What message does this send?

quote:

I am having some trouble finding a good message for everyone who is trying to stay clean. I am having trouble determining how or if this signing is good for baseball, at any level.

infielddad - these are painful questions. There is no good message. The Indians have a fine young team and this clearly diminishes that

I did not buy his story for one minute. What is clear is that Bud Selig is not Roger Gedell. In my mind, Byrd needs to be set free (no pun intended) and all the rest of the owners need to collude and not offer him a contract either. More names were announced today btw including the former Giant great Matt Williams who ironically played here in Cleveland.

Interesting. The message I got is that MLB has yet to figure out how to deal with their public relations nightmare. On the same day that we hear that Matt Williams was a steroid user, we hear that it's business as usual for the Tribe, despite the fact that they haven't yet publicly explained why their #4 starter was buying HGH from a dentist. I wonder if Bud Selig is back in bed at his mommie's house right now ******* his thumb.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Coincidentally, his prescriptions, to the extent known, stopped when HGH became a banned substance.

I don't know the specifics of this particular situation but based on this statement alone, I'd have a hard time condemning the guy. He followed the rules. I'm not suggesting his prescription was legitimate....I don't know him, I don't know if it was or not. But I think it was TRHit (???) who made a great suggestion; what happened in the past is in the past. Let it go. If anybody violates the steroid rules (or any others) going forward, suspend then ban them.

"the message" makes perfect sense to Tribe "GM of the year" Mark Shapiro ... pick up Byrd's option!

Byrd's investigation hasn't concluded (except here ) ...

IF MLB finds he's in trouble -
THEN ya void the contract,
THEN ya cut him loose,
THEN don't pay him,
THEN throw him under the bus

only a knucklehead would cut him loose, throw him under the bus, THEN find out he's innocent

jmo, but a good one

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:


only a knucklehead would cut him loose, throw him under the bus, THEN find out he's innocent

jmo, but a good one

Agreed. Also did these players obtain HGH during a time it was on the banned list or not?

spizzlepop, the article this morning said Matt Williams also purchased HGH, but did not mention steroids. He admitted buying about $11,000 worth for a serious ankle injury. It was recommended to help the healing process. Rx. came from a ...dentist in Fla.
Beezer, where do we get any confidence that HGH use isn't ongoing to this day? For Byrd to know his HGH use was permissable, he need to provide prior disclosure of the need and prescription, which he did not.
My son is trying to rehab and all this says to me is that using a dentist in Fla to prescribe HGH is fine, unless you get caught. Even if you get caught, if you have that dental Rx. what is the worst that can happen? Nothing so far it seems.
I come down with spizzle. MLB and Bud have serious PR and credibility issues on whether they take drug use seriously or whether the only thing that matters is $$$$$.
This contract seems to be 7,500,000 votes for $$$$$$.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Beezer, where do we get any confidence that HGH use isn't ongoing to this day? For Byrd to know his HGH use was permissable, he need to provide prior disclosure of the need and prescription, which he did not.

I'm not saying it's not being used today (probably is). What I am saying is that in this particular case, he was using a prescribed medication for whatever reason that was then banned at which point he stopped. Had he continued using it after it was banned, he's guilty. Since he obtained it legally and ceased using it, I don't think he's guilty. Just my $.02.

Like bee and others have suggested, until it's known a player is guilty, you can't NOT sign them. They're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.

And infielddad, I'm not arguing with you. I agree there's a huge problem. But I don't see how they can go back in time and charge alleged users. I say forget the past, lay down the law and ban violators.

Otherwise it will come to seeing who floats and who sinks!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
There is no good message. The Indians have a fine young team and this clearly diminishes that.

I would wait for the entire list before singling out any franchise. I would bet they all had users, which would "diminish" all of them. I wonder if the list of non-users is shorter.

Baseball only can punish Byrd or any other player that used steroids or HGH, if they did it after 2005. Justice, is who may persecute them for violate the law, and for get the drugs illegally. So, the Indians did nothing wrong picking Byrd option, because he is not guilty yet, if he is proved guilty later on, the contract will be voided.

I wouldn't argue that Byrd is a bad sign, unless you're concerned with your public image. Pretty similar situation to last years signing of Bonds by the Giants, except that Byrd is a "likeable guy" and he's not a threat to any major pitching records. It's odd to me, but people that stood in line to lynch Bonds are now lining up in Byrd's defense.
My hunch is MLB will ultimately take a bigger PR hit than the Tribe for this, but love for the game will stay strong.
IFDad- The Chron cited Williams buying testosterone cypionate, nandrolone, clomiphene, and Novarel in addition to GH.

Beezer,
Understand completely where you are coming from on the issue. I think there are about as many thoughts on the issue as there are posters. I think your views are just as valid as anything I might have to offer.
With that said, I do have very visceral reaction when I read this type of stuff while at the same time look at what my son has experienced, without looking for shortcuts and with some obstacles thrown in along the way.
It is pretty interesting how the NFL has dealt with Vick, before his plea, with Tank Johnson and the guy with the Titans. They aren't playing and none were convicted of anything at the time they were suspended.
This morning we read that HGH was being shipped to the Oakland Coliseum where it seemingly was being delivered to the A's player who spent thousands of dollars on it.
It might be the only way to deal with everything that went on in the past is to take a strong stand going forward.
So where are the MLB owners and Bud?
Working hard to keep teams from exceeding slot money next June's draft?

Beezer,
If it was illegal and the statute of limitations hasn't been reached then it is up to the courts to prosecute them.

If it was illegal or against the rules of baseball at the time then it is up to MLB to take action.

If it was legal and not against the rules of baseball at the time then there's nothing that MLB can or should do other than keep a closer eye on them.

Byrd's explanation was a bit fishy but as far as I can tell he didn't break the law or the rules of MLB other than not getting a waiver. If there's a penalty for not getting the waiver then he should receive whatever punishment there is for that. I don't think the Indians have any obligation to release him.

quote:

Originally posted by spizzlepop:
IFDad- The Chron cited Williams buying testosterone cypionate, nandrolone, clomiphene, and Novarel in addition to GH.

spizzlepop, my bad. I thought that stuff was fuel for his car.

quote:

Originally posted by spizzlepop:
IFDad- The Chron cited Williams buying testosterone cypionate, nandrolone, clomiphene, and Novarel in addition to GH.

Shoot - all he needed was a few more drug combinations - and we could have ran him in the Kentucky Derby. LOL

And down the stretch they come!

Its Firefox leading - with Man'O'War coming up fast and Matt Williams on the outside back by 3 lengths.

Man'O'War is opening up and now is nose to nose with Firefox - BUT here comes Williams!!!

Its Williams and Firefox and Man'O'War neck to neck with 30 lengths to go.

Its Williams breaking away - with Firefox fading a bit and Man'O'War staying close.

Its Williams now - picking up steam - Firefox fading and Man'o"war giving it all he got.

But Williams is holding him off - Its Williams closing hard and its Williams by a length!!!!!!

Great race!

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
while at the same time look at what my son has experienced, without looking for shortcuts and with some obstacles thrown in along the way.

And as I fellow father I can assure you that if one of my children tip-toed a thin and dubious line, I'd be there to smack them back to the right side!

Beezer - I agree - but if they did it anyway - I would bet on them in an Exacta.

LOL

[/QUOTE]I thought that stuff was fuel for his car.[/QUOTE]
Nah, I heard Williams drives an economy car

quote:

Originally posted by Beezer:
And as I fellow father I can assure you that if one of my children tip-toed a thin and dubious line, I'd be there to smack them back to the right side!

And if our son's did it pretty much the right way, by following the advice of the orthopedist, not a dentist, and did it through hours upon hours of PT and strength and conditioning as opposed to HGH and the expenditure of thousands of dollars and faces the likelihood of being told they are to be released as opposed to being paid $7,500,000, what do we do then?

"Been running a little slow, I think I'll give my dentist a call now."

Next race in 10 minutes.

Its a fantasy race.

Its Barry Bonds vs. Secretariat.

Match race.

Make your bets before the windows close.

I'll take Secretariat to show.

Bonds to place.

Aaron & Ruth to "WIN" in the minds of baseball lifers!

peace
shep

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
It might be the only way to deal with everything that went on in the past is to take a strong stand going forward.

IFD,
I understand what Beezer is saying. How can you signal one person out when most likely there were a whole lot more doing the same thing.

The only way to move forwards is to stop thinking backwards. However, the players have protected their own for not allowing proper testing. What's the solution?

And we're off!!!

Its Bonds quickly out of the gate and off to a good start. Secretariat right on his tail. Its Bonds approaching the first turn and taking the inside rail. Bonds now a full 2 lengths ahead of Secretariat. Both horses running smoothly and without effort. Its Bonds picking up the pace now approaching the half mile.
Secretariat now 3 lengths behind but beginning to make his move.

Secretariat moving fast but now laboring a bit. Inching to 1 and 1/2 lengths around the half mile pole. Both setting a blistering pace at :48 seconds. But here comes Bonds. He is picking up the pace.

Bonds is blazing along! Now at the 3/4 pole - The first three-quarters of a mile in 1:09 and four fifths. Bonds is widening now!
He is moving like a TREMENDOUS machine! Bonds by 12, Bonds by 14 lengths on the turn! Secretariat is dropping back.

Bonds is all alone!

He's out there almost a 16th of a mile away from Secretariat! Bonds is in a position that seems impossible to catch. He's into the stretch. Bonds leads by 18 lengths.

They're in the stretch. Bonds has opened a 22-length lead! He is going to be the winner! Here comes Bonds to the wire. An unbelievable, an amazing performance! He hits the finish 25 lengths in front!

Barry Bonds - the winner!

You go Barry - You go!

LOL

ITS, By a Nose.

Bringing up the rear??

Is, ( Hoof Hearted ).

Say that 3 time's fast.

EH

Oh the excitement of it all! : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge5LCzxykpM

Woody - here is the real deal of the greatest athletic performance I have ever witnessed. IMO

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xoFquax2F-k

infielddad has a great point. how many young kids rehabed old school? when all they had to do was pony up to the bar a get a shot of hgh. i'm a little unsure of the message they sent to the young players. but from what i see mlb is like a shet sandwhich ,the more bread you've got the less shet you have to eat. it just ain't right.

Secretariat, was the most awesome horse.

One thing Different about Secretariat, then other Horses.
Most Horses will run Each quarter The Same Our slightly slower at the End.

Secretariat would run each Quarter mile Faster then the next,
Upon his death, they found that his Heart was twice as big as a normal race horse.
A tremendous Pump.
EH

And therein lies the cryptic message.

Heart - and character - are the ingredients of real heroes.

Not money and drugs.

You can take all the drugs in the world - and get your top-notch lawyers and public relations reps to talk your way out of it - and continue to make your millions - but that will never make you a true champion.

Only heart and character will make you a true champion.

IMO.

quote:

Cle Plain Dealer:

"MLB officials, as of Monday, had still not talked to Byrd about his use of HGH."

The report that came out says Jose Guillen, Matt Williams and Ismal Valdez all had their HGH perscriptions from the same Fl Dentist as Byrd.

Win, Place, and Show.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Heart - and character - are the ingredients of real heroes.

Not money and drugs.

You can take all the drugs in the world - and get your top-notch lawyers and public relations reps to talk your way out of it - and continue to make your millions - but that will never make you a true champion.

Only heart and character will make you a true champion.

IMO.

Brilliant opinion. In my opinion.

its,

Thanks for that link to the clip showing Secretariat's astonishing victory at the Belmont Stakes back in '73. That truly was an amazing display.

And the comments following the clip were interesting...


My first time seeing secretariat glide through the track. Simply amazing. Really, eye opening.



To this day, though, my favorite horse is Afleet Alex. However, seeing these three amazing races by Secretariat, I have to say he is bested. Secretariat, is the super freak horse. No other horse can compare. A genetic perfection on all levels. If there can be such a thing. Afleet Alex is great. Secretariat is out of this world.



"SECRETARIAT IS MOVING LIKE A TREMENDOUS MACHINE"...Great call from Dave Johnson...I still get goosebumps watching and listening to this call..Still has the record..No other horse has broken 2:25.



i feel bad for poor sham. he could have been a triple crown winner...but he was racing against one of the greatest race horses of all time...it was just bad timing for poor sham. both of those horses had huge hearts compared to the others...sham had an 18 lb heart, which is twice the size of a normal heart...and secretariat had a 22 lb heart which is the biggest on record.



And I agree with playbaseball concerning your last comment...indeed, brilliant opinion!

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:


only a knucklehead would cut him loose, throw him under the bus, THEN find out he's innocent

jmo, but a good one

Agreed. Also did these players obtain HGH during a time it was on the banned list or not?

According to this http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1 it was banned and any player found using since 1991 is subject to expulsion from the game unless he had a prescription and was using under the direct supervision of the team physician.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
It might be the only way to deal with everything that went on in the past is to take a strong stand going forward.

IFD,
I understand what Beezer is saying. How can you signal one person out when most likely there were a whole lot more doing the same thing.

The only way to move forwards is to stop thinking backwards. However, the players have protected their own for not allowing proper testing. What's the solution?

TPM, by now I think there are enough players to suggest the "one person" defense is questionable.
But my focus in starting this thread was not on Byrd.
My real question is what message are the Indians and MLB sending by this signing. It may be Bud and MLB are "helpless" in dealing with Byrd, Donald and the union.
But MLB can certainly, through it's governing rules and huge PR machine, send a strong message to it's member clubs, just like they do on that societal evil, the draft, where they "strongly encourage" "slot" money.
Since they have not even bothered to speak with Byrd, that sends the message.
Since they don't have a comment on this signing, that sends a message.
The NFL sent a strong message to it's players.
MLB and the Indians, IMO, are sending an equally strong and opposite message. The message is the use of performing enhancing drugs, is to be tolerated and even rewarded. It would appear the clear message of MLB and it's clubs is that the only thing that matters is $$$$$, not the integrity of the game or it's players, at least to this point.
Maybe things will change, but the silence is sure deafening.

I see no message being sent---Byrd can pitch and there are not many solid pitchers around---

infielddad,

Well put!