What does an Ivy, Patriot League or D3 coach do now to fill 2021 class?

I think some will wait until this December and hope for the best.  There will be some guys out there in December but can they get through admissions quick enough.  That is their big problem unless they have a way to speed up admissions. 

Not sure what you mean by "Ivy's and Patriot league don't allow red shirts". Red shirt just means you weren't charged a year of NCAA eligibility. I don't know about Patriot but Ivy doesn't allow graduate students to play sports. So if you missed a year (injury, COVID-19, etc.) you still have a year of eligibility. However, if you graduate, you must play your final year(s) elsewhere.

Of course none of that really has anything to do with 2021 recruiting. Quite a few Ivy schools have 2021 commits already and most have prospects they are following closely. I'm sure the same could be said of Patriot schools. I'm sure D3's are communicating with many recruits as well. Of course they may not get a chance to see them as much as they wanted to this summer. Keep your fingers crossed for a good fall season if the summer doesn't happen or starts very late.

So if you have a 2021 he had better be communicating with those coaches and sending video if he has it.

I went through my notes (son was 2019 recruited by Ivy's and Patriot, among others) and the summer going into senior year was big.  Most of the schools had a small handful of commits at that point and used the summer to get more looks, make offers and stock up.  I looked at Perfect Game and they show very few 2021 commits for Ivy or Patriot at this point.  Sure they have been tracking players but most haven't been seen since Fall of their junior years and typically they'd use the following summer to make final decisions.  I think they are in a bind as far as finding the best talent available.

This is the exact profile of our son, and this is precisely what he’s doing.  Lots of emails, lots of video.  Updates as progress is made.  Given circumstances, he would rather over communicate than under.  From the looks of it many coaches already stating that they’ll have limited or perhaps no on-campus camps.  And they are posting a limited schedule of HA (Showball or HF) camps they’ll be aiming to attend.  

While they may not have many commitments, they definitely have a list (fairly large) of targets going into the summer. They have to wait until then (esp. Ivy's) in order for junior grades to be posted. Early commits are generally those who fit or exceed the academic profile or are really good ballplayers whose academics can be offset by future academic recruits. I think that's changing a bit for some Ivy schools (Penn) as they seem to be committing players early.

The biggest challenge to these schools is most D1-type ballplayers are unwilling to wait that long and will commit elsewhere before the summer or will get snatched up in early summer. COVID-19 may actually help schools this year as long as they had previously worked hard and identified recruits last fall or over the winter. Meaning those recruits will not get picked up by other schools. For the rest of their roster they need to see the grades because they HAVE to be able to balance out their academic index (Ivy's).

I think if you started a dialog and send meaningful video you can hope to get on their "to see" list. Then you need to show up when you attend one of those limited events. But again, a good recruiting coordinator has definitely already identified many recruits. It's just that a number of them get crossed off because they either committed elsewhere or their academics didn't hold up.

Believe me, it's tough for a player to ignore or string along other schools because he's waiting to hear back or get a commitment from one of these schools. These other schools don't want to hear "no, I'm not ready" or "I need to think about it a while longer." My son went through this last year. So if you fit the description, have the grades and are willing to sacrifice for your dream school, you may get it. Or not. Then I would recommend having a sound plan B which includes HA D3 schools. But that could be a very tough pill to swallow, especially if you turned down a 4 year offer to a highly regarded academic mid major! It's a very tough path.

ABSORBER posted:

While they may not have many commitments, they definitely have a list (fairly large) of targets going into the summer. They have to wait until then (esp. Ivy's) in order for junior grades to be posted. Early commits are generally those who fit or exceed the academic profile or are really good ballplayers whose academics can be offset by future academic recruits. I think that's changing a bit for some Ivy schools (Penn) as they seem to be committing players early.

The biggest challenge to these schools is most D1-type ballplayers are unwilling to wait that long and will commit elsewhere before the summer or will get snatched up in early summer. COVID-19 may actually help schools this year as long as they had previously worked hard and identified recruits last fall or over the winter. Meaning those recruits will not get picked up by other schools. For the rest of their roster they need to see the grades because they HAVE to be able to balance out their academic index (Ivy's).

I think if you started a dialog and send meaningful video you can hope to get on their "to see" list. Then you need to show up when you attend one of those limited events. But again, a good recruiting coordinator has definitely already identified many recruits. It's just that a number of them get crossed off because they either committed elsewhere or their academics didn't hold up.

Believe me, it's tough for a player to ignore or string along other schools because he's waiting to hear back or get a commitment from one of these schools. These other schools don't want to hear "no, I'm not ready" or "I need to think about it a while longer." My son went through this last year. So if you fit the description, have the grades and are willing to sacrifice for your dream school, you may get it. Or not. Then I would recommend having a sound plan B which includes HA D3 schools. But that could be a very tough pill to swallow, especially if you turned down a 4 year offer to a highly regarded academic mid major! It's a very tough path.

This is all spot on.  Another crazy wrinkle to this is standardized tests.  Our guy took them in Oct & Dec and got to the place he needed for these schools. But that process has been delayed as well.  Spring ACT was delayed as will June SAT.  So does that give the kid with good test scores an advantage?   Or good grades before many schools went to p/f?  And what about Subject tests which are generally required for Ivy’s AI?  All TBD.  We know our son is in many radars given last years performance on HA circuit.  He has grades, test scores and was just waiting to show off the improved Velo, exit Velo.  Will have to see if he has chance to do so, but he knows if it happens he’s going to have to be very ready. 

ABSORBER posted:

While they may not have many commitments, they definitely have a list (fairly large) of targets going into the summer. They have to wait until then (esp. Ivy's) in order for junior grades to be posted. Early commits are generally those who fit or exceed the academic profile or are really good ballplayers whose academics can be offset by future academic recruits. I think that's changing a bit for some Ivy schools (Penn) as they seem to be committing players early.

 

^^This.  The Ivy and Patriot coaches have recruiting lists "up the wazoo" because they have to.  Lots and lots of contact with recruits, but very few ever see serious interest by Ivy or Patriot schools.   I see the D3 HA schools being somewhat behind in their recruiting efforts given their later recruiting calendar.   Remember, all of these schools recruit and attend national showcases everywhere and are in contact with many, many recruits.   So, if your son was seen by one of these schools last year (before Covid) it is worth reaching out to these coaches to see where they are in their process.    The Ivy and Patriot schools will have an advantage over the D3 HA schools in almost all cases due to the timing of all of this.  Keep in mind, some of the Ivy schools also allow for JUCO transfers.   

As I see it there is more of an economic problem if anything.  These schools are not inexpensive.   There is a fair amount of need based financial aid, but the middle class family that may have been interested/qualified may look elsewhere because of economic uncertainty.   Low income folks get a lot of financial aid and high income folks can afford it.   It is the middle class that gets squeezed, and some may consider other options.

The supply of roster spots at these schools is pretty small and I still see the demand as being pretty strong.  Although some of these schools are a great place to hedge becoming a professional athlete, most people attend  to go professional in something other than sports.   Demand will remain strong even through this crisis.  Coaches may get more involved in financially qualifying their recruits when it comes to offer time.

As always, JMO.

Wechson posted:

This is all spot on.  Another crazy wrinkle to this is standardized tests.  Our guy took them in Oct & Dec and got to the place he needed for these schools. But that process has been delayed as well.  Spring ACT was delayed as will June SAT.  So does that give the kid with good test scores an advantage?   Or good grades before many schools went to p/f?  And what about Subject tests which are generally required for Ivy’s AI?  All TBD.  We know our son is in many radars given last years performance on HA circuit.  He has grades, test scores and was just waiting to show off the improved Velo, exit Velo.  Will have to see if he has chance to do so, but he knows if it happens he’s going to have to be very ready. 

I definitely don't know how the delay of standardized testing will affect recruiting because I really have no clue how it will affect admissions. My son had the grades, not the test scores which in some ways was better for him. It shows coaches the player has a work ethic and so perhaps won't be a problem for them once he gets to class. Of course test scores are important because of the academic index. So having good test scores means you don't have to worry about the effects of testing delays. Good grades prior to p/f shows you did all you could while p/f doesn't show anything.

Test scores don't really give an advantage to one player over another; they just won't exclude you from consideration. They will always take the better player as long as his grades and test scores fit the bill. And what happens when a really good player has less than optimal grades and scores? They will offset him by taking a player with really good tests and scores, and if there are more than one of these that fit the bill, they will take the best player amongst those.

I'm pretty sure subject tests are really only required by Harvard, Princeton, and Yale. And even then they said there weren't really required but rather they wanted you to do them because they wanted you to show that you performed the same admissions practices as regular students.

I would think subjects tests will be the first to go due to COVID-19.

ABSORBER posted:

Wechson posted:

This is all spot on.  Another crazy wrinkle to this is standardized tests.  Our guy took them in Oct & Dec and got to the place he needed for these schools. But that process has been delayed as well.  Spring ACT was delayed as will June SAT.  So does that give the kid with good test scores an advantage?   Or good grades before many schools went to p/f?  And what about Subject tests which are generally required for Ivy’s AI?  All TBD.  We know our son is in many radars given last years performance on HA circuit.  He has grades, test scores and was just waiting to show off the improved Velo, exit Velo.  Will have to see if he has chance to do so, but he knows if it happens he’s going to have to be very ready. 

I definitely don't know how the delay of standardized testing will affect recruiting because I really have no clue how it will affect admissions. My son had the grades, not the test scores which in some ways was better for him. It shows coaches the player has a work ethic and so perhaps won't be a problem for them once he gets to class. Of course test scores are important because of the academic index. So having good test scores means you don't have to worry about the effects of testing delays. Good grades prior to p/f shows you did all you could while p/f doesn't show anything.

Test scores don't really give an advantage to one player over another; they just won't exclude you from consideration. They will always take the better player as long as his grades and test scores fit the bill. And what happens when a really good player has less than optimal grades and scores? They will offset him by taking a player with really good tests and scores, and if there are more than one of these that fit the bill, they will take the best player amongst those.

I'm pretty sure subject tests are really only required by Harvard, Princeton, and Yale. And even then they said there weren't really required but rather they wanted you to do them because they wanted you to show that you performed the same admissions practices as regular students.

I would think subjects tests will be the first to go due to COVID-19.

Agree with all of this and what @fenwaysouth had to say.  Never easy.  This year will be particularly wonky.  Hard to know if our son has advantages or disadvantages based on all of this.  We shall see, all he can do is keep working and stay ready. 

Many HAs are now waiving SAT/ACT for the 2021 class:  Williams, Amherst, Tufts, Northeastern, Boston University, Vassar, Pomona, Davidson, Haverford, Rhodes, UCal system, Scripps, Trinity Texas, Tulane, Case Western, Swarthmore, and more.  No doubt others will add to the list, since the June SAT is now cancelled.  Ivies still require them, as of right now, but that could change.  I don't know if this helps or hurts athletic recruits; I guess if you already had a high test score, it could help.  I agree that subject tests are about to go the way of the dinosaur, they were almost completely meaningless anyway.

Many HA D3s and even some D1s (Davidson, William and Mary) have rosters that have a lot of in-state or fairly local players, I would think that recruiting for these schools will just be even more local this year.  Then it can be based on camps, watching local summer-ball games, and contacts with local coaches.  Don't know how that works for Ivies, whose reach is more national.

I think/hope that if you took them and you did well, it will help.  

One thing I'm curious about, along the lines you are thinking, is if there will be more localized assement type scenarios.  Not even on campus. Just meet at a local park and do timed drills, BP, bullpens.  That sort of thing.  At a certain point you'd think that coaches are going to have to go off of more than just video, or even recommendations from travel coaches.  They'll want some way to see the kid in person, meet the kid, etc.  If the summer camps are limited, I wonder if this will become something that takes place. I know I would if I were recruiting.  Obviously not optimal, but given how limited the traditional system will be, I suspect this level of personal recruiting will have to be considered. 

Smitty28 posted:

I went through my notes (son was 2019 recruited by Ivy's and Patriot, among others) and the summer going into senior year was big.  Most of the schools had a small handful of commits at that point and used the summer to get more looks, make offers and stock up.  I looked at Perfect Game and they show very few 2021 commits for Ivy or Patriot at this point. 

Not all Ivy League players do Perfect Game events. Also some who do, don't list them self  as "PG commit" until receiving acceptance from school or at least the Likely letter.

Wechson posted:

ABSORBER posted:

.

This is all spot on.  Another crazy wrinkle to this is standardized tests.  Our guy took them in Oct & Dec and got to the place he needed for these schools. But that process has been delayed as well.  Spring ACT was delayed as will June SAT.  So does that give the kid with good test scores an advantage?   Or good grades before many schools went to p/f?  And what about Subject tests which are generally required for Ivy’s AI?  All TBD.  We know our son is in many radars given last years performance on HA circuit.  He has grades, test scores and was just waiting to show off the improved Velo, exit Velo.  Will have to see if he has chance to do so, but he knows if it happens he’s going to have to be very ready. 

All Good points. The fact that Ivy League looks for D1 level players who have taken a difficult challenging curriculum really comes into play. Even if your HS courses are now perhaps P/F, the AP's you took jr/senior year are still "AP's". The college board is still giving AP Exams, albeit without multiple choice. My AP stats exam is a few days after the seniors last day of school with a make-up in June. Apparently just over 2/3 of the AP students surveyed nationally still wanted an semblance of a AP exam.

Ripken Fan posted:

Smitty28 posted:

I went through my notes (son was 2019 recruited by Ivy's and Patriot, among others) and the summer going into senior year was big.  Most of the schools had a small handful of commits at that point and used the summer to get more looks, make offers and stock up.  I looked at Perfect Game and they show very few 2021 commits for Ivy or Patriot at this point. 

Not all Ivy League players do Perfect Game events. Also some who do, don't list them self  as "PG commit" until receiving acceptance from school or at least the Likely letter.

No, but from what I can tell the only school that really seems to try to get the jump on this process is Penn.  Most of the other schools follow along the timeline @Smitty28 outlined.  No Ivy or Patriot school will have over half of their commits.   Most probably 2-3 tops. Just given the grades and testing alone they have to wait, suspect it’s fairly routine for a percentage of kids who were trending well academically to slip Junior year when the curriculum intensifies.  And don’t think there will be a ton of kids returning ether, but that’s TBD.  All in all I think there will be over 3/4 of the slots left and very limited ways to test the athletes like they have in summers past.  Don’t know how that will impact the decision making process or timeline, but it has to have SOME impact. 

I just took a look at Holy Cross' (Patriot) commitments for 2013 HS grads. This was a few years before my son graduated, but we started his search early. This was an USUALLY high recruiting class- 19 or 20!! by far around double what they usually recruit.  11 are listed on P.G.

Wechson posted:

Ripken Fan posted:

Smitty28 posted:

I went through my notes (son was 2019 recruited by Ivy's and Patriot, among others) and the summer going into senior year was big.  Most of the schools had a small handful of commits at that point and used the summer to get more looks, make offers and stock up.  I looked at Perfect Game and they show very few 2021 commits for Ivy or Patriot at this point. 

Not all Ivy League players do Perfect Game events. Also some who do, don't list them self  as "PG commit" until receiving acceptance from school or at least the Likely letter.

No, but from what I can tell the only school that really seems to try to get the jump on this process is Penn.  Most of the other schools follow along the timeline @Smitty28 outlined.  . 

Penn typically does have the earliest commits/posting particularly with pitchers. Brown publicizes their recruiting class members the earliest.

Ripken Fan posted:

Wechson posted:

Ripken Fan posted:

Smitty28 posted:

I went through my notes (son was 2019 recruited by Ivy's and Patriot, among others) and the summer going into senior year was big.  Most of the schools had a small handful of commits at that point and used the summer to get more looks, make offers and stock up.  I looked at Perfect Game and they show very few 2021 commits for Ivy or Patriot at this point. 

Not all Ivy League players do Perfect Game events. Also some who do, don't list them self  as "PG commit" until receiving acceptance from school or at least the Likely letter.

No, but from what I can tell the only school that really seems to try to get the jump on this process is Penn.  Most of the other schools follow along the timeline @Smitty28 outlined.  . 

Penn typically does have the earliest commits/posting particularly with pitchers. Brown publicizes their recruiting class members the earliest.

Right now, PG has 2021 commitments listed as:

Holy Cross: 0

Brown: 1

Penn: 7

Ivy League Commitment Listing (PG and PBR):

Brown: 1

Columbia: 2

Cornell: 1

Dartmouth: 3

Harvard: 2 (one is a 2020 re-class)

Penn: 8

Princeton: 1

Yale: 2

Ripken Fan posted:

Penn typically does have the earliest commits/posting particularly with pitchers. Brown publicizes their recruiting class members the earliest.

Not last year! They were the last to post. At least on PG. I didn't check PBR last year.

Looks like Penn won't sweat this year as they already have 8.  Don't think I'd plan on attending any camps for them if I were a 2021.

anotherparent posted:

…………………………………………………...

Many HA D3s and even some D1s (Davidson, William and Mary) have rosters that have a lot of in-state or fairly local players, I would think that recruiting for these schools will just be even more local this year.  Then it can be based on camps, watching local summer-ball games, and contacts with local coaches.  Don't know how that works for Ivies, whose reach is more national.

This is a great point anotherparent!  If I was a HA recruit, I'd pay particular attention to this point with these D1 HA schools that you've mentioned and others like them (Northwestern come to mind).

Several of the Ivies and W&L have canceled summer camps.  Looks like HeadFirst and Showball will be key.  

Some other schools are not charging a deposit to give both camp and attendee more time to see what the virus does.

I can’t imagine summer ball will be full swing before July.  Right now, I’d say it is 50:50 on WWBA in Atl...

leftymagic posted:

Several of the Ivies and W&L have canceled summer camps.  Looks like HeadFirst and Showball will be key.  

Some other schools are not charging a deposit to give both camp and attendee more time to see what the virus does.

 

I can’t imagine summer ball will be full swing before July.  Right now, I’d say it is 50:50 on WWBA in Atl...

HF has a camp in September.  This might be a last chance scenario for everyone involved if the summer events are canceled.  I hope HF is ready for the biggest event they've ever held.

I've been following the Ivys for a while.  Penn has a tendency to get players to verbally commit early in the process.  This year is no exception based on Absorber's list (above)

Don't let this list bother your son especially if he is talking to multiple Ivys.   I've yet to see how getting early recruits has helped Penn get an advantage or win championships over the last 11 years.   

fenwaysouth posted:

I've been following the Ivys for a while.  Penn has a tendency to get players to verbally commit early in the process.  This year is no exception based on Absorber's list (above)

Don't let this list bother your son especially if he is talking to multiple Ivys.   I've yet to see how getting early recruits has helped Penn get an advantage or win championships over the last 11 years.   

 

Thanks for posting that! Looks fairly even, perhaps we should go back another 10 years! Since your son played during these years at Cornell, what's your opinion on Columbia? They seem to have done pretty well. I do know they do take transfer students but have no idea whether they had any impact at all.

Columbia seemed to be at all the big tournaments when my son was going through the process.  I saw them at WWBA in GA, Jupiter, USA Baseball in AZ.  They seemed to be more active (certainly more visible) than other Ivy's.

I haven't read through this entire thread yet, but I'm wondering if anyone else is seeing a flurry of emails from coaches at high academic D1s and D3s advising that they are going to primarily do their recruiting at Showball events and listing them out.  These are coming from coaches (so far at least 5 in different parts of the country) who had already indicated that my son was on their "board" or "follow list," etc., for the summer and asked for his (pre-Covid19) summer schedule.

LuckyCat posted:

I haven't read through this entire thread yet, but I'm wondering if anyone else is seeing a flurry of emails from coaches at high academic D1s and D3s advising that they are going to primarily do their recruiting at Showball events and listing them out.  These are coming from coaches (so far at least 5 in different parts of the country) who had already indicated that my son was on their "board" or "follow list," etc., for the summer and asked for his (pre-Covid19) summer schedule.

Yup.  Seems to be the arrangement. Not sure why it's all firm on Showball as opposed to HF, but those are the emails our son has been receiving as well. 

Yes, it seems like Showball has locked something down with some schools.  The emails are strangely similar -- listing out the events locations and dates, although they also contain more personalized information from the coach.  I'm really wondering what this means for Head First, which was the showcase camp my son was planning to attend at the end of the summer.  The emails imply, rather than explicitly state, that Showball may be the only place they will get to see my son.

LuckyCat posted:

Yes, it seems like Showball has locked something down with some schools.  The emails are strangely similar -- listing out the events locations and dates, although they also contain more personalized information from the coach.  I'm really wondering what this means for Head First, which was the showcase camp my son was planning to attend at the end of the summer.  The emails imply, rather than explicitly state, that Showball may be the only place they will get to see my son.

Same deal.  I know they compete with on another, and that Showball bills itself as the one where they have Head Coaches, as opposed to a mix of Head and Assistant/RC's.  Certainly seems like a coordinated push.  

ABSORBER posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

………………………………………..

Thanks for posting that! Looks fairly even, perhaps we should go back another 10 years! Since your son played during these years at Cornell, what's your opinion on Columbia? They seem to have done pretty well. I do know they do take transfer students but have no idea whether they had any impact at all.

Columbia has been the 800lb gorilla the last 10 years, and they continue to be unless someone takes their spot.   They are extremely well coached, and have had some great athletes play for them and get drafted.   One of their starting baseball players was also the starting goalie on their soccer team.   He was 6'6" with this big lefty upper cut swing, and Columbia has a very short center field.   He was a very physically imposing guy.   I saw him hit a baseball into orbit at the University of Richmond when my son was there on a recruiting trip.  It was a freaking blast over the parking lot!   Fast forward a couple years, and my son is a freshmen when he faces this same guy @ Columbia and to say I was concerned for his health is an understatement.   My son was sitting next to me at the Richmond game and he remembered this guy...he's kind of hard to forget!   The first time through the lineup he struck him out on high cheese and the second time on a change up.   I was very relieved.

I'm actually pretty surprised Boretti is still there.   He must really like it there.   Dartmouth was the 800lb gorilla the previous 10 years before Columbia when my son was being recruited by a few of the Ivys.  Transfers are a fairly new thing in the ivy (based on what I've been told) and I don't recall Columbia or Dartmouth having any notable transfers at the time my son played....I'm too lazy to look at their rosters.    They did have one guy who had served in the Army who went back to college, and was like 28 years old when he graduated.   He was a very good player for them.

Smitty28 posted:

Columbia seemed to be at all the big tournaments when my son was going through the process.  I saw them at WWBA in GA, Jupiter, USA Baseball in AZ.  They seemed to be more active (certainly more visible) than other Ivy's.

They were the first Ivy to show interest in my son and the first to invite him to visit. They were at the PBR Future Games and definitely they attend WWBA events.

As I stated earlier--my son did not attend a HF event although I've heard they are good. But if it were me, I would always attend Showball over HF, especially if you are interested in Ivy or other HA D1 schools.  Ultimately head coaches make offers, even if they come to you via an assistant coach.

My suspicion is the $ paid to head coaches is better at Showball; perhaps due to less overhead.  That's just my opinion but there must be something to get that many coaches at the same event. The head guy is a good guy so I'm sure that's part of it also! He was very good to my son; he gave him a slot at his position even though the camp was 100% full last summer.

fenwaysouth posted:

They did have one guy who had served in the Army who went back to college, and was like 28 years old when he graduated.   He was a very good player for them.

Not sure if you are referring to the former Marine who played a few years ago; he was a transfer and he was indeed older. He was also drafted (baseball)! Columbia has been good to veterans--in fact all the Ivy's have probably increased their veteran numbers over the last decade.

Wechson posted:

Same deal.  I know they compete with on another, and that Showball bills itself as the one where they have Head Coaches, as opposed to a mix of Head and Assistant/RC's.  Certainly seems like a coordinated push.  

I remember several years ago my son got a letter (in the mail!) from a coach, saying they were interested, and he should go to xxx showcase, which was a regional one.  He was a sophomore, this was a D1 school.  We didn't know what to think (had not yet found hsbbw).  Then he got another identical letter from a different school, for the same showcase, so we figured it was just a form letter.  So, he didn't go, and since he never heard from either of them again, I assume we were right.  That showcase organization had obviously sent their list to the attending schools, and told them to try to drum up business.  It's a clever marketing model.

I'm not saying that that is what Showball is doing, and honestly, I'd think there is plenty of HA business to go around, if they even get to hold these events.  I'd say that if you are already in communication with a coach, tell them that you had originally planned to attend Headfirst, for xxx reason, and ask which they prefer.  If they are genuinely interested, they will tell you.

anotherparent posted:

That showcase organization had obviously sent their list to the attending schools, and told them to try to drum up business.  It's a clever marketing model.

I think it's probably the other way around. Schools obtain those lists from the showcase companies. Your camp invite to their school comes from that list.

ABSORBER posted:

anotherparent posted:

That showcase organization had obviously sent their list to the attending schools, and told them to try to drum up business.  It's a clever marketing model.

I think it's probably the other way around. Schools obtain those lists from the showcase companies. Your camp invite to their school comes from that list.

And of course if we are talking about HF I would imagine coaches do try to drum up business for HF because they stand to make more money. Most coaches at HF (from what have seen) are volunteer assistants.

ABSORBER posted:

ABSORBER posted:

anotherparent posted:

That showcase organization had obviously sent their list to the attending schools, and told them to try to drum up business.  It's a clever marketing model.

I think it's probably the other way around. Schools obtain those lists from the showcase companies. Your camp invite to their school comes from that list.

And of course if we are talking about HF I would imagine coaches do try to drum up business for HF because they stand to make more money. Most coaches at HF (from what have seen) are volunteer assistants.

Of course schools also get lists from the showcase companies.  But these were mailings from individual college coaches inviting him to a multi-school showcase (not Headfirst), run by a third-party company. Not to their own camps.

No coach ever asked my son to go to either Headfirst or Showball.  All his invitations to Headfirst came directly from Headfirst, and same with Showball.  That was a couple of years ago.  If now head coaches are telling people to go to Showball, then that's different from what my son experienced - maybe it's the shutdown, maybe it's marketing.  

I think your experience was more with D1s, our was with D3s.  My son was seen by some D3 head coaches at Headfirst, and got offers (of admission slots) even though he was seen by ACs there.  It worked for him.

The coaches are being paid to be there. I imagine their payment is tiered based on volume of kids attending. I’ve heard SB has more head coaches than HF. SB probably pays more to get the head coaches

anotherparent posted:

ABSORBER posted:

ABSORBER posted:

anotherparent posted:

That showcase organization had obviously sent their list to the attending schools, and told them to try to drum up business.  It's a clever marketing model.

I think it's probably the other way around. Schools obtain those lists from the showcase companies. Your camp invite to their school comes from that list.

And of course if we are talking about HF I would imagine coaches do try to drum up business for HF because they stand to make more money. Most coaches at HF (from what have seen) are volunteer assistants.

Of course schools also get lists from the showcase companies.  But these were mailings from individual college coaches inviting him to a multi-school showcase (not Headfirst), run by a third-party company. Not to their own camps.

No coach ever asked my son to go to either Headfirst or Showball.  All his invitations to Headfirst came directly from Headfirst, and same with Showball.  That was a couple of years ago.  If now head coaches are telling people to go to Showball, then that's different from what my son experienced - maybe it's the shutdown, maybe it's marketing.  

I think your experience was more with D1s, our was with D3s.  My son was seen by some D3 head coaches at Headfirst, and got offers (of admission slots) even though he was seen by ACs there.  It worked for him.

The coaches reaching out to recruits saying they're going to be at Showball events is new, and absolutely due to the situation.  Essentially them saying that pre-Corona they had planned on a broader recruiting schedule, including campus run events, but now the only thing they are committing to is going to go to these 6-8 Showball events.  And if you want to be seen, providing they aren't closed due to government mandate, that's where they're saying they'll be.  At first I thought it was a one off, but as someone else noted our son has received essentially the same message and schedule from a few different HC's now. 

ABSORBER posted:

Smitty28 posted:

Columbia seemed to be at all the big tournaments when my son was going through the process.  I saw them at WWBA in GA, Jupiter, USA Baseball in AZ.  They seemed to be more active (certainly more visible) than other Ivy's.

They were the first Ivy to show interest in my son and the first to invite him to visit. They were at the PBR Future Games and definitely they attend WWBA events.

Columbia's formula: Solid HC. Usually have an ace or two. Recruit big guys with an uppercut swing.  (Fielding usually doesn't hurt over the course of the season, often a result of a player out of position because bat is needed).

Any 2022 kids getting these invites?

Are they allowed to talk to 2022 kids directly yet?

anotherparent posted:

No coach ever asked my son to go to either Headfirst or Showball.  All his invitations to Headfirst came directly from Headfirst, and same with Showball.  That was a couple of years ago.  If now head coaches are telling people to go to Showball, then that's different from what my son experienced - maybe it's the shutdown, maybe it's marketing.  

 

Yes, I think this is specifically Corona-virus related.  The head coaches are reaching out to potential recruits they have on their lists to advise them where they will be this summer--Showball--rather than asking them where the recruits will be because their travel will be limited and they aren't having a prospect camp.  A couple of the emails say this. 

Interestingly, two schools so far have followed up to clarify that other staff will be at other events, so I guess they are reading this forum. 

I think you guys need to learn how email lists work and how email functionality can be manipulated. Nobody is reading these forums. Good lord.

You would be amazed at the money that showcases and camps pay coaches, especially HC's, to be at events.  There is a tiered system with many of them.  When you show up, sometimes they will ask you what schools you are interested in or where did you get the information from.  That goes directly back to the coaches.  I know some will have the organization or school in the email list so they know they sent them out.  Some are required to send the invite to a certain amount of schools.  Coaches make good money just going to showcases and camps to sit in the stands or in the booths. 

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think you guys need to learn how email lists work and how email functionality can be manipulated. Nobody is reading these forums. Good lord.

Actually there are several college coaches on this forum that very rarely respond but are on here and read it.  There are also several parents of college coaches on here also.  A couple of my friends that are D1 coaches are on here either as lurkers or readers.  They have sent me texts about my posts and other posts.

Yes exactly pitching.... it’s a way for them to get “credit”. Not really a signal as to how they will be recruiting.

PitchingFan posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think you guys need to learn how email lists work and how email functionality can be manipulated. Nobody is reading these forums. Good lord.

Actually there are several college coaches on this forum that very rarely respond but are on here and read it.  There are also several parents of college coaches on here also.  A couple of my friends that are D1 coaches are on here either as lurkers or readers.  They have sent me texts about my posts and other posts.

HeadFirst consistently posts on here.  Thought the sanctimonious tone of that post was unnecessary.  If you have information that you'd like to share with people (eg how email lists works) by all means do so.  Many would appreciate it. But if you're going to get chippy about matters at least be correct in your assertions. 

PitchingFan posted:

You would be amazed at the money that showcases and camps pay coaches, especially HC's, to be at events.  There is a tiered system with many of them.  When you show up, sometimes they will ask you what schools you are interested in or where did you get the information from.  That goes directly back to the coaches.  I know some will have the organization or school in the email list so they know they sent them out.  Some are required to send the invite to a certain amount of schools.  Coaches make good money just going to showcases and camps to sit in the stands or in the booths. 

We have had this discussion before.

What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. 

For unpaid assistants to work camps or showcases, it's not. 

I would be curious to know what coaches actually are lurkers.

TPM posted:

PitchingFan posted:

You would be amazed at the money that showcases and camps pay coaches, especially HC's, to be at events.  There is a tiered system with many of them.  When you show up, sometimes they will ask you what schools you are interested in or where did you get the information from.  That goes directly back to the coaches.  I know some will have the organization or school in the email list so they know they sent them out.  Some are required to send the invite to a certain amount of schools.  Coaches make good money just going to showcases and camps to sit in the stands or in the booths. 

We have had this discussion before.

What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. 

For unpaid assistants to work camps or showcases, it's not. 

I would be curious to know what coaches actually are lurkers.

 

Then they wouldn't be lurkers haha

PitchingFan posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think you guys need to learn how email lists work and how email functionality can be manipulated. Nobody is reading these forums. Good lord.

Actually there are several college coaches on this forum that very rarely respond but are on here and read it.  There are also several parents of college coaches on here also.  A couple of my friends that are D1 coaches are on here either as lurkers or readers.  They have sent me texts about my posts and other posts.

As a parent of two sons that played HS and college baseball this site has been very valuable to me. Especially in helping to develop recruiting strategies. I have also developed some good friendships and have learned a lot of things on a lot of subjects. I would highly recommend this site to the parents of any aspiring ballplayer. 

 I’m also a Volunteer Asst Coach at a Texas Jr College. From the standpoint of a college coach I see no benefits to being on this site. I find it very hard to believe that any paid college coaches are on this site, (and posting), unless it is purely for the sake of amusement. 

Purely amusement.  i didn't say they were posting but they do read it every now and then.  One has told me it gives him perspective when dealing with parents and a good laugh every now and then.

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

I'm not debating that at all, so no need to apologize.  This is a platform for parents and students, and a useful one at that.  My comment was specifically in regards to Showcases, given that Headfirst posts on here frequently.  Which makes sense given that this is their target audience.  Needless to say coaches have better things to do, even now. 

Wechson posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

I'm not debating that at all, so no need to apologize.  This is a platform for parents and students, and a useful one at that.  My comment was specifically in regards to Showcases, given that Headfirst posts on here frequently.  Which makes sense given that this is their target audience.  Needless to say coaches have better things to do, even now. 

Absolutely you are correct. 

TPM posted:

Wechson posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

I'm not debating that at all, so no need to apologize.  This is a platform for parents and students, and a useful one at that.  My comment was specifically in regards to Showcases, given that Headfirst posts on here frequently.  Which makes sense given that this is their target audience.  Needless to say coaches have better things to do, even now. 

Absolutely you are correct. 

Thank you @TPM. In these days of stay at home lockdowns, those are words I'm no longer accustomed to hearing :-)

TPM posted:

Wechson posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

I'm not debating that at all, so no need to apologize.  This is a platform for parents and students, and a useful one at that.  My comment was specifically in regards to Showcases, given that Headfirst posts on here frequently.  Which makes sense given that this is their target audience.  Needless to say coaches have better things to do, even now. 

Absolutely you are correct. 

Agreed. If they aren’t going to read emails from players it’s pretty hard to believe that they would read posts from parents on a message board. 

What?  Wait!  What?  They're NOT reading my son's emails that I've so carefully crafted for, uh,  I mean WITH him?

smokeminside posted:

What?  Wait!  What?  They're NOT reading my son's emails that I've so carefully crafted for, uh,  I mean WITH him?

Well, they might read YOUR emails. Always a chance that it’s a sestina. 

I guess I should let everyone know that since Chico threw down the gauntlet of the villanelle I have ventured into that rarest of territories. After almost three weeks I have written four lines, which I will share later. Please be patient and do not crowd the audience in front of you.

In the meantime I will leave you with this:

There once was a man from Nantucket

Who, when he swung, always stepped in the bucket.

Each fine day at the plate

he still swung his bat late

And as for strike three, well, he tucket.

smokeminside posted:

I guess I should let everyone know that since Chico threw down the gauntlet of the villanelle I have ventured into that rarest of territories. After almost three weeks I have written four lines, which I will share later. Please be patient and do not crowd the audience in front of you.

In the meantime I will leave you with this:

There once was a man from Nantucket

Who, when he swung, always stepped in the bucket.

Each fine day at the plate

he still swung his bat late

And as for strike three, well, he tucket.

I was more than a little concerned about where you were going with that after reading the first line.....

Well, I still have children at home.

But, in these trying times, I must admit I've become quite fond of one of bucket's doppelgängers in particular.

BTW, I should have worked Kirby Puckett into that thing.  I'm a little slow today. 

Wish they were ball players!

PitchingFan posted:

Purely amusement.  i didn't say they were posting but they do read it every now and then.  One has told me it gives him perspective when dealing with parents and a good laugh every now and then.

No one said that you implied that they posted.

If a coach has to come to the HSBBW to get a better perspective on dealing with parents, he can't be a very good coach.  Not sure if you meant HS or college coaches, but either way to suggest that they come here for entertainment is an insult to both parents and coaches. JMO

I also want to make clear, since you did not, that paid D1 coaches do not participate in camps or showcases and do not get paid for attending college showcases or any event on campus.  Don't confuse folks by making them think that if they saw XYZ  University was attending an on campus event or showcase, more than likely its the unpaid assistant.

This doesn't apply to the the larger events attended by paid coaches, like PG, PBR,  HF, who are actually recruiting because this is their job.   

Fact is that they have to pay the same gate fees as you do.

I know that you will take this the wrong way, but please be clear regarding your statements.  

I live in the Dallas area. The JuCo where I’m a Volunteer Asst Coach is in West Texas. So I’m not on campus very often. I do what I can from here - which is some scouting, recruiting & advising. I go to a lot of showcases - mostly in DFW but also other areas of Texas. Sometimes I have been paid but most times I opt not to be paid because I want to evaluate players that show potential not players that have been assigned to me to grade. FWIW most coaches do a pretty good job on the evaluations. To echo the point that TPM made, not once have I ever seen a D1 HC at a showcase event where coaches are being paid. If a D1 school is represented it is always a non-paid guy and usually the lowest guy on the ladder. I have seen D2 HCs at these events but the majority of the schools are D3 and JuCo - and these schools recruit heavily at these events. I imagine that many of you already know all this but if you are a newcomer to HSBBW, there you go. 

@adbono posted:

I live in the Dallas area. The JuCo where I’m a Volunteer Asst Coach is in West Texas. So I’m not on campus very often. I do what I can from here - which is some scouting, recruiting & advising. I go to a lot of showcases - mostly in DFW but also other areas of Texas. Sometimes I have been paid but most times I opt not to be paid because I want to evaluate players that show potential not players that have been assigned to me to grade. FWIW most coaches do a pretty good job on the evaluations. To echo the point that TPM made, not once have I ever seen a D1 HC at a showcase event where coaches are being paid. If a D1 school is represented it is always a non-paid guy and usually the lowest guy on the ladder. I have seen D2 HCs at these events but the majority of the schools are D3 and JuCo - and these schools recruit heavily at these events. I imagine that many of you already know all this but if you are a newcomer to HSBBW, there you go. 

Hmm, not saying I don’t believe you but I suppose the “legality” regarding their pay must be documented somewhere in the NCAA. I’ll take a look when I get a chance but in the meantime if someone has it please post it here so we all can be enlightened.

As far as attendance, most definitely head coaches and paid assistant coaches attend  showcases, not only those put on by third-party organizations and individuals, but also those put on by themselves. And in many cases the check the player submits to attend is made out to the HC. I am sure he pays people out of this fund (unpaid assistants and others) but I don’t know whether he gets any of it.

So clearly someone receives money when a HC attends Showball (and for those that haven’t attended they are ALL head coaches). And also Stanford Camp. And others my son has attended where HC’s were present WITHOUT any of their assistant coaches being there at the same time.

First of all, you have to distinguish between a camp and a showcase. And there are various kinds of both. What I related was my own personal experience at the showcase events that I have attended. I attend events that are frequented by players that are junior college prospects.  That eliminates Head First and other events that target high academic student athletes. I didn’t say that HCs never attend camps or showcases. I said that at the showcases I have attended, where coaches have gotten paid, I have never seen a D1 HC. Next time I would encourage you to read a little more closely before you fire off an argumentative response. 

@adbono posted:

To echo the point that TPM made, not once have I ever seen a D1 HC at a showcase event where coaches are being paid. If a D1 school is represented it is always a non-paid guy and usually the lowest guy on the ladder. 

TPM posted this today: “paid D1 coaches do not participate in camps or showcases and do not get paid for attending college showcases or any event on campus.“

And this yesterday: “We have had this discussion before. What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. “

What exactly was the point you were echoing in your post?

A lot of good information can be found on this site but just as you’ll find out on the internet, there is a lot of wrong or misleading information as well. Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking truth.

@ABSORBER posted:

Hmm, not saying I don’t believe you but I suppose the “legality” regarding their pay must be documented somewhere in the NCAA. I’ll take a look when I get a chance but in the meantime if someone has it please post it here so we all can be enlightened.

As far as attendance, most definitely head coaches and paid assistant coaches attend  showcases, not only those put on by third-party organizations and individuals, but also those put on by themselves. And in many cases the check the player submits to attend is made out to the HC. I am sure he pays people out of this fund (unpaid assistants and others) but I don’t know whether he gets any of it.

So clearly someone receives money when a HC attends Showball (and for those that haven’t attended they are ALL head coaches). And also Stanford Camp. And others my son has attended where HC’s were present WITHOUT any of their assistant coaches being there at the same time.

Camps have nothing to do with the university. All, or I will say is that most camps, are owned by the HC, and it belongs to them. Some camps are bigger money makers than others. I am going on what knowledge I have from D1, D2.

I think that I posted this recently, but will repeat. Coaches average their camp attendance yearly. They pay the volunteer assistants monthly on a draw. When the players help they get a paycheck as well.  That's where the camp money goes.  If the coach doesn't own the camp, the money is dispensed through the school. The paid assistant coaches, will get a check for the prospect camps, pitching, catcher, hitting. That money is considered their bonus. The larger the attendance the more money for the volunteers. At some programs with huge camps, the volunteer assistant can make just as much as a paid coach, but has no benefits. 

Not sure what coaches you are talking about, D1, D2, D3?   I think D3 HC from smaller programs coaches do help at  other camps, showcases, depends on the structure of the program. In smaller programs the HC may be  the pitching coach or the  hitting coach, and get a small salary.  He may not  be able to afford 2 paid assistants, so he has to go on the road as well.

We weren't talking about camps or , showcase programs that are at the coaches own program.

I think one of the reasons why so many work their butts off is to become a HC and not have to go on the road unless necessary.  HCs run the business side of the team. 

I am not familiar with how Snowball or Stanford runs their business. 

@ABSORBER posted:

TPM posted this today: “paid D1 coaches do not participate in camps or showcases and do not get paid for attending college showcases or any event on campus.“

And this yesterday: “We have had this discussion before. What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. “

What exactly was the point you were echoing in your post?

A lot of good information can be found on this site but just as you’ll find out on the internet, there is a lot of wrong or misleading information as well. Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking truth.

I was echoing the point that I have never seen a D1 HC at any of the showcase events that I have attended. TPM has a great deal of experience and knowledge and I respect her opinions. There is a big distinction between the rules in D1 and all the other divisions of baseball. She knows that and I know that. The key to making this site productive is to figure out who the most experienced and knowledgeable people are and then give more weight to their voices. It’s just as important to figure out who are the people that are most knowledgeable about the level of baseball that applies to you. What’s true for D1 May not be true in D3. What’s true in Texas may not be true in Massachusetts. It’s hard to speak in generalities and still be accurate across the board. 

@ABSORBER posted:

TPM posted this today: “paid D1 coaches do not participate in camps or showcases and do not get paid for attending college showcases or any event on campus.“

And this yesterday: “We have had this discussion before. What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. “

What exactly was the point you were echoing in your post?

A lot of good information can be found on this site but just as you’ll find out on the internet, there is a lot of wrong or misleading information as well. Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking truth.

I am sorry, I meant on someone else's campus.  

You can ask Pitchingfan what I meant. We had this discussion a while back.  I don't agree with his claims and that's why I asked did he mean HS or college.

Sure.  But it's a fact that Showball advertises that it has all head coaches at its showcases, that includes Ivy League, Patriot League, Davidson, Georgetown, Richmond, Saint Louis, Wofford, Penn State, etc. etc.  You can look them up on their website.  So the question is, are those coaches being paid by Showball?  I don't know the answer, I'm asking.

Don’t know when Stanford updated its website but all residential summer camps at Stanford have been canceled for 2020.  

@anotherparent posted:

Sure.  But it's a fact that Showball advertises that it has all head coaches at its showcases, that includes Ivy League, Patriot League, Davidson, Georgetown, Richmond, Saint Louis, Wofford, Penn State, etc. etc.  You can look them up on their website.  So the question is, are those coaches being paid by Showball?  I don't know the answer, I'm asking.

Head Coach Academic is advertising HC in attendance.  I don't know the answer as I stated above.  I do know that if it were me, I would want a list of who was attending.  They cater to a different type of student and coach as well as D2, D3, NAIA. 

Sure, and Showball does give a very precise list for each showcase, on their webpage, of exactly which HCs will be there.  I know they cater to different students, but these are D1 head coaches, so they must be following D1 rules.  This whole thing came up because someone said that showcases pay coaches to be there.  There are lots and lots of showcases, not all high academic, (see, at random, Best in the US Showcases) that advertise schools who are in attendance, and provide the names of the coaches.  So the question was, are they paying all these coaches?  some of them?  none of them?

I don't know the inner workings of this specific event, but I can't see how Showball can guarantee the coaches attend unless there is some extra incentive for them to be there. Maybe they pay their camp organization which then helps fund the unpaid staff? However they are doing it can't be against the rules, otherwise you wouldn't have 50 head coaches all risking violations for the same event. 

@anotherparent posted:

Sure, and Showball does give a very precise list for each showcase, on their webpage, of exactly which HCs will be there.  I know they cater to different students, but these are D1 head coaches, so they must be following D1 rules.  This whole thing came up because someone said that showcases pay coaches to be there.  There are lots and lots of showcases, not all high academic, (see, at random, Best in the US Showcases) that advertise schools who are in attendance, and provide the names of the coaches.  So the question was, are they paying all these coaches?  some of them?  none of them?

IVY League and HA schools have their own set of rules.  But I sincerely believe the D1 PAID coaches including Head Coaches do not get paid.  

You are correct,  the statement made was that showcases pay coaches to be there. I did ask what events and who the coaches were, HS, college but did receive a response to my question.  

It was Pitchingfan who made that statement so you might want to ask for clarification.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

I don't know the inner workings of this specific event, but I can't see how Showball can guarantee the coaches attend unless there is some extra incentive for them to be there. Maybe they pay their camp organization which then helps fund the unpaid staff? However they are doing it can't be against the rules, otherwise you wouldn't have 50 head coaches all risking violations for the same event. 

Wouldn't  the incentive be to get to see and observe recruits for their program?  

I am sure they get paid. I doubt they do this just to see recruits. They all hold their own camps where they take in money and have the opportunity to see players. For Showball to get as many coaches as they do, there has to be some incentive. All eight Ivy HC's are at numerous Showball events in a given year. Some Ivy HC's attend the Stanford camp as well.

This is why I mentioned Showball on this thread. I was recommending Showball over HF because ONLY head coaches attend. I think some folks on here think that Showball just says it's a HC Academic Camp and maybe a few will show up. That's not true at all. Showball means HC are attending; that's their business model. I just checked their web site and see there are just two non-HC camps this year: the West Coast World Series Camp and the Super Mega Camp). And there are 8 Head Coach Academic Camps for 2020 (of course subject to COVID changes I'm sure). All the Ivy HC's will be attending all of the HC Academic Camps. Like they have in previous years. I doubt they do this for free. Now is it possible their non-school business gets the payment and they turn around and pay their assistants from that pot? I'm sure that's very possible. But I doubt it...

I don't mean to sound like a Showball fanatic or spokesperson but they did me a huge favor last year and I really appreciate them for it. And I chose their model because it is just what my son needed at the time. So if you think those are the coaches that need to see your son then I highly recommend their camp. Otherwise you can try to hit all of the individual camps those schools hold on their own.

@ABSORBER posted:

I am sure they get paid. I doubt they do this just to see recruits. They all hold their own camps where they take in money and have the opportunity to see players. For Showball to get as many coaches as they do, there has to be some incentive. All eight Ivy HC's are at numerous Showball events in a given year. Some Ivy HC's attend the Stanford camp as well.

This is why I mentioned Showball on this thread. I was recommending Showball over HF because ONLY head coaches attend. I think some folks on here think that Showball just says it's a HC Academic Camp and maybe a few will show up. That's not true at all. Showball means HC are attending; that's their business model. I just checked their web site and see there are just two non-HC camps this year: the West Coast World Series Camp and the Super Mega Camp). And there are 8 Head Coach Academic Camps for 2020 (of course subject to COVID changes I'm sure). All the Ivy HC's will be attending all of the HC Academic Camps. Like they have in previous years. I doubt they do this for free. Now is it possible their non-school business gets the payment and they turn around and pay their assistants from that pot? I'm sure that's very possible. But I doubt it...

I don't mean to sound like a Showball fanatic or spokesperson but they did me a huge favor last year and I really appreciate them for it. And I chose their model because it is just what my son needed at the time. So if you think those are the coaches that need to see your son then I highly recommend their camp. Otherwise you can try to hit all of the individual camps those schools hold on their own.

For those interested in Showball, I didn't mean to leave out all of the other schools that attend; I believe all the NESCAC schools attend these Camps as well though I can't say 100% because I didn't keep a list. As I don't know all of them. But I can assure you quite a few were there in Medford, NY last August. I'll try to see if I can dig up the list. It really is the whole gamut of academic schools.

@leftymagic posted:

Don’t know when Stanford updated its website but all residential summer camps at Stanford have been canceled for 2020.  

Thx, Lefty.  I guess they're still trying to keep the camp dates and make them non-residential.  I see how keeping the kids out of dorms could theoretically make them safer, but staying in  hotels may not be a lot better.  

When my son was going through the recruiting process we were out at dinner with an Ivy HC and RC during a campus visit.  During dinner I asked the HC about a small "showcase camp" in Orange County Ca that advertises "Every Ivy League HC will be working the camp", and I asked specifically how the camp gets every Ivy to attend.  He said "Because they pay us".

ABSORBER,

Ok you win,  you know better! 

@TPM posted:

ABSORBER,

Ok you win,  you know better! 

I didn't mean to cause any trouble! I just wanted good information for people on this site!

I did get in trouble a lot in elementary school because I questioned my teachers. Doh! Some things never change!

@ABSORBER posted:

I didn't mean to cause any trouble! I just wanted good information for people on this site!

I did get in trouble a lot in elementary school because I questioned my teachers. Doh! Some things never change!

The world of High Academic college baseball is a small piece of the overall pie. It’s primarily D3 with a couple of D1 conferences and some outliers. It’s a different animal entirely. 

Yes, but they are not all high academic.  Have a look at Best in the US Showcases, not HA, they list coaches by name (but not whether they are HC).  I feel like there were others, some that were more local; MidwestBaseballCamps, for example (actually, they list schools, not coaches).

I agree that the HA market is pretty crowded.  But, there are lots of different slices of this pie.

@adbono posted:

The world of High Academic college baseball is a small piece of the overall pie. It’s primarily D3 with a couple of D1 conferences and some outliers. It’s a different animal entirely. 

Grrrrr. NCAA D1 is no different for Ivy than it is for Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, Alabama, UCF, Arkansas, etc..

They will all attend showcases, host showcases (camps), and attend showcase-like tournaments looking for the right recruit.

Ivy coaches attend academic camps because, well, they are academic camps. The kids are somewhat vetted (well, probably no more than any other camp) but then who wants to pay 1K if your kid has a 2.3 GPA? Actually, I would have been happy with a 2.3 when I graduated from HS!

Concur with Absorber's experience with Showball. Helped us out a couple of years ago, too, when they didn't have to.

Have had excellent experiences with HF, too.

@smokeminside posted:

Concur with Absorber's experience with Showball. Helped us out a couple of years ago, too, when they didn't have to.

Have had excellent experiences with HF, too.

Interestingly, and unbeknownst to us, my son's very good friend (plays on the same H.S. team) attended HF which was a couple of miles away from Showball (Medford, NY) last August. It seemed as if every assistant coach (mostly volunteer assistants) representing the same schools as the HC's who were at Showball, were at HF. Plus other schools.

My son's friend ended up committing to one of the D1's who saw him at HF that week.

@ABSORBER posted:

Grrrrr. NCAA D1 is no different for Ivy than it is for Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, Alabama, UCF, Arkansas, etc..

They will all attend showcases, host showcases (camps), and attend showcase-like tournaments looking for the right recruit.

Ivy coaches attend academic camps because, well, they are academic camps. The kids are somewhat vetted (well, probably no more than any other camp) but then who wants to pay 1K if your kid has a 2.3 GPA? Actually, I would have been happy with a 2.3 when I graduated from HS!

There are some things that all D1 programs have in common. Level of talent is not one of them. Neither is the level of academic standard. Exactly what do you think is the same about programs in the Ivy League and programs in the SEC? 

@adbono posted:

There are some things that all D1 programs have in common. Level of talent is not one of them. Neither is the level of academic standard. Exactly what do you think is the same about programs in the Ivy League and programs in the SEC? 

NCAA rules and regulations. Isn't that what we are all talking about? And yes, the NCAA academic standard is the exact same for the Ivy League and the SEC.

Who's talking about baseball talent?

@ABSORBER posted:

NCAA rules and regulations. Isn't that what we are all talking about? And yes, the NCAA academic standard is the exact same for the Ivy League and the SEC.

Who's talking about baseball talent?

Your comment was very general so I asked you to clarify. You are more interested in arguing than I am. 

OK folks, I'm home from work and since nobody was able to provide this thread with the regulations I looked them up myself. It's really about recruiting irregularities over everything else; not money. The only thing I'm still looking for is the "official" definition for "Recruiting or Scouting Service". Clearly most baseball showcases events are not considered recruiting services. Examples of such? Think NCSA and other organizations that charge recruits for their services. But clearly camps like Stanford, Showball, HF, and many others are NOT considered recruiting services and thus pay coaches. Now what about PG and PBR? Not sure, but I don't think they pay coaches so perhaps that's our answer.

https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/se...awView?id=400#result

NCAA D1 Legislation:

13.12.2.3 Athletics Staff Members. A member institution's athletics staff member may be involved in sports camps or clinics unless otherwise prohibited in this section (see Bylaw 11.3.2.6). [D] (Revised: 8/5/04)

13.12.2.3.1 Camp/Clinic Providing Recruiting or Scouting Service. No athletics department staff member may be employed (either on a salaried or a volunteer basis) in any capacity by a camp or clinic established, sponsored or conducted by an individual or organization that provides recruiting or scouting services concerning prospective student-athletes. In addition, an athletics department staff member may not be employed (either on a salaried or a volunteer basis) in any capacity by a coaches clinic established, sponsored or conducted by an individual or organization that provides recruiting or scouting services concerning prospective student-athletes, even if prospective student athletes are not involved in the coaches clinic. This provision does not prohibit an athletics department staff member from participating in an officiating camp where participants officiate for, but are not otherwise involved in, a scouting services camp. [D] (Adopted: 1/11/89, Revised: 1/10/90, 1/10/92, 8/5/04, 7/24/14)

13.12.2.3.2 Institutional or Noninstitutional, Privately Owned Camps/Clinics -- Baseball. In baseball, an institution's coach or noncoaching staff member with responsibilities specific to baseball may serve in any capacity (e.g., counselor, guest lecturer, consultant) in a noninstitutional, privately owned camp or clinic, provided the camp or clinic is operated in accordance with restrictions applicable to an institutional camp or clinic (e.g., open to any and all entrants, no free or reduced admission to or employment of athletics award winners). However, during a quiet period, an institution's coach or noncoaching staff member with responsibilities specific to baseball may be employed (either on salaried or a volunteer basis) only at his or her institution's camps or clinics that occur on his or her institution's campus or at a facility regularly used by the institution for practice or competition. [D] (Adopted: 4/28/16 effective 8/1/16, Revised: 4/14/17)

So my understanding reading above, is that Showball, HF are not considered same as PG, PBR, so coaches can get paid. 

If that is correct, then what I believed to be true is not 100%.  

I thought that the comment from the coaches that the reason that they attend is because they get paid is pretty telling.  In doing some homework, it's pretty obvious that many, many coaches do not get paid very well.  Which is sad considering how hard they do work.

Showball, HF, PG, PBR, each cater to a specific student athlete/program. That's obvious.

I’m not really sure whether PG and PBR are considered recruiting services. I was just speculating that perhaps they could be considered since I don’t know whether coaches get paid for some of their events. 

But if I had to bet money, I would say they are not. I would imagine a “recruiting service” would be an agency or individual who takes payment from clients for the sole purpose of advocating on their behalf in order to get them recruited. I doubt PG or PBR or any of the other showcase services fall under this umbrella.

Instead I think PG is way too big now and don’t need to pay coaches. Instead, as pointed out by TPM, coaches pay PG so they can attend. Gate fees, etc.. PG also has subscription services that cost $$ where coaches can see info about potential recruits.  I don’t know the early story of PG, perhaps in their early days they did pay coaches to get them to attend. PBR’s model is almost exactly the same. Showball and HF provide reports and video to attending coaches so I don’t see them any differently than I do PG and PBR. I would consider all of them “showcase services” rather than “recruiting services”. 

As far as who attends which? Showball and HF may be academic oriented but PG offers similar showcases. In the end PG and PBR have video and write-ups posted on very visible sites for all (except now you can’t see PBR video without a subscription)  to see. That’s why they are so popular. Oh, and of course their infamous rankings. But PG doesn’t cater to a specific crowd, they cater to all who can afford. Same with everyone else. Many players attend events at all of them for maximum exposure.

The key difference is that Headfirst, Showball, Best in the US, etc. list the coaches who will be present.  They have to be able to guarantee that those coaches will show up, hence paying them.  What you get for your money at those events is to be seen by those coaches.

PBR in our state gets all the in-state coaches, and many out-of-state, at their major recruiting showcases, but they don't list them or advertise that at all.  PG likewise does not list coaches at any events (and some of their showcases, esp during quiet times, don't get any).  What you get for your money is the online write-up and metrics; if coaches see you, that's a plus.  I assume they don't pay coaches.

People have asked on here all the time about the PG Academic game, and whether HA coaches go there; in fact they don't list schools or coaches.  I assume they aren't paying them, therefore can't guarantee who will be there.

What I want to know is, since Showball and Headfirst cost the same, does Showball pay the head coaches more?  But then how are the costs the same?  Economically it doesn't seem to make sense.

So, Harvard has announced it will have a fall semester, but it isn't ruling out having it be partially or fully "virtual," and keeping classes online.  

https://www.thecrimson.com/art...ber-fall-2020-email/

If you ask me, this reads like Harvard is trying to ease everyone into the idea that students will not be returning in the fall, at least not right away.  If high academic schools stick with distance learning this fall, it's really hard to see how their baseball coaches can recruit in person this summer and fall.  If the early decision application deadline is still sometime in November, 2021s will need to know where they are going by then.

On top of that, I'm beginning to think there is little to no chance of either Showball or Head First holding showcases in Long Island this summer.  Suffolk County, were they both hold their events, has had over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 1,000 deaths.  

https://columbia.maps.arcgis.c...4325a12a5b9c09ba796c

What are the chances that the state of New York will lift restrictions enough to allow a baseball showcase in late July or early August?  At a minimum, I think these events will have to be held elsewhere.

Sorry, feeling a little gloomy today, I guess.

@LuckyCat posted:

So, Harvard has announced it will have a fall semester, but it isn't ruling out having it be partially or fully "virtual," and keeping classes online.  

https://www.thecrimson.com/art...ber-fall-2020-email/

If you ask me, this reads like Harvard is trying to ease everyone into the idea that students will not be returning in the fall, at least not right away.  If high academic schools stick with distance learning this fall, it's really hard to see how their baseball coaches can recruit in person this summer and fall.  If the early decision application deadline is still sometime in November, 2021s will need to know where they are going by then.

On top of that, I'm beginning to think there is little to no chance of either Showball or Head First holding showcases in Long Island this summer.  Suffolk County, were they both hold their events, has had over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 1,000 deaths.  

https://columbia.maps.arcgis.c...4325a12a5b9c09ba796c

What are the chances that the state of New York will lift restrictions enough to allow a baseball showcase in late July or early August?  At a minimum, I think these events will have to be held elsewhere.

Sorry, feeling a little gloomy today, I guess.

It's ok to feel gloomy, perfectly natural.  We all have our days.  That said, I do think this is a bit pessimistic.  The schools are going to do everything they can to keep their businesses operational.  Same with the camps.  They basically run a seasonal, very limited business model and they have to make this work.  So if not Long Island, which can obviously be in a much different place come summer, they'll find a location in CT or NJ or Upstate NY where there's been a far smaller caseload from the jump.  That may be overly optimistic, but that's how I'm looking at it.  

Saw this on Twitter today:

An interview with Columbia's Coach Dan Tischler.

https://baseballrecruitingconf...m/podcast-episode75/