will find 11 seniors on their way to Division I or II scholarships and almost all of them have pitched at one time or another. Last year in our district we saw three seniors (2007's), two of whom are now at UVA and one is at East Carolina. I saw the RADAR guns of the scouts when these guys threw against us and there was no exaggerating. One lefty threw 88-92, a righty was 89-92, and the other lefty was 87-89. Our team was strong, so this is what we got to see most of our district games -- other teams' aces. One of these kids made the Junior National Team and another was drafted, so you can tell me I'm exaggerating if you want but it just ain't so.

With all due respect to TRHit, up in CT you probably don't see the velocities we do. Kids down here don't play hockey in the winter, they train for baseball.

A program like St. John's College Prep -- you're talking about a private school that draws a lot of elite baseball talent because of their baseball reputation. I have no trouble believing the numbers Trepfan posted because I know who he's talking about, and he's not even including an outfielder they have who sometimes throws in relief and is fully capable of 95 mph.

On our team, we have "co-#1" starters who will probably handle 2/3 or our innings between them. One is a righty who cruises 91-93 and can hit 95-96 on a good day. The other is a lefty who cruises 86-87 and can hit 89 on a good day.

We have a third kid who can throw 86-87, but he is only now taking up pitching after focusing on catching exclusively all through youth ball. (He's still our starting catcher.)

But then it does drop off. We have a junior who is your crafty lefty type, cruises 78-81 and tops at 83 max. Then we have 4-5 guys who might get an inning here or there who are all in the 78-82 range.

So I guess you could say we have 9 guys and if you average them all out, the average would be 83-84 max. But if you talk about who you're likely to see on any given day or in any given inning, the speed will be much more challenging.

In our district, our top competition will feature a guy who cruises 86-87, maxes at 89. There are probably 8 other guys in the 85-87 range throughout the district. Happily we won't be seeing any other 90+ guys this year that I know of, so maybe Midlo Son's average will rise this year?

Quick story about velocity. My son was on his official visit to his D1 school. His team buddy was having breakfast with us. He stated matter-of-factly that, according to the pitching coach, velocity was only #4 in importance behind movement, location, and deception.

Surprised by this, I asked him "Are you sure?" Yes, that's exactly what coach had told him.

The next day we were having breakfast with both the pitching coach and the team buddy. "Hey coach," said the team buddy, "I told Bum Jr. exactly what you told me, that velocity is only #4 on the list which includes movement, location, and deception."

The coach looked at him blankly, paused, and then asked: "Did you tell him WHY velocity is only #4 on the list?"

"No..not sure what you mean."

"Because by the time you get here you better already have it."

You want to know what amazes me the most?

We almost never see 10K games.

Kids these days LIVE to hit the fastball! And seeing high mph so frequently, they get used to the speed.

In my day, if you threw upper 80's, you could simply blow away the entire opposing lineup without really having to PITCH. (We never saw anyone throw 90 in those days.) Velocity is obviously a great advantage, but it better not be all you got.

Jr. LHP 80-83: 1st team all-conference and 2nd all-county
Jr. RHP 83-85: knows how to pitch and carved teams up all summer and fall
Jr. RHP 80-83: coming back from arm injury
Sr. RHP 84-86: no work ethic, complete waste of size....6'5

after those....we have NOTHING. God forbid anyone gets hurt we will be in serious trouble