Originally Posted by Back foot slider:
Matt,
capitalism at it's best
If that's its best...
Originally Posted by Scotty83:
My education was paid for by football. My job was obtained by my degree. All my possessions were paid for by my job. To me that is a pretty fair trade with the school I attended for playing football for them. The problem isn't playing football for a free education the problem is the athletes that are allowed into an institution of higher education that have no buisness in being there because they don't have the capacity to gain success from that alone.
My education was paid for by football. My job was obtained by my degree. All my possessions were paid for by my job. To me that is a pretty fair trade with the school I attended for playing football for them. The problem isn't playing football for a free education the problem is the athletes that are allowed into an institution of higher education that have no buisness in being there because they don't have the capacity to gain success from that alone.
Maybe the best paragraph I have ever read on this site....
The players do not have value as minor league athletes. Their value is their ability to promote tribal loyalty to the university brand.
There isn't a market demand for several hundred minor league basketball and football teams, but there are several hundred schools who value what the athletes can do for them.
For all the people insisting that compensation should be capped at cost of attendance while also bemoaning how many college athletes are not qualified students: if you know most of these students won't make money in the pros and won't earn degrees that will launch them on careers, how can you possibly justify capping their compensation at the one time in their life they have economic value AND insist on paying them in a currency they do not value?
Originally Posted by Swampboy:
The players do not have value as minor league athletes. Their value is their ability to promote tribal loyalty to the university brand.
There isn't a market demand for several hundred minor league basketball and football teams, but there are several hundred schools who value what the athletes can do for them.
For all the people insisting that compensation should be capped at cost of attendance while also bemoaning how many college athletes are not qualified students: if you know most of these students won't make money in the pros and won't earn degrees that will launch them on careers, how can you possibly justify capping there compensation at the one time in their life they have economic value AND insist on paying them in a currency they do not value.
There isn't a market demand for several hundred minor league basketball and football teams, but there are several hundred schools who value what the athletes can do for them.
For all the people insisting that compensation should be capped at cost of attendance while also bemoaning how many college athletes are not qualified students: if you know most of these students won't make money in the pros and won't earn degrees that will launch them on careers, how can you possibly justify capping there compensation at the one time in their life they have economic value AND insist on paying them in a currency they do not value.
They are in COLLEGE.....they are not at the school to PLAY FOOTBALL!!!! What part of this do people not understand? You can't say pay them to play...and yet allow them to disregard their educational responsibilities. If you don't want to go to college, you're free to go get a job the day you graduate from HS.....but you can't go to college without having to at least MAKE AN EFFORT to attend classes and get an education. College sports only exist because there are colleges....not the other way around.
Originally Posted by Buckeye 2015:
you can't go to college without having to at least MAKE AN EFFORT to attend classes and get an education.
Sure you can (unfortunately). One and done basketball players essentially don't need to attend a single class.
Originally Posted by Swampboy:
Originally Posted by Buckeye 2015:
Originally Posted by Swampboy:
The players do not have value as minor league athletes. Their value is their ability to promote tribal loyalty to the university brand.
There isn't a market demand for several hundred minor league basketball and football teams, but there are several hundred schools who value what the athletes can do for them.
For all the people insisting that compensation should be capped at cost of attendance while also bemoaning how many college athletes are not qualified students: if you know most of these students won't make money in the pros and won't earn degrees that will launch them on careers, how can you possibly justify capping there compensation at the one time in their life they have economic value AND insist on paying them in a currency they do not value.
There isn't a market demand for several hundred minor league basketball and football teams, but there are several hundred schools who value what the athletes can do for them.
For all the people insisting that compensation should be capped at cost of attendance while also bemoaning how many college athletes are not qualified students: if you know most of these students won't make money in the pros and won't earn degrees that will launch them on careers, how can you possibly justify capping there compensation at the one time in their life they have economic value AND insist on paying them in a currency they do not value.
They are in COLLEGE.....they are not at the school to PLAY FOOTBALL!!!! What part of this do people not understand? You can't say pay them to play...and yet allow them to disregard their educational responsibilities. If you don't want to go to college, you're free to go get a job the day you graduate from HS.....but you can't go to college without having to at least MAKE AN EFFORT to attend classes and get an education. College sports only exist because there are colleges....not the other way around.
Many people are in college for all sorts of reasons unrelated to your sense of why they should be there--some to party, some to avoid having to find a job for a few years, some to get involved in politics, some to play sports. It doesn't disqualify an athlete that his primary motive for being in college is unrelated to academics as long as he meets the requirements to be offered athletic money and to continue playing.
If you want to start a separate thread on whether those requirements are sufficiently stringent, please do so. For the purposes of this thread, your generalizations about non-student ball players are distractions from the central issue here, which is whether there should be a limit on how much and how colleges compensate athletes for their services.
Originally Posted by Swampboy:
Originally Posted by Scotty83:
I have absolutely no problem with paying college athletes be it with a stipend, allowing them to market their image or a flat out salary negotiated at sining. However if schools go to that I think it should come with a few changes in the current system.
1. No lowering of acedimic standards.Priceless
1. No lowering of acedimic standards.Priceless
2. If the athlete does not graduate all scholarship money must be paid back. Do you know what a moral hazard is? All a school has to do to collect a quick $100K is accuse a senior athlete of plagiarism or violating a campus speech code.
3. Athletes must pay for use of that multimillion dollar facility they get to use for free. Do you pay your employer for the use of that sweet cubicle, shop or whatever workspace you inhabit, or do you get to use it for free?
4. Athletes must pay for the trainers, doctors, nutritionalists, physical theripist, and so forth that they currently have FREE access to. As long as they can consider those costs when negotiating their compensation, no problem.
5. They should be subject to fines. Are you subject to fines at your job?
Back Door and others who make good points opposed to this: Isn't this just the law of unintended consequences coming home to roost?
The NCAA intends to promote purity. Fine. Problem is, they also want to profit off of athletes. Not so fine.
Athletes want to pursue their dreams and make a lot of money. Fine. Problem is, if they're football or basketball players, the NCAA is the only legit funnel to their dreams.
Baseball, ironically, has a third way. That seems like the solution -- and it's easy to understand why a baseball player should suck it up: He had a choice.
His buds who play football or basketball? Not so much.
I truly feel that majority of kids transitioning into the college world of athletics do not have reality in perspective. I posted in another topic that only about 1% of college athletes make it to the professional level. Less than that actually makes a living at it (meaning playing that sport is their only source of income). I feel that everyone should never give up on their dreams of playing professional sports... UNTIL it's time to start dreaming another dream. College is NOT for everyone. That statement includes athletes. So what is the institution pockets millions and millions of dollars on athletics? That is the business plan that they, NCAA and institutions, have developed. I feel the same people who argue that college athletes need to start getting paid because they have nothing are the same people who argue that professional athletes make too much money.
Originally Posted by coach3:
I feel the same people who argue that college athletes need to start getting paid because they have nothing are the same people who argue that professional athletes make too much money.
I see no relationship between the two at all.
Originally Posted by jp24:
Originally Posted by coach3:
I feel the same people who argue that college athletes need to start getting paid because they have nothing are the same people who argue that professional athletes make too much money.
I see no relationship between the two at all.
Neither do I. I support giving elite revenue-generating college athletes the opportunity to negotiate compensation related to the value they provide their schools, and I have no objection to professional athletes earning whatever the market will pay them.
Originally Posted by coach3:
I feel the same people who argue that college athletes need to start getting paid because they have nothing are the same people who argue that professional athletes make too much money.
NBA and NFL players often get paid far less than what the market dictates, due to salary cap limitations. MLB is a bit different - with no salary cap, but with pre-planned arbitration dates, slotted allotments and free agent clauses, there are below market payments there as well. I feel quite contrary to what you're saying...
2. If the athlete does not graduate all scholarship money must be paid back.
3. Athletes must pay for use of that multimillion dollar facility they get to use for free.
4. Athletes must pay for the trainers, doctors, nutritionalists, physical theripist, and so forth that they currently have FREE access to.
The NCAA received $11 billion for just the NCAA mens basketball tourney rights over 14 years. That's approx. $1 million per player per year.
The players are the 'content' for what is essentially a reality TV show. They are obviously worth $1 million per year.
Originally Posted by Back foot slider:
What I don't think anyone is getting here, is that there just isn't the money to do both. Most schools run at a deficit when it comes to sports, where does the money come from if you have to pay the athletes?
Amateur athletes are not employees, they are given the choice to play, go to school and not play, or get a job....does not sound like a captive situation to me, and certainly not in need of picketing, and unions. If you can provide financial reports of huge profits AFTER ALL sports are funded, both male, and female, then we can talk about income redistribution. Until then, I don't see it happening.
You've got it wrong - money is not the issue for the schools. This is about total control over the student athletes. That's why the athletes can't sell their own autographs.
JH - "This topic strikes a nerve with me."
"I owe just under $100,000 in debt for my student loans. I worked very hard for my education and my collegiate baseball experience. However minimal my economic benefits would be, I'd like to have the opportunity to benefit from my skillset. I wasn't accepted into college on a "favor," my grades were good enough. I didn't receive any athletic scholarship money."
(I didn't think it was possible... but, you just went up further in my esteem. Good for you!)
"I owe just under $100,000 in debt for my student loans. I worked very hard for my education and my collegiate baseball experience. However minimal my economic benefits would be, I'd like to have the opportunity to benefit from my skillset. I wasn't accepted into college on a "favor," my grades were good enough. I didn't receive any athletic scholarship money."
(I didn't think it was possible... but, you just went up further in my esteem. Good for you!)
Originally Posted by jp24:
Originally Posted by coach3:
I feel the same people who argue that college athletes need to start getting paid because they have nothing are the same people who argue that professional athletes make too much money.
I see no relationship between the two at all.
I don't either, however, in conversations, I have heard same people make those two arguments... Yes, different people during different conversations have said these things to me. That's what lead me to believe "the same people who feel college athletes..."
Originally Posted by Swampboy:
Originally Posted by jp24:
Originally Posted by coach3:
I feel the same people who argue that college athletes need to start getting paid because they have nothing are the same people who argue that professional athletes make too much money.
I see no relationship between the two at all.
Neither do I. I support giving elite revenue-generating college athletes the opportunity to negotiate compensation related to the value they provide their schools, and I have no objection to professional athletes earning whatever the market will pay them.
I feel you should not be able to pick and choose. All college athletes put in multiple hours a day to continue and develop their skill set. I feel it needs to be all or no one, not just the "elite revenue-generating college athletes". Now, should pay be equal? I'm not saying that either...
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by coach3:
I feel the same people who argue that college athletes need to start getting paid because they have nothing are the same people who argue that professional athletes make too much money.
NBA and NFL players often get paid far less than what the market dictates, due to salary cap limitations. MLB is a bit different - with no salary cap, but with pre-planned arbitration dates, slotted allotments and free agent clauses, there are below market payments there as well. I feel quite contrary to what you're saying...
I agree with what you are saying. Please refer back to my comment to jp24.
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
You've got it wrong - money is not the issue for the schools. This is about total control over the student athletes. That's why the athletes can't sell their own autographs.
Smitty - I agree with you. The root of this issue is someone else making decisions on behalf of student/athletes, profiting from it, and having no rights whatsoever with the process. The NCAA and some College Presidents have seized control over the whole system. The balance of power is out of whack, and changes are needed.
Originally Posted by fenwaysouth:
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
You've got it wrong - money is not the issue for the schools. This is about total control over the student athletes. That's why the athletes can't sell their own autographs.
Smitty - I agree with you. The root of this issue is someone else making decisions on behalf of student/athletes, profiting from it, and having no rights whatsoever with the process. The NCAA and some College Presidents have seized control over the whole system. The balance of power is out of whack, and changes are needed.
I agree, and I believe that change will have to start by a few dozen major institutions banding together and breaking away from the NCAA. It's a very scary thought but I feel it may be the only way at this point.
I still say that everyone is missing this from a pure financial / economics standpoint.
Point #1: you can't just pay the revenue generating sports, or athletes...you have to figure a way to pay every athlete. Remember Title IX.......
Point #2: if you agree with point #1, there just is not enough money to pay everyone, and I don't believe you will see any scale based on value, to spread the money.
Those who say this is not a money issue, can let me know how you can either get by with just paying those who are profited from, or find enough money to pay everyone. Trust me...control is nice, but money drives the world.
Originally Posted by Back foot slider:
I still say that everyone is missing this from a pure financial / economics standpoint.
Point #1: you can't just pay the revenue generating sports, or athletes...you have to figure a way to pay every athlete. Remember Title IX.......
Point #2: if you agree with point #1, there just is not enough money to pay everyone, and I don't believe you will see any scale based on value, to spread the money.
Those who say this is not a money issue, can let me know how you can either get by with just paying those who are profited from, or find enough money to pay everyone. Trust me...control is nice, but money drives the world.
Of course there's enough money. TV contracts are in the $B, and the NCAA wants to keep it that way. The richest schools have plenty, many at the bottom of the chain do not. Hence the need for the NCAA to put restrictions in place to maintain competitive balance. Without competition the system breaks down and the money flow stops. The athletes are the easiest group in the system to manipulate to keep the engine running.
really??? enough money for whom?
http://www.usatoday.com/sports...ge/schools/finances/
Remember total revenue is before expenses....take a look at the expenses column to see how much is left, and it's a very select few that have any coffers to speak of. We going to redistribute their money too?
Originally Posted by Buckeye 2015:
Sorry, I can't support this. The $100,000+ that they get in free education is more than enough. The problem is, most of the players who are pushing for this have NO DESIRE to get an education...so they don't feel like they're really getting anything. They are there to GET TO THE PRO's....so why do they care if they are getting a free education?? My daugher is a freshman at a major D1 university here in OH-IO. She was number 1 in her HS class with a 4.0 since the day she started 1st grade... got a 32 on her ACT and that earned her a whopping $5,000/year in academic scholarship money. You have football players who were lucky to finish HS, don't go to class, leave after 2 or 3 years and never graduate who get a full ride and yet think they deserve more?? Sorry, but I'll never agree with them.
Buckeye, no offense and kudos to your daughter, but I wouldn't set my Saturday aside to watch her take a test. System is definitely corrupt, but follow the money to understand it.
To answer the post title question. I believe it would be horrible for baseball. I wouldn't be shocked if there were less than 50 baseball programs still around if they did this. Too many people see billion dollar tv deals and think billion dollar net profits. That's not how it works. A very small amout of schools make money off of athletecs. When schools have to make the decision between paying football or basketball players or having a baseball program, I believe baseball will lose almost every time.
It will be very sad for baseball.
It will be very sad for baseball.
Originally Posted by Back foot slider:
really??? enough money for whom?
http://www.usatoday.com/sports...ge/schools/finances/
Remember total revenue is before expenses....take a look at the expenses column to see how much is left, and it's a very select few that have any coffers to speak of. We going to redistribute their money too?
Well, there's plenty of money for about 25 football programs on that list. That's really my point. If those 25 were free to pay then there would be a flow of the best players to those schools and it would shift (maybe destroy) the competitive balance. By the way, I think competitive balance is essential for viability so I'm not arguing that point. My point is that the NCAA has gone to absurd lengths to protect this and the kids are holding the bag. Sure, there are a few that take advantage of the system, but in D1 football alone there are some 120+ schools with ~10,000 players, with less than 250 getting drafted by the NFL - so for the vast majority of athletes it is not about skating through school and get rich in the pros.
Actually, I'm not advocating paying them either. But if they can sell autographed pictures, run clinics, do photo shoots etc and get paid (by customers, not the schools) what is wrong with that? Any other non-athlete student can do the same without penalty. Yes, I get that the 3rd string water polo player probably won't sell as much as an SEC quarterback, but that's life and the way things are sometimes.
Mark Cuban makes the argument for potential NBA players to completely pass on college. He feels like D-league could work out much like a minor league system… http://www.cbssports.com/nba/e...than-ncaa-basketball
Originally Posted by Back foot slider:
Point #2: if you agree with point #1, there just is not enough money to pay everyone, and I don't believe you will see any scale based on value, to spread the money.
The schools don't have to pay anything. Just loosen the restrictions on what the athletes can make from 3rd parties.
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
Originally Posted by Back foot slider:
Point #2: if you agree with point #1, there just is not enough money to pay everyone, and I don't believe you will see any scale based on value, to spread the money.
The schools don't have to pay anything. Just loosen the restrictions on what the athletes can make from 3rd parties.
Miami football boosters are giggling...
About thirty college football programs make money. I'll guess there's more in basketball since the cost of running the program are lower. If athletes were paid there would be a super football conference of thirty teams. They would be hording all the best talent because they could pay them. The remaining D1 football programs would become as relevant as mid majors. Non revenue generating sports would be at a huge risk of being dropped. Where do you think the money to pay football and basketball players will come from. Any sport, like baseball that extends past the end of the school year (which generates more expense) would be at the top of the target list to be dropped.
Do the athletes deserve more than the situation they're in? Yes. Do they deserve salaries? No. If you think about it the idea of letting academically inept people into a college because they can play a sport is absurd. College is for education. Sports were a side bar attraction that became a major business. Look what those guys at Rutgers caused when they told some Princeton guys in a bar they could beat them in football. Cable tv came along and really corrupted the picture with money. It's why I worry about high school sports as more sports cable channels are created and looking for content.
Originally Posted by coach3:
Miami football boosters are giggling...
HEY !! We don't have nearly the deep pockets those big state schools have!
We have to be far more selective in who we pay under the table.
Originally Posted by Rob T:
Originally Posted by coach3:
Miami football boosters are giggling...
HEY !! We don't have nearly the deep pockets those big state schools have!
We have to be far more selective in who we pay under the table.
Several years ago I read We Own This Game: The Adult World Of Youth Football. It was about Pop Warner football in Florida. I came to understand why Florida, Florida State and Miami football players expect to be paid under the table. It starts in Pop Warner down there.
Originally Posted by Rob T:
Originally Posted by coach3:
Miami football boosters are giggling...
HEY !! We don't have nearly the deep pockets those big state schools have!
We have to be far more selective in who we pay under the table.
Touche. Alabama boosters would also beg to differ with my Miami comment.
Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by Rob T:
Originally Posted by coach3:
Miami football boosters are giggling...
HEY !! We don't have nearly the deep pockets those big state schools have!
We have to be far more selective in who we pay under the table.
Several years ago I read We Own This Game: The Adult World Of Youth Football. It was about Pop Warner football in Florida. I came to understand why Florida, Florida State and Miami football players expect to be paid under the table. It starts in Pop Warner down there.
Yes it does. Sad really. There were a bunch of arrests made a couple of years ago that broke up a bookmaking operation that handled thousands of dollars a week worth of bets on youth football. There were even some coaches involved. Kids get recruited from one program to another with cash payoffs. It's the Wild West.
I think people are missing the bigger picture. That is the NFL and NBA being in cahoots with the NCAA. If a kid has the talent and wants to play in the NFL or NBA coming out of HS, they can't. Then next best place for them is a year or two at a "big time" college program. The professional ranks use it as their minor league system. Baseball at least has its own system which competes for talent.
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
I think people are missing the bigger picture. That is the NFL and NBA being in cahoots with the NCAA. If a kid has the talent and wants to play in the NFL or NBA coming out of HS, they can't. Then next best place for them is a year or two at a "big time" college program. The professional ranks use it as their minor league system. Baseball at least has its own system which competes for talent.
My earlier post was basically one owner's opinion of how the NBA should maybe look at transforming the D league into the NBA minor leagues, of sorts. Football, on the other hand, is a tougher beast simply because the average NFL player shelf life is 3 years. They look at the NCAA as their minor leagues.
Some thoughts from a former professor of mine that touch a bit on specified courses of study that are impacted by the current process.
I played college football and enjoyed a 4 year, full ride, all paid, plus $15 per month for laundry. All guaranteed from day one. When the NCAA changed scholarships to one year renewables, they changed the game. They gave the colleges the ability to cut costs by axing players that don't pan out for whatever reason, leaving said player out in the cold to pay for the rest of their college education. It's hard not to sympathize with the athletes as they're just playing the "money game", partly as a result of them being played by the NCAA.
If the NCAA wants the high ground, go back to guaranteed scholarships-as it is now, there is no guarantee of a college education-put the 4 year guarantee back in and then they can claim they're providing the education. As the commercials say, most athletes DO NOT go pro in sports. Mandate a little loyalty to the players from the schools and it's easier to get away from the "pay me" claim....and let's have some real player oriented reforms-let players transfer or void their NLI's when coaches leave, increase the "laundry money" to a reasonable monthly stipend for a college student that has all meals already provided, perhaps $150 per month, let players hire agents to advise them whenever they want (why do we restrict them from getting professional advice?), and put some percentage of revenues from jersey sales into a fund that assists disabled former athletes. The NCAA should try-perhaps for the first time ever-to act like it really gives a hoot about the welfare of the athletes.
They already get paid. A free college education, housing, food, free apparel, free tutoring, free use of facilities etc. etc. also where do you propose the money come from? non revenue sports will start being canceled at record pace. If a player doesn't think enough is offered in a scholarship don't go to school.
Originally Posted by throw'n bb's:
They already get paid. A free college education, housing, food, free apparel, free tutoring, free use of facilities etc. etc. also where do you propose the money come from? non revenue sports will start being canceled at record pace. If a player doesn't think enough is offered in a scholarship don't go to school.
There is a vast difference between getting paid and receiving a discount, even a 100% discount, on the purchase of overpriced goods and services.