Does not anyone else find it interesting that the same RAG in SF has all the so-called info ?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Byrd can pitch and there are not many solid pitchers around---
That is what good dentistry can do for you. Just ask major league players like Byrd, Williams, Ankiel, Guillen, and Valdez.
quote:Does not anyone else find it interesting that the same RAG in SF has all the so-called info ?
Yes TR, I find it very interesting. The Chronicle writers (same guys that wrote the Bonds book) seem to have a source deep inside MLB and closely connected to the Mitchell investigation. Since Deep Throat and Curveball have already been taken, I wonder what they call him? Root Canal? Uncle Charlie? Wrinkles? FerNANDRO? HolyCow? Sellout? How 'bout SecretBuddy or Beerman?
The MLB post-season awards are going to face some stiff competition for headlines this year.
I got it! It's...
OPERATION BIGDOME
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
And if our son's did it pretty much the right way, by following the advice of the orthopedist, not a dentist,and did it through hours upon hours of PT and strength and conditioning as opposed to HGH and the expenditure of thousands of dollars
That my friend is one heck of a tough decision to be a parent providing guidance for. I can't imagine having to tell my son to do the right thing and potentially throw your dreams and aspirations out the window while others are getting shady prescriptions to get healthy.
Honestly, I have no clue what I'd say. I'm confident I'd advise him of the "right" and "wrong" course of action though. What would you say in that situation?
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
And if our son's did it pretty much the right way, by following the advice of the orthopedist, not a dentist,
That, right there, in the proverbial nutshell is exactly why I say I want to see the policy be Get Caught, You're Outta There. Being a pro ballplayer is an earned priviledge. If you've got an injury/condition verified by your doctor AND the team doctor --- you get scripts.
If you're (ahem) self-medicating, you're playing Russian (now there's an apt term) Roulette with your career.
Yes, it is tough to find good pitching. (And, apparently, honest people of character in MLB on the field and behind the desks.) But there are good pitchers, players, and hitters buried in MiLB right now so 7 figures can be awarded to Better Living Through Chemistry-enhanced Superior Genetics Believers.
Grrrr.....
Beezer,
I fully agree with you that these are tough, very tough. IMO, what Cleveland just did, for a large section of the player population is to justify every action of it's player, as Byrd reported them.
It justified his going around baseball rules in numerous ways to obtain HGH, it justified obtaining this from a dentist, it justified the representation of this being for a severe pituitary tumor. It justified his not identifying the condition in advance as baseball requires and having medical oversight and approval of the process of treatment. Justified everything to the tune of $7,500,000.
So let me complicate this a bit further.
I recently talked with a young man who is at the end of his career at about age 25-27. He has had baseball related injuries that resulted in surgery to two different parts of his body. After a very lengthy effort with the team trainer and doctor, it was concluded his residuals precluded his return to baseball.
He was offered less than $5,000 for a full settlement of his baseball injury related problems, including any medical care those might require during his lifetime.
Certainly, there isn't any guarantee this younger player would ever make MLB. But, from where I view things, it certainly increases the incentives players will make decisions of the type that resulted in a $7,500,000 "reward."
I fully agree with you that these are tough, very tough. IMO, what Cleveland just did, for a large section of the player population is to justify every action of it's player, as Byrd reported them.
It justified his going around baseball rules in numerous ways to obtain HGH, it justified obtaining this from a dentist, it justified the representation of this being for a severe pituitary tumor. It justified his not identifying the condition in advance as baseball requires and having medical oversight and approval of the process of treatment. Justified everything to the tune of $7,500,000.
So let me complicate this a bit further.
I recently talked with a young man who is at the end of his career at about age 25-27. He has had baseball related injuries that resulted in surgery to two different parts of his body. After a very lengthy effort with the team trainer and doctor, it was concluded his residuals precluded his return to baseball.
He was offered less than $5,000 for a full settlement of his baseball injury related problems, including any medical care those might require during his lifetime.
Certainly, there isn't any guarantee this younger player would ever make MLB. But, from where I view things, it certainly increases the incentives players will make decisions of the type that resulted in a $7,500,000 "reward."
just did the math & the only conclusion possible is that the Indians front office are on drugs ...
will they be tested?
he'll be paid about $280,000 per start,
or about $50,000 per inning,
or about $3000 per pitch
will they be tested?
he'll be paid about $280,000 per start,
or about $50,000 per inning,
or about $3000 per pitch
That is obscene.
Thanks for doing the math.
How much does it cost to go to a major league game?
Thanks for doing the math.
How much does it cost to go to a major league game?
Okay, so many of us here have sons currently on MLB teams, in Milb, college, hs and below.
What do we say to them as a collecitve? What do you teach your players/kids? As they progress, is it ok to_______________ fill in the blank. Honestly, what are you telling them at each level. When does it become ok to cross the lines...?
Obviously when they are 18 and older, they are making their own decisions - how do we guide them at that point to stay away from ______________???
What do we say to them as a collecitve? What do you teach your players/kids? As they progress, is it ok to_______________ fill in the blank. Honestly, what are you telling them at each level. When does it become ok to cross the lines...?
Obviously when they are 18 and older, they are making their own decisions - how do we guide them at that point to stay away from ______________???
good question, it can't be an easy task as evidenced by all the players on the investigation/suspension lists are NOT orphansquote:how do we guide them
Bee, now every time I see him pitch, all I will see is $ . strike 3k, ball 3k, strike 3k.
And when he walks someone, 12k down the
And when he walks someone, 12k down the
This is all a very complicated issue and I'm not sure what the answers are.
What do people think should happen to someone like Byrd? Or the "many" others who will surface in the future? Do we give these people the death sentence?
Should organizations just ignore these players and not make an offer? Or should we just turn the page and move forward, trying to clean up the game?
These players are accused of using or purchasing performance enhancing drugs. The arguments are...
1. They Cheated!
2. It is bad for their health
3. It sets a bad example for our youth
4. Other
1. They cheated - Cheating by itself goes on in nearly every sport and has a long history in baseball. I once asked a player, "Would you cheat in order to win a game"? His reply was, "Not only would I cheat to win a game, but I wouldn't want to play with someone who wouldn't"! That is how competitive some people can be. Not saying it's right, but maybe it's the degree of cheating that counts the most.
2. It is bad for their health - Well I have a hard time buying into this theory, even if it were true. Tobacco kills people, alcohol kills people. Lots of things are bad for health yet many of those things are accepted by the general public.
3. It sets a bad example for our youth - This is probably the #1 most important item. To me, this is the biggest problem.
4. Other - ??????
What do people think should happen to someone like Byrd? Or the "many" others who will surface in the future? Do we give these people the death sentence?
Should organizations just ignore these players and not make an offer? Or should we just turn the page and move forward, trying to clean up the game?
These players are accused of using or purchasing performance enhancing drugs. The arguments are...
1. They Cheated!
2. It is bad for their health
3. It sets a bad example for our youth
4. Other
1. They cheated - Cheating by itself goes on in nearly every sport and has a long history in baseball. I once asked a player, "Would you cheat in order to win a game"? His reply was, "Not only would I cheat to win a game, but I wouldn't want to play with someone who wouldn't"! That is how competitive some people can be. Not saying it's right, but maybe it's the degree of cheating that counts the most.
2. It is bad for their health - Well I have a hard time buying into this theory, even if it were true. Tobacco kills people, alcohol kills people. Lots of things are bad for health yet many of those things are accepted by the general public.
3. It sets a bad example for our youth - This is probably the #1 most important item. To me, this is the biggest problem.
4. Other - ??????
quote:1. They cheated - Cheating by itself goes on in nearly every sport and has a long history in baseball. I once asked a player, "Would you cheat in order to win a game"? His reply was, "Not only would I cheat to win a game, but I wouldn't want to play with someone who wouldn't"! That is how competitive some people can be. Not saying it's right, but maybe it's the degree of cheating that counts the most.
I completely understand what you're saying, but it makes me feel kind of squeemish...doesn't it you? There's a cute little balk move (most of you probably know it) that RHPs can use in a 1- or 2-umpire system that is almost never caught during the game...except by opposing coaches. My older son used it often in HS (he learned it at a college camp) and picked off a lot of runners with it. Although I like it and think its kind of cool, I could not bring myself to teach it to young kids on our younger son's teams as I felt it set a bad example by me because it really is "cheating."
quote:3. It sets a bad example for our youth - This is probably the #1 most important item. To me, this is the biggest problem.
Yep, this IS the problem. I'm not so sure 12-year olds are much affected by this...but what about the HS player who is trying to figure out how to add that little extra bit to get to the next level? I don't think the concept of "cheating" comes into their mind...nor would they would take the chance because they idolize a big leaguer. Its more of an "example of how to get there." That alone makes it a big problem to me.
I am of the mind that we need to move on. But it is my understanding (just from reading some articles...which can defintely be misleading?) that MLB still has a ways to go to get really serious about all of this. If that is the case, more than anything I'd just like MLB to get serious about stopping it.
I will repeat what I have said before: we cannot change what has happened but we can, hopefully, change what will occur in the future. Give them all a two year grace period to get clean--we cannot change what has happened nor will we ever know the total number of players who have have "used"
Two years hence there will be no excuses---you cross the line you are gone---no more with hunts
Two years hence there will be no excuses---you cross the line you are gone---no more with hunts
Another thought---Mickey Mantle was followed by devils from within---he was the first male in his family to live thru his 40's---if he did not drink as he did and whatever else would he have been the player he was---for him you could easily say that alcohol was a performance enhancer for him but was and is still totally legal
TR - If Mantle did not drink, he would have been even better. Drinking hinders athletic performance.
Tripledad
Not in his case--- between his knees and his fear of impending death he needed something to get over the "hump"
Not in his case--- between his knees and his fear of impending death he needed something to get over the "hump"
Alcohol is a depressant, not a stimulant. Once it enters the blood stream and hits the brain, it slows reaction time, it doesn't speed it up. Some may be able to play with an alcohol hangover (which some still do today, as was Mantle's case), but I would be willing to bet, literally no one can play while drunk.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
1. They cheated - Cheating by itself goes on in nearly every sport and has a long history in baseball. I once asked a player, "Would you cheat in order to win a game"? His reply was, "Not only would I cheat to win a game, but I wouldn't want to play with someone who wouldn't"! That is how competitive some people can be. Not saying it's right, but maybe it's the degree of cheating that counts the most.
3. It sets a bad example for our youth - This is probably the #1 most important item. To me, this is the biggest problem.
PG, as to item #3, a local writer who is quite good had an editorial this week. He ended it with a warning to Moms and Dads that they need to be checking their mail box. Bryd and others have proven these types of illegal drugs are available...over the internet. So, it isn't only the example that Byrd and others set by standing in front of a TV set and describing how to obtain this stuff, it is also the enormous $7,500,000 reward Byrd received within a few weeks of this being disclosed. Players in high school have now heard how this can be obtained, are not likely to truly know the downsides, and a within a few weeks learn this same player is $7,500,000 richer.
With regard to "cheating," doesn't it sound wrong to even suggest a level of cheating of this type needs to be permitted/tolerated because it is being done and that is the way some players conduct themselves?
That message, for baseball, it's players, it fans, and perhaps most importantly those who 14-18 years old who aspire to the next level means, IMO, the issue will become worse over time, not bet better or stay the same.
Shouldn't the focus be on those that don't cheat and evening the playing surface so it is a skill based game and those with the best skills, not the best dentist and pharmacist are the ones who play.
I will go one step further and say the Indians and MLB had a chance to step up and show courage on this issue.
Bryd stood in front of cameras and almost "flaunted" what he had done to obtain HGH and the extent and time of his use. This wasn't Bonds or Gary Matthews who deny everything. This was recorded for everyone to see and hear.
By picking up his option, and paying him $7,500,000, I think MLB and it's ownership group showed they will accept and tolerate cheating. I think this entire scenario increases the incentives to push the envelope so to speak because the financial rewards are considerable. IMO, this pushes the line for which "cheating" will be tolerated several steps beyond where we might have thought it was before Byrd came "clean" so to speak.
I think those are some very good points infielddad.
Glove Man
I know full well that alcohol is a depressent but nobody can tell me that the likes of Ruth,Mantle didnt thrive on booze---in Mantle's case it killed a lot of his physical pain---trust me I can recall the nites I elbowed up with the likes of Mantle, Martin, Bauer etc---booze for them was a performance enhancer because they could not perform without it in their blood
I know full well that alcohol is a depressent but nobody can tell me that the likes of Ruth,Mantle didnt thrive on booze---in Mantle's case it killed a lot of his physical pain---trust me I can recall the nites I elbowed up with the likes of Mantle, Martin, Bauer etc---booze for them was a performance enhancer because they could not perform without it in their blood
Of course, the one thing I doubt any of has actually seen is Byrd's contract. It could very well list some pretty interesting points that could drastically change things, including the 7.5 mil.
The Indians could have not signed him, but do we think the other 29 clubs would have not signed him? I'm not sticking up for anyone, just trying to point out that this is not simple! However much time we think about these things is probably nowhere near the time spent by those who are offering the contract and running the business.
The Indians could have not signed him, but do we think the other 29 clubs would have not signed him? I'm not sticking up for anyone, just trying to point out that this is not simple! However much time we think about these things is probably nowhere near the time spent by those who are offering the contract and running the business.
I doubt you meant to sound this way PG when mentioning what the other 29 teams might have done, but isn't that a little like things we get frustrated with our kids about? Don't we try and discourage that argument from them? And isn't it just what a HS kid might say to justify using alchohol/drugs/steroids?
"Well, Mom/Dad...everyone else is doin' "it" (whatever "it" is?) so why shouldn't/can't I?"
I am in no way a perfect person, but I do wish all 30 clubs would say "no." Imagine the wonderful message that would send to our youth?
"Well, Mom/Dad...everyone else is doin' "it" (whatever "it" is?) so why shouldn't/can't I?"
I am in no way a perfect person, but I do wish all 30 clubs would say "no." Imagine the wonderful message that would send to our youth?
You can rest assured that some other team would have signed him if the Indians didn't--- there are not many guys winning upwards of 12 games any more in any given season
We attended a coaching seminar over 10 years ago, where a very well respected pitching coach was the key note speaker. Besides him saying you know the book that I just published, throw it away because I have new techniques on pitching, one of the most shocking things he said was if you are not taking “supplements” you are working at a disadvantage since the next guy is most likely doing it!
We though it was so sad, but I guess he was right!
We though it was so sad, but I guess he was right!
quote:---booze for them was a performance enhancer because they could not perform without it in their blood
I have to say that I am still trying to understand this comment. I enjoy a good beer (or two or three) from time-to-time...but never has it been anything close to a "peformance enhancer."
Cannot imagine the look on the officer's face if anyone were to ever try that line.
The problem is that the other 29 clubs will not say no. And if they did, would Paul Byrd have a law suit against MLB. We must remember, he has not been banned from the game, received a suspension, etc. despite not denying the allegations.
All 30 clubs sending a message? If he is not using performance enhancing drugs now... What is that message they would be sending? Are they suppose to send a message that as soon as someone's name shows up in the newspaper, that person is done in baseball?
Before much longer this entire problem is going to be much bigger than the Paul Byrd situation. I'm only saying it is hard to figure out what the right approach should be. It's going to get even more difficult as more and more news surfaces.
Why not just let the law handle this thing? I don't know, but am betting there is some language in his contract that could quickly get rid of the 7.5 million. Can't see any reason to jump the gun, but that's just my opinion.
In the meantime, the Indians are rewarding a guy who did a good job for them last year. They are not rewarding him because he bought HGH several years ago. That is not what they're paying him for at all.
There's no reason to make it sound like he's being rewarded 7.5 million for buying drugs. That IMO is sending the wrong message!
All 30 clubs sending a message? If he is not using performance enhancing drugs now... What is that message they would be sending? Are they suppose to send a message that as soon as someone's name shows up in the newspaper, that person is done in baseball?
Before much longer this entire problem is going to be much bigger than the Paul Byrd situation. I'm only saying it is hard to figure out what the right approach should be. It's going to get even more difficult as more and more news surfaces.
Why not just let the law handle this thing? I don't know, but am betting there is some language in his contract that could quickly get rid of the 7.5 million. Can't see any reason to jump the gun, but that's just my opinion.
In the meantime, the Indians are rewarding a guy who did a good job for them last year. They are not rewarding him because he bought HGH several years ago. That is not what they're paying him for at all.
There's no reason to make it sound like he's being rewarded 7.5 million for buying drugs. That IMO is sending the wrong message!
quote:All 30 clubs sending a message? If he is not using performance enhancing drugs now... What is that message they would be sending? Are they suppose to send a message that as soon as someone's name shows up in the newspaper, that person is done in baseball?
Good point. I can agree with you on that.
quote:The problem is that the other 29 clubs will not say no.
But I cannot agree with this logic. I cannot, in any way, see this as a justification and I see this logic as a problem when discussing this issue with HS kids.
Lawsuit? I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say 'bring it on!'
justbaseball,
First of all, it is great having you back contributing here.
Regarding the other 29 clubs, I didn't mean that as any type of logic. Just happen to think it's true. Maybe not right, but still true! Surely no one thinks the other 29 clubs would boycott Byrd, do they?
First of all, it is great having you back contributing here.
Regarding the other 29 clubs, I didn't mean that as any type of logic. Just happen to think it's true. Maybe not right, but still true! Surely no one thinks the other 29 clubs would boycott Byrd, do they?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
T We must remember, he has not been banned from the game, received a suspension, etc. despite not denying the allegations.
All 30 clubs sending a message? If he is not using performance enhancing drugs now... What is that message they would be sending? Are they suppose to send a message that as soon as someone's name shows up in the newspaper, that person is done in baseball?
In the meantime, the Indians are rewarding a guy who did a good job for them last year. They are not rewarding him because he bought HGH several years ago. That is not what they're paying him for at all.
There's no reason to make it sound like he's being rewarded 7.5 million for buying drugs. That IMO is sending the wrong message!
PG, Byrd went on TV. This isn't the newspaper thing. He went on TV, admitted he used HGH, admitted he got it from a Fla dentist and admitted using it for 3 years to 2/05.
No one said he is getting $7,500,000 for buying drugs.
If MLB is ever going to have a stronger situation upon which to take a stand, it will be surprising.
PacMan Jones is sitting out this year by edict of the NFL commissioner. Has not been convicted of anything and there is almost unanimous support for the suspension.
Wouldn't it be great if MLB, the Indians, someone came out and said what Bryd did/admits to doing is not in any way condoned.
Here is my view:
I agree they say they paid him $7,500,000 for his performance on the field.
He admits he used HGH, which he purchased without prior disclosure to the team, for 3 years.
HGH is a performance enhancing drug.
He admits he used the HGH to recover from injury and to feel better and stronger.
He is being paid handsomely for performance that was impacted by HGH.
I would just like MLB and the Indians to tell us they have a position on this situation and what that position might be.
PG - Thanks for the kind comment...still not too sure I'm going to be able to contribute much.
But no, I don't think so either (about the 29 other clubs staying away). My frustration is not with you, but we both know that 'everyone else would do it' is something that resonates well with teenagers and I really wish it were not part of the conversation on this topic.
My younger son is a freshman at a private HS in Northern California. They have one of the most successful HS athletic programs in the country (rated #5 athletic program by Sports Illustrated, #1 in California by Student Sports). But they also lay down the law on issues such as drugs, alchohol, etc... on Day-1 and they do not stray from their principles. Doesn't matter who you are, athlete or not. Their approach is very successful as far as I can tell. A few kids each year cross the line and they deal with it quickly and in a straightforward manner.
The result from what I can tell so far is a very dedicated and disciplined staff and student body both academically and athletically and I am becoming convinced the results are directly related to the approach.
Previously I thought this approach would be too rigid. Perhaps sometimes it is. But my eyes have been opened a bit by witnessing it firsthand and seeing the clearly positive results. Almost no one crosses the line they have drawn because the repurcussions are certain and absolute.
And I have never seen one of my kids happier or more lovingly cared for by peers, staff and upperclassmen as I have seen at this HS. I am coming to genuinely like the caring yet no-nonsense approach that they take with the kids. A little of that approach might go a long way with the issue in pro sports and remove a very bad example of how to get there and/or enhance one's performance with a multi-million dollar contract down the road justifying the means...unless we want the government to take care of it for them. That would be bad IMO.
But no, I don't think so either (about the 29 other clubs staying away). My frustration is not with you, but we both know that 'everyone else would do it' is something that resonates well with teenagers and I really wish it were not part of the conversation on this topic.
My younger son is a freshman at a private HS in Northern California. They have one of the most successful HS athletic programs in the country (rated #5 athletic program by Sports Illustrated, #1 in California by Student Sports). But they also lay down the law on issues such as drugs, alchohol, etc... on Day-1 and they do not stray from their principles. Doesn't matter who you are, athlete or not. Their approach is very successful as far as I can tell. A few kids each year cross the line and they deal with it quickly and in a straightforward manner.
The result from what I can tell so far is a very dedicated and disciplined staff and student body both academically and athletically and I am becoming convinced the results are directly related to the approach.
Previously I thought this approach would be too rigid. Perhaps sometimes it is. But my eyes have been opened a bit by witnessing it firsthand and seeing the clearly positive results. Almost no one crosses the line they have drawn because the repurcussions are certain and absolute.
And I have never seen one of my kids happier or more lovingly cared for by peers, staff and upperclassmen as I have seen at this HS. I am coming to genuinely like the caring yet no-nonsense approach that they take with the kids. A little of that approach might go a long way with the issue in pro sports and remove a very bad example of how to get there and/or enhance one's performance with a multi-million dollar contract down the road justifying the means...unless we want the government to take care of it for them. That would be bad IMO.
maybe i'm ignorant..........well ok i am, but it is my understanding hgh is not a steroid. and i understand it to be good for us older guys.i'm thinking of changeing my dentist. 
my question ,does hgh showup on a test? is it a banned substance in mlb? i know they banned steroids in the 90's but if it isn't a steroid?
i still think the gap is way to wide between mlb and milb. you toe the line until you make it then it's katy bar the door.
my question ,does hgh showup on a test? is it a banned substance in mlb? i know they banned steroids in the 90's but if it isn't a steroid?
i still think the gap is way to wide between mlb and milb. you toe the line until you make it then it's katy bar the door.
quote:Byrd went on TV. This isn't the newspaper thing. He went on TV, admitted he used HGH, admitted he got it from a Fla dentist and admitted using it for 3 years to 2/05.
maybe the difference is, "is he our team's juicer, or yours"
If we as parents do what we should be doing as parents whatever Byrd or Bonds or any other athlete does, should not influence our kids---it all begins at home !!!
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
You can rest assured that some other team would have signed him if the Indians didn't--- there are not many guys winning upwards of 12 games any more in any given season
And that is the sad calamity of this story.
justbaseball is absolutely correct.
By the way, justbaseball--welcome back.
justbaseball, wonderful post.
infielddad,
quote:Here is my view:
I agree they say they paid him $7,500,000 for his performance on the field.
He admits he used HGH, which he purchased without prior disclosure to the team, for 3 years.
HGH is a performance enhancing drug.
He admits he used the HGH to recover from injury and to feel better and stronger.
He is being paid handsomely for performance that was impacted by HGH
were Bonds, Byrd, etc orphans with NO parental input??quote:If we as parents do what we should be doing as parents whatever Byrd or Bonds or any other athlete does, should not influence our kids---it all begins at home !!!
or was the temptation too great??