What is baseball success?

I think its much simpler than that.

Success (no more than one required):

* First LL hit
* Making the LL all star team
* Making your HS team
* Making your HS varsity team
* Playing beyond HS

I have kids and know kids who have made it no farther than the first one...still love the game as much as anyone and I would call that "success."

Success is playing the game at as a high a level as your ability will allow. Playing HS baseball is a success for most players. Playing college baseball at any level is a success reserved for far fewer players. Playing D1 ball is a success reserved for very few players. Playing top level D1 ball is a success reserved a few elite players. Playing pro ball is a success for a for a few elite players. Staying in pro ball for more than a season or two is a success for a very, very few elite players. Playing in the big leagues is a success reserved for an incredibly few players. Staying in the big leagues, etc., etc.

quote:

Why is making it in college ball not used as a success barometer?

I believe that by employers, having played an NCAA Sport, is indeed viewed a positive barometer for hiring! They understand the focus, drive and hard work necessary to obtain a College scholarship and want that kind of person for their business.

Perhaps to the "athletically challenged" of the world whose only first hand knowledge of sport is what they see on TV, only reaching the Pro level registers with them.

I think everyone's definition of success will be different. However, considering the small percentage of college baseball players who make it to the pros, I'd surely consider playing in college a success.

And that college doesn't have to be ASU or LSU. Earning an degree while continuing to play this great game at ANY level should be considered a success.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Continually, as described on this site and other forum boards, pro ball is used as a so-called success barometer.

Why is making it in college ball not used as a success barometer?

Success in pro baseball is not necessarily for some about reaching the pro level. I don't consider making it to pro ball a success, but rather an opportunity where one works to advance to reach success (what he determines it to be) necessary to reach the highest level.

You will find many pro players (and their organizations) that don't even consider themselves a success until they reach ML, games are termed in good or bad, as are seasons. DK had a good season in terms of his game, however I consider he was sucessful in not making a trip to the DL. The same goes for where you end up, a player called up a few times, isn't successful as the one who sticks the whole season and reaches FA. For those that think that players are successful because they reached pro ball, actually the party has just begun, there is a long climb where one may consider a player successful, of course this is all in one's perception.

The same way with college sports. One may have had success in the college game, but that doesn't make them a failure because he didn't get drafted. Sucess means different things to different people, in baseball it is usually defined in terms of your stats, but personally it can mean much more to each individual. In other words, if my son was to leave the game today, he would never consider himself a success because he didn't reach the highest level, where someone else may consider himself a success for just reaching the pro level.

If you read the MLB team fan sites most fans consider half their teams MLB players losers!

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
If you read the MLB team fan sites most fans consider half their teams MLB players losers!

Correct!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Continually, as described on this site and other forum boards, pro ball is used as a so-called success barometer.

Why is making it in college ball not used as a success barometer?

I don't recall anyone saying it isn't.

I hear of locals who have moved on as having a "successful college career" or a "successful pro career. One can be a success at various levels of performance.

Do all doctors have to be top surgeons to be a success, or can a family practitioner still be a success? Of course he can.

Jimmy

Browse sites and you see the barometer is pro baseball---the majority of the talk is who is a pro prospect and who is playing pro ball---they rarely talk about college prospects and college
players

Why the analogy of doctors ?

I agree with TRhit on this! Look at the use of wood bats.

Why should college and high school baseball switch to wood bats because some folks think that is what the pro's want to see?

Do the pro clubs want to subsidize college baseball at all levels to be the development system for them? It would very easy to see that a very small percentage of players will ever make it into the MiLB.

Why effect the majority that minority will benefit from?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy

Browse sites and you see the barometer is pro baseball---the majority of the talk is who is a pro prospect and who is playing pro ball---they rarely talk about college prospects and college
players

Why the analogy of doctors ?

The analogy of doctors is that medicine is an activity populated by people performing at different levels as is baseball.

I don't have the time for a scientific sampling, but I believe here, there is as much if not more of an emphasis on college propsects as pro. In fact, I more often see good arguments being made for high school players going the college route than accepting a pro contract.

I guess I don't frequent sites that speak primarily about going pro, but I would guess those are populated more by fan-boys than parents and coaches. It's a different audience.

Spoken like a true umpire--- by the way I believe that your "assumption" is incorrect

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
I agree with TRhit on this! Look at the use of wood bats.

Why should college and high school baseball switch to wood bats because some folks think that is what the pro's want to see?

I didn't see that argument in TR post at all.

I think the Wood v. Metal argument is not that simplistic. I do not intend to inflame the emotions or assign credbility to any side, but various people will argue safety, financial concerns, how the game was intended to be played, and other issues.

I think TR's post is more about why some seem to give success of players in college short shrift while going ga-ga over the pros.

Some people want wood bats simply because they believe its the way the game was meant to be played , period. It has nothing to do with preparing them for pro baseball. It has everything to do with the fact they believe the wood bat game is pure baseball and the metal bat game is not.

My take on this is any player that reaches the level he is capable of attaining is a success in this game. Are we going to call a young man that works just as hard as anyone else a failure just because his God given ability will only allow him to go as far as the high school team? Im not. I am going to call that young man a success at the game of baseball. He took what God gave him and he made the absolute most of it.

Now there are failures. Guys that are given enough God given ability to achieve great things at the game but because they are lazy and or make stupid decisions in life they never reach their potential in the game. Now they may indeed reach the college level but if they fail at that level but have the God given ability to go higher but do not because they are lazy or make stupid decisions that would be failure to me.

Its not the level of the game that you reach that determines your success in this game. Its what you achieve based on your ability and what you do with that ability. jmho

Success in Baseball, as told to us by one of the greatest baseball legends of our times!

1. Nobody ever became a ballplayer by walking after a ball.

2. You will never become a .300 hitter unless you take the bat off your shoulder.

3. An outfielder who throws in back of a runner is locking the barn after the horse is stolen.

4. Keep your head up and you may not have to keep it down.

5. When you start to slide, slide. He who changes his mind may have to change a good leg for a bad one.

6. Do not alibi on bad hops. Anybody can field the good ones.

7. Always run them out. You never can tell.

8. Do not quit.

9. Do not fight too much with the umpires. You cannot expect them to be as perfect as you are.

10. A pitcher who hasn't control hasn't anything.


Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Spoken like a true umpire--- by the way I believe that your "assumption" is incorrect

???

Exactly what is spoken like a true umpire?

A. The analogy of doctors is that medicine is an activity populated by people performing at different levels as is baseball.

B. I don't have the time for a scientific sampling, but I believe here, there is as much if not more of an emphasis on college propsects as pro.

C. In fact, I more often see good arguments being made for high school players going the college route than accepting a pro contract.

D. I guess I don't frequent sites that speak primarily about going pro, but I would guess those are populated more by fan-boys than parents and coaches.

E. It's a different audience.

Huh? I thought this was aobut HS baseball?

Let's face it, whatever level a player is at today, the next level is success. Eventually you look back and if you worked hard enough to get all you possibly could out of your given talent then you were a success.

My brother used his D1 level baseball scholarship to get an education, which he has put to good use and is very successful.

I used the GI Bill to accomplish the same thing, my brother probably had more fun.

Success is baseball is loving to play right up to the day that someone says you cannot play anymore. Then you spend the rest of your life fondly remembering your success.

Justbaseball,
* First LL hit
--Too long ago, don't remember.
Making LL majors
--That was a big deal back then.
* Making the LL all star team
--I was a lot more excited about getting to wear the "all-star" windbreaker to school.
* Making your HS team
--Took it for granted.
* Making your HS varsity team
--Took it for granted.
* Playing beyond HS
--Took a little effort and a bit of luck being 16 at the time.

At the time:
1. Getting the win vs. an independent league team.
2. Getting the Lachemann brothers to pay attention while I was throwing a pen. (Had to just throw as hard as I could.)

Success, like a will, is a relative thing.

I find it interesting the way a thread changes direction---I started out by pointing out how many sites speak of players making the list becua of being drafted---not too many sites look at the players and highlight the players who are headed to college---

Success is going as far as skills, motivation and fortune will take the player. For some it's LL all-stars. For others it's Cooperstown. For many it's somewhere in between. If a player can look back at his baseball experience fondly it was a success.

I remember thinking in college the game owned me and I didn't have much free time. When asked if I would do it again I responded, "Absolutely! Besides what would I do with all that free time?" Baseball was a success due to the fun I had playing, the friends I made and the memories I share with those friends from LL though college.

Great moment hearing coach doing radio interview with opposing team's announcer in college:

"Bill Smith is our catcher. He's a soph this year. He was a soph last year. If he doesn't pick up his grades he'll be a soph next year."

I just about fell over laughing. Bill wasn't back the following year. Bill was a catcher with a cannon. He was recruited as a quarterback. He was dumber than a bag of rocks. He couldn't learn the playbook. The QB who blew by him on the depth chart played more than ten years in the NFL.

You don't remember the triple up the gap. You remember the fun moments like above.

My baseball success is pretty limited but a few things stand out.
1.Got to play in the championship game (city title) in LL.
2.Seeing a young man I dismissed from my team (later reinstated after he came to me an apologized) five years later become the valedictorian of his high school. I would like to think I had something to do with that.
3.Helping my son realize his dream of playing college baseball.
4.Watching a bunch of kids I coached over the years win a state championship this year. Would have been better if they could have pulled if off last year when my son was there but still great to see.
Not too much personal success but very enjoyable just the same.

The definition of success is relative. I LOVE the game of baseball. I played until HS and decided track was a better outlet. I threw relief innings in HS and semi-pro ball. I was living the livida loca at that level. I also enjoyed my 4:22 mile.

My son (LHP Jr. 17U) is currently participating in a "work-out" with others. He throws 88-90 on a good day. On a bad day, he's 81-83.

The point is that his concept of success is different than mine. I get off throwing BP to Little Leaguers. Jr. gets off sawing off CC wood bats.

If you play, play for the love of it. It doesn't matter what level you achieve. In my mind, baseball success can be defined by the following statement; "Can I sit in the bleachers when I'm done, second guess the pitch calling, question the baserunning, pitching changes, defensive alignments, etc. and still enjoy the game?"

If you can do all that, I would say you've achieved "success in the game".

JMoff,
Sent you a PM, don't want to hijack a good thread.

As long as my son goes out, has fun and continues to enjoy playing the game I consider it a success.

I don't care if he makes it to college or the pros. I have never considered that a marker of success. As long as he has fun and competes at as high a level as he can I am happy.

quote:

Its not the level of the game that you reach that determines your success in this game. Its what you achieve based on your ability and what you do with that ability. jmho

If we are "self-actualizing" about our experiences in baseball or those of our sons, then certainly one has to agree with Coach May. Just having learned and experienced the game at any level should be reflected upon by the individual as a "feel good" experience. After all, today's society certainly values everyone feeling good about everything in their lives.

However, from another more analytical perspective; what am I looking for in the Resume of a successful Baseball player? Could it differ if I'm hiring? If I'm looking for a Travel Team for my budding teenage player to join that will help prepare him to make his High School team, will I be happy with a Coach that "feels great" about his Little League experience or will I expect more? Likewise, will the Athletic Director at our High School be content with a new Head Coach applicant that "competed at the High School level" or will he feel it necessary to select the "more experienced" and more successful, to date, Coach with College playing experience? I haven't experienced any College Head Coaches that didn't play at the College level. Are there any Professional Head Coaches with only high school or College playing experience?

Perhaps if I'm looking at the resume, rather than reflecting on what feels good, there is a level of achievement to consider one successful...... even if we aren't hiring. Was that what TR was asking?

To me; that would be a minimum of College experience knowing how difficult it is to get to that level. Any one who has Pro experience was probably pretty gifted and certainly hard working and thus successful. Those that reached the pinnacle, The MLB, were wildly successful.

Success is not an ultimate goal, because success is not static. It is fluid. A player who has been successful in the past, or successful today, can only guarantee through hard work success in the future.

A player is born with limited God given ability. He works his butt off to become the absolute best player he could possibly be. This allows him to achieve the absolute most he could in the game. That may mean he makes his hs baseball team but never plays past hs. Prime would you call this success or failure? I would certainly call it baseball success for this player.

A player is born with a lot of God given ability. He does not work hard. He squanders the opportunity to reach his full potential at the game. He flames out in the minors. Now would you call this baseball success or failure? I would call it failure.

One reached a higher place in the game. So he should be called more of a success in the game. Not in my book.

Success in this game is about reaching the level of play your potential ability along with your work ethic will allow. I dont think you can call a kid with tremendous God given ability who fails to reach his full potential a feel good experience. No more than you can call a kid who reaches his full potential in this game a failure simply because he was not born with enough God given ability to play past the level of his peers that were.

I would think that success in baseball is no different than in any other aspect of life... there are many levels/layers of success to be achieved. For some, success might mean making a high school team, for others... making it to the show.

It all depends on your abilities,what you believe you can achieve and the effort given during the quest.

“Success means having the courage, the determination, and the will to become the person you believe you were meant to be” ~ George Sheehan

As to Trhit's question... I would think that any player making it to play ball at the college level would be considered a success. A very small percentage make that level so if you can ring that bell, you are successful in my book... just some are more successful than others.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Continually, as described on this site and other forum boards, pro ball is used as a so-called success barometer.

Why is making it in college ball not used as a success barometer?

I think we all have different ambitions and for some, the ability to play a game and make a living at it is a strong motivator. Most kids dream of playing a professional sport even though most will never even play in college(at any level). Other kids are driven and will not dream, but rather set a goal and try to do everything to achieve it.

As to the more obvious reasons, money is a huge motivator.
These guys are all overpaid for what they contribute to society. Does Lebron James really deserve to make enough money in one year that a nurse needs to work a lifetime for? So the lure of outrageous amounts of money is a big reason.

To me as a parent I'd be very happy to see my son get into a top academic college based on his baseball abilities. While a very good student he is not Harvard material. So if baseball can open that type of door for him, I'd be satisfied. He has a pretty good head on his shoulders and has a career goal beyond baseball, but like everyone else he would also like to develop into a player worthy of playing at the pro level. For him, it would not be about the money, but rather the love of the game. I'd bet he would play for enough to get by and save a little.

Anyway, it should come as no surprise that the highest achievement in any discipline is the epitome of success. The goes for business being a CEO, politics being the President/Governor, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Vector:
I'd bet he would play for enough to get by and save a little.

With a starting salary of about 1100 a month, I'll bet most likely he would too.

My son's first pro check, after the expenses and deductions, was $298 for two weeks. He made a copy of it and told me it will be the best $298 he will ever receive. I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
My son's first pro check, after the expenses and deductions, was $298 for two weeks. He made a copy of it and told me it will be the best $298 he will ever receive. I agree.

That is a kid who loves the game.

quote:

What is baseball success?
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hi my self peter rose i live in NY.....- I just read The College Baseball Action Plan and, as a former college head coach I highly recommend it to any family considering college baseball. The Napolean Hill quote it contains says it very well: “The world has a habit of making room for the person whose action show he knows where he’s going.”.............i wanna share the sort poem to White Sox chairman Jerry
Reinsdorf.....................:

As I sit at home this off-season,
I wonder what the hell is the reason,
Why the club wants to be unfair,
Underpaying a player who can produce and care.
Reinsdorf could roll with the punches and promptly
responded with some rhymes of his own.

I hope you are a really good pitcher,
Because as a poet you will never get richer;
If you are not pitching this year,
I will be sad but won't fear;
Though you may be one of the best,
There's always someone among the rest.


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Baseball success is playing with passion, and skills (god-given and learned) beyond what you thought was possible.

.
Through one looking glass...Baseball is simply means to an end...a classroom for learning life lessons...for connection with others...for full immersion in a values(hard work/perserverence/faith/brotherhood...)based culture...to prove to us that it does indeed exist and that we can built in other venues...that it matters ...

The problem with defining "success" is that we treat baseball the same way we do life...far too often we judge worth of experience by statistical and external means: Levels...title...brand...affiliations...bank accounts...cars...neighborhoods..vacations.

IMO, What happens inside is far more important. By this judge you cannot know the level of success without knowing the person. By this judge players who played one year in LL may be a huge success if they learned the lessons that gave them a different perspective. And players who made it to MLB may be a huge failure if they have learned nothing that makes them better human beings...and haven't used that knowledge to make the world a better place and those around them better human beings.

44
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As stated a few times in this topic, SUCCESS is relative.

Success at any level is being able to participate with the skills and acumen required.

High schoolers' measures of success are being drafted by an MLB club and/or being accepted by a college on a scholarship to play baseball.

Success in anything is reaching the level of your competency and desire.

Unlike the 'Peter Principle' in other endeavors where one considers success as reaching the level of their incompetency.