Is it this list? https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/.../ncbwa/d3baseballcom
Is there a better source? What programs would you say are the best at this level?
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You should go to d3baseball.com and read through the blogs (d3boards.com) and articles on the site.
I would say that the top two programs consistently year in and year out in the West are Trinity and Linfield followed by a tight group right behind them. (CLU, TLU, P-P, PLU, George Fox, etc)
In the East you have Cortland and all of the "UW" schools as well as Christopher Newport and Rowan.
There is an ongoing argument on that board that West teams consistently play a higher level of ball than East teams but don't get to the CWS as much due to the lack of National seeding that happens in D3 ball due to cost constraints by the NCAA. My son played in the West and went to four straight regionals and one CWS and I agree with that, but of course I am biased. Physically the most impressive school I saw was a UW Stephens point team, followed closely by Cortland.
In the end picking a school that matches academics, location, cost is most important, but I will say that my son had a lot more fun playing for a winning D3 program than a middle of the road D1 program that never made the post season. Playoff baseball has a dynamic that can't be duplicated during the regular season.
Best of luck.
If I was sure my kid was going to go D3 I would focus on the best possible academic situation. I would use baseball to possibly get into a school the kid might not otherwise get accepted. Unless a kid is a stud, top ten round potential pick the thought process should be geared to a forty year plan. This means even most D1 prospects should be thinking forty year plan.
RJM is dead on. Look at it this way, would you rather see your kid go to one of the top 10 schools on that list, or would you rather seem him go to a school like Caltech, which I know without looking is near the bottom?
But you can try to have both, to a certain extent. We have a user who, before his kid's baseball career came to an end, tried to aggregate baseball quality and academic quality on one list. It's pretty good.
Thanks to all for everything shared so far! It's appreciated.
I hear what some are saying about pick the best college, etc. But, here's a "what if" and a "guess" to factor it on the topic.
"What if" the kid in question is a better baseball player than he is a student. Maybe he's a D1 talent, or, close to it, or with striking distance of being a D1 player, but, he's not a "D1 student" and all the extra work, incentives, tutoring, etc., is not going to get him there. Maybe is has a learning disability and is a special education/IEP student? But, he's a very good baseball player. And, it's his dream to play college baseball because he wants to experience college baseball. Further, while getting a degree in college should always be the goal in attending college, playing college baseball and maybe leveraging that later in life is MAYBE, ALMOST, just as important to him as getting that 4-year degree?
I would "guess" that there are some D3 programs that are actually better than some D1 programs in terms of BASEBALL. Yeah, Princeton is a D1. And, it's the best education that anyone could ever dream for their child. And, the Princeton baseball program is fine. But, I would "guess" that there's some D3 baseball programs that are heads and shoulders above that of Princeton JUST FOR A BASEBALL PERSPECTIVE.
I can't imagine that it's hard to fathom there are many kids out there who are bright, etc., and capable of attending school after High School who are not "D1 students" but may have the baseball skills and the desire to play baseball in college. I would think that D3 is the answer for them? Or, maybe it's not? I don't know. That's why I floated out the OP for discussion.
Francis7 posted:
I would "guess" that there are some D3 programs that are actually better than some D1 programs in terms of BASEBALL. Yeah, Princeton is a D1. And, it's the best education that anyone could ever dream for their child. And, the Princeton baseball program is fine. But, I would "guess" that there's some D3 baseball programs that are heads and shoulders above that of Princeton JUST FOR A BASEBALL PERSPECTIVE.
Well, let's see, in 2016 there were 7 Princeton guys who appeared in the majors that year (4 this past year, but 2016 was a high water mark for them): Chris Young, Ross Ohlendorf, Matt Bowman, David Hale, Danny Bowman, Will Venable, and John Ryan Murphy. Is there a D3 program that does that? In the last three years Princeton's RPI has been 123, 117, 187, and 269, so the average is 174 . . . out of 300 D1 baseball programs. Are there D3 programs better than 125 D1 programs?
I get what you're saying. But players should choose a school based on three things. Choosing a school that will further his baseball career, choosing the best academic school possible, or choosing the school where you will walk away with the least amount of debt.
D3 schools are often harder to get accepted to than D1s, especially in the Northeast. It is easier to get into a state school than the majority of D3 schools north of Delaware. On top of that. D3s aren't giving much leeway in admissions like the D1s are. If academics are an issue for whatever reason and you still want baseball money. D2 and Jucos would be my suggestion. So there really is no such thing as D1 student.
As for the whole dream aspect. Not every college athlete is going to further his career. Only the top 1/2 of D1 programs (P5 and similar talent), top 10% of D2 programs (UTampa, UCSD) , top Flight Jucos (Chipola, San Jacinto) have multiple kids in their program with a real chance to advance beyond college ball ***Obviously there are exceptions and those numbers are very rough estimates*** But if you are not in those categories, and your kid just wants to play college baseball why not try to use baseball to get into a school he might not have been accepted to without baseball?
Also there are some D3 teams that can probably beat Princeton. But how many are head and shoulders above Princeton? Probably less than 10
There’s no such thing as a D1 or D3 college academically. You can find equally challenging or easy academic situations at each level. The only effect on academics would be the longer D1 schedule.
You won’t find any D3 programs better than Princeton baseball. A top D3 program with a stud pitcher who is a legit pro prospect might be able to keep the D3 in the game. After that it’s all over for the D3.
I was privy to a conversation to this effect. The question in 2009 was, “Could 2008 D3 national champion Trinity (CT) compete with Harvard (10-30).”
The conversation took place at a Boston College - Harvard baseball game the following year. One of the baseball dads in the conversation was college teammates and still friends with the Trinity coach (Bill Decker who is now the Harvard coach). He asked Decker the question.
The response was with Tim Kiely on the mound we could stay in the game. After that, we’re toast.
Kiely was a late bloomer throwing 90+ by senior year with incredible command (3 walks in 90+ innings). He made it to AAA with the Angels.
There are a handful of really bad D1 programs good D3 teams could beat on a regular basis. But there aren’t many. Think back about ten years with Coppin State.
https://coppinstatesports.com/...ason_Stats.pdf?id=30
If a kid has learning issues he’s probably better off at a D3/small college for less outside distractions.
PABaseball posted:Also there are some D3 teams that can probably beat Princeton. But how many are head and shoulders above Princeton? Probably less than 10
See above. I mean no disrespect to D3 baseball, but I would be very surprised if there are 10 D3 programs that if they played in Division 1, their RPI would be in the top half of D1. Actually, I would be very surprised if there are any. Just out of curiosity, I looked up some of the schools listed above -- Trinity, Cal Lu, Wisconsin Stevens Point and Cortland -- to see if they have any recent MLB players and I couldn't find any. That doesn't mean that they're not strong programs . . .
Now, on any given day, could team x beat team y? Sure, it's baseball.
Re: D3 v. D1
This conversation at the same game sums up what happens just in D1 v. D1. It applies to the D3 v. D1 conversation.
The Boston College pitcher was mowing down Harvard. Yet in every ACC opportunity he was wild and got pounded.
The pitcher’s father bitched when he’s facing lesser non league competition he goes at them and mows them over. When he faces ACC teams he picks at the strike zone, walk hitters or gets behind in the count, throws meat and gets hammered.
The non pro prospect D3 stud pitcher is probably going to have the same issues facing even a mediocre to poor D1 lineup. Yes, there are some potential mid major D1 players in some D3 lineups. But it’s a couple of guys not the whole lineup.
2019Dad posted:PABaseball posted:Also there are some D3 teams that can probably beat Princeton. But how many are head and shoulders above Princeton? Probably less than 10
See above. I mean no disrespect to D3 baseball, but I would be very surprised if there are 10 D3 programs that if they played in Division 1, their RPI would be in the top half of D1. Actually, I would be very surprised if there are any. Just out of curiosity, I looked up some of the schools listed above -- Trinity, Cal Lu, Wisconsin Stevens Point and Cortland -- to see if they have any recent MLB players and I couldn't find any. That doesn't mean that they're not strong programs . . .
Now, on any given day, could team x beat team y? Sure, it's baseball.
I agree. That number is closer to 0 than 10. I figured there are 2 or 3 that could probably beat them soundly, but that could also be a stretch.
2019Dad posted:PABaseball posted:Also there are some D3 teams that can probably beat Princeton. But how many are head and shoulders above Princeton? Probably less than 10
See above. I mean no disrespect to D3 baseball, but I would be very surprised if there are 10 D3 programs that if they played in Division 1, their RPI would be in the top half of D1. Actually, I would be very surprised if there are any. Just out of curiosity, I looked up some of the schools listed above -- Trinity, Cal Lu, Wisconsin Stevens Point and Cortland -- to see if they have any recent MLB players and I couldn't find any. That doesn't mean that they're not strong programs . . .
Now, on any given day, could team x beat team y? Sure, it's baseball.
I remember hearing about how Amherst beat Dartmouth a few years back. The Dartmouth HC in his "spirited" post game chat with his team said something to the effect of "A number of those players wish they were in your shoes, and I said no to every one of them."
So, if I'm reading this all correct, the gap between D3 and D1 is something like Double A and the Majors?
Francis7 I am not sure where your going with this, IMO playing college baseball is not anywhere near as important as getting a college degree. College baseball is hard, really hard, and when you add in the academic requirements it's really really really hard. If a student is borderline academically then he better focus on academics exclusively because he will be cut in the fall if he cannot maintain an acceptable GPA. RJM is right the forty year plan is what is important. If he wants to play college ball and is borderline academically or has a learning disability - get on the club team. 5 years after graduating a degree and job opportunities are what is important, baseball memories will fade away.
As far as categorization you can not broad brush college baseball programs, a Power 5 school is light years better than a RPI 150 school. I have also seen D3 college teams that could not beat a good HS team and I have seen a few D3 teams that could easily compete with mid range D1 conferences. I would say that the range of baseball is D3 is much wider than D1 with the top 25 teams quite good and then a big drop off after that.
Francis7 posted:So, if I'm reading this all correct, the gap between D3 and D1 is something like Double A and the Majors?
Only in the respect that *many* D3 players wish they were playing D1 baseball and *all* AA players hope to get to MLB. Some players go directly from AA to MLB, or with only a short stint in AAA ball.
So no, I think the gap is wider between D3(low) and D1(CWS winners). Personally, watched my son at his first spring training hit a triple off a MLB pitcher in a game. The funnel gets very narrow at the top, or the higher you go.
BOF mentioned Christopher Newport University in Virginia. It is a D3 state school with state tuition, with very good baseball and facilities. (Mary Washington is another in Virginia that is D3 and a state university, but the baseball is not at good as CNU at this juncture. Mary Washington IS a very good school, however, and use to be part of the University of Virginia back in the day.)
If I was sure my kid was going to go D3 I would focus on the best possible academic situation.
This does not mean find a high academic. It means find the best academic situation for your son’s future. Baseball comes second. Somewhere in the perspective list will probably be a college that is also a baseball fit.
Whoa, I just checked the link from the OP and there are FOUR Virginia schools on that list of 25!
A related question to all this: For the HS kid who has way above average relative baseball talent but who will not have the grades, GPA, SAT/ACT to play D1 baseball, what happens with them after HS? Or, maybe better phrased, what should be the best path for them to follow after HS?
The bar is very low from the NCAA for D1 athletics. If a kid can't meet that level, they really should be just focusing on school work.
Outside of that there is the JUCO, and NAIA route.
nycdad posted:The bar is very low from the NCAA for D1 athletics. If a kid can't meet that level, they really should be just focusing on school work.
I wondered about that. On one hand, you hear that you have to be a D1 student to be a D1 ball player. And, I recall someone at Vandy once saying the best way to make Vandy is to have a 4.0 GPA. But, on the flip side, my son trains with a lot of D1 players. And, to be candid, none of them exactly come across as scholars.
I mean, Kevin Millar went to Lamar University…right?
Obviously depends on the school, and I don't know any D1, D2, or D3 that has such low standards as the NCAA (i'm sure they exist).
You need to meet the schools admission requirements. Go to prepscholar.com and look up schools. Vandy is on one end, and then there are D1 schools that require something above having a pulse. (850 SATs, etc).
Surprised that several excellent d3 schools were not on the list..Salisbury being one.
UMass Boston always ranks very highly among D3s.
It's tougher to get into a lot of D3's than it is to get into D1's....especially some state schools. That being said, regardless of if it's D1, D2 or D3 if a HS kid is already having grade issues, the jump to college is going to be tough enough.....then throw in the time committment for baseball and he's looking at serious problems right from the start. JUCO to work on grades/time management, etc may be the best option then look to go to a bigger school after a year or two if he shows he can handle the academic side
Francis7 posted:A related question to all this: For the HS kid who has way above average relative baseball talent but who will not have the grades, GPA, SAT/ACT to play D1 baseball, what happens with them after HS? Or, maybe better phrased, what should be the best path for them to follow after HS?
Juco. If the schoolwork might be a problem, have him start at a JUCO and see how he does academically, if he can handle the work at a 4 year school. D2 and NAIA are also low academic for the most part.
I don't know how your sons grades are, but there are plenty of D1 schools that are not hard to get into. (Auburn, AZ State, U of Arizona, Kansas, KState, etc). 80%+ acceptance rates (some over 90)
UW's- Oshkosh, Whitewater, and Lacrosse are all consistently high level D3.
Francis, as others said, I think there is some confusion shown in your OP regarding D1 academic standards. They run the gammut just as other divisions do.
There's one thing I don't see mentioned here that may be helpful. You mentioned learning disability... I think what would be critical is to match the student to a school that has a good program for helping with whatever the specific type of disability may be or at least provide sufficient tutor options that may be capable of helping. In my experience, this is more difficult at Big State U. They may have personnel on staff but getting access to these types of things tends to be much more difficult in those settings.
Also already mentioned but there are plenty of NAIA's that have decent baseball programs, don't have stringent academic entry hurdles, are smaller and better at offering tutoring than Big State U and also have baseball money.
CatcherDadNY posted:Surprised that several excellent d3 schools were not on the list..Salisbury being one.
The WSJ/Times College Ranking methodology tends to rank private schools higher than public, especially when you only look at D3 baseball schools. Private will tend to rate better on small classrooms, "reputation", loan defaults, etc. than public. Larger public schools (usually D1) fare better in some of the other criteria (e.g. accredited programmes, research papers per faculty, reputation).
Francis7 posted:Thanks to all for everything shared so far! It's appreciated.
I hear what some are saying about pick the best college, etc. But, here's a "what if" and a "guess" to factor it on the topic.
"What if" the kid in question is a better baseball player than he is a student. Maybe he's a D1 talent, or, close to it, or with striking distance of being a D1 player, but, he's not a "D1 student" and all the extra work, incentives, tutoring, etc., is not going to get him there. Maybe is has a learning disability and is a special education/IEP student? But, he's a very good baseball player. And, it's his dream to play college baseball because he wants to experience college baseball. Further, while getting a degree in college should always be the goal in attending college, playing college baseball and maybe leveraging that later in life is MAYBE, ALMOST, just as important to him as getting that 4-year degree?
I would "guess" that there are some D3 programs that are actually better than some D1 programs in terms of BASEBALL. Yeah, Princeton is a D1. And, it's the best education that anyone could ever dream for their child. And, the Princeton baseball program is fine. But, I would "guess" that there's some D3 baseball programs that are heads and shoulders above that of Princeton JUST FOR A BASEBALL PERSPECTIVE.
I can't imagine that it's hard to fathom there are many kids out there who are bright, etc., and capable of attending school after High School who are not "D1 students" but may have the baseball skills and the desire to play baseball in college. I would think that D3 is the answer for them? Or, maybe it's not? I don't know. That's why I floated out the OP for discussion.
May I suggest that NAIA may also be an option. The description above fits a family friend pretty well. He chose the program because the school specialized in Students like him. It is a state school, so the costs are reasonable, and it gave him the best chance to play and still get a degree. If he would have gone D1 or D3 he may not have been able to stay eligible.
___Edit___
CabbageDad beat me to it.
Francis7 posted:A related question to all this: For the HS kid who has way above average relative baseball talent but who will not have the grades, GPA, SAT/ACT to play D1 baseball, what happens with them after HS? Or, maybe better phrased, what should be the best path for them to follow after HS?
When you say "will not have the grades, GPA, SAT/ACT to play D1 baseball", do you mean won't meet the NCAA requirements for eligibility? If the student can meet the NCAA eligibility criteria, I can almost guarantee you that there are quite a few schools that will admit him. If you need a list, send me a PM.
keewart posted:Whoa, I just checked the link from the OP and there are FOUR Virginia schools on that list of 25!
Yes and the schools run a Gamut, academic wise. From Large Public to small private Liberal Arts. May different types of fits in that list.
If JuCo becomes a viable route Rowan at Gloucester County and Cumberland County in NJ have good baseball programs.
The required SAT scores for NCAA programs depends on the school. Then there’s a sliding scale for talent level. I know a situation where two players were given a different number by the same ranked program. The more of an academic risk a player is the more talent he better have. Coaches are held accountable to the team APR (Academic Progress Rate) score by their school and the NCAA. In this instance the high risk, high talent kid started freshman year but flunked out.
MidAtlanticDad posted:Francis7 posted:A related question to all this: For the HS kid who has way above average relative baseball talent but who will not have the grades, GPA, SAT/ACT to play D1 baseball, what happens with them after HS? Or, maybe better phrased, what should be the best path for them to follow after HS?
When you say "will not have the grades, GPA, SAT/ACT to play D1 baseball", do you mean won't meet the NCAA requirements for eligibility?
More so I meant the kid who has the lower GPA, SAT/ACT, etc., where the coach doesn't want to take the risk on the kid because he might fail out in college.
Updated list of D3 baseball schools with their end of season Massey Ratings averaged over the past 5 years.
Thanks MADad!
FWIW, this isn't baseball specific, but these are the current Director's Cup -- which measures performance in all sports (both men's and women's) -- standings for D1. One of those schools does not give athletic scholarships (though as these standings imply, the no-loan financial aid has eliminated that distinction in many cases)
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Francis7 posted:MidAtlanticDad posted:Francis7 posted:A related question to all this: For the HS kid who has way above average relative baseball talent but who will not have the grades, GPA, SAT/ACT to play D1 baseball, what happens with them after HS? Or, maybe better phrased, what should be the best path for them to follow after HS?
When you say "will not have the grades, GPA, SAT/ACT to play D1 baseball", do you mean won't meet the NCAA requirements for eligibility?
More so I meant the kid who has the lower GPA, SAT/ACT, etc., where the coach doesn't want to take the risk on the kid because he might fail out in college.
Are you just posting hypothetical questions, or is this for your kid? Because you may get different answers depending on your purpose. I'd give a more measured response if I thought it was for someone's kid vs an exercise.....
nycdad posted:Francis7 posted:More so I meant the kid who has the lower GPA, SAT/ACT, etc., where the coach doesn't want to take the risk on the kid because he might fail out in college.
Are you just posting hypothetical questions, or is this for your kid? Because you may get different answers depending on your purpose. I'd give a more measured response if I thought it was for someone's kid vs an exercise.....
Not trying to be flip here, but, "maybe?" and "I dunno?"
My son is a freshmen. He's been in HS now for 3 months. So far, his grades are good. Actually, he's doing even better than I expected considering being new to HS, etc. But, can I tell you that his GPA, SAT, ACT, etc., are going to be where they need to be when it's time to show it to colleges? There's so much road between then and now, anything can happen. I hope it works out. He knows that it's important. And, we support him towards getting all the help he needs with school. But, I can't say he's a lock here. So, maybe it's my kid? But, I can't say for sure that it's him. So, I dunno.'
I can tell you that was my son when he first started HS. However we all knew the potential was there, however things just did not click. Until we took him to Kent States baseball Camp thanksgiving of his Freshman year. Then Kent State Coach, Scott Stricklin, sat all the young men down before the camp started and in no uncertain words, explained how important grades were. He talked about it for a half an hour or so.
After that it clicked for my son. His grades improved. He wanted to play in college and he knew there would be more options open to him if he was a good student. He also started taking a challenging schedule, instead of an easy one. He actually enjoyed school more and met some new friends, with a more academic bent.
I suggest if you have concerns, that you continue to try and motivate him and find what makes it click for him, so he does not become the kid in this thread.
I know this is easier said than done.