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I'm pretty sure he bowed out about 6 months or so ago.  There were a couple threads where he was getting beat up pretty badly about issues at Lakepoint and him promoting his company or something along those lines.  I think most of the posters here think that was ridiculous.  Hopefully he still checks in from time to time and sees that there is a need for his perspective and experience.

Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

For a dad who is "trying to learn all I can about the recruiting process" (per profile), his insights on how colleges go about recruiting are invaluable.  The fact that he is the person behind what has turned into the premiere recruiting hub should not really be held against him.  He is way past having to promote much of anything to the general public, much less to this group of what is largely baseball parents.

2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

For a dad who is "trying to learn all I can about the recruiting process" (per profile), his insights on how colleges go about recruiting are invaluable.  The fact that he is the person behind what has turned into the premiere recruiting hub should not really be held against him.  He is way past having to promote much of anything to the general public, much less to this group of what is largely baseball parents.

He wasn’t saying anything that others on this board don’t say, but his view of the importance of PG in the recruitment and drafting of players was a little inflated in my opinion. Sure he’s a nice guy and hope his health is good.

Steve A. posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

Yes, we all know what a treasure Chicago has been as opposed to PG. Just a wealth of information & assistance to parents trying to navigate the experience. Or not.....

It’s undeniable that the amount of PG related posts have gone down...just stating the facts. 

Wow, I know he had mentioned that he may step away....I hope that's not the case.  Anyone who has had a kid go on to play baseball in college has likely gotten some really good info from PG at one time or another over the years....I know I certainly did.   If those of you who are still going thru the recruiting process with your HS'ers have managed to run him off all I can tell you is that it's your loss.  He would answer any questions with regard to recruiting...whether it had anything to do with PG or not.  He knows a lot of people....and has more connections in the college baseball world than probably anyone else in the country.

Steve A. posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

Yes, we all know what a treasure Chicago has been as opposed to PG. Just a wealth of information & assistance to parents trying to navigate the experience. Or not.....

I don’t give recruiting advice or information. I state my opinion, which you are welcome to ignore.

Chicago643 posted:
Steve A. posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

Yes, we all know what a treasure Chicago has been as opposed to PG. Just a wealth of information & assistance to parents trying to navigate the experience. Or not.....

It’s undeniable that the amount of PG related posts have gone down...just stating the facts. 

Uh....it's also February.....and half the country is still covered in snow 

Chicago643 posted:
Steve A. posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

Yes, we all know what a treasure Chicago has been as opposed to PG. Just a wealth of information & assistance to parents trying to navigate the experience. Or not.....

I don’t give recruiting advice or information. I state my opinion, which you are welcome to ignore.

I "liked" your post, or at least the second half of it (couldn't locate the half-like button)

Chicago643 posted:
2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

For a dad who is "trying to learn all I can about the recruiting process" (per profile), his insights on how colleges go about recruiting are invaluable.  The fact that he is the person behind what has turned into the premiere recruiting hub should not really be held against him.  He is way past having to promote much of anything to the general public, much less to this group of what is largely baseball parents.

He wasn’t saying anything that others on this board don’t say, but his view of the importance of PG in the recruitment and drafting of players was a little inflated in my opinion. Sure he’s a nice guy and hope his health is good.

Chicago, where are your kids in the recruiting process?  Are you, or have you been a club coach or HS coach actively involved in the recruiting process?

Gov posted:
Chicago643 posted:
2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

For a dad who is "trying to learn all I can about the recruiting process" (per profile), his insights on how colleges go about recruiting are invaluable.  The fact that he is the person behind what has turned into the premiere recruiting hub should not really be held against him.  He is way past having to promote much of anything to the general public, much less to this group of what is largely baseball parents.

He wasn’t saying anything that others on this board don’t say, but his view of the importance of PG in the recruitment and drafting of players was a little inflated in my opinion. Sure he’s a nice guy and hope his health is good.

Chicago, where are your kids in the recruiting process?  Are you, or have you been a club coach or HS coach actively involved in the recruiting process?

Well I have a feeling that if I tell you my kid is committed to a Power 5 and never attended a PG event you will find a way to say that somehow PG had something to do with that.

PG puts on a great tournament that attracts teams and players. Those tournaments by default bring coaches to recruit. It’s not easy to build, I get it. But PG is also responsible for a lot of kids trying to overthrow and injuring themselves to put a number on a radar, maybe not him personally but the product he hs developed. 

Last edited by Chicago643
Chicago643 posted:
Steve A. posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

Yes, we all know what a treasure Chicago has been as opposed to PG. Just a wealth of information & assistance to parents trying to navigate the experience. Or not.....

I don’t give recruiting advice or information. I state my opinion, which you are welcome to ignore.

Don't worry. I will take that advice. Just FYI. Back when all the turmoil went down (basically over nothing) I did PM him & stress that he should not pack it in as his insight was a true value to the site. I do not know him personally, but his experience & knowledge relating to the topics discussed here were the most beneficial that I could find. Fact is he was tired of having to battle against nonsense, directed by the likes of you, suggesting it was all about promoting PG & making $$ or whatever & now he has possibly moved on & we are left with the valid option of ignoring your advice as a substitute for his insight. So thanks & keep up the great work.

Chicago643 posted:

 But PG is also responsible for a lot of kids trying to overthrow and injuring themselves to put a number on a radar, maybe not him personally but the product he hs developed. 

That's maybe the most ridiculous statement that's ever been posted here.   I can tell you from experience that EVERY time a coach with a gun shows up a kid will try to overthrow to light up the gun, even if it's just in a bullpen at practice.....trust me, I have a D1 pitcher who I watched do it for years.   It doesn't matter if it's at PG event, a HS game where a D3 coach is watching or a junior high game with some crazed dad who went out and bought a pocket radar.  Kids are kids....and velo is velo.  Heck, my son is a junior in college now and  he still does it.....every pitcher does.   To somehow try to blame PG or a PG event for arm injuries is really reaching for reasons to put down a guy and his company.

Chicago, I don't know you and you don't know me.  I don't know PG either.  What I do know is he has helped more than a few people on this site in a personal way.  One poster, RedFishFool, who isn't around much can attest to this personally.  I never got the opinion that Jerry "pushed" PG on anyone.  There are multiple posts that he admits PG is not for every player out there.  His stance was the vast majority of the best player were PG alums.  That is just the fact, not Jerry tooting the PG horn.  He really seemed to be in a no-win situation.  When he would use his PG stats to back up or support a position, he was bashed for promoting his organization.  What's a guy to do?  The man had at least one son that played professional baseball.  He coached at the collegiate level.  He was a professional scout.  All this PRIOR to starting PG.  In fact, PG was started, I believe, to allow kids in the Iowa area a chance to train in the winter to try and level the playing field with the southern players.  I'm quite sure he envisioned a successful business.  Why would ANYONE start a business that he / she hopes will fail or not be successful?  Because his business is super successful, some feel as if he personally is part of the problem of parents spending money on kids that have zero chance to make the next level.  That is such a bogus thought process, in my opinion.  It just seems such a shame to me that an individual with as much experience as Jerry has would be made to feel unwelcome on an internet site.  I would think that a parent that has a high school aged kid that is looking for advice or opinions would highly value a person like Jerry Ford of many other posters on this site that have "been there and done that".  You may not always agree with their advice or see an alternate route as better for your specific circumstance, but that doesn't make their advice any less credible.  These are just my humble opinions, so take them for what they are.  I have ZERO skin in the game with PG.  I am 100% convinced that the PG platform was a HUGE part of my son being where he is today.  So maybe I am slightly biased toward PG.

You are welcome to do what you want. Any question someone poses on here has no lack of valid responses, it’s just that 99% of them aren’t the owners of PG. Does their input have merit - absolutely! Is it the gospel? Hell no! Do they have a conflict of interest? In my opinion yes. If you look at how long PG and others trying to compete with them have “stretched the season” for a baseball player, it is apparent they are trying to generate more revenue. Is that best for the players? Hosting tournaments on dates when kids should be in school is one example. How does this benefit anyone other than PGs bottom line? It sure doesn’t promote the “student” aspect of student athlete. 

Chicago643 posted:
Gov posted:
Chicago643 posted:
2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

For a dad who is "trying to learn all I can about the recruiting process" (per profile), his insights on how colleges go about recruiting are invaluable.  The fact that he is the person behind what has turned into the premiere recruiting hub should not really be held against him.  He is way past having to promote much of anything to the general public, much less to this group of what is largely baseball parents.

He wasn’t saying anything that others on this board don’t say, but his view of the importance of PG in the recruitment and drafting of players was a little inflated in my opinion. Sure he’s a nice guy and hope his health is good.

Chicago, where are your kids in the recruiting process?  Are you, or have you been a club coach or HS coach actively involved in the recruiting process?

Well I have a feeling that if I tell you my kid is committed to a Power 5 and never attended a PG event you will find a way to say that somehow PG had something to do with that.

PG puts on a great tournament that attracts teams and players. Those tournaments by default bring coaches to recruit. It’s not easy to build, I get it. But PG is also responsible for a lot of kids trying to overthrow and injuring themselves to put a number on a radar, maybe not him personally but the product he hs developed. 

Nope, and I know a number of players like that....

This might not be a good site for you.

Just an aside. I did not always agree 100% with PG & he did not always agree with me. I posted on here that I thought the turf mounds at Lakepoint were awful and dangerous. I stand by that. He responded & there was a discussion for everyone to see & chip in on. We do not always have to agree. This is fine. But to accuse the guy of simply being a shill for his company when the vast evidence, thousands of posts offering information & insight, is in direct opposition to a $$ theory is just a quest to ignore the facts & stir it up for no valid reason.

Apparently he had enough & perhaps moved on. I hope it is otherwise.

 

Chicago643 posted:
Gov posted:
Chicago643 posted:
2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

I think it’s more telling that in his absence there have been waaay fewer posts about PG tournaments and showcases. 

For a dad who is "trying to learn all I can about the recruiting process" (per profile), his insights on how colleges go about recruiting are invaluable.  The fact that he is the person behind what has turned into the premiere recruiting hub should not really be held against him.  He is way past having to promote much of anything to the general public, much less to this group of what is largely baseball parents.

He wasn’t saying anything that others on this board don’t say, but his view of the importance of PG in the recruitment and drafting of players was a little inflated in my opinion. Sure he’s a nice guy and hope his health is good.

Chicago, where are your kids in the recruiting process?  Are you, or have you been a club coach or HS coach actively involved in the recruiting process?

Well I have a feeling that if I tell you my kid is committed to a Power 5 and never attended a PG event you will find a way to say that somehow PG had something to do with that.

PG puts on a great tournament that attracts teams and players. Those tournaments by default bring coaches to recruit. It’s not easy to build, I get it. But PG is also responsible for a lot of kids trying to overthrow and injuring themselves to put a number on a radar, maybe not him personally but the product he hs developed. 

Chicago643 posted:

You are welcome to do what you want. Any question someone poses on here has no lack of valid responses, it’s just that 99% of them aren’t the owners of PG. Does their input have merit - absolutely! Is it the gospel? Hell no! Do they have a conflict of interest? In my opinion yes. If you look at how long PG and others trying to compete with them have “stretched the season” for a baseball player, it is apparent they are trying to generate more revenue. Is that best for the players? Hosting tournaments on dates when kids should be in school is one example. How does this benefit anyone other than PGs bottom line? It sure doesn’t promote the “student” aspect of student athlete. 

Bottom line is, you can't sell what people won't buy. People make the choice to buy it. Perfect Game doesn't force anyone to do anything. And I think when someone with the screen name PGStaff posts about Perfect Game, we all should be pretty capable of knowing that there might be a bias in favor of PG, and we all should be pretty capable of taking that bias into account when weighing his advice.

It's not his job to do what's best for our kids. It's his job to give us options and opportunities. It's our job to decide which ones are best for our kids.

 

Chicago643 posted:

Apologize for PG much guys? Geesh! Maybe he left because he doesn't like criticism. If you don't like criticism, a public message board may not be the place for HIM, if his skin is that thin.

"Apologize for PG" - really?  More like apologize to PG for most of the crap folks send his way when they feel like blaming someone.  Apologize to him in hopes that he actually sticks around and keeps passing along his knowledge.  The thing is, a lot of us have thin skins - in that we are working alongside our sons trying to help them reach their goals.  We often lose sight of whose goals they are (or turn into) and we often don't always work in their best interest.  PG's skin thickness doesn't matter to me if I think he is a valuable resource.  Maybe he has developed some thin skin when if comes to abuse, but who could blame him.  This site is not for folks to test their mettle and go head to head with actual experts and see if they can't shout them down.  If you think so, then maybe your are on the wrong site as GOV pointed out.

Why are you on this site?  If your are hear solely to voice your opinion when you disagree, please leave.  If you wish to learn and/or contribute, please stick around and try harder.

Perfect Game provides a menu of opportunities for players of many ages to play. You, as a player / parent get to engage your brain to determine what to select from the menu, or not.

To suggest PG has a quest to crush kids arms with overuse would be equivalent to suggesting McDonalds is on a quest to Make America Fat Again by simply existing & having a menu.  Their job (PG) is to sell tournaments & opportunities. Can you overuse & cause harm ? Yes. McDonalds wants to sell Big Macs. Can you eat too many ? Yes. It's called America / freedom.   

2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

Apologize for PG much guys? Geesh! Maybe he left because he doesn't like criticism. If you don't like criticism, a public message board may not be the place for HIM, if his skin is that thin.

"Apologize for PG" - really?  More like apologize to PG for most of the crap folks send his way when they feel like blaming someone.  Apologize to him in hopes that he actually sticks around and keeps passing along his knowledge.  The thing is, a lot of us have thin skins - in that we are working alongside our sons trying to help them reach their goals.  We often lose sight of whose goals they are (or turn into) and we often don't always work in their best interest.  PG's skin thickness doesn't matter to me if I think he is a valuable resource.  Maybe he has developed some thin skin when if comes to abuse, but who could blame him.  This site is not for folks to test their mettle and go head to head with actual experts and see if they can't shout them down.  If you think so, then maybe your are on the wrong site as GOV pointed out.

Why are you on this site?  If your are hear solely to voice your opinion when you disagree, please leave.  If you wish to learn and/or contribute, please stick around and try harder.

oh, you seem to be the gatekeeper, eh? Who died and left you in charge?

Chicago643 posted:
2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

Apologize for PG much guys? Geesh! Maybe he left because he doesn't like criticism. If you don't like criticism, a public message board may not be the place for HIM, if his skin is that thin.

"Apologize for PG" - really?  More like apologize to PG for most of the crap folks send his way when they feel like blaming someone.  Apologize to him in hopes that he actually sticks around and keeps passing along his knowledge.  The thing is, a lot of us have thin skins - in that we are working alongside our sons trying to help them reach their goals.  We often lose sight of whose goals they are (or turn into) and we often don't always work in their best interest.  PG's skin thickness doesn't matter to me if I think he is a valuable resource.  Maybe he has developed some thin skin when if comes to abuse, but who could blame him.  This site is not for folks to test their mettle and go head to head with actual experts and see if they can't shout them down.  If you think so, then maybe your are on the wrong site as GOV pointed out.

Why are you on this site?  If your are hear solely to voice your opinion when you disagree, please leave.  If you wish to learn and/or contribute, please stick around and try harder.

oh, you seem to be the gatekeeper, eh? Who died and left you in charge?

Common sense did.

ironhorse posted:
Chicago643 posted:
2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

Apologize for PG much guys? Geesh! Maybe he left because he doesn't like criticism. If you don't like criticism, a public message board may not be the place for HIM, if his skin is that thin.

"Apologize for PG" - really?  More like apologize to PG for most of the crap folks send his way when they feel like blaming someone.  Apologize to him in hopes that he actually sticks around and keeps passing along his knowledge.  The thing is, a lot of us have thin skins - in that we are working alongside our sons trying to help them reach their goals.  We often lose sight of whose goals they are (or turn into) and we often don't always work in their best interest.  PG's skin thickness doesn't matter to me if I think he is a valuable resource.  Maybe he has developed some thin skin when if comes to abuse, but who could blame him.  This site is not for folks to test their mettle and go head to head with actual experts and see if they can't shout them down.  If you think so, then maybe your are on the wrong site as GOV pointed out.

Why are you on this site?  If your are hear solely to voice your opinion when you disagree, please leave.  If you wish to learn and/or contribute, please stick around and try harder.

oh, you seem to be the gatekeeper, eh? Who died and left you in charge?

Common sense did.

Look, can we just address the elephant in the room? PG has as many people who doesn't like the business model, or the monetizing of the college baseball recruiting process as those who feel your kids are where they are because of PG. Your kid is where he is because of your kid, not a tournament promoter.

ironhorse posted:
Chicago643 posted:
2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

Apologize for PG much guys? Geesh! Maybe he left because he doesn't like criticism. If you don't like criticism, a public message board may not be the place for HIM, if his skin is that thin.

"Apologize for PG" - really?  More like apologize to PG for most of the crap folks send his way when they feel like blaming someone.  Apologize to him in hopes that he actually sticks around and keeps passing along his knowledge.  The thing is, a lot of us have thin skins - in that we are working alongside our sons trying to help them reach their goals.  We often lose sight of whose goals they are (or turn into) and we often don't always work in their best interest.  PG's skin thickness doesn't matter to me if I think he is a valuable resource.  Maybe he has developed some thin skin when if comes to abuse, but who could blame him.  This site is not for folks to test their mettle and go head to head with actual experts and see if they can't shout them down.  If you think so, then maybe your are on the wrong site as GOV pointed out.

Why are you on this site?  If your are hear solely to voice your opinion when you disagree, please leave.  If you wish to learn and/or contribute, please stick around and try harder.

oh, you seem to be the gatekeeper, eh? Who died and left you in charge?

Common sense did.

Too funny. Iron, please change name to "Gatekeeper."

2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

Apologize for PG much guys? Geesh! Maybe he left because he doesn't like criticism. If you don't like criticism, a public message board may not be the place for HIM, if his skin is that thin.

"Apologize for PG" - really?  More like apologize to PG for most of the crap folks send his way when they feel like blaming someone.  Apologize to him in hopes that he actually sticks around and keeps passing along his knowledge.  The thing is, a lot of us have thin skins - in that we are working alongside our sons trying to help them reach their goals.  We often lose sight of whose goals they are (or turn into) and we often don't always work in their best interest.  PG's skin thickness doesn't matter to me if I think he is a valuable resource.  Maybe he has developed some thin skin when if comes to abuse, but who could blame him.  This site is not for folks to test their mettle and go head to head with actual experts and see if they can't shout them down.  If you think so, then maybe your are on the wrong site as GOV pointed out.

Why are you on this site?  If your are hear solely to voice your opinion when you disagree, please leave.  If you wish to learn and/or contribute, please stick around and try harder.

Hi Officer.....Having a nice day?

 

Chicago643 posted:
ironhorse posted:
Chicago643 posted:
2017LHPscrewball posted:
Chicago643 posted:

Apologize for PG much guys? Geesh! Maybe he left because he doesn't like criticism. If you don't like criticism, a public message board may not be the place for HIM, if his skin is that thin.

"Apologize for PG" - really?  More like apologize to PG for most of the crap folks send his way when they feel like blaming someone.  Apologize to him in hopes that he actually sticks around and keeps passing along his knowledge.  The thing is, a lot of us have thin skins - in that we are working alongside our sons trying to help them reach their goals.  We often lose sight of whose goals they are (or turn into) and we often don't always work in their best interest.  PG's skin thickness doesn't matter to me if I think he is a valuable resource.  Maybe he has developed some thin skin when if comes to abuse, but who could blame him.  This site is not for folks to test their mettle and go head to head with actual experts and see if they can't shout them down.  If you think so, then maybe your are on the wrong site as GOV pointed out.

Why are you on this site?  If your are hear solely to voice your opinion when you disagree, please leave.  If you wish to learn and/or contribute, please stick around and try harder.

oh, you seem to be the gatekeeper, eh? Who died and left you in charge?

Common sense did.

Look, can we just address the elephant in the room? PG has as many people who doesn't like the business model, or the monetizing of the college baseball recruiting process as those who feel your kids are where they are because of PG. Your kid is where he is because of your kid, not a tournament promoter.

Chicago, The solution here is simple. You, Chicago, go out & create a superior operation, based upon your principles, & run PG out of business or at least offer a competing experience.

ClevelandDad posted:

I haven't noticed him posting in quite some time.  If I am mistaken about that, someone please let me know and I'll remove this thread.  Hope all is well with him.

Some of us know that Jerry Ford is the primary financial support behind the HSBBW site. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying very close attention.  He hasn't gone anywhere - and if he isn't posting regularly he has his reasons for that - whatever they may be.  But seeing as how you are an administrator on this site it stands to reason that there are many ways you could check in on Jerry Ford that would be more straightforward than this post. So I have to wonder about the intent behind it.  Its not too difficult to predict that a bar fight might break out over this subject  

adbono posted:
ClevelandDad posted:

I haven't noticed him posting in quite some time.  If I am mistaken about that, someone please let me know and I'll remove this thread.  Hope all is well with him.

Some of us know that Jerry Ford is the primary financial support behind the HSBBW site. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying very close attention.  He hasn't gone anywhere - and if he isn't posting regularly he has his reasons for that - whatever they may be.  But seeing as how you are an administrator on this site it stands to reason that there are many ways you could check in on Jerry Ford that would be more straightforward than this post. So I have to wonder about the intent behind it.  Its not too difficult to predict that a bar fight might break out over this subject  

We must go to different bars as this is a pretty low key event compared to my youth...

adbono posted:
ClevelandDad posted:

I haven't noticed him posting in quite some time.  If I am mistaken about that, someone please let me know and I'll remove this thread.  Hope all is well with him.

Some of us know that Jerry Ford is the primary financial support behind the HSBBW site. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying very close attention.  He hasn't gone anywhere - and if he isn't posting regularly he has his reasons for that - whatever they may be.  But seeing as how you are an administrator on this site it stands to reason that there are many ways you could check in on Jerry Ford that would be more straightforward than this post. So I have to wonder about the intent behind it.  Its not too difficult to predict that a bar fight might break out over this subject  

Exactly. Why would PG care to finance and dedicate an inordinate amount of time to this website? Because it is a center of influence, people come here to "learn the ropes." If the site is influenced to a high degree by someone with a business which is predicated upon selling the opportunity to get in front of college coaches, then their word becomes "gospel." People who come to this site share what they learn with others who may not visit it. Most of what has been done by PG isn't bad, and you are right - we all have choices. I just think PG presence on this site is a bit disingenuous.

Steve A. posted:
adbono posted:
ClevelandDad posted:

I haven't noticed him posting in quite some time.  If I am mistaken about that, someone please let me know and I'll remove this thread.  Hope all is well with him.

Some of us know that Jerry Ford is the primary financial support behind the HSBBW site. If you don't know that, you haven't been paying very close attention.  He hasn't gone anywhere - and if he isn't posting regularly he has his reasons for that - whatever they may be.  But seeing as how you are an administrator on this site it stands to reason that there are many ways you could check in on Jerry Ford that would be more straightforward than this post. So I have to wonder about the intent behind it.  Its not too difficult to predict that a bar fight might break out over this subject  

We must go to different bars as this is a pretty low key event compared to my youth...

Well, it hasn't been a low key event on this site and anyone that has been following along knows that. 

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