Who has tried weighted baseballs???

I must strongly suggest that you stay away from the weighted ball program. I went through the program briefly while in college and felt unusual shoulder stiffness, so I shut it down. I have also watched a few high school and college teammates go down to rotator-cuff surgery after going through the program. While, I can not say with certainty that the weighted ball was the cause of the problem, but I do not want to be the one to find out.

Also, as you previously stated, I agree strongly that the increase in velocity comes fom the throwing program itself, not the weighted ball. My personal velocity increase from a normal long-toss and strength program was equal to my peers that used the weighted balls.

Weighted baseballs breaks the principal of sports specificity. Tennis players don't hit tennis balls filled with pennies, it doesn't translate specifically to the skill performed.

Weighted baseballs are garbage. If you want to get good at something it needs to stay specific to the sport, that can't be argued.

The pitchers with the greatest hip torso separation at foot strike throw the hardest - that is as you said mechanics as well as God given ability because that movement takes a ton of flexibility and timing.

quote:

Stay away from weighted baseballs. They do not increase arm speed which is what is needed for velocity.

That makes sense, funneldrill. Do you have suggestions/drills to help increase arm speed?

We have had several players go through our Speed Thrills program where they have gained velocity with no ill effects. If you have a quality program you WILL get positive results.

First - the weighted program is not just weighted balls. It is also lighter balls as well.

Second - each player gets a fairly specific prescription based on first day testing.

ex. some players have a lot of arm speed and low arm strength. Some are the other way, great strength but no arm speed.

The day one testing determines the area you concentrate on - speed or strength. Once you have brought those two into a closer balance your velocity will increase.

Overtraining and undertraining muscle groups for specific athletic movements has been scientifically proven to increase performance in the specified movement. ex - track stars over/under train on a daily basis to increase running speed. As baseball fans, coaches and parents it is widely acceptable to over/under train for bat speed.

I must respectfully disagree with Funnel. I have video of our players throwing heavier and lighter baseballs with absolutely the same delivery frame for frame.

Question. Is it ok for a quarterback to throw a football? It wieghs more than 5 oz.

The heavier balls are only 2 and 4 oz heavier. Thats 9 oz. A football is 14-15 oz.

A reputable instructor will also have delivery criteria that each player must meet before being allowed to go through the program. The players arm action and delivery must be mechanically sound before we allow them to participate in our program.

Steven Okert from Rowlett came to us and was 79-81 on our stalker. We sharpened and cleaned up his delivery and moved him to 81-83.

He went through our speed thrills program and went from 84 max throw to 91 max throw. He pitched the season between 85-87. Thats a decent upgrade but the real upgrade was, before he would be 80-81 in the first and 77-78 in the late innings. After, he pitched 85-87 in the first and 85-87 in the 7th.

This summer against Carpenter's team in the regional on the TCU gun he was 89 in the first and 89 in the 7th.

Same story for Kindle Ladd. 81-83 before 89 after.
Clayton Woodruff 81-84 before 88 after.
Michael Bolsinger - same
Trent Appleby, Adam Miller, Stuart Slakey - Same.

In the 6 years we have worked the speed thrills program we have had over 70 players run through. The average velocity gain on those 70 is 3-4 mph.

Ok - I yield the floor .... fire away.

I don't know if I agree or disagree with these high tech, costly, and time consuming ways to throw harder. But it seems pretty simple if you ask me...


You want stronger legs, lift more.

You want quicker swing, swing more.

You want stronger arm, throw more.



It's so easy a cave man can do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

quote:

Stay away from weighted baseballs. They do not increase arm speed which is what is needed for velocity.

That makes sense, funneldrill. Do you have suggestions/drills to help increase arm speed?

Lots of long toss and concentrate on the lower body when lifting weights.

quote:

Lots of long toss and concentrate on the lower body when lifting weights.

I understand the benefit of those things, but, I don't see how they help arm speed.

Husker

You will see benifits from long toss and weight training. But as you state, the arm speed specificity element is not addressed with either. Nor is the balance between speed and strength addressed.

Over/under training is the only way to specifically address arm speed.

Once again our program does not concentrate only on speed or strength. While it addresses both, the real key is that it brings them into a closer balance specific to each player. Which will also help to avoid injury.

I will not argue against the positives of weights and long toss because there are proven positive effects from both. In fact, our program integrates both along with the overload/underload principals. I will say that the results you see from our program surpass the results you would get from only long toss and weight training.

Again I will use track as an example. If weights and sprints were enough, why do high school as well as world class sprinters also work with chutes and bungees? Because over/underload training pricipals provide positive results in all athletes.

Frozen Ropes---

I am very questionable of weighted balls but I am always open to talk about it and learn the most I can about it.

In your earlier post you talked about arm speed and arm strength. How do you preform the tests for these? You stated that when you get arm speed and arm strength closer, velocity will increase. What about your rotational power? I feel when you get arm speed closer to rotational power, velocity will increase.

Long toss will not make you throw harder, it will get your arm in shape. Rotational power (good mechanics) will.
Plan and simple, I think you should spend more time on rotational power than with arm strength. The time with weighted balls seems like wasted time. Do you feel that most of your power comes from your arm?

The biggest question that I always had with weighted baseballs is.... if it is so great why dont major or minor leaguers do it?

quote:

The biggest question that I always had with weighted baseballs is.... if it is so great why dont major or minor leaguers do it?

What do major or minor leaguers do?

quote:

Originally posted by Frozen Ropes NTX:
We have had several players go through our Speed Thrills program where they have gained velocity with no ill effects. If you have a quality program you WILL get positive results.

First - the weighted program is not just weighted balls. It is also lighter balls as well.

Second - each player gets a fairly specific prescription based on first day testing.

ex. some players have a lot of arm speed and low arm strength. Some are the other way, great strength but no arm speed.

The day one testing determines the area you concentrate on - speed or strength. Once you have brought those two into a closer balance your velocity will increase.

Overtraining and undertraining muscle groups for specific athletic movements has been scientifically proven to increase performance in the specified movement. ex - track stars over/under train on a daily basis to increase running speed. As baseball fans, coaches and parents it is widely acceptable to over/under train for bat speed.

I must respectfully disagree with Funnel. I have video of our players throwing heavier and lighter baseballs with absolutely the same delivery frame for frame.

Question. Is it ok for a quarterback to throw a football? It wieghs more than 5 oz.

The heavier balls are only 2 and 4 oz heavier. Thats 9 oz. A football is 14-15 oz.

A reputable instructor will also have delivery criteria that each player must meet before being allowed to go through the program. The players arm action and delivery must be mechanically sound before we allow them to participate in our program.

Steven Okert from Rowlett came to us and was 79-81 on our stalker. We sharpened and cleaned up his delivery and moved him to 81-83.

He went through our speed thrills program and went from 84 max throw to 91 max throw. He pitched the season between 85-87. Thats a decent upgrade but the real upgrade was, before he would be 80-81 in the first and 77-78 in the late innings. After, he pitched 85-87 in the first and 85-87 in the 7th.

This summer against Carpenter's team in the regional on the TCU gun he was 89 in the first and 89 in the 7th.

Same story for Kindle Ladd. 81-83 before 89 after.
Clayton Woodruff 81-84 before 88 after.
Michael Bolsinger - same
Trent Appleby, Adam Miller, Stuart Slakey - Same.

In the 6 years we have worked the speed thrills program we have had over 70 players run through. The average velocity gain on those 70 is 3-4 mph.

Ok - I yield the floor .... fire away.

The problem with everything you said is that you aren't isolating the test - what actually happens is kids, the ages of 15-18 throw harder and harder due to size increases, strength increase, maturity, awareness of their body in space, mechanics yet as they increase velocity it was because of the weighted baseballs. Just can't happen, it breaks a very important principal of motor behavior.

Just like long toss, a throw from a flat ground with a slight upward trajectory does not translate to the mound which is downhill (not flat) and thrown at a different trajectory. You can stand on one end of a football field and throw a baseball through the uprights on the other end and run to a mound and as soon as you go to pitch your body is recognizing a completely different throw. Caveat: I am not against long toss because it serves many purposes, just doesn't make you throw harder. Explain to me why certain 10 year olds can throw the ball 10-15 mph harder than others? Are they long tossing properly, no. Velocity comes from hip torso separation at foot strike, the players that have the greatest hip torso separation throw the hardest.

Long toss as well as weighted baseballs are extremely new relative to the age of baseball and they both came into baseball for a particular reason and it wasn't velocity. One was part of a rehabilitation program after surgery and the other was a gimmick to make money.

RLB - I totally agree that certain players throw harder due to a genetic ability. But to say our data isn't isolated in it's nature is untrue. Our program is a 5 week program. If our players experienced these gains due to only growth, maturity, mechanical improvement and the other myriad of reasons you used then why would they not experience the same gains over the next 5 week period? They are still growing, maturing, improving their mechanical advantages? They dont see those gains, even the dedicated everyday players who longtoss, weight train and throw regular bullpen sessions. They can see some gains but these are not the most effecive and efficient training methods.

Why would Michael Johnson, a world class sprinter at age 30, use over/underload training principals when his body is already mature? Because the benifits of overload and underload have been scientifically proven to be effective.

As for weighted ball training being new to baseball as a money making gimmick.....well, OU training began in baseball in the 60's. As training methodology and computer analysis information became more readily available, training and human perfomance methods evolved with the technology.

According to: Coop DeRenne, Kwok W. Ho and James C. Murphy. 2001: Effects of General, Special, and Specific Resistance Training on Throwing Velocity in Baseball: A Brief Review. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 15, No. 1. OU training is the most efficient method for power increase in athletes. Power is defined as the rate at which one can perform work, or the ability to exert muscle force quickly.

OTHER SPORTS THAT USE OU TRAINING
Accd to: Overload / Underload Training: How It Works & Why Ball Players Should Use This Training Method by Author: Steve Zawrotny

Over and underloaded implements and techniques are used very effectively by athletes in many sports in addition to baseball to augment performance:

Track & Field: heavier and lighter discuses, javelins, shot balls (shot putters) and hammers; sprinting with resistance, such as pulling weighted sleds, wearing weighted vests, and downhill running on a slight downward slope, being towed while running, and running on a high speed treadmill (overSPEED training) .

Swimming: wearing swimming gloves that allow for more water to be pulled during an arm stroke; swimming while dragging an implement or otherwise artificially producing drag on a swimmer.

Heavier footballs (over the standard 15 oz) are thrown by quarterbacks; heavier basketballs are used by basketball players. Boxers train with different weights of boxing gloves.

Note that ALL of these training implements are used to improve POWER and/or SPEED through the joint range-of-motion (ROM) in the activity being trained, which can lead to enhanced performance.

A quick reference of a nonbeliver turned advocate: http://www.webball.com/cms/page1439.cfm

No gimmick here just results.

Spikes - who's to says the big league guys don't? We have at least 3 that do in our facility every off season. Here you go: http://www.thecompletepitcher....ighted_baseballs.htm

The scientific resesrch is out there. Performed many times over. All the results say the same thing, when implemented properly, O/U training for pitchers can show gains in velocity more effectively than any other method known to this date. Period. I invite any non believer to check the reputable research.

Frozen Ropes,

I won't quote everything.

5 weeks with a high school player isn't isolated. Isolated would be taking a 24 year old AAA+ pitcher who has the ability to repeat his throw at an extremely high % and has peaked velocity and next do not make any mechanical changes. Now you would now if it works.

I am not really interested in articles claiming something works when the data is awful.

Also, baseball has been around since the late 1800's, 1960 is "relatively new" as I said.

Finally, and very importantly you absolutely cannot compare explosive movements to skill work. That isn't to say said skill work isn't an explosive movement. Football players lift weights differently than baseball players, why? Different movements and skills involved and the two shouldn't be compared. A QB throw is completely different than a baseball throw let alone a pitch throw down a hill. The OU examples mean very little to what is actually being talked about.

Now I understand that you will defend this to the end because of the facility and you and your instructors teach it in there, that is fine - just know that "scientific research" can be dug up on anything to support your case, it doesn't mean it is accurate.

quote:

5 weeks with a high school player isn't isolated. Isolated would be taking a 24 year old AAA+ pitcher who has the ability to repeat his throw at an extremely high % and has peaked velocity and next do not make any mechanical changes. Now you would now if it works.

Done. Adam Miller - Cleveland -- From 91-93 to 95-98.

"Data is awful" - Positive results from tests performed by these noted training experts:

The following is from a study done by the ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institute) located in Birmingham AL.:

EFFECTS OF THROWING OVERWEIGHT AND UNDERWEIGHT BASEBALLS
ON THROWING VELOCITY AND ACCURACY

Rafael F. Escamilla1, Ph.D., Glenn S. Fleisig2, Ph.D.,
Steven W. Barrentine2, M.S., James R. Andrews2, M.D., and Kevin P. Speer, M.D.

Michael W. Krzyzewski Human Performance Laboratory
Division of Orthopaedic Surgery
Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC, 27710

American Sports Medicine Institute
Birmingham, AL 35205

acct to http://www.******.com/finalweb...20ou%20training1.htm

Research with baseball players dates back to the 1960s. This is just a sampling of studies involving OU Training and baseball. There are dozens more relating to OU Training generally:

1) Coop DeRenne, Kwok W. Ho and James C. Murphy. 2001: Effects of General, Special, and Specific Resistance Training on Throwing Velocity in Baseball: A Brief Review. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 15, No. 1

2) Escamilla et al. 2000: Sports Med Apr; 29 (4): 259-272

3) Coop DeRenne, Barton P. Buxton, Ronald K. Hetzler and Kwok W. Ho. 1994: Effects of Under- and Overweighted Implement Training on Pitching Velocity. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 8, No. 4

4) DeRenne, C., Tracy, R., and Dunn-Rankin, P. 1985: Increasing Throwing velocity. Athletic Journal, April, 36 - 39.

5) Bagonzi, J. A. 1978: The Effects of Graded Weighted Baseballs, Free Weight Training, and Simulative Isometric Exercise on the Velocity of a Thrown Baseball. Master's thesis, Indiana University.

6) Litwhiler, D., and Hamm, L. 1973: Overload: Effect on Throwing Velocity and Accuracy. Athletic Journal, 53, 64-65.

7) Brose, D.E., and D.L. Hanson 1967: Effects of Overload Training on Velocity and Accuracy of Throwing. Research Quarterly. 38:528-533.

8) Egstrom, G.H., Logan, G.A., and E. L. Wallis 1960: Acquisition of Throwing skill Involving Projectiles of varying Weight. Research Quarterly 31:420-425.

In brief, all of the study subjects were either high school or college players. All of the studies showed an increase in throwing velocity using weighted baseballs. There were no reports of harmful effects or problems with mechanics and control.

acct to http://www.baseballfit.com/wei...aseball_throwing.htm

I realize you will defend against this training method because you have some mindset against it. No problem. Opinions are what America is all about. I can respect that. Research and helping baseball players reach their individual potential is what Frozen Ropes is about.

If you take to notice, Dr James Andrews is listed in one of the studies.

By no means am I an expert on this, but my son is a pitcher and I try to learn as much as possible about pitching and baseball in general so I do a lot of reading. I feel that everyone is looking for a magic training tool that will make their son pitch faster, hit farther, etc. I feel sport specific speed and agility training and just good old fashioned hard work is the best tool to use. My son has had several pitching instructors over the years, some good and some not so good. He is 14 and throws 84/85 with accuracy. We are a proponent of a long stride and explosive lower body, think Tim Lincecum. It all makes since if you look at it with an open mind. Just because something has always been done a specific way doesn't mean that it should always be done that way. One of my issues is pitching practice (bull pen), what is the purpose pitching twice a week for 30-50 pitches? Would a marathon runner training for a marathon only run 100 yd dashes 2 days a week? I don't think so. That is why most young pitchers don't have the stamina on the mound to go for more than a few innings. Most drills being taught (towel drill, balance point, long toss, etc) are not effective. The lower body should be where all the power and velocity comes from. The arm is just used as a lever to throw the ball that is why someone as small as Tim Lincecum can throw so hard. It is all about mechanics and science. He has good mechanics and understands how his body works. Most of you will think this is just the ramblings of a baseball mom but in our house we don't waste our time or money with "quick fixes", just hard work and practice.

quote:

Originally posted by baseball13mom:
One of my issues is pitching practice (bull pen), what is the purpose pitching twice a week for 30-50 pitches?.

Because generally bullpen sessions are not meant to build stamina except for maybe spring training or something comparable for amatuer players.

A bullpen session is meant for a "touch-n-feel" in between starts. Or maybe to work on a specific part of the pitchers game...breaking pitch, location, mechanics, etc.

From your post, I take it you would recommend a 80+ pitch bullpen to help in a 100 pitch game outing? I get this from you marathon analogy.

This would put a pitcher well over 300 pitches per week for 1 start, not to mention what that pitch total might be for a 2 start week.

Food for thought.

I agree with you that there is no substitution for hard work.

But there are very few Tim Lincecum's in the world. Tim has a natural
God given talent. Certainly work helped his game, but you could take every pitcher in the DFW area this year and get them to work as hard as anyone ever has in the game.........

Chances are, you ain't getting another Tim Lincecum out of that bunch.

quote:

Chances are, you ain't getting another Tim Lincecum out of that bunch.

Agreed 100%. He is a one in 10 million.

quote:

in our house we don't waste our time or money with "quick fixes", just hard work and practice.

Our program doesnt claim to be a quick fix. I will tell you it sure isn't easy either. When the guys/girls (we do fastpitch as well) leave our place after a workout, they are soaked from head to toe. O/U training has proven to be the most "efficient" method of velocity training. As I stated earlier, you will see benifits and gains with different training methods, just not to the extent you would see with a proper O/U training program.

As for the large pitch count bullpens, I have an opinion much like Ken's. But I also would like to see more research on the subject. I feel our kids today don't throw enough. Not in games mind you, game pitch counts are through the roof, but in practice. Again, 300 plus pitches off a mound a week is too many IMO.

weighted baseballs and long toss are the best two ways to strengthen a young arm. Don't overdo the weighted baseballs. The way an arm becomes injured is the lack of proper mechanics not because a ball is 2 oz. heavier than a regular ball. Kids are too soft these days, and only want to try the quickest and NEWEST thing. baseball has been around 100 years, do you think Bob Feller used all these new fads to throw 100 miles an hour? I don't think so

Babe Ruth.... hot dogs and beer...

I haven't shared too many opinions lately... could be my twins... anyways

I have done a lot of research over the years on weighted baseballs. My conclusion: they're good, potentially very good, but only when used properly. You're not using it to improve your pitching mechanics. You're using them to improve the strength in the specific muscles used to pitch. I also agree in the underweighted balls - use them to improve the firing pattern speed of the muscles used to pitch. Separately, train pitching mechanics through flat ground work with a normal baseball and other pitching drills (but not the towel drill).

I believe weighted balls are a great way to gain velocity, but frozen ropes ntx has forgotten to explain further on there program. They don't just throw weighted balls the entire time. They also do an extensive shoulder workout which includes jobes and speed bands. Im not trying to advertise a program here but if it didn't work then why do more and more kids seem to be more interested every year. All I have heard from this program is GAINING mphs, no injuries, and no drops in velocity. Sounds like it works to me.

I will bet you that there are more kids out there that GAIN mph, no injuries and no drops in velocity that don't use weighted balls than that do. Simply more kids DO NOT use them, they will gain simply because they are getting bigger and stronger in general. I know kids that have gained each year and have been injury free for 7 years straight and have never thrown a "weighted" ball. To each his own but weighted balls not necessary.

Why is baseball the only sport that uses the same size and weight of ball from 5 yrs old to pro level?
With that being said maybe these guys have "always" used weighted balls.

We've used weighted balls with success but key is moderation. Don't use a weighted ball more than 20% of game ball, i.e. 6oz should be max. We have limited the distance to 80' and reps to 15-20 at 85% of max. Then follow up with 15-20 throws with a 4oz ball to promote arm speed and then finish back with the regulation 5oz for 20 throws to reacclamate.

But then again different strokes for different folks...

El-Wapo I agree with you, the body does mature and grow stronger. BUT not every kid just grows up and throws 90. Say a kid is at the beginnig of his senior year throwing 85 86 why not take this program during the fall and increase that velocity?

CHSgame

Thanks, and you are right. Our program is extensive with core, cord, bodyblade, and longtoss work along with the O/U training balls.

You are also right, not every kid just grows up and throws 90. If you are stuck at X velocity and have been there as a junior and still there as a senior, no doubt you can get a few extra mph with proper O/U training.

So, if Billy Wagner is throwing say, 100 mph then with your training and weighted balls he could throw 104 mph? And then with more training and heavier balls 108 mph. I ain't buying! My argument is you can get added velocity in many ways. Ask any organization and they will tell you they can add velocity but the methods will probably all be different. Long toss with your kids. Cheaper and just as good results. Ask any major leaguer that pitches and has never thrown a weighted ball.

quote:

Originally posted by El-Wapo:
Long toss with your kids. Cheaper and just as good results.

False.

Take the time to read some of the above research reports posted.

I don't have to read "your" reports, I know for a fact through kids I have trained. Answer my question about Wagner, he never used weighted balls? Did Nolan, Sandy, I could go on and on. I'll bet they ALL did long toss!!!

Wapo

I never said longtoss wasnt a quality training tool. In fact if you take the time to read some of the great information in this thread you will see that I use longtoss in my program.

What you are wrong about is that longtoss is the absolute best training method. It is not. James Andrews of the American Sports Medicine Institute has proven it multiple times. He is regarded as the foremost authority on the subject. These are not "my" reports as you insinuate. They are the reports and studies of experts in the field. Since you are in the business of training the youth of America why would you not expose yourself to the very best research on the subject? It might help those that you train achieve new heights.

Lastly, do you really want me to answer your Billy Wagner question? Careful what you ask for.

Regards

Different strokes for different folks... If you want a local opinion from someone that has researched this tremendously... Call Keith Meister

Alright......

I started this thread about 2 weeks ago and I was 99.9% against weighted baseballs. I truly believed that the time could be spent on more important things. I thought some velocity could be gained but not enough for the time commitment.

Since my original post, I have been talking with the guys at frozen ropes and I even went up to watch a weighted baseball session with about 10 players. I am a believer now. I believe that weighted baseballs are a great way to increase arm strength without harming the arm. Everything was run smoothly and they touched on all the aspects... core, scap, rotator cuff, and proper arm path.

I am not some dad with an opinion, I am a college pitching coach that had an open mind and listened to what frozen ropes had to say. I took the information and made a logical decision.

Bottom line.... If you have the means to attend these "velocity/weighted baseball camps", then do it. You will not regret it.

If you have any questions, you can email me at lharrington@dallasspikes.com
or pm me

Does this make sense?

Studies prove that any implement over 15% heavier or lighter than your normal piece of equipment will alter your mechanics significantly. If you swing a heavy bat you're practicing a different swing! Same goes with throwing a ball. Drop the weighted balls. It's too much of an injury risk and virtually impossible to maintain your mechanics when you use them.

quote:

If you have any questions, you can email me at lharrington@dallasspikes.com
or pm me

Are you sure it's not lharrington@frozenropes.com now.

Just kidding, good info Coach, might have to give it a try.

Wapo

Post legitimate studies as I have done.

I guess all those HS quarterback/baseball players are in real trouble then since a football is 300% heavier than their standard baseball equipment.

Better send a letter over to Nolan and tell him to get the football out of the Rangers equipment bag.

J/K Wapo - do what you want dude, Mesico is at least a semi-free country.

On a serious note: I will show you or anyone on a 300 fps video a 5oz ball and a 9oz ball - that delivery inconsistancies are as insignificant from the weight difference as they are from 5oz balls pitch to pitch.

Having said that, we dont throw the training balls from the mound.

Workinghard, Coach Harrington came here a skeptic and left a believer. Not just on the speed training but visual mechanic/timing training as well. Many folks have

http://www.frozenropes.com/hom...isual-mechanics.aspx

You want to throw harder???? just watch this. http://hsbaseballreport.com/tips/?video=27