Midlo Dad, typically speaking...your right. But my old school was #1 preseason in the country last year and finished #2. I'd love to watch any team go against the SHP 07 staff.
Rick Porcello: cruised at 92-94..could crank it to 95+ with MLB offspeed stuff, hit 100mph.
Evan Danieli: 89-92, and a HUGE curveball...at Notre Dame
Joe Spano: LHP 87-89, good offspeed stuff too...early commit to Notre Dame
Than Roe: 85-87, sharp curve too...early commit to SHU
Those are just the top 4...they still had more pitchers, most of which would have been #1s at other schools.
I mentioned earlier the staff last year at South Caldwell HS. Madison Bumargner at 94-95 LHP 1st Rd Pick , Justin Poovey at 92-94 RHP Florida , Jimmy Messer at 88-90 UNC recruit. Now is that average? No in fact its far from it. Also last year here in NC at Fred Foard HS they had Trent Rothlin 91-93 Clemson , Aaron King LHP 87-89 Surry CC , Chad Rothlin 86-87 UNCC , Andrew Wyantt USC Upstate 85-87. Thats four guys in your rotation in HS three D-1 and 1 that would have been if not for grades. But these are the exceptions when you talk about HS baseball across the nation.
Last year at our HS Chris Luck 91-93 Pratt Maynard 87-89 Nash Blackley 86-88 Josh Darroach 83-85. That is the exception not the rule for us. In 09 we will have one guy in the 80's.
The average high school is lucky to have one guy in the mid 80's and many are lucky to one guy in the 80's. But the numbers are growing. More and more kids are throwing harder. More and more kids are training year round. I agree with Midlodad in my day if a kid was upper 80's to 90 he just blew it by everyone. Times have changed. Baseball players as a whole are alot better for many reasons.
We all know that many times velo is said to be one thing and many times learned to be another thing. But the fact is the numbers are up. And I believe it is because the training has greatly improved. Just like the hitters are much better and capable of hitting this type of pitching much better than in my day.
Last year at our HS Chris Luck 91-93 Pratt Maynard 87-89 Nash Blackley 86-88 Josh Darroach 83-85. That is the exception not the rule for us. In 09 we will have one guy in the 80's.
The average high school is lucky to have one guy in the mid 80's and many are lucky to one guy in the 80's. But the numbers are growing. More and more kids are throwing harder. More and more kids are training year round. I agree with Midlodad in my day if a kid was upper 80's to 90 he just blew it by everyone. Times have changed. Baseball players as a whole are alot better for many reasons.
We all know that many times velo is said to be one thing and many times learned to be another thing. But the fact is the numbers are up. And I believe it is because the training has greatly improved. Just like the hitters are much better and capable of hitting this type of pitching much better than in my day.
Everybody likes to brag on the highest number they ever threw. Well, on any given day their peak speed will be 2-3 mph below that, and you usually cruise 2-3 below your peak. So if someone claims 5 mph higher than you see them at, that's probably par for the course.
Midlo
With all respect to you and your thinking--YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG !!!!
With all respect to you and your thinking--YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG !!!!
I think Midlo is correct. I've seen many pitchers who hit 1 - 3 mph over their typical peak speed in a game and they do normally cruise at a range under that.
In the TCL All-star game the stadium gun showed higher than my Stalker. Some was angle (mine was bad) and other may be type of gun.
I question some of the MLB stadium guns. I think they came with steroids. I believe that in some stadiums the pitcher's velocity is lower than the stadium gun shows.
There is a high school kid in a neighboring high school that is legit and supposedly throws mid-90's. He will draft first day & I am looking forward to seeing him later.
In the TCL All-star game the stadium gun showed higher than my Stalker. Some was angle (mine was bad) and other may be type of gun.
I question some of the MLB stadium guns. I think they came with steroids. I believe that in some stadiums the pitcher's velocity is lower than the stadium gun shows.
There is a high school kid in a neighboring high school that is legit and supposedly throws mid-90's. He will draft first day & I am looking forward to seeing him later.
quote:There is a high school kid in a neighboring high school that is legit and supposedly throws mid-90's. He will draft first day & I am looking forward to seeing him later.
Nothing is a guarentee when it comes to the draft, regradless of how hard one throws, and a lot can happen from now until draft day, something to keep in mind.
By sight/experience, not a gun, I'd say our high school's two fastest pitchers are mid 80's. One can't throw consistant strikes. One has no movement and gets cranked. The rest are in the 80-82 range except one lefty in the upper 70's who slops it up to the plate (effectively if one time through in relief). The team was weak last year.
Our HS team's best pitcher for the last two years (he is a senior this year) doesn't quite hit 80.
As a sophomore he went 8-0 and was league pitcher of the year. As a junior he went 7-1 and was league pitcher of the year and 2nd team all state.
All he does is get outs. He is about 5'6". He has a huge heart, a funky release, great control, and two different curve balls and changes arm slots for different pitches. (I know this is controversial, but he does it.)
My son has been catching him since little league. He is a great kid, a winner all the way. I'm really wondering if any colleges will give him a shot.
As a sophomore he went 8-0 and was league pitcher of the year. As a junior he went 7-1 and was league pitcher of the year and 2nd team all state.
All he does is get outs. He is about 5'6". He has a huge heart, a funky release, great control, and two different curve balls and changes arm slots for different pitches. (I know this is controversial, but he does it.)
My son has been catching him since little league. He is a great kid, a winner all the way. I'm really wondering if any colleges will give him a shot.
I am just curious - and will probably get hammered for this one - but how the heck does this topic get 1800 views?
I read the answers - and then say to myself - so what?
What exactly does this velocity thing mean?
Obviously - I just dont get it.
Is it baseball - or is it a speed test?
I read the answers - and then say to myself - so what?
What exactly does this velocity thing mean?
Obviously - I just dont get it.
Is it baseball - or is it a speed test?
Rob,
In our day it was Randy Jones or Tommy John. Today it's Jamie Moyer and maybe now Tom Glavine.
Meaning, it seems there will always be a place in the game for a guy who is the polar opposite of the fireballer -- esp. when it comes to lefties.
In our day it was Randy Jones or Tommy John. Today it's Jamie Moyer and maybe now Tom Glavine.
Meaning, it seems there will always be a place in the game for a guy who is the polar opposite of the fireballer -- esp. when it comes to lefties.
The guys that I fear the most in hs facing are: The power arms that can pump strikes - IF - I have a weak hitting team. The soft thrower who can spot his stuff and throw any pitch at any time for a strike - IF - I have a strong hitting team. And the guy I fear the most is - The hard throwing guy that can spot his stuff and throw his off speed stuff for strikes anytime in the count - Regradless of how good my team is.
Question.. would you rather have a hard-thrower with tailing action or a hard-thrower with sinking action?
Do some of you really think that velocity means absolutely nothing? A kid in E TX some years back got 1. something million because he reportedly hit 100 mph. He was not a pitcher and washed out of Minor League Ball. He was paid only on velocity.
So you say --- you proved my point. I see really good numbers in high school and college (ERA, etc.) that don't even get a sniff because they don't have enough velocity.
I think the truth is in the middle. I would like a kid that modes at 87 or better with good control, good off-speed and knows how to pitch. (I just described a major league pitcher.)
I think it is also funny how so many discount a straight fastball. Balls that move are not as easy to locate. I like a straight four-seam that can be located (the faster the better).
So you say --- you proved my point. I see really good numbers in high school and college (ERA, etc.) that don't even get a sniff because they don't have enough velocity.
I think the truth is in the middle. I would like a kid that modes at 87 or better with good control, good off-speed and knows how to pitch. (I just described a major league pitcher.)
I think it is also funny how so many discount a straight fastball. Balls that move are not as easy to locate. I like a straight four-seam that can be located (the faster the better).
quote:Balls that move are not as easy to locate.
Not as easy to hit either!!
A pitcher that throws a lot of 4 seam ropes better be good at backing up third.
I agree with rob..... SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS...thats gas!
Gunned them a couple weeks ago with a JUGS during a game. Seniors:
#1 85-86, one at 87. Grades may be keeping from D1 offer. Didn't look like max effort. Was told he was 87-90. Note: saw him three weeks later and other team's gun showed 86-89 with most at 87-88.
#2 Consistent 86, one at 87. Verballed to D1. Looked closer to max effort. Was told he was mid 80s.
#3 80-83, most at 80-81. Was told he was mid 80s. Looked like mechanics were robbing velocity.
#4 73, one at 74, got hammered.
Juniors trying to make team:
80-83, most at 81-82. Smooth and easy looking. Has hit 85 at near max effort. Note: saw him 3 weeks later and other team's gun showed him at 83-84 mostly 83. Didn't look as smooth.
78-79, one at 80.
77, have gunned him at 81+ in past when overthrowing.
Few others in mid 70s.
Couple high 70s to low 80s kids missing that day.
The competition that weekend:
Lefty, only got two readings, 94 and 89. Headed to major D1.
Lefty, sophmore, 86-87.
Others low 80s and below.
Two other teams in our league each have 2 pitchers who have signed major D1 already.
I was able to gun one of the kids who was missing the other day over the weekend. He threw one at 84 and the rest at 83 while I was gunning him. I also checked my gun against another JUGS and it typically read 2 mph slower although there were pitches where it read the same and once or twice, faster. The sophmore was blowing the ball by kids so I'm guessing he was throwing 85 on a typical JUGS.
#1 85-86, one at 87. Grades may be keeping from D1 offer. Didn't look like max effort. Was told he was 87-90. Note: saw him three weeks later and other team's gun showed 86-89 with most at 87-88.
#2 Consistent 86, one at 87. Verballed to D1. Looked closer to max effort. Was told he was mid 80s.
#3 80-83, most at 80-81. Was told he was mid 80s. Looked like mechanics were robbing velocity.
#4 73, one at 74, got hammered.
Juniors trying to make team:
80-83, most at 81-82. Smooth and easy looking. Has hit 85 at near max effort. Note: saw him 3 weeks later and other team's gun showed him at 83-84 mostly 83. Didn't look as smooth.
78-79, one at 80.
77, have gunned him at 81+ in past when overthrowing.
Few others in mid 70s.
Couple high 70s to low 80s kids missing that day.
The competition that weekend:
Lefty, only got two readings, 94 and 89. Headed to major D1.
Lefty, sophmore, 86-87.
Others low 80s and below.
Two other teams in our league each have 2 pitchers who have signed major D1 already.
I was able to gun one of the kids who was missing the other day over the weekend. He threw one at 84 and the rest at 83 while I was gunning him. I also checked my gun against another JUGS and it typically read 2 mph slower although there were pitches where it read the same and once or twice, faster. The sophmore was blowing the ball by kids so I'm guessing he was throwing 85 on a typical JUGS.
Sons team
1 85ish guy max effort.
1 low 80-83
3 75 - 78
1 low 70 junkster,
This is prob a typical pitcher linup.
To my knowledge there are 3-4 guys in the state throwing in the 90's. Could be more though.
1 85ish guy max effort.
1 low 80-83
3 75 - 78
1 low 70 junkster,
This is prob a typical pitcher linup.
To my knowledge there are 3-4 guys in the state throwing in the 90's. Could be more though.
Bum,
My son gets a fair amount of tail on the ball because of his low 3/4 arm slot. I prefer sink, but I'm certainly not going to try to change him. Once his velocity plateaus we'll focus on developing a 2 seamer and see if that gets more sink. For now, the tail he gets on the 4 seamer is enough at his level of play and he gets a lot of ground balls when he stays down in the zone so it is probably getting a bit of sink on it already.
My son gets a fair amount of tail on the ball because of his low 3/4 arm slot. I prefer sink, but I'm certainly not going to try to change him. Once his velocity plateaus we'll focus on developing a 2 seamer and see if that gets more sink. For now, the tail he gets on the 4 seamer is enough at his level of play and he gets a lot of ground balls when he stays down in the zone so it is probably getting a bit of sink on it already.
Coach May,
A hard-thrower who can establish his fastball early; then throw any pitch on any count for STRIKES; will win a team/pitcher a lot of games.
A hard-thrower who can establish his fastball early; then throw any pitch on any count for STRIKES; will win a team/pitcher a lot of games.
CADad,
Bum, Jr. is a 5'10" LHP. His fastball has lots of tail. Read somewhere --thinking it was posted by you, that
*Short pitchers with tail that pitch up in zone
get strikeouts, flyouts. Down in zone
tend to be line drives.
*Tall pitchers with sink that pitch down in zone
get groundouts, strikeouts. Up in zone tend
to be line drives.
I mentioned this to a D1 coach and he wanted to know where I got that info.. was intrigued. Has anyone else heard this?
Bum, Jr. is a 5'10" LHP. His fastball has lots of tail. Read somewhere --thinking it was posted by you, that
*Short pitchers with tail that pitch up in zone
get strikeouts, flyouts. Down in zone
tend to be line drives.
*Tall pitchers with sink that pitch down in zone
get groundouts, strikeouts. Up in zone tend
to be line drives.
I mentioned this to a D1 coach and he wanted to know where I got that info.. was intrigued. Has anyone else heard this?
I agree with Midlodad and baseballpapa, velocity is what gets peoples attention. I have seen really good pitchers who throw middle range velocity but don't really get a sniff and typically veocities are slower than what some people say becuase on most days a high school pitcher can't reach maximum performance that they had when they were up.
Avg. Top
LHP #1- 75-78 (82) SR location guy nice and easy thrower
RHP #2- 85-88 (91) Sr fluid and easy thrower
LHP #3- 70-79 (84) Jr very sporatic velocity
others
RHP -#4 75-78 So.
RHP -#5 77-81 Jr. 2b relief
RHP -#6 82-85 Jr. 3b relief
have a J.V kid a so. 82-85 still learning how to throw strikes on a consistant basis.
Avg. Top
LHP #1- 75-78 (82) SR location guy nice and easy thrower
RHP #2- 85-88 (91) Sr fluid and easy thrower
LHP #3- 70-79 (84) Jr very sporatic velocity
others
RHP -#4 75-78 So.
RHP -#5 77-81 Jr. 2b relief
RHP -#6 82-85 Jr. 3b relief
have a J.V kid a so. 82-85 still learning how to throw strikes on a consistant basis.
Bum,
I know I've said that "short" pitchers who pitch up in the zone tend to get K's and flyouts. Washburn is a good example. Even so, they tend to be vulnerable to the long ball at times. I don't know if I've ever said that they'll get line drives hit off them if they are down in the zone. It probably just isn't quite as effective down in the zone as the tall pitcher throwing over the top, but down in the zone is the place to be most of the time, against most hitters.
Tall pitchers throwing over the top who stay up in the zone tend to get hit pretty hard, but if they are consistently down in the zone and only rarely go up top, the pitch up top can work pretty well.
JMO.
I know I've said that "short" pitchers who pitch up in the zone tend to get K's and flyouts. Washburn is a good example. Even so, they tend to be vulnerable to the long ball at times. I don't know if I've ever said that they'll get line drives hit off them if they are down in the zone. It probably just isn't quite as effective down in the zone as the tall pitcher throwing over the top, but down in the zone is the place to be most of the time, against most hitters.
Tall pitchers throwing over the top who stay up in the zone tend to get hit pretty hard, but if they are consistently down in the zone and only rarely go up top, the pitch up top can work pretty well.
JMO.
One of our local high schools has been to the state championships for the last three years (won two of three). They still talk glowingly about there ONE pitcher two years ago that could throw 86-88. Bottom line: Even at high school baseball powerhouses, you just don't see kids throwing in the 90's too often (rare).
However, CADad, as you know arm slot can have a much larger effect than height from which the ball is released (e.g., on the "down angle").
And as a rule, at least from my observation, over the top pitchers tend to have little movement on their fastballs.
And as a rule, at least from my observation, over the top pitchers tend to have little movement on their fastballs.
quote:Originally posted by TripleDad:quote:Balls that move are not as easy to locate.
Not as easy to hit either!!
A pitcher that throws a lot of 4 seam ropes better be good at backing up third.
I'm with TD on this one. Straight and flat? Decent batters can adjust to nearly any speed and location.
A pitcher with consistent mechanics will get fairly consistent movement. So having movement doesn't really make it difficult to have command.
Texan,
Agree.
Agree.
Bum,
Going all the way back to your original post I noticed that the cruising speed max was only 1 mph below the top speed. I can understand how the harder throwing pitcher might be effective doing that but in general pitchers tend to be more effective staying 3 to 4 mph below their max. For example CASon was 85 max a few weeks ago and worked quite effectively at 81 to 82 with an in game max of 83. I haven't had a gun on him lately and they didn't have one on them at the college camp he was at over the weekend but it looked to me like he was throwing a bit closer to his max and a bit less effectively.
Were these the pitchers' true top speeds or just the max they happened to hit in a given game?
Going all the way back to your original post I noticed that the cruising speed max was only 1 mph below the top speed. I can understand how the harder throwing pitcher might be effective doing that but in general pitchers tend to be more effective staying 3 to 4 mph below their max. For example CASon was 85 max a few weeks ago and worked quite effectively at 81 to 82 with an in game max of 83. I haven't had a gun on him lately and they didn't have one on them at the college camp he was at over the weekend but it looked to me like he was throwing a bit closer to his max and a bit less effectively.
Were these the pitchers' true top speeds or just the max they happened to hit in a given game?
Great post. Here is my experience. Lets say a kids max velo is 85. He will tend to pitch in the 81-83 maybe 80-83 range. A few times during the game you will see him peak at his max. If a kids max is 85 he is not going to pitch at that range. If he does it wont be for long. Not very long at all.
Kids that pitch at their max usually do not have alot of success. They tend to struggle with control. They tend to get hit hard alot. Hitters time pitchers. Pitchers that routinely stay in the same velocity range on the fastball get hurt. Being able to pitch in one range and pump it up to another range in certain situations keeps hitters timing off.
I have always believed in three different ranges of velo on fb's. #1 the range you can comfortably pitch at and locate at your best. #2 the range you can pump it up at when you need a little extra #3 your take some off fb where your using it almost like a change up or bp fastball we call it.
But as far as gun readings what can he comfortably pitch at - ie cruising speed - and peak - max velo reading. Just my humble opinion folks.
Kids that pitch at their max usually do not have alot of success. They tend to struggle with control. They tend to get hit hard alot. Hitters time pitchers. Pitchers that routinely stay in the same velocity range on the fastball get hurt. Being able to pitch in one range and pump it up to another range in certain situations keeps hitters timing off.
I have always believed in three different ranges of velo on fb's. #1 the range you can comfortably pitch at and locate at your best. #2 the range you can pump it up at when you need a little extra #3 your take some off fb where your using it almost like a change up or bp fastball we call it.
But as far as gun readings what can he comfortably pitch at - ie cruising speed - and peak - max velo reading. Just my humble opinion folks.
Absolutely. Always save a little something back so you can crank it up a notch during that one or two times an outing when you really need it.
Also, pitchers who throw 100% effort with every pitch are more likely to get injured.
Also, pitchers who throw 100% effort with every pitch are more likely to get injured.
Would you say when college programs like righthanded pitchers throwing 90, that's their max but they are usually around 87?
My son had a learning experience this fall. He grew five inches since the spring and picked up velocity just by growing. He tried to bring the smoke (relative to age and size) one game and got smoked. I called him "Infinity" (his ERA that game/six hitters) for a couple of days to make a point. He went back to his normal fluid motion, slowed down yet still faster than the beginning of the season, got his good movement back and was successful. I told him as he grows and throws harder finding the right cruising speed is more important than maxing out.
My son had a learning experience this fall. He grew five inches since the spring and picked up velocity just by growing. He tried to bring the smoke (relative to age and size) one game and got smoked. I called him "Infinity" (his ERA that game/six hitters) for a couple of days to make a point. He went back to his normal fluid motion, slowed down yet still faster than the beginning of the season, got his good movement back and was successful. I told him as he grows and throws harder finding the right cruising speed is more important than maxing out.
That is absolutely correct. Guys that max at 93 94 and pitch at 90 get drafted. When a college coach sees a kid max at 90 he knows he is going to pitch in the 87 range or so has the ability to do so.
In front of college scouts/recruiters should a pitcher let a couple of four seamers rip regardless of movement just to show max speed?
Yes.
Just to add something.
We do see HS pitchers who top out at say 95, yet they throw pretty much every fastball 92-94. In other words they throw consistently 92-94. While these types are fairly rare... So is a first round draft pick!
There are others who might throw one 90 and are consistently in the 86-87 mph range. There are others who will top out at 90 and throw 20 pitches 89-90. The first guy we would box in at 86-87 top 90. The second guy 89-90 top 90. They are not the same when it comes to velocity.
More important is how long can they maintain velocity. We often see a pitcher throw 90 in the first inning and mid 80s the second, third, etc. Then once in awhile we see a pitcher who will throw 90 in the first inning and still throw 90 in the 7th inning. These are two different pitchers for the time being. However, if a kid can throw 90 legitimetely one time, he is capable of throwing 90. So that top out speed is very important, even if it can't be maintained for very long.
WE had a guy in Jupiter this year that in 4 innings pitched, never threw a 4 seam fastball under 94 mph. He topped out at 97. He threw lots of 96's. We reported him 94-97. He also threw a high 80s slider and low 80s curveball. Both breaking balls were very sharp. Often off speed velocity is never brought up in these discussions, but let's face it, a good 89 mph slider is better than a good 73 mph slider. Ask any hitter!
We do see HS pitchers who top out at say 95, yet they throw pretty much every fastball 92-94. In other words they throw consistently 92-94. While these types are fairly rare... So is a first round draft pick!
There are others who might throw one 90 and are consistently in the 86-87 mph range. There are others who will top out at 90 and throw 20 pitches 89-90. The first guy we would box in at 86-87 top 90. The second guy 89-90 top 90. They are not the same when it comes to velocity.
More important is how long can they maintain velocity. We often see a pitcher throw 90 in the first inning and mid 80s the second, third, etc. Then once in awhile we see a pitcher who will throw 90 in the first inning and still throw 90 in the 7th inning. These are two different pitchers for the time being. However, if a kid can throw 90 legitimetely one time, he is capable of throwing 90. So that top out speed is very important, even if it can't be maintained for very long.
WE had a guy in Jupiter this year that in 4 innings pitched, never threw a 4 seam fastball under 94 mph. He topped out at 97. He threw lots of 96's. We reported him 94-97. He also threw a high 80s slider and low 80s curveball. Both breaking balls were very sharp. Often off speed velocity is never brought up in these discussions, but let's face it, a good 89 mph slider is better than a good 73 mph slider. Ask any hitter!
quote:a good 89 mph slider is better
I wouldn't even take my bat to the plate.
PG,
I think the question for me would be does the first guy who is throwing 86-87 and hit 90 have the ability to throw 88-89 with less control if he wanted to and conversely does the guy who is throwing 88-89 and hit 90 have the ability to significantly improve his command and/or movement by dropping down to 86-87?
That's one of those things that requires some good scouting knowledge in addition to the radar gun to figure out.
A good 89 mph slider is worth a few $M. I'm guessing he's one of those that a SoCal school signed just in case, but doesn't really expect to get a chance at.
I'll agree with Texan on the yes to letting a few rip. I told my son this weekend at a college camp that when they had a gun on him to look for opportunities to let one rip as long as he could work it in without messing up his pitching. As far as I could tell they didn't have guns. They were probably a whole lot better at estimating velocity than I am though, given that they see so many kids pitch in mostly the same speed ranges at these camps. I thought 1 or 2 of the pitchers my son faced were throwing reasonably hard but he said they weren't and that he was way out in front.
I think the question for me would be does the first guy who is throwing 86-87 and hit 90 have the ability to throw 88-89 with less control if he wanted to and conversely does the guy who is throwing 88-89 and hit 90 have the ability to significantly improve his command and/or movement by dropping down to 86-87?
That's one of those things that requires some good scouting knowledge in addition to the radar gun to figure out.
A good 89 mph slider is worth a few $M. I'm guessing he's one of those that a SoCal school signed just in case, but doesn't really expect to get a chance at.
I'll agree with Texan on the yes to letting a few rip. I told my son this weekend at a college camp that when they had a gun on him to look for opportunities to let one rip as long as he could work it in without messing up his pitching. As far as I could tell they didn't have guns. They were probably a whole lot better at estimating velocity than I am though, given that they see so many kids pitch in mostly the same speed ranges at these camps. I thought 1 or 2 of the pitchers my son faced were throwing reasonably hard but he said they weren't and that he was way out in front.
CADad,
That's a good question and for the most part it is fairly easy to see if you've seen thousands of them. Normally they will show you!
Just for example, the Jupiter Tournament we held last month had 286 pitchers that topped out at 87 or higher. In that group you would have every conceivable combination of velocity (between 87 and 97 mph), command, control, breaking balls, life, etc.
We have seen 87 and wild and no other quality pitch and we have seen 97 with great command of four pitches. There is no rule that says the guys who throw hard automatically lack control. In fact, some of the best high school pitchers we’ve ever seen as far as control are pitchers who threw 90+.
Now if someone is over throwing, he will lack command. However, some are over throwing and working harder to touch mid 80s while some others are throwing 90+ with very little effort. I’ve learned a long time ago, there is no cut and dried method for figuring this stuff out. When you see the real talented ones, you just set back and admire it.
You nailed it on the 97 mph guy. BTW, he had more life on his 97 mph fastball than most crafty mid 80s lefties. And his slider was sharper than most any high 70s or low 80s slider. He also threw a quality curveball and a great disappearing changeup. His command was outstanding. Granted this is the exception to the rule by a long ways and he is a definite first round talent. It sure was fun to watch him as we were one of maybe 3 or 4 hundred scouts who focused in on him. (I think people can watch him on baseballwebtv BTW, there were 490 pitchers there who were mid 80s (84) or better. To me he was not only the best arm, but also the best pitcher there.
I know that everyone has seen the guys who throw real hard and that’s all they can do. There are a lot of those types. But there are guys who throw in the low to mid 90s who have a lot more t5han that. Tim Alderson from Arizona was a mid 90s pitcher in high school last year. He walked something like 15 hitters in over 200 innings the last two years while striking out something like 300. His best pitch? The slider! As good as he is, we have seen even better!
They don’t grow on trees, but anyone who has been around the highest level of high school talent has seen examples of what I’m talking about. We are very lucky in the fact that we get to see most all of them at some point. You can be watching your 5th game of the day and be dead tired and about to doze off… Then one of these guys takes the mound and it’s like waking up to a brand new day.
That's a good question and for the most part it is fairly easy to see if you've seen thousands of them. Normally they will show you!
Just for example, the Jupiter Tournament we held last month had 286 pitchers that topped out at 87 or higher. In that group you would have every conceivable combination of velocity (between 87 and 97 mph), command, control, breaking balls, life, etc.
We have seen 87 and wild and no other quality pitch and we have seen 97 with great command of four pitches. There is no rule that says the guys who throw hard automatically lack control. In fact, some of the best high school pitchers we’ve ever seen as far as control are pitchers who threw 90+.
Now if someone is over throwing, he will lack command. However, some are over throwing and working harder to touch mid 80s while some others are throwing 90+ with very little effort. I’ve learned a long time ago, there is no cut and dried method for figuring this stuff out. When you see the real talented ones, you just set back and admire it.
You nailed it on the 97 mph guy. BTW, he had more life on his 97 mph fastball than most crafty mid 80s lefties. And his slider was sharper than most any high 70s or low 80s slider. He also threw a quality curveball and a great disappearing changeup. His command was outstanding. Granted this is the exception to the rule by a long ways and he is a definite first round talent. It sure was fun to watch him as we were one of maybe 3 or 4 hundred scouts who focused in on him. (I think people can watch him on baseballwebtv BTW, there were 490 pitchers there who were mid 80s (84) or better. To me he was not only the best arm, but also the best pitcher there.
I know that everyone has seen the guys who throw real hard and that’s all they can do. There are a lot of those types. But there are guys who throw in the low to mid 90s who have a lot more t5han that. Tim Alderson from Arizona was a mid 90s pitcher in high school last year. He walked something like 15 hitters in over 200 innings the last two years while striking out something like 300. His best pitch? The slider! As good as he is, we have seen even better!
They don’t grow on trees, but anyone who has been around the highest level of high school talent has seen examples of what I’m talking about. We are very lucky in the fact that we get to see most all of them at some point. You can be watching your 5th game of the day and be dead tired and about to doze off… Then one of these guys takes the mound and it’s like waking up to a brand new day.
PG - do you have a video of higher quality on that kid?
The most impressive video I think I have ever seen in my life was the Scott Kazmir one. I did not get the same goose bumps watching this young man but that video was poor quality imho.
The most impressive video I think I have ever seen in my life was the Scott Kazmir one. I did not get the same goose bumps watching this young man but that video was poor quality imho.
I'd love to see a kid like that in HS. With my son playing JV I didn't get to see our league's 90+ kids this past season. The best HS matchup I've seen was Stoffel vs. Hunter a few years back. They were throwing 87-90 and dominating all but a couple hitters in each batting order including some kids headed for D1. 1-0 on a completely unearned run. Both of them throw a bit harder nowadays.
We have run into one high 80s to low 90s kid during fall ball and you could certainly tell the difference from our mid 80s guys.
CD,
I think the guys with the long easy arm motions just don't look like they're throwing as fast as the ones with faster tempos who do a bit more scap loading, even when they are throwing the same speed.
We have run into one high 80s to low 90s kid during fall ball and you could certainly tell the difference from our mid 80s guys.
CD,
I think the guys with the long easy arm motions just don't look like they're throwing as fast as the ones with faster tempos who do a bit more scap loading, even when they are throwing the same speed.
CD,
The Kazmir film was from Tropicana Field and that made the filming much easier. This was at the Marlins/Cardinals Spring Training site and much harder to film from the best angles. I actually watched that video from work today and it looked much better. Then after you mentioned it, I watched it at home on my laptop and it was much worse. I couldn't even get it to run smoothly.
Anyway, we do have more video of Gerritt Cole. I'll talk to the production people and see if we can get it up. He was at the PG National in Cincinnati earlier in the year and also pitched in the Aflac Game. He is real good and has a magical right arm. We've seen him 5 times this year and he's been mid 90s each time. 4 of the 5 times he showed the ability to throw that nasty stuff to any spot he wanted. BTW, that final pitch was a changeup that appeared to disappear. The hitter didn't have a chance on that pitch, no hitter would have.
CADad,
Jason Stoffel is also real good. Didn't throw with Cole's velocity but the same kind of movement and a real good hammer. Which Hunter are you referring to?
The Kazmir film was from Tropicana Field and that made the filming much easier. This was at the Marlins/Cardinals Spring Training site and much harder to film from the best angles. I actually watched that video from work today and it looked much better. Then after you mentioned it, I watched it at home on my laptop and it was much worse. I couldn't even get it to run smoothly.
Anyway, we do have more video of Gerritt Cole. I'll talk to the production people and see if we can get it up. He was at the PG National in Cincinnati earlier in the year and also pitched in the Aflac Game. He is real good and has a magical right arm. We've seen him 5 times this year and he's been mid 90s each time. 4 of the 5 times he showed the ability to throw that nasty stuff to any spot he wanted. BTW, that final pitch was a changeup that appeared to disappear. The hitter didn't have a chance on that pitch, no hitter would have.
CADad,
Jason Stoffel is also real good. Didn't throw with Cole's velocity but the same kind of movement and a real good hammer. Which Hunter are you referring to?
My desktop PC does in fact provide better video quality than my wireless laptop so that was a good tip.
I am not qualified to shine that kid's shoes but here is what I see and it is not a criticism in any manner.
I see a very short throwing motion and I can't believe he gets it up there at 97 mph yet obviously I believe what has been reported. If someone told me he short-arms the ball I would believe them if I saw him after that description. Short-arming may be an entirely inaccurate description but that is the best description that I can provide in words of what I see.
PS - Perhaps he reminds me of Dennis Eckersly a little but he obviously throws much harder.
I am not qualified to shine that kid's shoes but here is what I see and it is not a criticism in any manner.
I see a very short throwing motion and I can't believe he gets it up there at 97 mph yet obviously I believe what has been reported. If someone told me he short-arms the ball I would believe them if I saw him after that description. Short-arming may be an entirely inaccurate description but that is the best description that I can provide in words of what I see.
PS - Perhaps he reminds me of Dennis Eckersly a little but he obviously throws much harder.