What is delusional?

When you enter a room always try and identify the sucker. If you can't find one, it's you. 

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...in my experience of dragging my 7 and 8 year old around the country year round to multiple t-ball world series (you know, for the MLB/D1 scouting) I have never met one delusional parent.

Delusional: spending >$15K on baseball (travel, trainers, etc.) and son doesn't make JV.

Thinking that the way your kid did it is the only way for others to be successful. 

Thinking that no kid who comes behind your kid will ever be as great as he is/was.

joemktg posted:

Delusional: spending >$15K on baseball (travel, trainers, etc.) and son doesn't make JV.

Do you mean total or in one year.  Cause one year I don't know anyone who does that. If you mean total maybe it's because it's fun?  Not everyone does it just for the future. As I have said I think it helps make you better but that is not the sole reason to play. Isn't everyone always saying to just have fun and enjoy the ride?

joemktg posted:

Delusional: spending >$15K on baseball (travel, trainers, etc.) and son doesn't make JV.

..or worse, think that spending the $$ and participating in travel ball is an entitlement ticket or assurance that player should make JV, V, start, etc.  Doesn't that HS coach realize?....

cabbagedad posted:

joemktg posted:

Delusional: spending >$15K on baseball (travel, trainers, etc.) and son doesn't make JV.

..or worse, think that spending the $$ and participating in travel ball is an entitlement ticket or assurance that player should make JV, V, start, etc.  Doesn't that HS coach realize?....

Thinking that anything is guaranteed to your kid or feeling that your kid is entitled to anything along the way is delusional. 

The parents who spend a lot of money thinking talent can be purchased. 

The parents who think their 9u kid is going to play D1 ball because he's on the ground floor of program whose 17/18u players all go D1.

The parents who think their kid is being recruited by (pick your program) because he was invited to one of their events after filling out the online recruiting firm.

The father of a preteen masher with legendary home runs who nicknames his son Meal Ticket while ignoring hit's hitting his homers to he opposite field swing like a rusty gate. He also ignores he's 5'4 and mom is 5' while the kid is 5'8" at twelve. (Note: the kid was 5'8" in high school when he was cut from the program).

The parents who put their twelve and thirteen year old boys through expensive agility training before they hit puberty and grew.

The parents who can't see their 10yo stud is now an ordinary twelve year old player.

The parents who say their 10yo son will attend whatever private school with good baseball offers the biggest scholarship. Note: The parents paid full cost to send their kid to a very small classisication private high school with a bad baseball program so he could play.

The parents who labels four 9u players the Fab Four. Of course his kid was one of them. He was one of the Fab Cut in middle school. He was well schooled in baseball at age nine. Everyone caught him from behind.

The parents who pay for private hitting lessons with the varsity coach starting when their kid is nine thinking it will influence his roster decision when the kid gets to high school.

There are the ones i came up with without thinking back too hard. 

I've met one!  Oh, and he's a good one.  If you guys have ever seen the "radar gun" episode of Hardcore Pawn you know who I'm talking about.  His son was a year younger than mine....switched travel teams every year (more than likely because of dad) and isn't going to play in college.  He could have...he was a talented kid....but his dad screwed him up so bad that he's probably lucky he finished his senior year in HS as a starter.  Arm issues, hitting issues, etc, etc.   Great kid...I took him to play with us any chance I got....sad to see him end up like he did.  Thanks dad!! 

I have run across some delusional parents.  Even had one dad blame us for ruining his sons chance for a baseball career.  He wasn't talking about HS baseball. But there were very few HS teams where his son could have played. He said before we saw him his son was getting letters from top DI colleges.  My first thought was that none of those colleges had ever seen him.

While I think it is normal for parents to slightly over estimate their sons true ability.  I don't see that as being delusional. In fact, sometimes it turns out they were right.  And for those parents that have exceptionally talented sons, I actually think they are quite often the quietest and least delusional.

I don't think it has much to do with how much money they spend.  More about what they think that money entitles them to.  Lots of people spend lots of money just to have fun and to have memories.  Is someone delusional if they spend a pile of money to take their family to a World Series game or the Super Bowl?

When you can't realize that a sport or sports is ruining the relationship between you and your child and they would rather quit than deal will your craziness.

When your kid becomes your secret or even not so secret retirement plan. 

When you think that your desire can get your kid to the next level. 

When you are losing friends or creating enemies over youth sports?

When it's more about you (the adult) than the kid. 

2020dad posted:

 How do you define delusional?

Delusional is having an unrealistic belief that is not supported by good evidence or is contrary to the evidence.  I feel RJM's post just above shows good examples how it manifests.  

Delusional is the taking the stories of a few crazies (even when it's third hand chat board anecdotal hearsay) and labeling the families of the 30,000 kids who play "travel ball" each weekend as nuts.  And same with the critics of rec ball.  To each his own

I get the feeling a lot of the posts giving advice on this board is group think parroting earlier posters, and not based on actual experiences.  At least not recent experiences.

I think Truman's post above on good evidence, if mixed with common sense, is the right frame to read advice from any anonymous chat board.  The main takeaway is to get you to think on your own.

I miss TPM.  Is she on vacation?

Gotta be careful about "common sense" because it may not be all that commonly accurate.    

Like common sense says two things can't be at two different places at the same time, yet quantum mechanics has shown that electrons can do just that.    Sometime it seems some players are like these electrons.   

I am here Go44, where have you been?    

I agree with Trumans comments on what RJM posted. I dont think most of you will see much of this until HS.  Thats when the crazies come out.

Theres a famous story here about a dad that I know who offered to reconfigure the HS field before is son got there. He said he wanted it where the wind was blowing out so his son could hit more HRs.  It wasnt about the team, it was about his son.  The player was pretty good, but after attending 2 private HS and trying to buy his sons scholarship, he ended at a mid D1. He finally transfered to his dream school but was hurt most of his college career.  I attribute it to 365 dayss a yearband multiple teams.

The dad was a nice guy but he tried to buy his sons coaches affection. This is delusional.

This is only one of many I know.

2020dad posted:

joemktg posted:

Delusional: spending >$15K on baseball (travel, trainers, etc.) and son doesn't make JV.

Do you mean total or in one year.  Cause one year I don't know anyone who does that. If you mean total maybe it's because it's fun?  Not everyone does it just for the future. As I have said I think it helps make you better but that is not the sole reason to play. Isn't everyone always saying to just have fun and enjoy the ride?

Its one thing if you have the money to blow, but I am pretty sure parents spend more than they should or have to.

It goes back to that feeling that if your son doesnt go play with X team or attend showcase after showcase their player will lose their scholarship to another player. Showcases serve a valuable purpose but dont spend if you dont have it, you need that money for college.

This early recruiting causes much anxiety in many folks, bottom line most arent early commit players to begin with.

Well, I have met some delusional parents.

One guy moved his 11 year old to catcher because, as we all know, "It's the fastest way to the Big Leagues." Yes, he thought his kid had MLB potential as an 11 year old. Ended up as a very good HS pitcher until he needed TJ surgery. Committed to a JUCO last year but didn't end up on the spring roster.

Another guy had baseball cards made up of his 9 year old son and handed them out to friends and family. And he told everyone he gave them to, "Hold on to this, because it will be valuable when he is in the major leagues." He wasn't kidding when he did this. Kid was a tiny, curve ball pitcher with decent velocity for his size. Kid finally grew a little and was a good high school pitcher and is now at a D2, but didn't get much work as a freshman.

And yet another guy in my area told the Middle School coach that his son would be coming to school there and was going to be a great addition to his program. When the coach asked where his son was currently playing, the guy told him that his kid was in tee ball. I'll give the guy credit, he didn't say his tee baller would be a Pro, but his kid was one of the best middle schoolers I've seen.  

Sorry I don't get spending thousands of dollars on HS travel for just fun.Kid can play locally in Summer for fun, and save money for college. Son was on try out travel team and 90% expressed interest in playing at next level-or so parents said. Only about 30% did. More had the talent but if it wasn't for D1 they were not interested.

 You had parents taking time off work to travel out of state. Younger siblings were staying w neighbors or grandparents. Summer vacations were nonexistent. What's so fun w all that. Kid could have played HS team, local summer team. It's really tough to understand when you see families go into debt for a sport. But that's just my opinion. Many say it's for fun, but deep down they were hoping kid gets discovered at PG tourn, or other places. I've seen too many parents more into it than the players. 

Delusional is sending son to IMG academy when he sat bench on JV and didn't make V.  That $70,000 could have been spent on college or used for retirement. 

But to each his own. You asked, I gave my two cents.

I guess maybe I am lucky or I don't pay enough attention to people!  I just don't run into these folks. The most delusional guy I remember was from when I was coaching freshman baseball long ago. Thought his kid was going to be drafted someday. We platooned him at first base. Kid was drafted by the Dodgers!  Dad was right. We didn't see it.  We were wrong. He went to a small D2 so the colleges didn't see it either in fairness. And to the kids credit he worked and worked to get better each year. 

2020dad posted:

I guess maybe I am lucky or I don't pay enough attention to people!  I just don't run into these folks. The most delusional guy I remember was from when I was coaching freshman baseball long ago. Thought his kid was going to be drafted someday. We platooned him at first base. Kid was drafted by the Dodgers!  Dad was right. We didn't see it.  We were wrong. He went to a small D2 so the colleges didn't see it either in fairness. And to the kids credit he worked and worked to get better each year. 

I know you hate  this but things have changed coach. Kids are becoming millionares at 17,18.  Players are signing for incredible amounts ofmoneyeven before free agency. That tends to make people crazy.

And yes l know of folks who felt this would benefit them just as much as their player. Sad, but true.

playball2011 posted:

Sorry I don't get spending thousands of dollars on HS travel for just fun.Kid can play locally in Summer for fun, and save money for college. Son was on try out travel team and 90% expressed interest in playing at next level-or so parents said. Only about 30% did. More had the talent but if it wasn't for D1 they were not interested.

 You had parents taking time off work to travel out of state. Younger siblings were staying w neighbors or grandparents. Summer vacations were nonexistent. What's so fun w all that. Kid could have played HS team, local summer team. It's really tough to understand when you see families go into debt for a sport. But that's just my opinion. Many say it's for fun, but deep down they were hoping kid gets discovered at PG tourn, or other places. I've seen too many parents more into it than the players. 

Delusional is sending son to IMG academy when he sat bench on JV and didn't make V.  That $70,000 could have been spent on college or used for retirement. 

But to each his own. You asked, I gave my two cents.

I agree with you. These are not the values that I have taught my children.  Hard work and due diligence pays off, you dont have to spend lots of money to have fun.  

I know of a few families who follow that rule and their children are spoiled brats.  

TPM posted:

2020dad posted:

I guess maybe I am lucky or I don't pay enough attention to people!  I just don't run into these folks. The most delusional guy I remember was from when I was coaching freshman baseball long ago. Thought his kid was going to be drafted someday. We platooned him at first base. Kid was drafted by the Dodgers!  Dad was right. We didn't see it.  We were wrong. He went to a small D2 so the colleges didn't see it either in fairness. And to the kids credit he worked and worked to get better each year. 

I know you hate  this but things have changed coach. Kids are becoming millionares at 17,18.  Players are signing for incredible amounts ofmoneyeven before free agency. That tends to make people crazy.

And yes l know of folks who felt this would benefit them just as much as their player. Sad, but true.

TPM - I totally agree with you here. The super-sized contracts have made and will continue to make some folks crazy. 

I know a guy who is really hard on his youngest son. He's said on more than one occasion that "this is HIS last shot" because his older boys didn't make it. 

You will BURN-OUT if you play too much rec ball! All of my players could play multiple positions, hit, and most could pitch as well. To hang around town and beat the local clubs by 3 touchdowns was not fun for us, and by the looks of the other teams they weren't having a blast either. Unless I'm leaving one out we played in 17 states, some of these trips were mini vacations and others were huge vacations. Water rafting, beach, mountains, go carts, Disney world, jumping off cliffs, beach,  MLB games, College games, Team USA games, six flags, beach, Sea world, touring many many campuses, The Alamo, Minor league games(my favorite), and did I mention we made it over to the beach? Soooooo......tell me again about how hard it is to have fun playing travel ball with a family.

You can spot those parents when their kid has four 2016 bbcor bats, 3 wood bats, $300 pitching glove, $300 fielding glove, $300 first base mitt(last played 1st two years ago) and two pairs of Oakley's. If you have a bad game blame your equipment and switch bats! 

What is delusional?  Getting a second piece of pie thinking I will work out extra tomorrow.

Go44dad posted:

What is delusional?  Getting a second piece of pie thinking I will work out extra tomorrow.

Hey dude - Leave me out of this please! 

For the most part, using the true definition of delusional, this one is remarkably obvious, in my experience.

There are 4 which stand out:

1.) Anything our son's do before they have competed for at least one full year on a 60-90 diamond is meaningful in the game of baseball beyond ages 13-14;

2.) Our son loves the game...before he has ever encountered real failure and worked through real failure, especially  on a 60-90 diamond;

3.) It is someone else who is at fault for our son "failing"-usually a HS or college coach or coaching staff;

4.) Overestimating how much our son's love the game and/or how hard they work-remarkably true at the HS and  college level.

I coached a kid in 9U Rec ball Fall ball whose mom told me, in all seriousness, that her son was going to play in the majors one day. He wasn't even the best kid on the fall ball team. Fast forward six years and the kid is ranked in the top 25 in his class in California by PG . . . so, who knows? Maybe she wasn't delusional. Or maybe she was.

To me, what matters is that I'm not delusional. It's OK with me if other people are delusional.

Thinking it was okay to take a round of BP off of the pitching machine with some other washed up dads during halftime of the Super Bowl. Totally delusional...and painful over the next couple of weeks.  :-/

I think my kid is delusional. At dinner tonight he was talking about a Cubs v sox crosstown World Series. 

I think many parents slightly overestimate their kids ability and the overrate the chance of maximizing talent with hard work and experience but I think super delusional parents who mistake their pudgy below average kid for an mlb talent are actually quite rare. 

Most parents of truly bad kids know that their kids is bad,  most of the "delusional parents" kids are at least slightly above average to fringy college material. 

playball2011 posted:

Sorry I don't get spending thousands of dollars on HS travel for just fun.Kid can play locally in Summer for fun, and save money for college. Son was on try out travel team and 90% expressed interest in playing at next level-or so parents said. Only about 30% did. More had the talent but if it wasn't for D1 they were not interested.

 You had parents taking time off work to travel out of state. Younger siblings were staying w neighbors or grandparents. Summer vacations were nonexistent. What's so fun w all that. Kid could have played HS team, local summer team. It's really tough to understand when you see families go into debt for a sport. But that's just my opinion. Many say it's for fun, but deep down they were hoping kid gets discovered at PG tourn, or other places. I've seen too many parents more into it than the players. 

Delusional is sending son to IMG academy when he sat bench on JV and didn't make V.  That $70,000 could have been spent on college or used for retirement. 

But to each his own. You asked, I gave my two cents.

Last week or so was the first time I ever heard of this $70000 thing. Still can't believe that's real. I agree whole heartedly that's way over the top. But then again if a guy is a billionaire and that money was a drop in the bucket...  Who am I to say how he spends his billions?  But yes for any normal person that seems insane. However for us we would rather watch our kids perform than take any other kind of vacation. And they are like mini vacations. Last one was fairly close to where grandma and grandpa live. We stayed with them and kids got to spend some time. They live over three hours away so not a lot of time with them. One before that was where my sister has a time share. They came up with us for the weekend and spent some time. We camp sometimes which we love. Same for the swimmer. This coming weekend he will be swimming near grandma and grandpa's. It's a value judgement. We love our lifestyle. My son has not gone to any showcases and yes they are out there for as low as 2022's. We are not signed up for any and have no plans at this time. Have not played in a PG event. Have no plans to be 'discovered' by PG. and while we admittedly don't play the big national tournaments I have yet to see a scout at a 14u game except one and he had a kid on one of the teams. There are those like us who just see our kid having a blast and do it for them. $2000 is a lot of money for us but what is rec ball these days?  $500?  So it's really $1500 for my kid to have a blast. What do vacations cost?  I think we're quite happy with what we are doing. And no we nor any of his teammates are secretly hoping to be discovered at 14. 

No one has to justify what you do or enjoy, that's you business.

You threw something  out there and we responded. Yes, there are delusional folks out there, has been and always we be.  Just because one spends money, doesn't make them delusional, but some reasons why they do probably makes them so to most of us.

Dominik85 posted:

I think many parents slightly overestimate their kids ability and the overrate the chance of maximizing talent with hard work and experience but I think super delusional parents who mistake their pudgy below average kid for an mlb talent are actually quite rare. 

Most parents of truly bad kids know that their kids is bad,  most of the "delusional parents" kids are at least slightly above average to fringy college material. 

I think you are on the right track here Dom. Mostly because we seem to agree of course!  The truly delusional are quit rare. Next I would like you to define above average?  That also means different things to different people. Depends on the pool you are comparing to. If you are using the pool of let's say the five top travel teams in your state. Or maybe 25 for the ginormous stTes like CA, above average would still be really good. If you mean of all kids who play any level of baseball at a given age above average is going nowhere fast. I consider my son to be average. But only in respect to those around him. In the general population of baseball players he would be a star. So if I am hoping and praying he can play at a nice level am I delusional?  Or am I hopeful?  As a parent I don't want to flat out tell my kid he can not reach his dream no matter how hard he works. I am on record here saying I think it is a longshot at best. But he doesn't read this. I am not going to advertise that and make him feel I don't have faith in him. So is it delusion?  Or is it encouraging?  Also for the record I don't go about telling people he is going to be power 5 someday. But I also refuse to say he won't in some forum he would hear it. I like the tone of your post. I think we are getting somewhere towards an understanding. And I think your post is a respectful one. Thanks for the input!

This is not meant to be disrespectful but Dominick bio says he lives in Europe. 

I am not sure how he could actually relate to this issue. 

Most players are average until they reach HS, that's where the separation begins.  

Hopefully is quite different than delusional, no one said anything about not being hopeful.

In my experience the delusion comes from parents / players not understanding how good the next level players truly are.  They just haven't been exposed to that level of talent for whatever reason and they don't understand their big fish in a small bowl is really a small fish in the big bowl.  The school I was head coach at in KY was in culture shock when I took over and we played the big boys in the area.  I didn't schedule the K-12 school with a grand total of 300 kids 5 times to get wins.  We got beat pretty bad at first but the exposure helped change mindsets about getting better.  Still some delusions out there but once you see talent you tend to realize where your son is compared to it.

I think i've met one or two along the way. Probably not as delusional as over-zealous about their kid's ability. We love our kids. TBH, i think some have been coaches at the younger levels. This behaviour is everywhere, people want to shout from the rooftops about their kids in all sports/activities. Once, many years ago i helped "coach" a team. I think it was 10U. After losing a game to one of the best teams in the area and nationally i recall that while packing up to head home ...my comment about having a bunch of "mama's boys" on the team who were beaten before we stepped on the field. Yeah, that didn't go over well with a few moms....one was delusional.

On the flip side, I really enjoy talking with the families of the kids who really ARE great and admire their humility. I was able to be in the booth in HS with a guy who's kid is the real deal and got PAID and is now in minors in 1st year. I really enjoyed listening to him not talk about his kid and talk about others. Humility is a funny thing. Once you think you've got it, you've lost it

Ask and you shall receive!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dc-KhPS9qM (“6 Year old baseball ‘Phenom’”)

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpzhT38oALQ  (“8th grade ‘phenom’ playing Varsity/JV Baseball- CRUSHES IT!!” /Hits a single LOL/)

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hNdwThxuKM (“10yrs old baseball ‘phenom’ blasting a homerun over a 250ft fence”) 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ftplx6p2_Y (“10yr Baseball ‘Phenom’ Joseph Smokin Jo Eichelberger”)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aar94BEi0JQ   (Big League Prep Presents Mahki MacDonald 11 Yr Old Future Big Leaguer.)  / AHEM, What?/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw7UWXLJVds  (Note this is a “9 yo select wooden bat tournament.”)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCm4bzfQCbQ  Here’s “Little Bryce Harper”)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opi-hMro2lo  (Oh, look!  Here’s another “Little Bryce Harper.”)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlSOrRJpLW0 (“Little Mike Trout”)

This is literally 2-3 minutes worth of research on youtube.  This is just a minuscule sampling of what is out there.

I was a 3rd generation scholarship athlete so I had to bite my tongue when parents at the 8U level lectured me on the ins and outs of landing a scholarship, feeling justified because their kid was better than mine at that moment.  Its only human to indulge in after the fact "I told you so", but not really productive.

There is another type of delusion that bothers me, though.  In my local area I have seen a number of cases where a kid chases glory at the best baseball/football/basketball program that he can land at, while ignoring the academic side of things.  In the worst case that I can remember a kid turned down the chance to go the Ivy League to go to a lower tier D1 school.  When I looked up the school rankings the school he turned down was in the top ten in the country, and the one he went to was in the 570s.