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quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Folks, you must be able to recognize the difference between "toughing it out" and putting up with abusive behavior.

Running 1 mile is toughing it out (this is not the track team we are talking about).

Running 5 miles during the offseason after building up from 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 miles is toughing it out.

Getting yelled at is toughing it out.

Running 5 miles once after poor attitudes is toughing it out.

Running 5 miles (for a baseball team) during the season repeatedly and until one of them quits is insane.

The coach is nuts. The coach is not going to be building a winning program at your school.

I am stunned and shocked that any coach here would condone this behavior.

Agree! I've known a coach that used these types of tactics. Having a kid "survive" those doesn't mean you're producing an athlete that is going to produce. To me, all it means is a coach that doesn't know how to motivate and teach using methods that require something outside of abuse.
The only two things I would be concerned with is

safety - 5 mile run (down here where it is already 82!) requires hydration after wards.

skills - if they are running that much, how can they be working on skills?

Other than that, kids need to know that college practice will be lots tougher than high school, and the minors (at least according to the recent posts in the Going Pro thread) ain't no piece of cake.
quote:
Originally posted by 55mom:
kids need to know that college practice will be lots tougher than high school, and the minors (at least according to the recent posts in the Going Pro thread) ain't no piece of cake.


But this isn't college practice and it isn't pro practice. That is what I have a problem with. Looking ahead to the next level is only a part of the equation for maybe 10% of a high school team. Is teaching one or two players about the next level more important than retaining the other 90% of the team?
The reason coaches run players 5 miles after a game as punishment is because these coaches are usually chuckleheads who have no clue how to get their players to step up their game.

These are the types of coaches who need to look in the mirror to maybe find the root of the problem. We all know who they are because we've all seen these kinds of coaches at one time or another.

I'm all for hard work, conditioning and disipline but to aimlessly make kids run as if they're trying out for the cross country team is nutso in my book.
Last edited by zombywoof
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
The reason coaches run players 5 miles after a game as punishment is because these coaches are usually chuckleheads who have no clue how to get their players to step up their game.


I agree with you totally. At least if it's done on a consistent basis. We're talking about HS here! A coach should be able to pull more out from his coaching methods than this.

I'm just reminded once again how fortunate we were when son was young.
Well my first reaction was "don't play college ball" because it is not "touchy feely," even if they don't run 5 miles. But long practices to teach a lesson are not unusual.

I think your coach is establishing his authority with a new team, and focusing on the so-called stars. I don't agree with his methods, but I think it is going too far to call it "abusive." I remember our son's new HS coach would regularly take star players out of the game, or suspend them just to show who was in charge. (To be fair, I also remember not liking it)

I agree with several posters who suggested your son better shut up and tough it out, and that includes the parent. "There's no crying in baseball."

And why on earth would it hurt his recruiting if he is already on a great summer team and he is a top player? My suggestion is that you go about your business with showcases and travel teams without letting everyone know your plans.
While I wouldn't call running 5 miles as punishment, abusive, this is no way gonna work on a bunch of HS ballplayers to establish authority. These kids aren't stupid. That's why a chucklehead coach like this loses his players respect. Once you get to that point, the team is toast. HS coaching is key at the varsity level to winning in HS because how many times have you seeen a clueless HS coach get his hands on a team who did great all summer and he can't get the same team to play .500 ball in the HS season.

I've seen things like coaches NOT putting their players in the best position to succeed. From that you get sloppy play, the coaches start ranting and raving, the losses pile up and the players tune out the head coach because he's got them doing dopey punishment cross-country runs and berating them on the field.

If the coach has players with attitude problems, then the coach has issues himself for allowing that to fester in the first place. This is where a coach has to get tough and make tough decisions if the player's attitude don't improve. A good coach will know how to deal with rotten apples.

A coach worth his salt can take avarage talent, instill good habits and knows how to put players in the best possible place so that they're successful and at least play hard, smart and competitive basball which translates into wins. while a chucklehead coach can take a talented team and drag it down a few notches with their genius coaching methods.

I'm not saying it's all the coach's fault and ultimately, it's up to the players to play the game the right and have good attitudes and all, but a HS varsity HC has a lot of authority over these players and can mold them into the type of players they want to make them.

As for the players suggesting to shut up and tough it out, I agree with that. It's all the player can do. The other option is up and quit the team. For these players, the summer season can't come fast enough.
Last edited by zombywoof
I think we all agree that if a coach is in fact acting this way he is not a good coach. But the problem is your kid can not change that. He has to play with the cards he is dealt. So there are two issues here. #1 How should the player handle a situation like this?
#2 How should a parent handle this situation?

Now personally if I came home and complained to my dad about a coach working me too hard he would have told me to shut up. He would have told me to quit and join him everyday working his butt off and see how I liked that. In fact the ONE time I did complain I quickly learned not to do it again.

I came home from a practice and cramped up. He asked me what was wrong. I told him coach ran us a bunch. I then proceeded to complain about how much of a hard as* he was. Dad looked at me and said "Boy when I was your age I was on the side of a mountain in Korea freezing my as* off. Half the boys I went over there with were either dead or wounded. We didn't get to play games. So if its too tough for you just turn in your stuff and go to work. If not shut the **** up."

Yes times have certainly changed. lol
Coach I used to get the same speeches (my dad was in Vietnam but pretty much the same speech) but if my son was telling me that these kinds of things are going on I would check it out myself.

It it turns out that this is a problem I would pull my kid, right then and there. This coach is putting kids at risk and if he is putting my kid at risk there is nothing worth that risk.

I want my kid to come to me and tell me that something is a problem. If it is just simple whining about having to run laps or getting chewed out for not hustling I am with you. But if the coach is putting his kids at risk or is behaving in a way that is completely inappropriate then that is a completely different thing.

I would have no problem pulling my kid off that team or allowing him to quit if the coach is abusive or dangerous. There is no lesson to be learned from getting hurt or from being insulted constantly. This is baseball, not basic training and these are high school kids, not soldiers.
quote:
Now personally if I came home and complained to my dad about a coach working me too hard he would have told me to shut up. He would have told me to quit and join him everyday working his butt off and see how I liked that.
Whenever I complained about anything I would get asked if I preferred charging a hill will bullets flying over my head. There's no response good enough. My father graduated from high school in 1942.

Just once I decided I had enough of my dad's nonsense and took a half hearted swing at him. I was seventeen. He was forty-eight. The next second was me laying face first into the floor and hearing, "Never (bleep) with a Marine trained in hand to hand combat unless you bring everything you've got." My dad and I never had another issue.
Last edited by RJM
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I guess some are saying there is no limit as to what a coach can get away with.

A baseball coach is a God, and kids must just suck it up.

BTW, back in the Korean War, one of the Dads would probably make the Coach run 5 miles til he puked, but we can't do that now.
While I'm not a fan of running for punishment I'll bet the real story is they ran and someone puked rather than until someone puked. Baseball players can get away with not being in shape until told to run. My son said two of the pitchers puked the first few times they ran two miles.
quote:
Originally posted by LHOUTFIELDER2011:
My son is a Junior in high school and has started for his team since he was a Freshman. Last year a new coach came in the picture, with a very different outlook on the game. Unfortunately, this year the coach is really starting to take a negative impact on the team. I haven't said much and probably won't say much to my son about the new coach (despite the numerous complaints).

Where I come in the picture is my son has a very promising future; however, I think it is starting to get compromised because of the coach. He plays for a nationally ranked select team during the summer/fall and wants to just stop playing high school ball.

Below are just a few things this coach does that I have a difference in opinion on.

- When the team looses a game, he tells them "I'm going to make you run until someone quits" (5 miles on an average) -- a few good players have quit.

- Instead of focusing team practices on what the team needs to improve in, he thinks that running until they throw-up is more appropriate.

- He thinks that demeaning the players is motivation.

- He absolutely "hates" for members of his team to play select ball or participate in showcases during the summer -- no one cares!

As a parent, what do you do?


I always find it interesting that someone comes to post their dilemma then never returns to further clarify. Is this because most of the time most don't agree or feel the empathy they want us to?

What I would want to know is how many times has the team had to run? Everytime after they lose, or has it been once, or is it less than 5 miles but seems like 5? IMO, 5 mile run is not abusive unless they have a specific amount of time to run it in, a healthy HS baseball player should be able to accomplish that in 45-60 minutes and yes I agree that it is progressive run (working up to 5 miles not just 5 miles in one shot). My husband runs a 4 in about 50 minutes, he's 61 has bad knees and recently had a stent placed in a blocked artery. That's about twice a week. Whoever says that running is not good for you has that wrong, most of the time that is the last activity that players come prepared for when they first show up, whether in HS, college, or later on. Makes no difference whether they will go on to play after HS or not, statistics show that most young people don't do enough excercise, just for health reasons.

My first post did not necessarily mean that my player had to run 5 miles frequently, it was supposed to mean that as you go up a notch the conditioning and other things becomes very tough, and if coach is unhappy, long practices aren't necessarily used to make the team think about how they need to improve, but I agree that improvement as a team comes from practice, improvement as an individual comes from many, many hours of conditioning. Sometimes coaches just do things to prove a point, but then a good explanation should be given as to WHY they choose that activity. FWIW, my son's coach used running as a reinforcement for those that didn't do what they were supposed to do (follow team rules) because that is the least liked activity for most. He always said he did his best thinking while on a run, and that was his reason why they had to do it.
As far as demeaning players, tough love is often seen by young adults as demeaning to them, then they go back to the parents, and give the story based on their perception. That's why in most cases, it's important to listen and keep your mouth shut with opinions. There are two sides to every story.
If the Op's son wants to quite because he doesn't like this coach, I agree with Coach May, you are going to find many different types of coaches with many different types of philosophies, and if you just pick and choose who you want to work with, that is not being realistic.

I do hope that the OP returns to give us more information.
quote:
Originally posted by Blprkfrnks:
quote:
Originally posted by 55mom:
kids need to know that college practice will be lots tougher than high school, and the minors (at least according to the recent posts in the Going Pro thread) ain't no piece of cake.


But this isn't college practice and it isn't pro practice. That is what I have a problem with. Looking ahead to the next level is only a part of the equation for maybe 10% of a high school team. Is teaching one or two players about the next level more important than retaining the other 90% of the team?


If the coach is putting the kids in danger, it needs to be stopped. I can't make that call in this case, though 5 miles for baseball seems too much imo. I know on our team, every freshman thinks that he will play ball in college. Why make practice easy? Again, nothing dangerous - but strenuous is OK.
One of the most difficult things I have ever experienced is watching my child being punished by another adult. I have had to turn my back at times. Sometime the child has a healthier perspective than the parent in situations like these. Running five miles, while it may be administered as punishment, is actually beneficial to the development of an athlete. If the athlete has a problem running five miles I suggest THEY take the necessary steps to correct that problem. Proper training is the first thing that comes to my mind. If they have a problem with discipline or one in authority then they need to correct that too.
My son, who has hung up his cleats is embarking on a new path of marriage and employment. As he and I talked about dealing with "higher ups" in employment, one of the things he mentioned he learned from baseball was his ability to take an "butt chewing" and punishment from a coach and still maintain a positive attitude and remain focused on the goal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Humans are tough if they need to be:

I recently read a story about Hugh Glass a frontiersman in the 1820's that suffered an attack by a bear. Left for dead by Jim Bridger and John Fitzgerald, (they took all his supplies and gun) he regained consciousness, set his own leg, and CRAWLED 200 miles. It took him six weeks ----
Fungo
Can we please stop with the "he's putting them in danger bit"? Each one of these kids had to get a physical in order to try out for the team. Granted high school physicals aren't the greatest ever but running isn't going to put your life in jeopardy unless there is some sort of existing heart condition.

I'm not defending this guy but it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Maybe he's got a valid reason as to why he's doing this or maybe he's an idiot that is wearing down his team - I have no idea. Overall kids today have to thin of skin but it doesn't excuse verbal abuse. But here's the tricky part - what one kid sees as abuse is motivation for another kid. So what exactly has this coach said to each kid - I have no idea.

Overall my impression of this guy is he's wrong and he's messing up but it's not the end of the world.

My football coach in high school would be vilified by most of you guys on here. I didn't like him then nor do I like him now but I had the absolute most respect for him then and still now. I'm 36 years old and been coaching for about 16 years but if this guy came to my practice and told me to run through a wall I'm getting a helmet and doing it.

He would insult us, call us names, questioned whether we wanted to be men or not, called us the other name for a cat many times and dogcuss us. And when I say dogcuss I mean acutal cuss words like the F bomb and others.

When we would play bad Monday usually included things like 100 yard bear crawls, 100 yard ladders and some of the fiercest hittig drills.

Overall his message was - if you don't like feeling like this then make sure you perform on Friday night. Now we were pretty good while I was in high school and was state runner up my senior year and final fou my sophomore year. Would we have been as successful if he was "nicer"? I have no idea but I do know playing for him made me tougher. It made me more disciplined. That is why I respected him back then because I knew how it was going in and that's why I respect him now. He made me a better / stronger person because of it. I don't deny that there are other ways of doing this but this is what I went through and it made me better. I could always tell my parents weren't happy with the way I was treated but they always said if I wanted to play football then that's what I had to do.

This guy is probably wrong in what / how he's doing but it's not the end of the world.
My son's first baseball coach when he was 9-10 y.o. could be absolutely terrible (mentally/emotionally) with his players, although in his favor I must say that the pressures of playing youth league baseball in latin america cannot be compared to youth league baseball in the US. We always told our son that if he could put up with "Coach ***x" he would be able to put up with anybody.

After putting up with this for 3 years the team parents had a revolt and confronted the coach in a meeting at the end of the 3rd year. My son was 12 by then.

Many parents said many things. My question to him was about his approach to dealing with the kids. I did not ever question him on his on the field decisions. He said very simply that he was preparing them for the next level, where they would not be getting any sympathy at all and that was his way of doing it because he cared for all of them and wanted to see them succeed.

As it turned out he was very right. It has also turned out that our son has never played for any coach any more demanding, so in a sense we were correct in telling him that after that he could deal with anybody. Maybe it also helped that our son is very tough mentally, or maybe he acquired some of that toughness playing for that coach. I don't know.

To this day "Coach ***x" is one of our son's biggest supporters and always asks how he is doing and how he is playing and by the same token our son is always happy to see him.

I agree that physical safety must always be considered, however we never had that problem.
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
Can we please stop with the "he's putting them in danger bit"?

[snip]

This guy is probably wrong in what / how he's doing but it's not the end of the world.

And from the original post
quote:
When the team looses a game, he tells them "I'm going to make you run until someone quits"


Do you remember Max Gilpin? "Until somebody quits" was the end of life for Max Gilpin. Trial testimony Sure, the usual outcome (especially early in the season) is that the least motivated player quits the team. But sometimes a player who is very motivated is unable to run far. And that motivated player will try very hard to not be the first to quit running. The outcome can be tragic. Or less tragic but still bad--for example stress fractures.

The issue here is not whether the players have to run "too far", or any simple measure of too much. The issue is the approach of telling players that they can't stop running for any reason or the player loses his spot on the team. It invites the motivated player to continue when it is no longer safe to do so.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
3finger - the coach was found not guilty of any wrong doing by a jury.

http://www.courier-journal.com...n-PRP-player-s-death

Plus it's believed that what caused Max Gilpin's death was a combonation of ADHD medicine, creatine use and his already being sick. Plus during the trial several of his friends said under oath that they didn't think the practice was too severe.

http://www.courier-journal.com...%9Caccident%E2%80%9D

In the trial one of the prosecutions witnesses said that heat stroke was 100% preventable and should have dumped him in an ice bath. But the defense called two witnesses that went completely opposite of what the other guy testified too. They said that heat stroke is not prevetable and that tepid water should be run over the body with ice bags and fanning. Immersion in ice water would cause other problems.

The prosecution witness was director of athletic training at UCONN.

The defense witnesses were former KY state medical examiner and chairman of the University of Louisville department of emergency medicine.

Really all three are very credible witnesses and if one of them told me something I would take it as gospel but they are on opposite sides of the extreme in what happened. The jury listened to the defense.

Sometimes the moon and stars align for something great to happen but sadly they sometimes align for bad things to happen.

I forgot about the opening post and the coach saying he was going to run until someone quit. There is no excuse for that and goes against what coaching is about.
That's really a disappointing response. The jury's verdict is truly irrelevant. Whether the subsequent treatment was appropriate or not is irrelevant. Even the exact cause of that particular player's inability to withstand the gassers doesn't really matter. Nor does it matter that other players were able to do the gassers without harm.

What matters is that Max Gilpin couldn't do them that day without collapsing.

What matters is his expectation of being dismissed from the team if he didn't keep doing the gassers. Without that fear and expectation, he would have stopped sooner.

"Until somebody quits" isn't isn't just "against what coaching is about".

It's dangerous.
In our judicial system, morons are allowed to sit on juries so it's not that hard to get educated witnesses to twist the truth and fool morons sitting in a juror seat. 94 degrees and a lunkhead football coach running gassers until somebody quits while players are puking. This coach was wrong and lucky to have idiots on a jury.
Last edited by zombywoof

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