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69 replies

What should I do about son's HS program?

BG Bill GatesMember
First I am not a TROLL. I am a medium time poster here and I am posting anonymously for a reason. This is serious request for opinions.

Here is the situation. My son, plays for a High School program that has not been very successful over the past 7 years.(time coach has been there) They are marginally competitive, and have never had a winning season in this period of time. The facilities and infrastructure were deteriorating when he started at the school, so myself and a few other parents started a booster club from scratch to generate funds to help out the program. We are now in our fourth year and we have put back into the program quite a lot. We have redone both the JV and Varsity fields, rebuilt dugouts, put in a Varsity club house, new nets, batting cages, bullpens, sound system, field maintenance equipment, etc. The place is not super fancy, but now is a clean respectable place to play baseball. We have also implemented a stipend for all of the assistant coaches. All of this has been done unconditionally and I (we that I know of) have never, not once, said a thing about how the program was run on the field. In the back of my mind I thought that as we improved the conditions that the program would improve along with the playing conditions. I guess I should have known better, but the program continues to flounder, which is not really the main problem just a reflection in my opinion.

I am not really that concerned about the win/loss record other than it is, like I said, a reflection on how the program is run. The problem is that the kids are not treated with respect and dignity. They are put down and criticized for their play, and as far as I can tell never encouraged or given positive reinforcement. If a player makes an error he is pulled. What happens is that the team usually starts off competitive in the early season and then it fades at the end, and toward the end there is no life left in the kids and they typically lose the last 4-6 games. My son is a three-year Varsity starter, and I noticed the slide in his first year, and thought it was odd. In his second year I thought it was a bit of a coincidence, and now in his third year I see that it is no accident, the kids are beat down and the Seniors in particular just want to get out of there. None of the kids appear to be having any fun and the dugout is like a morgue.

I started looking into this a bit more and I have found that the lower levels of the program is relatively successful. The freshmen and the JV program typically do well, usually they have winning seasons, sometimes not, but sometimes they are quite successful. It is a medium sized public school with decent feeder programs, and has a social economic mix that would make you think that over a extended period of time it would have a few up years and a few down years. The other Varsity sports programs in the school follow this trend. They have championship seasons, and they have down years. The best run program (IMO) in the school is always competitive, regardless of the players. My son has also played in this program, and IMO it is not an accident that they are successful year in and year out. The head coach and all of his assistants are class acts.

After observing this I have started to ask my son about his coaching and what he thought about the program. He has told me that he can’t stand the coaches and can’t wait for the season to be done. He is a baseball-coholic and has played for all kinds of teams, from some of the best in our area, and on some not very competitive teams. In all cases he has had fun, except at his HS. After talking with him about it I started to ask a few of the other Sr parents about their opinion about the program, every one I asked had the same comments regarding the coaching. I have run into a few former players around town and have asked them about their experiences and they have more of less said the same thing. The could not stand the coaches by the time they graduated all they wanted to do was get out and move on.

So here is my dilemma. What do I do about it? Do I just walk away and say nothing? Do I go and talk to the head coach ? Do I go to the AD ? Do I get a group of parents and go talk to the AD?

Right now my thinking is to set up a private meeting with the AD and go though my observations about the program, go through my above reasoning, and suggest he talk to other parents, players, current and former, maybe some of the lower level coaches and leave it at this. I don’t think it will do any good to talk to the head coach, as the only thing that this will accomplish is to create tension between him and myself and maybe some of the boosters. I really don’t want to start an insurrection with a bunch of other parents.

I think that the boosters should remain committed and supportive unconditionally and stay out of the on field activities, other than making sure their son’s are safe and treated with respect. If any other parents ask me about the situation I am going to suggest they talk to the AD on their own.

By doing it this way I believe I can walk away from the program with my conscious clear, proud of the improvements I helped make, and also put the AD on notice that there is a problem and let him deal with it as he sees fit.

I would like some thoughts on the subject and any comments from posters who have experienced the same thing.

Thanks
Last edited {1}
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fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
Your motivation is unclear to me. You have a couple issues going on here. I'm not sure either of them are cause to go to the coach, AD or above AD.

1) Players are not treated with respect or dignity
2) Program is run poorly and no success over 7 years

If I've learned anything in the last few baseball years, it is that not everyone is happy....even if a team is winning. I don't think going to the coach or AD will change anything. I'm sure the AD knows he has a baseball coach problem, he is just choosing to do nothing about it for whatever reason. Players are not treated with respect or dignity will probably not get you anywhere, and the second offense not so much either. IMHO - You really need something more substantial to go to the AD or above him if you expect change.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gates:
So here is my dilemma. What do I do about it? Do I just walk away and say nothing? Do I go and talk to the head coach ? Do I go to the AD ? Do I get a group of parents and go talk to the AD?

By doing it this way I believe I can walk away from the program with my conscious clear, proud of the improvements I helped make, and also put the AD on notice that there is a problem and let him deal with it as he sees fit.

I would like some thoughts on the subject and any comments from posters who have experienced the same thing.

Thanks


wait until the season is over and your son has left the program and make an appointment with the AD to discuss all of your concerns.....that way you can walk away with a clear concious that your motives were all for the program....

But dont be too disapointed that the AD isnt much help....if this is so, and has been for 7 years, and he hasnt seen it or heard it before....then I'd start to believe the bigger problem is sitting in the AD chair....
Last edited by piaa_ump
D 2013 Dad100+ posts
quote:
the answer is simple--- take over as head coach and you bcan rectify all the problems that you think that yousee



Funny how coaches and experienced baseball people on this site seem to think that the issues described above do not happen, or are complained about by ungrateful parents. I hate to break it to a lot of you out there, but there are many AWFUL coaches out there.

For someone to defend a coach without knowing anything about him is ridiculous.

To the op, I have seen similar situations with bad coaches. In one instance, a group of parents went to the School Board and got the guy to leave. In the other, it did no good. You have to get a feel of the situation and make a decision. I wish you and your son's team luck!!
Last edited by 2013 Dad
slottyslotty500+ posts
Regardless of whether this is a public high school supported by taxes or a private/parochial high school supported by tuition, a parent has every right to want and expect a quality educational program (and that includes the athletic department) for their child.

So, let's approach the poster's stated dilemma from a different angle to see if there is a smart course of action.

Let's say that the school had a really lousy mathematics department and your son was a good enough math student to take honors/AP courses and qualify for the math team. Besides that, he loves math! But unfortunately the head of the math dept (or a specific math teacher) has shown a propensity over a number of years for leaching the joy of learning math out of any student that comes under his/her purview.

Now, do you shrug and say "Well, I guess my son will ride it out, cause there is little I can do," or do you go to the principal and in a reasoned, informed, and prepared way, express your concern? Sure, there is risk involved; maybe nothing will change and you (and by osmosis, your child) will be perceived as a malcontent--and your child will suffer for it.

BUT, if the poster's assessment is correct and their motives pure, I think this is the course of action a concerned parent should take--if not for the child, then for the entire program and future participants.
Last edited by slotty
meachrmmeachrm100+ posts
To me, it seems like your priorities are in order and you have your head screwed on right. I can't comment on the coach because I'm not there and don't know more than what you've said. The comment about waiting until your son is finished before talking to the AD is a good one IMO. But your son and his teammates can't just sit around and wish the coach would encourage them. If it were my son I would recommend he get together with the team away from school (over pizza, at someone's house, etc) and decide that they will do all the encouraging instead of the coach. Be each other's support system. When the coach yells, five guys jump in after to provide whatever encouragement is needed. Challenge each other to see how many games they can win in spite of the coach. Don't ignore the coach or disobey him at all. Just don't expect the coach to be someone he isn't. If they win and the coach gets the credit, they can get the silent satisfaction of knowing the real story.
There is always going to be a difficult coach, teacher, or boss out there for our kids. They need to learn how to handle it so they can still succeed.

BaseballByTheYard
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
I know you think the answer to that snide question is obvious, but it's less so than you think.

First, in most employment situations there is accountability. Bosses do sometimes get fired for poor performance, and employee input is (in a strong organization) valued and respected. Upper management is well advised to consider that much employee griping may reflect bad employee attitudes more than problems with the supervisor, but at the same time if certain complaints are made consistently and they are seen as contributing to poor performance, then the boss may well end up fired.

In the setting of a public school, there is often zero accountability. The high school coach is a teacher of the game and is also the gate keeper for players trying to improve and perhaps even gain future opportunities. In a business setting, consistently poor performance in those key categories would result in his being replaced. In a government setting, often not. The reality is that the public school environment is one where job security is highly valued and no one wants to go after any one for fear that it could fuel an environment where everyone is scrutinized and everyone has to perform well to justify their continued employment. (Heaven forbid, that would be like the private sector!)

Thus, you are fortunate when you have an outstanding coach. You are not fortunate if you have a bad apple. In between, you have to be grateful that you don't have a bad apple, and that attitude will serve you well (as opposed to pining for perfection).

Second, I agree that in most instances the complaints you hear are most commonly from your "helicopter parent" types and should be taken with a strong dose of salt. I wouldn't want to see an environment where parents could run coaches out just because son didn't get the playing time they wanted, or because of a rough season here and there. But I do think that when a public school employee is shown to be consistently abusive to young men, and when he sets a poor example of what adult leadership is and should look like, it is entirely appropriate for parents to point those things out.

The AD is then charged with weighing the facts and making a decision as to which category we're dealing with -- whiny spoiled parents, or perhaps a problem coach.

I know at our school, the principal came to watch a basketball game and observed our head coach (my son was not on the team) berate his players and officials and use profanity regularly. He was relieved the next day, mid season. The team was losing before the firing and continued losing afterwards, until the position was filled with more of than an emergency fill in and someone had a chance to build for a full season.

But wouldn't you want that? For everyone to know that there is an ultimate authority who demands that right standards be adhered to? I emphasize, the coach was not fired for losing. He was fired for his behavior and the poor example he set for the young men in his charge.

I think this is particularly important in the public school setting, where families are often captive to the coach because they do not have the wherewithal to move or to go private just to enhance their sports experience.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Your son is going to be graduating soon and technically you will be over and done with the program but I think that you care more about others than your own son, or you wouldn't have brought it up (an I doubt that this is a sour grapes lack of playing time situation.)

I would definetly go speak with the AD after your son is no longer involved with the program, don't get anyone else involved, don't let it be, "see I am not the only one", type of situation, if the AD cares about kids he/she will observe future behavior and then have to determine whether it is appropriate.
JMO.
Smile
BG Bill GatesMember
Thanks for the comments and suggestions so far.

I particularly like the one about having the kids get a team meeting alone together and decide for themselves what they want out of the rest of the season. I am going to suggest that to my son. I love this site because of comments like this.

Bill Gates Jr is a Sr and will be leaving the program at the end of the year. Not that it matters, but he was a three-year starter and has pretty much played every inning of every game in the last three years. He is all league bla, bla, bla and will go on to play in college, which in this context means nothing. He is no different than the kid getting 1 AB every three games or the kid who gets to pinch run once every other game. Frankly my son gets less grief from these guys because he performs at a high level, so it has nothing to do with him. My son has played for some very good coaches and has blown these guys off for a couple of years now, and because of this I probably was not aware of some of this stuff until now.

The community has given a lot to the program and we have seen the parental and community involvement grow substantially during the past 4 years. I agree that we should have NOTHING to do with what goes on between the lines. What we should expect however is that our kids be treated fairly, honorably, and honestly. This includes a good kick in the a$$ when appropriate.

I have more or less decided that I will organize my thoughts and get a meeting with the AD at the end of the season. I feel obligated to say something because it is partially because of my efforts that so many are now involved and I don’t think I should stand by and let some of the things happen that I have heard about the past few weeks. It is not right and I would have a hard time just walking away without saying something. I will say my peace and let him do what he wants with the information. We have some excellent coaches and programs in the school so he should have a good model to compare with.
D 2013 Dad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gates:
Thanks for the comments and suggestions so far.

I have more or less decided that I will organize my thoughts and get a meeting with the AD at the end of the season. I feel obligated to say something because it is partially because of my efforts that so many are now involved and I don’t think I should stand by and let some of the things happen that I have heard about the past few weeks. It is not right and I would have a hard time just walking away without saying something. I will say my peace and let him do what he wants with the information. We have some excellent coaches and programs in the school so he should have a good model to compare with.



Just one comment here: I would recommend that you definitely discuss your intentions with all parents remaining after this year. Since your guy is a Sr. you and he have nothing to lose. However, you could anger many parents if you act alone and they and their kids have to deal with the fallout for the next year, or two or three, while your boy is off at college. JMO. Otherwise, I hope it works out.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
I was going to ask if your son was a Sr, but you just posted it.

TR you are so helpful. These are kids for crying out loud. This is a public school!

I think you have a good plan and would definitely wait until your son is gone. You can tell the AD that you have nothing to gain and that you are only trying to help out those coming up through the program.

If other parents ask then send them to the AD, if more complain then maybe he will get the idea that there is a problem.

mechrm
Last edited by BOF
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
Bill Gates,
You may not have the power to change the situation, but you do have excellent credibility, because your son is leaving, has had good success at the high school, and is moving to the next level. So the usual reasons that a parent might be unhappy with a coach don't apply.

It would be difficult for the AD to think you have an axe to grind.

I think it would be good to make this appeal to the AD by yourself, especially not involving anyone who still have kids in the program. Including them would reduce your credibility. I would edit what you have written here, and send it to the AD while asking for an appointment. The AD might be able to "mis-hear" your comments, but a written document is harder to ignore.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
D 2013 Dad100+ posts
BOF, yes it is definitely possible and Bill Gates obviously has a better sense of the situation. I guess what I was trying to say was that, clearly, other parents have been hesitant to say something. And if something is said after Gates leaves and while the other kids are there,the parents could be upset, that's all. You would like to think that the coach would not take it out (the conversation with the AD) on the players who remain, but if he is in fact such a bad coach, then perhaps he would take it out on the remaining players.

I guess I am more in Zomby's camp on this topic.
Last edited by 2013 Dad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
I think it would be good to make this appeal to the AD by yourself, especially not involving anyone who still have kids in the program. Including them would reduce your credibility. I would edit what you have written here, and send it to the AD while asking for an appointment. The AD might be able to "mis-hear" your comments, but a written document is harder to ignore.


Good stuff. I agree.
P Pedropere100+ posts
I think I'd have a talk with the AD on a non-urgent basis and discuss what characteristics would be most important at the point where a baseball coaching change is made.

He's going to do it on his own schedule anyway.

I've watched this situation in other sports where a program is just poorly served by the coach. One of the issues is "what is the alternative". If there would be a long line of qualified candidates who would be better, then that's one situation. If there aren't that many good coaches around, then that's another.

I do think that coaches can completely screw up programs over extended periods of time if they are people that young men don't want to play for. Most of your best baseball players can play other sports too. Word gets out if baseball stinks at the high school and no one can stand the coach. Don't think that doesn't damage the program immensely. The best programs create large pools of talent that really want to be on the field and in the dugout in those programs. A lot of that is personality and approach.

The AD may not realize what he is dealing with. And if he does, he may not care that much. But if other parents speak to him later in the same vein, it should begin to register, and he might find an opportunity to act on it.
Last edited by Pedropere
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
Darn it 3Finger, you done went and took the words outta my mouth AGAIN. That was exactly what I was thinking. This Dad has no axe to grind thus his opinion and point of view should be taken quite well by the AD. And I promise you, if this AD has been in place at this school for a while, this won't be the first time he's heard complaints about this coach. The question is, if he has heard them before, why hasn't he been able to do anything about it?

We had the same kind of coach at my son's school before his junior year. Horrible man of character. The reason he wasn't removed from coaching sooner than he was is because the Principal had hired him directly. He had connectionsf that many didn't realize! (thank GOD he was finally removed!)

And...if all this doesn't work....Bill, by the school and hire whomever you like! Heck, we all know you got the moola to do it!

YGD
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
I guess I'm going to be a little different here...

I was always taught that if you have a problem with someone, or with what they are doing, you give them a chance to be addressed and then address their own behavior.

Now, if your son was still playing, I can see why you might need to skip this step. But if you wait until after the season, what negative consequences will come from your approaching the coach and asking if he will discuss your concerns? It might not be pleasant, but it might address the situation directly without going over his head.

I am a head coach. I certainly hope I don't have any of the problems/shortcomings that your head coach has. But I'm sure from a player/parent standpoint, not everyone agrees with me and what I do. I would certainly hope that a parent (especially one that I've been familiar with for 3 years) would come to me and say: I think there are some problems in your program, or I don't feel that the players are happy, or, many of your players want to leave the program.

Will all coaches take this as constuctive criticism and react to the criticism as it was intended? No. But give a man a chance to be a man, and react as he should. What if he isn't aware of these things and you, in fact, convince him to do things differently? What if you open his eyes? Maybe he will move on on his own, or maybe he will seek assistance to get better.

But if you go over his head to the AD, and the AD is part of the problem, NOTHING will happen because the AD may never say a word to the coach. And then things just stay the same.

I must admit, I can't understand at all the posters who have said "Just don't do anything"....certainly, you can do that. But if you love the program and the school and you really care to see it be successful in the future, what do you lose by attempting to rectify the situation?

I hope that a parent would approach me if they felt I had that serious of a coaching flaw, instead of just going over my head.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 2013 Dad:
quote:
the answer is simple--- take over as head coach and you bcan rectify all the problems that you think that yousee



Funny how coaches and experienced baseball people on this site seem to think that the issues described above do not happen, or are complained about by ungrateful parents. I hate to break it to a lot of you out there, but there are many AWFUL coaches out there.

For someone to defend a coach without knowing anything about him is ridiculous.

To the op, I have seen similar situations with bad coaches. In one instance, a group of parents went to the School Board and got the guy to leave. In the other, it did no good. You have to get a feel of the situation and make a decision. I wish you and your son's team luck!!


It's also funny how those who don't coach go straight to criticize without knowing anything about the coach.

A coach is an employee and a boss at the same time. He does answer to an AD, principal, school board and superintendent but he's also over his players. He's also a taxpayer.

Midlo Dad and TCB1 have made two great posts. I'm not going to say what I'm going to say next to try and create sympathy. It's a lot tougher to be a public school teacher / coach than people think. You got 20 - 30 some kids in class and however many you got on your athletic team. Not everyone is happy with the teacher / coach all the time. Remember back to that awesome teacher you had back in the day and loved going to their class - I guarantee you that person had those who didn't like them. With that dislike or just difference of opinion opens the door to unwarranted or extreme criticism. As Midlo Dad pointed out a principal or AD has to filter through the complaints to find out what's credible and what's not.

Let me give this example - I know a guy who has been coaching for a very long time. He's successful because he's got a ton of wins, two state championship appearances, sent many players to college and pros, he raised tons of money to redo the field to where it's one of the best in the area, he never yells at his players, he never demeans them, all he does is mention positive things. The most important part is the vast majority of his players LOVE him. Anybody I've ever came across has all kinds of good things to say about him. He moved up a classification last year and his team is competing against the powerhouses of his new conference / class. He's a high level member of the NC coaches association and is respected by many throughout the state. He's got about 5 years until he will retire.

Last week he was called into the office and told he would be fired at the end of the season. This has effectively ended his career. Because he is a man of character he is going to finish out the season for the kids.

He ticked off a board member because their son wasn't good enough to play so he didn't play.

The point I'm trying to make is we are constantly in jeopardy of upsetting the "right" people at the "wrong" time and we lose our jobs over it. Politics are everywhere but most of the time people just focus on how certain players gain playing time due to who they know but it works the other way just as easily. People doing the right thing can get fired just as easily.

In this situation many people have just jumped onto the bandwagon this guy is not very good or is terrible. We only have one person's point of view to determine anything. I will say that Bill Gates has done the absolute best job of presenting a balanced and (taking at face value) honest assesment of the situation. I think it's a safe bet to say he's telling the truth and something should be done about this coach.

This is where TCB1 has made a great post - how many of you in your job would like to be told if you're doing something wrong and want the opportunity to fix it before it goes over your head? I think everyone would like that so why can't we give teachers / coaches this chance? Maybe it will work and maybe it won't - just like people in the "real world".

One of the things I've always told my players and students is if there is something wrong or whatever I want them to come talk to me. Come to me in a mature manner and respectfully and I will listen. We can talk it out and let each side see where the other is coming from. In the classroom I will sometimes make a mistake in grading papers. I hate when it happens but it does happen. If my students come up and say "Hey coach I think there might be a mistake here." or "He coach I thought the answer to this was.....because....." Or my players say "Hey coach can we talk about what you're looking for out of me?" or "Hey coach I was wondering why you had me do that hit and run in that situation the other day?" Even if parents come talk to me like this I will listen and talk to anybody about almost anything.

But that vast majority of time it's "You messed up on my test and marked this wrong when I know it's right." or "I don't see why I had to bunt when I thought I could drill this guy." or "Why in the hell is my son on the bench?"

Virtually any person will be open and willing to talk if they are approached in the right way. But it seems to be a skill people are losing.

Give this guy a chance to make changes. It's probably how you would want to be treated.
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
These are some very valid and good points being made. I'm sure many on here either are or have faced this at some point....unfortunately. I would venture to say that most of the high school HC's that preside here on HSBBW are indeed the best in the nation (IMO) and you all are approachable in some manner.

In respect of keeping this thread going with good thoughts and mature opinions by all...let me ask this. Would you coaches honestly be open to any parent coming to you DURING the season to talk about any perceived issue or problem? I only ask because our HC told the parents at the beginning of each season that any problems with or about players would be addressed WITH that player privately and maturely. And that parents were prohibited from contacting him during the season so that he may concentrate on playing the game and building young men. Worked every year.

Here's the Catch 22 of this scenario. So a parent doesn't feel comfortable knowing he shouldn't talk to a coach during the season. The son hears his parents at night talk about how the coach is treating the players. I'm not sure there is a high school player alive that would feel like he could tell a grown, mature Coach about how he is treating the players and it's not appreciated.

So while I will agree with you that being able to go to the Coach to let him know of his shortcomings might be the noble thing to do...just when or how do you do it? I don't really think it CAN be done during the season without setting off a revolt of some kind. Or fear that a coach will react with contempt and sit the parent's son in retribution. Because of his lack of character in the first place this would be my greatest concern.

This really hard. So I will change my recommendation after hearing some of your points of view. Instead of going to the AD after the season call the HC and ask if you could meet with him. At that point express your thoughts and feelings in a mature and humble way that lets him know that you're doing this for nothing more than the good of the team, the players, and the future of the program. At THAT point, you will most assuredly know that you can walk away knowing that you attempted to change the environment for future players and parents.

I applaud and admire the OP's care for this program. It won't be easy but it just might be YOU that does make a change.

Good luck

YGD
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
I would agree that it makes it a chancey situation to approach the coach during the middle of the season, especially if your son is still playing or going to be playing next year. Even as the head coach who might be approached and be ticked off by what you say, I recognize that it puts you, the parent, in an awkward position.

Worst case scenario: The head coach takes it out on your son and benches him. That is why the OP may want to wait until the end of the season. Now, I personally, would never take something like this out on the player, but lets assume the coach is a bad guy; he might. So the parent addresses him AFTER the season and sees if he opens the coach's eyes.

Then if that doesn't go well, he still has the ability to tell the AD, and now he can even add to the discussion that he tried to talk to the coach man to man, and the coach was difficult, angry, etc.

A couple of suggestions to anyone who wants to approach a coach with concerns/complaints:

DON'T do it right after or before a game.
DON'T complain about individual players and who's better than whom.
DON'T come in pointing a finger and angry...count to 10 before your meeting.
DON'T approach the coach on the baseball field or with the kids around unless it is to tell him you'd like to set up a time to talk.

DO realize that he MIGHT see your point, and try to get there without starting with a confrontational attitude.

Just some thoughts...
OB Ole Ball Coach100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by slotty:
Regardless of whether this is a public high school supported by taxes or a private/parochial high school supported by tuition, a parent has every right to want and expect a quality educational program (and that includes the athletic department) for their child.

So, let's approach the poster's stated dilemma from a different angle to see if there is a smart course of action.

Let's say that the school had a really lousy mathematics department and your son was a good enough math student to take honors/AP courses and qualify for the math team. Besides that, he loves math! But unfortunately the head of the math dept (or a specific math teacher) has shown a propensity over a number of years for leaching the joy of learning math out of any student that comes under his/her purview.

Now, do you shrug and say "Well, I guess my son will ride it out, cause there is little I can do," or do you go to the principal and in a reasoned, informed, and prepared way, express your concern? Sure, there is risk involved; maybe nothing will change and you (and by osmosis, your child) will be perceived as a malcontent--and your child will suffer for it.

BUT, if the poster's assessment is correct and their motives pure, I think this is the course of action a concerned parent should take--if not for the child, then for the entire program and future participants.


I agree %100.

Especially on this site, I think we run into a "well, it's hard, then, do it yourself," mentality. And certainly, coaching can be one of the most challenging responsibilities. That, however, is not an answer; if I agree to teach someone something, it is my responsibility to do the best at it I can. That means objectively appraising my performance, too.

Accountability matters; if you insist on it with your players, it is hypocritical to not to expect it from yourself.

This coach and program may or may not be the best thing since sliced bread, but it sure sounds like the program has been substandard for a very long time. Worse (again, according to the OP), the coach has created an environment that is negative and full of recrimination year after year. If you saw that in the workplace, wouldn't you affect a change? I am guessing that most of the folks here would do just that.

Playing high school baseball is a privilege, and not a right. The same for coaching. If you can't measure up and create an environment that gets the best out of your players, it is time for a change. If nothing else, you are setting the bar higher; an outcome that will benefit the next generation of players going through.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
The situtation is seldom that clear cut. Almost every coach has both strengths and weaknesses. I don't have any issue with going to the AD with facts, but not with a recommended course of action.

I like what one parent told me about the HS coach at an alumni game back when my son was on the HS team - "I hate the *** but my son likes to help out so I smile and shake his hand when I have to but I avoid talking to him if I can."

His son went on to pitch in the CWS and was in pro ball when he told me this.

The reality is that even if you know that a coach willingly screwed your kid he probably treated the majority of the kids reasonably well and is doing his best. There's seldom if ever justification for trying to get a HS coach fired. Let's face it, there are exceptions but most of these guys are doing it because they love the game. They sure aren't doing it for the money.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Looking back, my son wasn't all to crazy in love with his HS coach (s) either, actually he could hardly wait for each season to be over, and senior season as well. Perhaps HS should be for only 3 years, seems like most have had it by their 4th year, with or without sports. Didn't you all feel that way?

I can't speak for what your son and the other players are experiencing, but I will bet you that most players if polled will probably not be crazy for those above them at one time or another in their career.

Not until they leave and grow a bit, that they may find that they have learned a lot of lessons from those they couldn't stand when they were younger.

Just like all other programs, there were issues in my son's HS program as well, and the coach is still there! The coach has survived the program has as well, so all those parents that went to the AD with complaints, not really sure they accomplished what they set out to do (get him removed).

My opinion is that HS ball is what it is. Perhaps we are under the assumption that our players, all of them, are supposed to love the coaching staff and find joy and fun each and every time they come to the field. Often, when a team isn't winning, we know it's not fun. Then we often tend to place blame on our players not moving forward because the coach wasn't as good as we think he should be. The players themselves will lay blame on coaching, I don't think that it often is a win, win situation for either.

FWIW, if your sons move past HS, most likely there are going to be many times they will not particularly like those in charge above them, for one reason or another. My best advice is to teach your kids to go with the flow, understand that everyone is different, and probably the guy who drives him crazy the most will be the one he will always be most grateful too.

Been some good advice given, especially from the coaches who would prefer that you give the coach a chance to hear you out, I think perhaps that is what I would do, after your son leaves. Sometimes we need others to point out things so we can make positive changes to ourselves. If you feel so strongly about helping to make change, ask the coach if you can stay involved with helping the program, we did that for a few years and it was much appreciated. Once your son moves on and out, it gives one a different perspective and appreciation for a lot of BS coaches have to put up with, that is what we found. DK graduated in 04 and we still go up to watch games, practices and talk (chit chat)with the coaches, more than when he was in the program.

I have found that travel and summer team coaches are much more liked, usually because there is less at stake, less pressure, on the players as well as the coaches. That's why summer ball for college players is so great, after a pressure packed season, it's great to work with guys not putting you under that pressure.

These are all things that you will learn from your son as he moves forward in the game.

The bottom line....this will not be the first or the last time your son will tell you he dislikes his coach. Trust me. Smile

Hope this helps.
Last edited by TPM
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Something to think about...

Every situation is different, but here is one true life example to consider.

A star high school player was being recruited by schools like LSU, Arkansas, Nebraska, Wichita State, etc. He decided not to commit during the early signing period and he was also very interested in the draft.

His high school coach was a legend who has since passed away. The coach was old and had some health issues, but still very sharp and knowledgeable. He was very well liked and respected by most everyone involved in baseball. This coach is in a couple HS Hall of Fames.

Before the player mentioned final HS season started, his mother decided the school needed a coaching change. She started a petition to get rid of this well liked coach. She asked us to sign the petition claiming that she was talking to the administrators at the school. This really upset me and many others. The kid had one HS season left with the same coach he had for the past three years. The coach obviously didn't hinder his ability. The only question regarding this player revolved around his attitude and desire, his ability was unquestioned.

Fast forward... The coach stayed, the kid had a phenomenal record breaking season. The team had a great season, also. You would think the future would be brighter than ever.

However, the story about the attempt to get rid of the coach traveled a long ways. Scouts knew about it and the player went undrafted and the college programs that were so interested became uninterested. Maybe had something to do with not wanting to deal with parents who try to get well respected (hall of fame) coaches fired?

The player did play in college, just not one of the more glamorous programs that were so interested earlier. BTW, his college coach ended up getting fired, though we think it had to do more with losing than anything else. Not sure, but it seemed like the MLB teams completely ignored this kid even though he had outstanding ability. He signed and played in an Independent team for part of a season and that was the end of his baseball career.

Guess my point is... If someone has a legitimate problem with a coach, it might be best to deal with it as privately as possible. At the same time, people should understand that if your player is good enough, he will run into coaches he does not like at some point. And there's not much he can do about it!

Maybe there's a good lesson in that old Simon and Garfunkel song?

Not telling anyone what to do, just giving an example. It’s actually better for the rest of us when we get to see the true colors. Provides people some valuable information when making decisions.
NB No Balk10+ posts
I'm a sophmore ,I have had a few Bad Coaches. I wish someone would of stepped up.
Fallball, summer ball ,travel ball, Allyear around ball noway to only have great Coaches but I have had great coaches also.
Lucky I'm a Clown/leader type of kid so I make the dugout fun, If your doing something you like there is a bigger chance you will get better at it.

If your Wife was making you son's life a liven hell yelling ,talking down to him all the time, never given praise for the good things would you wait 4 years to talk to her? Why is everyone Scared of the coaches?
He is just an OLD ballplayer or a teacher that wishes he was an old ballplayer he is your neighbor with a ball cap on,
But to me He is My everything, my Coach, my leader, my boss I'll run poles for him I'll clean the dugout I'll look up to him he is MY role model don't let me follow the wrong role model 4 years. After all I'm in HS not College in College please don't talk to my Coach and I won't talk to your Boss

First thing for HS Problems is talk to your son make sure he see's same thing as you many times my Dad was unhappy and I was having the time of my life. I also learned things from my BAD coaches.
Talk it over with the ones involved keep it under raps make sure your not the only one seeing it this way.
I'm lucky my HS head coach is not real bad at winning (13-3: 3rdplace) he makes mistake but don't we all, and the assist coaches are good with us kids and practices. I'm so Glad I don't have to go though 4 years of the fun being drained out of the game I love.

I've had yelling coaches,coaches that always blame the other guy,cheaters,coaches that play a SS that has 6 error in one game, then puts him in next game for more errors then pulls out a good OF -great hitter- that had 1 error, yelling soon as he misses the ball. I've had coaches that pulled me when I walked no one put in my friend and he walked 3 and we lose by2.
I'm a pitcher I hate errors but I say lets work on not misses and whoever is best at not missing should play. Pulling me out after one mistake without letting me do something to fix it only makes me lose my confidence.

I also Had Coaches I Miss, Coaches that helped make me "who I am becoming".
So thank you all Coaches, the good bad and the Ugly! You Know what one you are LOL
BG Bill GatesMember
I have thought about going directly to the coach and if he asks me I will give him a straight answer. However I have been in and around the program for four years now doing all kinds of field work, helping arrange away trips and other team infrastructure related activities and he has never once asked me about the team, and I have also made it a point to never offer my advice. I see no reason for him to suddenly ask me now, but if he does I will tell him exactly what I think.

I did talk to my son about having a team meeting and he is going to do it but said “ dad some of these kids are too far gone, xyz and zyx are so beat down that one meeting is not going to do them any good” I told him do it for yourself and some others who you can maybe help, particularly the underclassmen who will be there next year. Encourage them and let them know they can play and like someone posted ignore the coaches when they are putting them down.

I did run across one of the other coaches (hitting) when I was out on the field after practice working on some stuff with my son yesterday and he asked me what was wrong. I told him that the kids I saw at the game the day before had no plate discipline and they could not bunt very well. (we had two hits that day…) He got defensive and said that they teach them how to bunt properly in practice but they just don’t do it in the game. I said something was wrong then because they looked lost at the plate. He proceeded to say that you couldn’t take pile of chicken manure and make it in to something else. He also started to blame the local Little League for not developing players. I said to him “really, well how come the kids in the program across town who come out the same league do well” He even got more defensive and walked away. The problem is that over the years this program has developed coaches that put down kids and blame it all on the players, not really looking in the mirror. You would think that after 7 losing seasons (8 now) that he would be thinking that something is wrong. To have the mentality that everything is the kids fault is the root of the problem.

So if asked I will be straight forward and give my opinion. I will tell him exactly the same thing I am going to tell the AD. Believe me I am conflicted with this, I have a lot of respect for HS coaches, they put in tons of extra hours, and he does the same thing. The problem is that what he is doing is wrong and something needs to be said. I also am going to take Cadads advice and offer no suggestions to the AD. Just give him the facts from my perspective and let him do what he feels compelled to do.

I am going to wait and send him a note with my first post edited and add in some more information have a one on one with him and move on.

Thanks everyone who provided the ideas and constructive comments. I will post what happens in a 4 weeks or so.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
The AD may not realize what he is dealing with. And if he does, he may not care that much. But if other parents speak to him later in the same vein, it should begin to register, and he might find an opportunity to act on it.


I agree with that approach as long as everyone in the program, players & parents are 100% behind the revolt and every player wants every parent represented. It won't work with anything less. If the coaching is that bad and all they do is beat down the players when they do anything wrong and bench them after one mistake, or players quit the program in large numbers because they're playing in a hostile or negative atmosphere, it should be addressed and the coach should be forced to go. However, as a parent leaving the program shortly, why even bother? The ones who are still in the program need take action if a change is needed. Problem is nobody has the stones to step up when the chips are down and you never get 100% backing on it. It's not an easy thing to do but if it don't get addressed, then you get the same grumblings year in and year out.

I'm not gonna say it's all the coaches fault in these situations as far as the W-L record goes because the players have to execute, and sometimes the talent is thin or the coaches don't get the most out of or put their players in the best position to succeed, but when a baseball program is being run into the ground or the same negative nonsense happens year in year out the losing is constant, the dugout is lifeless and a culture where kids quit on the program and the coaches beatdown these players at every opportunity, then something has to change.

I was all to familiar with a baseball program like this and from what understand, nothing has changed. I hear the same things now as I heard back then.
Last edited by zombywoof
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