Vector, I think CADad did an analysis on this some time ago (I think he's an engineer) and determined the angle difference to be less than 1%. Perhaps he can chime in.
As for stride, given home plate is 726 inches from the mound a 4" height advantage would be less than 1%.
quote:I think you may be confusing correlation with causation.
You could be right. Some people in the effective velocity camp believe that the shorter pitcher can be more effective because all of his piches come out of his hand looking the same. Learning to use that could provide an advantage.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
Vector, I think CADad did an analysis on this some time ago (I think he's an engineer) and determined the angle difference to be less than 1%. Perhaps he can chime in.
As for stride, I would guess smaller pitchers stride further, on average, but that's just an observation and I could be wrong. If the stride length is the same, a pitcher throwing from 60' 6" that is 4" taller than the other guy would have an advantage 4/ ((60*12)+6)= .0056 or less than 1/2 of one percent. A non-issue.
Lets assume for the the sake of argument that those figures are accurate. It still winds up being a matter of perception for many scouts. Some of the verses in "pitching bibles" have been proved to be inaccurate or not having as much significance as once thought. Yet you still have many respected coaches teaching or believing in what they learned or were taught many a year ago.
As to the stride and release point issue, I suspect taller pitchers with proper mechanics still stride further and have a release point closer to the plate as a general rule. Then again I could be mistaken.
Correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't a pitchers stride be relative to his height?
I thought that one unique thing about Lincecum is that he strides more that his height?
I thought that one unique thing about Lincecum is that he strides more that his height?
TPM, you are correct. What I was saying is the taller pitcher's advantage, from a distance perspective is less than 1%.
I will sum up what has been outlined in this thread:
*1 MPH advantage to the taller pitcher
*<1% advantage in attack-plane angle
*<1% advantage in stride
*Injury rate the same as the smaller pitcher
Like I said, the differences are not statistically significant. Add to this evidence the fact that there is a lot of "rounding up" heights at the MLB level, and I think there is a lot of hope for the smaller pitcher.
It all boils down to talent and belief in oneself.
I will sum up what has been outlined in this thread:
*1 MPH advantage to the taller pitcher
*<1% advantage in attack-plane angle
*<1% advantage in stride
*Injury rate the same as the smaller pitcher
Like I said, the differences are not statistically significant. Add to this evidence the fact that there is a lot of "rounding up" heights at the MLB level, and I think there is a lot of hope for the smaller pitcher.
It all boils down to talent and belief in oneself.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
TPM, you are correct. What I was saying is the taller pitcher's advantage, from a distance perspective is less than 1%.
I will sum up what has been outlined in this thread:
*1 MPH advantage to the taller pitcher
*<1% advantage in attack-plane angle
*<1% advantage in stride
*Injury rate the same as the smaller pitcher
Like I said, the differences are not statistically significant. Add to this evidence the fact that there is a lot of "rounding up" heights at the MLB level, and I think there is a lot of hope for the smaller pitcher.
It all boils down to talent and belief in oneself.
I know we are starting to go off the original subject somewhat, but I find this part of the discussion interesting.
Much of my more modern knowledge of pitching comes from people who have forgotten more than I will ever know. So I looked up some reference material relating to this subject to see how far off my memory might have strayed.
As it turns out a motion-analysis was done by NPA between taller and shorter release points. While I did not remember all the data, the overall findings determined that a shorter release point 63.1"(to ground) resulted in 2.38 degrees of trajectory angle relative to the middle of the strike zone. Where as a taller release point of 73.5" had a trajectory angle of 3.29 degrees. Obviously shorter or taller release points will have a greater differential. How much more this induces ground balls is debatable, but it still is a factor.
Interestingly enough another factor in a closer release point with respect to proximity to the plate is the perceived mph increase that is gained. By cutting down on recognition time from ball release at a closer release point, a 2 mph increase can be achieved in perceived mph. As the previous poster notes, a pitcher like Lincecum who is small by MLB standards has a very long stride, thereby adding deception and perceived velo on every pitch compared with those who have a shorter stride. Another example is Oswalt who is also less that 6' , yet releases almost on flat ground. The energy angle they create is incredible considering they are up to a foot closer to the plate at release point than the average pitcher of their height. So it stands to reason that if a taller pitcher were to have a long stride, their release point will not only be closer, but also be coming from a higher trajectory given a typical 3/4 arm slot. Of course this would not apply to a pitcher like Chad Bradford.
The NPA has long been an advocate of releasing the ball closer to the plate. A recent study seemed to show that there was an advantage in terms of effectiveness due to that. I'd have a bit more respect for the NPA relative to that subject if they didn't also tell us that Billy Wagner had a higher release point than Randy Johnson. Facts show that Wagner had one of the lowest release points in the game and Johnson had a normal to high release point. It wasn't even close.
There is a lot more than height that goes into how close to the plate the ball is released. Lincecum throws straight over the top and has great forward tilt. Because of the forward tilt if he also released the ball out front he'd throw the ball into the ground. So despite the long stride he doesn't release the ball all that much closer to the plate than normal.
Jered Weaver strides incredibly closed so despite his height he isn't striding that close to the plate. On the other hand because he strides so closed he has to release out front more to throw strikes and he releases closer to the plate. Personally, I think that his effectiveness is more a result of releasing every one of his different pitches within a very tight pattern so that there's little or no way for a hitter to know what pitch he's throwing.
The reality is that from the side one can see arm speed change a lot on a change yet the hitter can't pick it up. JMO, but hitters tend to pick up on different pitches based on release point more than anything else.
I think that the trend of .25 mph is more meaningful than the number itself given that it is taken from a group that has inherently been preselected for having velocity. I also agree with the 3finger about the number of tall pitchers relative to the general population.
However, in the long run it comes down to velocity and within reason they'll take velocity today over projected velocity no matter the height.
JMO, again but as I've said in the past I believe that hard throwing shorter pitchers have an advantage when throwing pitches up in the zone as the ball is tending to sink less than it would from pitchers with a higher release point.
There is a lot more than height that goes into how close to the plate the ball is released. Lincecum throws straight over the top and has great forward tilt. Because of the forward tilt if he also released the ball out front he'd throw the ball into the ground. So despite the long stride he doesn't release the ball all that much closer to the plate than normal.
Jered Weaver strides incredibly closed so despite his height he isn't striding that close to the plate. On the other hand because he strides so closed he has to release out front more to throw strikes and he releases closer to the plate. Personally, I think that his effectiveness is more a result of releasing every one of his different pitches within a very tight pattern so that there's little or no way for a hitter to know what pitch he's throwing.
The reality is that from the side one can see arm speed change a lot on a change yet the hitter can't pick it up. JMO, but hitters tend to pick up on different pitches based on release point more than anything else.
I think that the trend of .25 mph is more meaningful than the number itself given that it is taken from a group that has inherently been preselected for having velocity. I also agree with the 3finger about the number of tall pitchers relative to the general population.
However, in the long run it comes down to velocity and within reason they'll take velocity today over projected velocity no matter the height.
JMO, again but as I've said in the past I believe that hard throwing shorter pitchers have an advantage when throwing pitches up in the zone as the ball is tending to sink less than it would from pitchers with a higher release point.
I don't think we are really in disagreement, just looking at things from different perspectives about differing issues.
I am surprised to hear about your Johnson vs. Wagner comment. Maybe it could be that they were talking about release points compared to other pitchers relative to the typical release point of pitchers of the same size (i.e. with a huge guy like Johnson who was not straight over the top vs. Wagner and a typical pitcher of their relative sizes)?
The NPA does such extensive research using motion analysis/computer generated tracking that maybe it came across as strange, yet had a variable to it that was missed or left out of the explanation.
I for one believe most pitchers are unique in how they deliver the ball regardless of their physical size. A regular size man in America is about 5'10" and that is short compared with the average size pitcher in the MLB. Yet some smaller guys are not only strike machines, but can generate incredible spin and velo. Some of that is due to proper training and mechanics, but much is probably God given talent.
The belief that pitchers, or any position player must be a certain height or weight can cost great players an opportunity to play if the scouts are rigid in their thinking. Lets face it, guys like David Eckstein who are small in physical stature have incredible heart and work ethic. He was a walk on in college, probably because of his physical size, but it was not long before he made a name for himself. The day they can measure heart and drive is the day more guys who fly under the radar will get their chances.
I am surprised to hear about your Johnson vs. Wagner comment. Maybe it could be that they were talking about release points compared to other pitchers relative to the typical release point of pitchers of the same size (i.e. with a huge guy like Johnson who was not straight over the top vs. Wagner and a typical pitcher of their relative sizes)?
The NPA does such extensive research using motion analysis/computer generated tracking that maybe it came across as strange, yet had a variable to it that was missed or left out of the explanation.
I for one believe most pitchers are unique in how they deliver the ball regardless of their physical size. A regular size man in America is about 5'10" and that is short compared with the average size pitcher in the MLB. Yet some smaller guys are not only strike machines, but can generate incredible spin and velo. Some of that is due to proper training and mechanics, but much is probably God given talent.
The belief that pitchers, or any position player must be a certain height or weight can cost great players an opportunity to play if the scouts are rigid in their thinking. Lets face it, guys like David Eckstein who are small in physical stature have incredible heart and work ethic. He was a walk on in college, probably because of his physical size, but it was not long before he made a name for himself. The day they can measure heart and drive is the day more guys who fly under the radar will get their chances.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
The NPA has long been an advocate of releasing the ball closer to the plate. A recent study seemed to show that there was an advantage in terms of effectiveness due to that. I'd have a bit more respect for the NPA relative to that subject if they didn't also tell us that Billy Wagner had a higher release point than Randy Johnson. Facts show that Wagner had one of the lowest release points in the game and Johnson had a normal to high release point. It wasn't even close.
I'd have a bit more respect for the NPA approach if it translated to success on the field. Pitching at USC has been, in a word, pedestrian. Frankly with all the "science" of pitching available to the USC staff I would have expected a string of "Golden Spike" winners.
The boy has worked with two pitching instructors. Early on it was with NPA which professed the illusion of velo (closer to the plate) and the science of pitching. The current coaches "THROW THE PI$$ OUT OF IT" philosphy has allowed him to compete and play in college.
Tall pitchers, short pitchers, over the top, 3/4, long stride, short stride it's all about maximizing your body type so that you can "THROW THE PI$$ OUT OF IT"
quote:Originally posted by dswann:
The boy has worked with two pitching instructors. Early on it was with NPA which professed the illusion of velo (closer to the plate) and the science of pitching. The current coaches "THROW THE PI$$ OUT OF IT" philosphy has allowed him to compete and play in college.
Risk and reward for sure!
.
While I love these discussions...the science...the mechanics...the statistics...the velocity...the co-efficents...
...we are offering rational, objective ways to support a decision that in the end is more subjectively based and humanly biased than it is good objective science.
If you have been through much recruiting and many drafts you begin with some selctions to shake you head and wonder what can they possibly be thinking. This is particularly true beyond round 15 in the draft.
Reagrdless of what WE think, regardless of how much logic and science we offer...in the end it comes down to what the people with the power to make that decision are thinking...and a great deal of it is not based on science, or statistics or objective thought. Hard part is they our sons baseball futures are in their subjective hands.
44
.
While I love these discussions...the science...the mechanics...the statistics...the velocity...the co-efficents...
...we are offering rational, objective ways to support a decision that in the end is more subjectively based and humanly biased than it is good objective science.
If you have been through much recruiting and many drafts you begin with some selctions to shake you head and wonder what can they possibly be thinking. This is particularly true beyond round 15 in the draft.
Reagrdless of what WE think, regardless of how much logic and science we offer...in the end it comes down to what the people with the power to make that decision are thinking...and a great deal of it is not based on science, or statistics or objective thought. Hard part is they our sons baseball futures are in their subjective hands.
44.
My data shows that for every inch there is a gain of 2/3 MPH and for each 10lbs there is a gain of 1 MPH. So a 6'4" vs a 6' would throw about 2.5 MPH faster. The correlation is not great though.
quote:My data shows that for every inch there is a gain of 2/3 MPH and for each 10lbs there is a gain of 1 MPH. So a 6'4" vs a 6' would throw about 2.5 MPH faster. The correlation is not great though.
BK,
If that were 100% true, Offensive linemen would be quarterbacks and pitchers. How hard would someone like Lincecum throw if he were 6'4"/240? Billy Wagner?
I do think there's an overall advantage in being bigger, but each individual is different. Some have actually gained velocity by losing weight.
quote:If that were 100% true, Offensive linemen would be quarterbacks and pitchers
No, it means the average 6'4" lineman would throw harder than the 6' lineman.
It's just data, there is no true or false.
I came up with similar numbers to BK35 when I tried to put together some info on youth pitchers that was given to me. The numbers do tend to apply overall but you can't assume they are going to work for any one individual.
Should Ervin Santana try to put on another 20 lbs.? My son gained velocity with height but never seemed to pick anything up as he gained weight so who knows? There are so many other factors that can impact velocity with an individual that you never know.
Should Ervin Santana try to put on another 20 lbs.? My son gained velocity with height but never seemed to pick anything up as he gained weight so who knows? There are so many other factors that can impact velocity with an individual that you never know.
Here is some more data. My database only has 60 or so pitchers that went on to pitch in college.
Of the 9 pitchers that were 5'9" or less only 2 were higher than 80mph. Of the 14 that were 6'4" or more only 1 was less than 80.
Of the 9 pitchers that were 5'9" or less only 2 were higher than 80mph. Of the 14 that were 6'4" or more only 1 was less than 80.
http://nolefan.org/baseball/lewis_richie.html
Forget what's listed as his height, trust me, he can't be more than 5'9" tops. I guess probably about 5'7" (Wikki has him at 5'6").
Awesome in college!
(I know he is a righty but just addressing the size issue.)
Forget what's listed as his height, trust me, he can't be more than 5'9" tops. I guess probably about 5'7" (Wikki has him at 5'6").
Awesome in college!
(I know he is a righty but just addressing the size issue.)
Have been documenting son as he grows and I don't really see any correlation with height and weight growth rates with velocity increase. It has been pretty steady at about a 5 mph gain per year up until now. He has had years he grows several inches and others where he has not grown much at all. Some years a big weight gain and others hardly any at all. Don't know if any trend will develop from here out but his velocity has just been steady all along. I know it will begin to slow down as no pitcher keeps gaining 5 mph per year, especially as they get older.
2013 Dad,
I know Richie very well. He actually worked for us for awhile. Had to laugh when I saw that 5'10" listing. He was an outstanding pitcher and threw hard, but I'm guessing 5'6" or so.
I know Richie very well. He actually worked for us for awhile. Had to laugh when I saw that 5'10" listing. He was an outstanding pitcher and threw hard, but I'm guessing 5'6" or so.
Yes PG. I went to high school in Tallahassee when he was FSU, He and lloynd were awesome. Richie coached 2013 son's summer team last year here in Melbourne area. A bulldog if I ever saw one.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I know it will begin to slow down as no pitcher keeps gaining 5 mph per year, especially as they get older.
GBM, you made me think about an old thread that talks about this. Enjoy. BTW, Bum Jr. ended up hitting his goal.
Average Velocity Increases
Bum, That was a good read. Thanks. I remember when son was 12 and we had tracked previous years when he was upper 50's at 10, low 60's at 11, and then mid to upper 60's at 12. We averaged it out that he could be throwing 80mph by the time he got into HS if he kept up that same velocity increase average. This spring he did indeed hit 80mph throwing very sparingly for the varsity team.
I am starting to really believe that conditioning has more effect than anything else- as long as the good mechanics are there to bein with. I don't worry so much any more with how big son will end up, I worry more about how he prepares himself, conditions himself, and pushes himself. It will come, but he has to work hard for it. Same for anybody- work hard, refine mechanics, and never lose hope. There is a team out there for anyone regardless of size, all one has to do is have a little God given talent and a desire to work hard.
I am starting to really believe that conditioning has more effect than anything else- as long as the good mechanics are there to bein with. I don't worry so much any more with how big son will end up, I worry more about how he prepares himself, conditions himself, and pushes himself. It will come, but he has to work hard for it. Same for anybody- work hard, refine mechanics, and never lose hope. There is a team out there for anyone regardless of size, all one has to do is have a little God given talent and a desire to work hard.