When is it time to move onto...

stop it ..do you know how many high school coached DON"T get the state ring? if you are at a good place that appreciates you and the kids are good kids..STAY THERE and make a difference..just my opinion

 

Great question.  I think it comes down to what you want and what's important to you.  Are you(have you), moving kids on to the next level from your current program?  Which leads me to ask, which is more important, having your players play in college or the state ring?  Coaches are measured and judged in many different ways.  Personally I would not want my kid playing for a HS coach that is only concerned about chasing the state ring.  I have watched it happen at other schools and I am watching the beginning phase of it happening right now in my kids HS program.  I want a coach/program that is going to help my kid develop. I am not saying to discard the dream of playing for the state championship, or even working really hard toward that goal, just prioritize what's important to you and go from there.  If you have reached that time in your career where you think you think it's best to move on, then, IMO, once you've reached that point, it's probably what's best for your current program as well.   But, if you're making a difference with the kids you have now, and you're moving kids on, stay on board, give them 100% and enjoy the benefits of knowing you helping kids tah may not get that help from another coach.  I know that a lot will argue the summer exposure aspect, and we've been round and round about what is expected of a HS program vs summer exposure and I'm not trying to go there.  HS coaches jobs are not based  on winning championships, they just don't get paid to do that. 

 

Please don't take anything I've said as being argumentative or demeaning in any way....just trying to share my .02 of thought

Excellent post ,,My kids high school coach HELPED him get a college shot..that to me is one of the MOST IMPORTANT things to do for a kid..This coach wasnt the the best or the worst coach I've ever seen BUT he went out of his way for the kids on his team to get exposure..thats is KEY

 

I have sent at least one player to play college ball every year I have been a head coach.  Last year I sent 3 kids.  I coach because I love this game and this is what I have always wanted to do is teach and coach.  I played college ball so I know what it is like to play at that level and I love it when I can have a factor in sending a kid to play at the next level.  I am very competitive so that competitiveness drives me to wanting to win at everything that I do especially with baseball.  I guess it just bothers me when I see some programs cheat their way to a state title because of the recruiting violations that occur and when programs like mine do it the right way and coach the kids that are supposed to be at the school end up having no shot.

 

Sorry for the venting, lol 

 

Personally, I like what you have listed as your core beliefs. I believe it's time to move on when you are no longer reaching the kids and not accomplishing those primary goals.  But the rest of your statements bring into question what your primary goals actually are, which is OK.  Everyone is different.

You mentioned you got stopped by a kid throwing low 90's.  Winning on a state level will require that your players are able to make things happen when the opposing pitching level is very strong.  Are you preparing your players on a daily basis to do so or are you just preparing them to succeed against local "OK" competition? 

Are you making a difference in these boys' lives on and off the field?  If you move on to a school with more talented kids who are more capable of winning a state title, what kind of difference will you be able to make with them?  What is your true passion?

 

Another question... some of your recent posts have questioned the value of fall ball.  But this post indidcates that your players are not good enough to achieve lofty goals.  Wouldn't they need to play as much as possible to get there?

 

Not trying to bust your chops, just trying to help you think everything through and connect the dots.

 

We inherited a group that was terrible on the field and had no pride in the program.  The previous coach came from an environment where he could acquire talent... no real development needed.  We had to start from ground zero and build, readjusting goals as they improved and started to believe in themselves.  There is now pride in the program and annual playoff runs are expected.  Just as important, for me anyway, is the fact that the players come away from the program having been influenced in a positive manner.  We're getting close to that ring but it has become clear to me that the ring will not be the big differentiator between those who have successfully played in our program.

I can't imagine being a coach and not being a competitor, i'm sure, using the Old Bull vs Young Bull Theory...that age refines goals, approach and perspective but the goal is the same and the fire still burns in winning coaches. Do whats best for you and what makes you happy. If you want to make a move then do it....none of those families are there for you (outside of baseball) and don't get caught up in the community service aspect of the job, you can still impact plenty of baseball lives while with a winning school/program. There's nothing like losing and never getting better that dampens the old urge to get your butt out of bed everyday and lead.

My son's high school plays in a very competitive baseball environment.  But, due to location it has very little in terms of "feeder" programs into its baseball team (or other sports for that matter) - most kids in the "feeder" programs go to the high schools across town.  So two years ago, they battle in the conference and finished less than .300 in conference play.  They advance into the playoffs and face a cross-town rival with several D1 commits.  They beat them in the Regional championship game to advance.

 

So it happens.  You can stay the course, build a program, and work for success.  Or you can jump ship for greener pastures.  Just remember the grass is always greener right above the septic tank.  Good luck. 

Passion,

  I understand the situation you are in and as a HS baseball coach, I understand what you are going through.  This is about the journey, and not the ring.  When we started this journey we did it because we loved baseball and wanted to help players.  After awhile that wore off and we are left wondering, why not us?  How did so and so win it?  It especially burns when you get close and when you see guys cheating.  I have found myself in very similar situations and have gotten so close but never got that ring.  All I can say is, stay the course and enjoy the journey.  If you ever want to talk understand I know what you are going through and you can PM any time.

I think one of the hardest things about coaching high school level players is getting them to put aside their individual goals for the team goals.  Like, telling a kid to not worry about college baseball and enjoy your time as a high school player is tough sell.  These kids now a days with these expensive travel teams and showcases worry about the future instead of trying to win a championship in high school.  I think that is one of the biggest hurdles in getting the kids to buy into one goal of getting to the state tournament.  And another hurdle is getting kids to buy into their role on the team because we all know that every parent thinks their kid should be starting and not just be a role player and then the kids gets upset when they don't play as much as they think they should.  At least that is what I noticed even though I clearly state to every kid and parent what their current role on the team is before the season starts. lol.

I am going to go the opposite way as most here.  I understand your desire.  I respect that desire and if that is what will make you whole go for it without guilt.  I would hope it goes without saying that we all do the best we can for the kids we coach.   But guess what?  There are kids who are good kids and need your help at that better program too!  I will say though if you are comfortable at your school (assuming you teach also) be very careful about moving.  When I switched schools after a good run at one I have regretted it ever since.  My advice would be more towards get out and recruit!!  Why are people so hung up on recruiting being bad?  Rules or no rules this is america.  People should have freedom of choice.  If you can convince them your program is right for them and they want to come over then good for you.  Are you at a private school or a state where there is choice?  If so go out and build your program!

High school teams tend to be as good as the rec leagues that feed them; and, some of the most successful high school coaches I've known over the years have put a great deal of effort into assisting and supporting the rec leagues that send players up to them. Most have done so as a long-term effort; helping them make incremental improvements over time that steadily improved the quality of player they produced.

 

The coaches do so in a variety of ways; but, it begins in establishing a close relationship with the rec league officials who are directly responsible for baseball at each local league. If you're not currently involved with them, I'd recommend that you sit down with them and make an assessment of what each needs. Chances are, there will be elements of their program that you'll be able to help them improve.

 

The better they are, the better your team becomes. Dedicated effort on this front will pay you long-term dividends. I've seen it in a number of cases.

To your other point in the game of baseball I think for the most part team and individual goals do not clash.  Yes I get that maybe a kid wants to play short and you may feel he is better suited for second.  But really it doesn't much matter.  When he goes to his Showcases he can give them whatever position he wants.  And regardless its not going to change his positional velocity his 60 time his exit velocity or any other number they look at.  So I think a player's number one goal should be to get to the next level.  But I don't think that negatively impacts the team.  As parents I would hope there is not a single one of us who would rather see their son win a hs state championship than get a four year full ride to a D1 school (unless of course your son doesn't want to play college ball in the first place).  As a coach we have to have their future as number one goal also but do all we can to win along the way.  And I think the answer for both is get better players!

       
       

Amen to this also!

I think this is very true.  Another thing the OP should consider is getting into travel ball, if he's not already.  He could help the best of those 12U and under rec players develop in the fall and summer, and also get his HS team culture started early.  Around here, HS coaches with successful travel teams have players transfer into their schools, not out of them.

A buddy of mine that I went to high school with has had this same dilemma. For the past 5 years he was the head coach at a high school in the same conference as the one where my kids have gone.

 

The team he coached has had zero talent until recently. They currently have a D1 committed pitcher, and a couple of good high school level players. After that it falls off the table in terms of talent and experience. But he craftily managed his pitcher's starts and was able to put up .400 winning percentages the past couple of years. And that's really, really good considering what he had to work with. The pitcher and 2 other good players will graduate this season and then it's back to zero talent the next year and for the foreseeable future.

 

On top of it, the school is among the worst in terms of academic performance. He's a math teacher and has told me some unbelievable stories from the classroom. Lots of discipline issues, students involved in crime, and no parental support. Basically, he couldn't take teaching there any longer, and coaching was one year away from becoming no fun either.

 

So, he switched schools within the conference and is now the assistant baseball coach at a school with a much better baseball program, more talent, and a pipeline of good players in the future. He will also have better students in the classroom and he's much happier now.

 

I apologize and won't have time to truly respond here.  I'll give it a brief try now.  As many know, I was an assistant coach in one of the top programs in America.  We won state titles and were ranked #1 in the nation in both USA Today and Collegiate Baseball.  I coached in a program.  So many coaches say that they build programs but to be honest, they only coach teams.  When I came to my school, I was told that they expected to win but were unsuccessful.  In fact, this school had never won a regional title and very few conference titles.  The facilities were the worst I had ever seen.  The previous coach had coached teams but not built programs.  No knock on him as he was severely limited with resources.  To top that off, this school was 1000 students and had to go through all of the private schools as well as the public schools of 2000 or better.  To be blunt, school size and the belief that other recruited were excuses for failure.  I built a program from the ground up.  I let nothing stand in my way.  Every coach in the system was hand picked by me.  Every thing that they coached was monitored by me.  I did the summer legion program.  I coached, as a volunteer, the middle school kids.  I ran summer camps.  I built a fortune in monies where I purchased the best equipment around.  I built a varsity diamond that was second to none.  I had players move to my school because they wanted to be a part of this.  I didn't have to recruit.  If you are longing for that trip to state and feel that you can't do it at the school you are at then YOU ARE RIGHT.  However, how about having an honest conversation with yourself, see what you have to do to improve your plight, grit your teeth and get after it again and again and again ...  and no matter how many times you get knocked down, you get up.  In doing that, you're going to win something much more important than a state title.  JMHO!

I typed my response quickly and it does seem harsh.  I don't intend to be. 

I'm glad none of the coaches my kids had in our high school have your attitude. We wouldn't have been able to keep coaches. Our high school is on the low end of enrollment in the large school classification. It's also not easy recruiting off the mean streets of the country clubs (four within the district boundaries). At some point in districts we would face a high school with 2,000 more kids. It made getting to states all that much more sweeter when it happened. But there was no way to survive states against all these large schools and Catholics who (wink, wink, it's not true) recruited.

Thanks, Heloise  

A couple of years ago I head an article about legendary NCAA hockey coach Jack Parker from Boston University. He retired two years ago. He did win a few NCAA championships. He sent plenty of players to the pros. But along the journey he was offered several NHL jobs. A pro job is the big ring. A couple of times he was offered the Boston Bruins job. Imagine a being a blue collar kid from Somerville MA being offered the Bruins job. Some kids don't dream that well. 

 

Every time Parker was offered a pro job he had dinner with some of his players to discuss it with them. The players would always say they would be disappointed he left. But go for it. They would understand. Parker never left. 

 

One time a former player walked up to Parker at the athletic complex with his wife and two kids. The player said hello, introduced his family and told the coach he was now a Jr VP of some company. Parker turned to an assistant and explained this is why he never left for the pros. He said every player will always be his family. He would lose that at the next level. He wouldn't be able to impact lives.

 

Just something to think about. 

When my son was in 8th grade a new high school baseball coach was hired. The baseball team had seventeen losing seasons over the previous twenty seasons. The new coach turned it all around. After two losing seasons he's now won three conference titles in six years. The team had had winning records every year. The new coach didn't see a bad situation when he took the job. He saw an under cultivated situation. He got involved in every level of ball from 7th grade to varsity and the 11/12 rec leagues. He started summer camps. He got involved at a local baseball academy (now owns it).

 

The team may never win states for reasons I stated in a previous post. But no one looks at the schedule, sees the high school and puts a mental W next to the game. They're more likely to think, "That could be a loss."

While it may be a little harsh, sometimes harsh is true. 

 

Our local school has a hard time holding good coaches.  It seems the good ones leave for "bigger and better."  The bad ones stay.  Our athletic department falls way short in initiative.  My buddy calls it acceptance of mediocrity.  It's a difficult culture to change.  Building programs takes a lot of extra work.  Some just aren't up to it. 

I could not agree more with most of these thoughts about how to develop a program.  The one thing I might add though is I believe there is an expiration date.  What I mean by this is if you have been in one place and losing too long you will have a very very hard time getting the community to buy in if you try to start something new.  Yes I get that nothing is impossible but lets just go with improbable.  So if ultimately you look in the mirror and decide there are a lot of things you would do differently if you had the chance to start over....  well then maybe you should start over.  Unfortunately this may mean moving too.  Hard to come in and get instant respect if you make a move within a community that views your career as less than successful.  Got to ask yourself if it is worth it.  Does it mean that much to you?  If the answer is yes then go for it.

So your coaching to get a throphy?

sounds like you need it so u don't see yourself as a failure.

trophies imo r overrated. Fun, exciting to WIN, but they sit on a shelf. 

I would rather be the coach who Dev players so those that want can go to next level

being a positive influence in players life is what it's all about IMO.

your not coaching Pro its HS. our state winner last yr only had two players who went on to play at next level. some D1 players move on but are on HS teams that r not that great.

The state ring is fun to dream about,  if that's all u want, then move on.

I just really think this guy is getting beat up way too bad.  I realize it is PC to say that a coach shouldn't have winning his own 'trophy' as an important goal.  But come on what other occupation is purely altruistic?   If a sales guy wants to win a sales trip and not just 'serve his customers to the best of his ability' is it bad?  If a doctor does it for the money and not necessarily to 'save lives' is that unusual?  I get that we hold teachers/coaches to a different standard but lets take it easy on this guy a little.  Is it wrong for him to have some goals for his own personal achievement?  Why since he really would like to win a state championship do we assume he doesn't care deeply about his players and be an outstanding role model for them?  Maybe he is and maybe he isn't I don't know the man.  But lets not be so quick to assume because he has some personal goals he is some sort of bad guy.

My suggestion is to read CoachB25 and Prepster's comments carefully.

 

Winning is done long before they take the high school field for you. By going elsewhere where you might win that ring, you are just joining or replacing someone who has already done the work.

 

I took two college jobs, both were absolutely terrible programs for many years. A combination of recruiting, preparation, and desire changed all of that.  

 

If you don't think you can win where your at, how the hell are your players thinking? Do you know who all the young baseball players are in your school district? Are they learning the game?

 

Failing to prepare is preparing for failure. Programs are not built by accident!

It depends on what you want to do. Do you want to build something? Or do you want to attempt to continue something someone else built? I took over a HS program that had not went to the state playoffs in over 15 years. Had not had a player play college baseball in over 10 years. In fact it really wasn't a program at all it was glorified rec ball. The players showed up for the first time on the first day of tryouts. They went through the motions and got drilled game in and game out. And the funny thing is no one cared. It was just accepted as that's the way it was there. They got exactly out of the program what was put into it. A losing mentality and a losing record.

 

I was determined to build a program. To change the culture of the entire community. I was determined if you were going to wear that communities jersey you were going to earn the right to wear it. It was going to mean something to you because you were going to have to pay a price to wear it. And if I only had 9 players that were willing to pay that price then we would go to war with those 9. And if we only had 6 we would work all year and find 3 more by the next season.

 

My first year I went to every rec league in the area. I talked to the coaches and held clinics. I went to work on the facilities and got other people to assist me. I started a fall program. I went to the Middle Schools and invited them to come and be a part of our fall works outs. My first year we had 26 players tryout for Varsity and JV. We ended up with just a Varsity. We had 16 players on the team. Of the 10 cut 7 were Sr's and 2 were Jr's. None of them attended the fall workouts. None of them wanted to work hard. None of them wanted to practice on Saturdays. None of them wanted to invest because they never had to in the past. Players cut included the President of the Booster Club son, Basketball Coaches son, one of my best friends son and starters from the previous seasons team. And yes I spent some time in the AD's office with angry parents. And yes they didn't like me. And yes I didn't care.

 

We went to work. We focused on being great. Great in all the things it takes no more talent to be great at than you already have. Base running, bunt defense, bunt offense, cut game, 1st and 3rd game, holding runners, producing quality at bats. Making the routine play on a routine basis. And being mentally tough. We won the conference and advanced to the state playoffs. And 3 guys went on to play college baseball.

 

That was just the start of the building of the program. That summer I started a summer program. It was five days a week for 3 hours a day. It focused on strength and conditioning, proper throwing mechanics, hitting, etc. I invited every kid in the community to attend. There was no charge. I had 50 to 60 kids there every day.

 

From there on out we never finished less that 2nd place in the conference. Winning multiple championships. Every single player that wanted to play in college did in fact play in college. At every level. Players were drafted and scouts started calling me to ask me who we had that year. College coaches started calling asking me who we had that year. The entire communtity started showing up at our games home and away. The rec league kids lining up on the fence after the game to get the players autographs. Rec league players wearing their uniforms to our games. Running the bases after the games.

 

I started a summer camp for the players in the community. Our players and former players worked the camps. I stayed long enough to see our 6 and 7 year old campers play for me. I meant something to play there. It was a big deal. That jersey was special. You fought for it. You bled for it.

 

I guess you either want to build it or inherit it. My players built it with a little guidance. I wouldnt take anything for it. Now one of my former players coaches it and he is doing a great job of carrying on what he helped build. And he continues to build upon the foundation layed by his former team mates.

Your sitting in your living room watching a football game. The door opens up and a couple of guys come in. One stops by the frig and grabs a couple of cokes. The other is in the pantry looking for chips. The wife yells "Hey boys!" "You guys want me to fix you something?" No Ms Rhonda were fine where's coach? "You know where he is." You look up and its two of your former players. They give you a big hug and sit down and watch the game with you.

 

You get a text in the middle of the night because he plays on the west coast. "Hey Coach I struggled tonight, pulling off the ball I guess. Hey just wanted to tell you I love you."

 

You get a call in the middle of the night "Hey Coach. Can I come over and talk to you?" Sure man. "Coach I need some advice." Come on over son.

 

I could go on and on. Did I mention anything about a State Championship? Nothing and I mean nothing will ever touch the relationships built. Nothing. I have so many son's. I thank God for giving me the opportunity to have them. They are so special. I love them so much. No ring will ever hug you. Ever tell you it loves you. Ever comfort you in a time of need. It's about the relationships built. It's about helping young men become men. It's about helping them reach for the stars. And being there for them when they come down to earth. And trust me hearing them come in the door means more to me than it ever will to them.

If a sales guy wants to win a sales trip and not just 'serve his customers to the best of his ability' is it bad? If a doctor does it for the money and not necessarily to 'save lives' is that unusual?

 

Yes,  it is bad. If the sales guy serves his customers well the trips fall into place. The same is true about baseball and winning. I hope I'm never operated on by this doctor. I want the one with a passion for what he does. When a coach/person gets confused about how the process works they are less likely to be successful.

Coach May's posts are the more high school specific versions of the Jack Parker story I posted. As a coach I'd rather be Coach May than a guy sitting at home admiring a trophy on the shelf. As kids I've coached in baseball and basketball graduate from college I've run into some who said playing for me was some of the best fun they had growing up. That's a trophy!

Listen here is my bottom line and then I am out of this one since I really don't have a dog in this fight.  I have coached at two state championship schools when I was younger and I came out of coaching retirement and now coach at a school with little or no history of success.  And I am NOT looking to get out.  I want to help make it better so this is not really my fight.  I just think on the one hand we say how helping people (in this case kids) is what it should be all about.  Then on the other hand this guy we don't even personally know who might be the nicest guy in the world for all we know reaches out for a little advice and we crucify him???  Let's just practice what we preach and help the guy out.  Kindly.  I'm out.  Peace.

I don't think anyone is attacking here.  Just providing some perspective. 

 

Success is the result of the approach.  Hopping to "greener pastures" isn't necessarily the answer. 

In my opinion, he came here to ask opinions and that is what he has received.  That is what this site is about.  He is not being crucified at all.  He is hearing from some coaches that have been there and done that.  I know exactly how he feels.  I was told when I came to my present school that it was a "coaching graveyard" where good coaches went to die.  No one could win here.  Then, I fought so many similar battles as others here have discussed.  From there, I built a program.  I had to coach against my former school where, when I was an assistant, we won so many games, regional, sectional, and state championships.  That school is more than twice my size. The day finally came where we overcame and rose above all of the other stuff.  Joliet, I'm guessing you are from the State of Illinois as am I.  I've coached against the best our state has to offer and did so on a consistent basis.  I have tried to share my experience.  The OP can view it how he wishes.  I hope he finds some motivation in the various posts in this thread. 

I suspect there is more to the OP's thought process than just the state championship ring.

 

Without knowing the details, I'm not one to pass judgment.  Maybe he's in a program where he is not receiving support from the school, community or parents. Maybe he's constantly having players he has developed for years poached away by other schools. Maybe he's worn out from busting his butt, and not getting the results.

 

I realize the OP was focused on the state championship issue - but perhaps that's just a part of the equation.

 

How about framing it this way - Despite best efforts to create a winning program, when is it time to throw your hands up and walk away? What would make you say, I can't take any more?

 

Then there is another thing to consider... If you are not truly happy where you are coaching, are you doing the program a disservice by staying?  If you come to the point where you can no longer put your heart into the team, wouldn't they be better off if you moved on?  If you don't love the program and going out and coaching it every day, there is no way it will ever get your best effort.

 

It doesn't mean you are a bad coach or a bad person, just that you no longer have the passion that the program needs. As long as you can be self aware enough to realize this is the case, I think stepping aside is not only an option - it is the correct option.

 

 

 

 

My opinions are simply that and so, my opinions and roughly $7 will get you an extra value meal at McDonalds. 

 

Rob, I understand your points and I agree that if he can't buy into his school's ability to fulfil his goals then he needs to consider moving on.  In 2006, as a part of the recertification program for coaches of all sports in the State of Illinois, I was asked to give a presentation to the coaches of the county I live in.  I spoke to over 300 coaches of all IHSA Sports that day discussing concepts like building a program.  While many thought that they had attempted to do so, a lot of those coaches came up to me afterwards and talked about some of the points I made.  There was a reason I was asked to speak.  I had taken over infamous programs known for losing and turned them into winning programs.  You are right that you have to have support from the administration and the community.  You also have to realize that no coach is great without the players buying into what they are trying to do.  The girl's basketball team had won 3 games for 10 straight years.  In short, it was a joke.  When I had my first team meeting with all of 12 girls there, I talked about winning the conference, regional and sectional and making it to state.  The girls looked at me like I was crazy.  When I started practice, the parents were up in arms and in the ADs office on a daily basis because I drove the girls too hard.  The administration started walking in to practices to see how hard.  They too questioned if I were sane.  They understood the madness when they looked at my practice plans and the attention to detail few had ever seen including the percentage of times a post player made post moves to the left or right.  When they saw how we practiced running and jumping in our full court press and how hard the girls got after it, they bought into what I was doing.  We won and we won a lot.  I don't expect others to understand the sacrifice, heartache etc.  In fact, I had a huge sign on my classroom that stated only I understood what it takes to win and so, don't change no matter what anyone says.  In baseball, I had an assistant quit the first day of practice.  He didn't know how to win.  He wanted to roll the ball out, have them field a few ground balls and go home.  He knew how to lose.  He couldn't understand what it really takes to win.  I replaced him with a former player from another school who knew how to win. 

 

Well, this post is too long.  I want to say that I don't think I am special or unique.  I think every coach has as much or more ability than I.  What I do have is an incredible belief in what I do and refuse to accept any excuse to lose.  I make sure I surround myself with coaches who feel the same way as well as players who step up the pressure of playing in my program. 

This board is awesome... He came asking for advice and got lots of good advice.

I have two state championship medals and a runner up hanging in my classroom.  However, I have never had a ring.  What states give out rings?

Son won a State in VA.  He got a ring but I am not sure if it came from the school  They got a medal on the field after the game.

I agree you did. But I am referring to his original post.  He knew he would get a reaction.