Why America's Pastime is Losing Its Identity
http://www.sierratimes.com/06/05/31/24_253_65_215_72392.htm
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Andy
Why do you try to stir the pot with this stuff ?
We already have a lengthy thread on this weird obsession of yours
Why do you try to stir the pot with this stuff ?
We already have a lengthy thread on this weird obsession of yours
No one is stiring a pot,(the article points out legit reasons for decline in numbers).
unlike some people, topics that need discussing are brought up, instead of please come to my hs showcase like some one keep posting here.
unlike some people, topics that need discussing are brought up, instead of please come to my hs showcase like some one keep posting here.
Andy May
Wrong again--- you keep bringing up articles thet relate to ethnic equality--- as for your accusations regarding what I do--"please come to my showcase"-- the fool on the hill speaks again-- show me where
As for stirring, note the spelling, the pot--you do it all the time
Wrong again--- you keep bringing up articles thet relate to ethnic equality--- as for your accusations regarding what I do--"please come to my showcase"-- the fool on the hill speaks again-- show me where
As for stirring, note the spelling, the pot--you do it all the time
Sorry but i cant point out 3,000 of your posts
related to college select showcase and you still never say why you refuse to list online the MPH, 60 yard time and release times of the college select showcase players . Everyone else does.
Watch how you duck this question.
related to college select showcase and you still never say why you refuse to list online the MPH, 60 yard time and release times of the college select showcase players . Everyone else does.
Watch how you duck this question.
OLD SLUGGGER
The writers are like E-6-- they can't think of anything better to do than dig up dirt
The writers are like E-6-- they can't think of anything better to do than dig up dirt
It's not news to this ol geezer that
America has seen (and since about 1988)
a rise in participation of youth baseball!
Today, there are more fans at the MLB and MiLB
attending games (since there are more games). NASCAR has the highest of fan attendence.
USA Pro Basketball player are yielding to European players for about a decade.
Pro Tennis is beginning to see a reversal of trends.
As for the amateur level, I have in the past preferred to see talented HS athletes play multiple varsity sports. However with many teens
playing a single varsity sport 10-12 months a year, the 3 month teenage athlete who happens to play baseball may typically have foot speed as his best tool, yet is unable to compete at the JV HS Baseball level let alone HS Baseball Varsity.
Around this region, HS Baseball competes with HS Lacrossed for HS teenagers primarily 'cause
they had poor youth coach and probably are timid and can't hit!
As the proverb goes:
Any one can play football!
Regards
Bear
ps. Can you two ever make-up. That too is getting old!
America has seen (and since about 1988)
a rise in participation of youth baseball!
Today, there are more fans at the MLB and MiLB
attending games (since there are more games). NASCAR has the highest of fan attendence.
USA Pro Basketball player are yielding to European players for about a decade.
Pro Tennis is beginning to see a reversal of trends.
As for the amateur level, I have in the past preferred to see talented HS athletes play multiple varsity sports. However with many teens
playing a single varsity sport 10-12 months a year, the 3 month teenage athlete who happens to play baseball may typically have foot speed as his best tool, yet is unable to compete at the JV HS Baseball level let alone HS Baseball Varsity.
Around this region, HS Baseball competes with HS Lacrossed for HS teenagers primarily 'cause
they had poor youth coach and probably are timid and can't hit!
As the proverb goes:
Any one can play football!
Regards
Bear
ps. Can you two ever make-up. That too is getting old!
It makes you wonder...if your Son wishes to play professional baseball, has worked hard with high quality paid professional instruction, has skill and talent and a knowledge of how the game is played, 3 or more solid tools, etc. Does it make sense to allow your Son to be drafted, even at a low round with minimal bonus, to get into the system and prove himself there?
Florida,
If your son loves the game - my guess is you wont be able to stop him from doing whatever the heck he wants to. Actually - if he is in college - he isnt a kid - he is a young man making his own decisions - good or bad.
One thing is for sure - I wouldnt want some hack journalist - writing yet another hack article - influencing anything he ever does in his life.
She talks about "Saving America?" LOL - She needs to lay off the Granola, play ball on the field and get into a few dust-ups- and then get a real job.
LOL
If your son loves the game - my guess is you wont be able to stop him from doing whatever the heck he wants to. Actually - if he is in college - he isnt a kid - he is a young man making his own decisions - good or bad.
One thing is for sure - I wouldnt want some hack journalist - writing yet another hack article - influencing anything he ever does in his life.
She talks about "Saving America?" LOL - She needs to lay off the Granola, play ball on the field and get into a few dust-ups- and then get a real job.
LOL
Me thinks some of the writers have nothing better to do than write "garbage" articles for surfing cybercadets to cut and paste or link to on numerous sites
Bear,
Please do not Compare Baseball With Lacrosse.
S****r with a stik.
Baseball compete's with no other sport.
Baseball is what it is.
No More No Less.
The absolute best and only True sport out There.
I don't want to make excusses of Why certain Area's of the Country/ World do not play the Game.
I Don't care.
Baseball is not for Everybody.
It take's someone Special to play this Game.
Someone who can handle the Good with the Bad.
A person that can handle adversity and failure.
To come back the next Day/Game, and play there heart out.
It's not for Everyone, It's just Baseball.
Please do not Compare Baseball With Lacrosse.
S****r with a stik.
Baseball compete's with no other sport.
Baseball is what it is.
No More No Less.
The absolute best and only True sport out There.
I don't want to make excusses of Why certain Area's of the Country/ World do not play the Game.
I Don't care.
Baseball is not for Everybody.
It take's someone Special to play this Game.
Someone who can handle the Good with the Bad.
A person that can handle adversity and failure.
To come back the next Day/Game, and play there heart out.
It's not for Everyone, It's just Baseball.
EH, very well said.
Baseball is a pure game...see ball, hit ball, catch ball. No chest thumping, tattoo flashing, trash talking (well unless your a catcher). Baseball is a GREAT game
At risk of pointing out a fact that is politically incorrect....
Youth baseball depends heavily on parent (mostly father) coaching and volunteering. The sad fact is that 70% of black children are born out of wedlock, and therefore it is far more likely that a black youngster has no father around to be involved in baseball with him, compared to his white counterparts.
I think this fact is explains a lot.
Youth baseball depends heavily on parent (mostly father) coaching and volunteering. The sad fact is that 70% of black children are born out of wedlock, and therefore it is far more likely that a black youngster has no father around to be involved in baseball with him, compared to his white counterparts.
I think this fact is explains a lot.
E-6,
I've kept my mouth shut but now it's become too much. All you do is make post after post with an article in it or a jab at another hsbbw member. Enough is enough. About 90% of the stuff you write is negative and its just annoying. Try to be positive, or stop posting all together. Even your moniker is negative.
Simmer down there, slugger!
gg3
I've kept my mouth shut but now it's become too much. All you do is make post after post with an article in it or a jab at another hsbbw member. Enough is enough. About 90% of the stuff you write is negative and its just annoying. Try to be positive, or stop posting all together. Even your moniker is negative.
Simmer down there, slugger!
gg3
gold glove you are upset that people cant discuss trends or issues without name calling.
If you really want to promote your kid to the NE colleges, have him attend Top 96 Lowell, PG at Wareham or Selectfest Showcase.
and go to the college web sites, when you need info on a college.
Glad the Red Sox finally won a world series, only took them 80 years, JK
If you really want to promote your kid to the NE colleges, have him attend Top 96 Lowell, PG at Wareham or Selectfest Showcase.
and go to the college web sites, when you need info on a college.
Glad the Red Sox finally won a world series, only took them 80 years, JK
Ok, here's my take. I read that article before and E-6 is right when he says it raises some very legitimate reasons for the decline in interest amongst blacks. Old Slugger, on the other hand, says there is "no problem" and apparently is saying we should rather instead investigate why there are too many blacks playing basketball. Of course, coming from him, who in another thread referred to basketball players as "thugs", I'm not surprised.
To me, its sad that baseball is losing its black players and yes, it is most definitely a problem. I know there are a lot of factors, mostly non-baseball related and having nothing to do with race, but no matter how you look at it or try to assess blame there is no denying it hurts the sport.
For one thing, young blacks heavily influence popular culture. Just look at music. Young white boys tend to mimic the young black boys, and at least here in Spokane basketball has become far more popular as a sport. In marketing, we call these (young black boys) "opinion leaders" and to lose their interest in the sport affects more than the 13% of the population which is black.. it will affect 30-40% of the entire population, and that is not good for baseball.
Baseball people need to be ambassadors for the game. And that means reaching out and trying to regain the interest of young black boys.
It's not easy. When I started an AAU team a few years back, I contacted the local (black) community director, and asked him to send kids our way who may be interested in baseball. I explained I would be willing to offer some scholorships. I got no response after two or three attempts and gave up.
On the positive side, the Asian influence is gaining momentum, and that's good to see.
Eventually, baseball's influence will extend globally, I really believe that. But right now, my greater concern is keeping it America's Pastime.
To me, its sad that baseball is losing its black players and yes, it is most definitely a problem. I know there are a lot of factors, mostly non-baseball related and having nothing to do with race, but no matter how you look at it or try to assess blame there is no denying it hurts the sport.
For one thing, young blacks heavily influence popular culture. Just look at music. Young white boys tend to mimic the young black boys, and at least here in Spokane basketball has become far more popular as a sport. In marketing, we call these (young black boys) "opinion leaders" and to lose their interest in the sport affects more than the 13% of the population which is black.. it will affect 30-40% of the entire population, and that is not good for baseball.
Baseball people need to be ambassadors for the game. And that means reaching out and trying to regain the interest of young black boys.
It's not easy. When I started an AAU team a few years back, I contacted the local (black) community director, and asked him to send kids our way who may be interested in baseball. I explained I would be willing to offer some scholorships. I got no response after two or three attempts and gave up.
On the positive side, the Asian influence is gaining momentum, and that's good to see.
Eventually, baseball's influence will extend globally, I really believe that. But right now, my greater concern is keeping it America's Pastime.
Bum...Thanks for offering another perspective on this issue...very considerate and all-embracing.
I have wanted to post in these threads about minority youth participation in baseball for along time but have felt uncomfortable doing so publicly. As always, many of the thoughts are very eloquently and logically stated.
Here is a question and it leads to my trepidation when discussing such subject matter. Isn't the discussion itself "possibly" inherently racist? For example, if all the players who have supposedly not been given a proper introduction and nurturing to baseball were white, we couldn't even have the conversation in the first place. How would we identify those supposedly left behind or out? By their economic status? From whence they came? i.e., Appalacia.
We might be able to say something like "Well, the poor whites in this country can no longer afford to keep up with their affluent counterparts and thus, participation among poor, inner-city whites has declined."
It seems to me, the only reason we can have the conversation the way it is currently structured is because a segment of our youth can be identified "soley" by their race. This aspect, I am uncomfortable with.
Here is a question and it leads to my trepidation when discussing such subject matter. Isn't the discussion itself "possibly" inherently racist? For example, if all the players who have supposedly not been given a proper introduction and nurturing to baseball were white, we couldn't even have the conversation in the first place. How would we identify those supposedly left behind or out? By their economic status? From whence they came? i.e., Appalacia.
We might be able to say something like "Well, the poor whites in this country can no longer afford to keep up with their affluent counterparts and thus, participation among poor, inner-city whites has declined."
It seems to me, the only reason we can have the conversation the way it is currently structured is because a segment of our youth can be identified "soley" by their race. This aspect, I am uncomfortable with.
I had an interesting conversation this past weekend with the head football coach/pitching coach at a large Dallas-Fort Worth high school. The neighborhood surrounding the high school used to be regarded as solidly middle class, but now is regarded as inner city. The coach told me there are close to 150 players on the football team (I assume that includes freshman and JV teams) and only 25 players are from 2-parent families. He said the single parents have neither the money nor the time to invest heavily in their sons' athletic endeavors. In addition, he said, most have little interest in academics and wouldn't be able to succeed in college. He said a full 10% of the senior class this year failed the TAKS test and thus failed to graduate. He's had several college coaches ask about his more promising baseball players, only to lose interest when they find out their GPA's. It's a multi-faceted problem with no easy solutions.
ClevelandDad...You are not alone. Because of our American "history", (which, by the way, none of us who are alive today had anything to do with), the issue of race is a sensitive topic for many of us. As I stated in an earlier post, until and unless we collectively regard the lack of Blacks in baseball as a "problem", then nothing will get done.
Unlike White people, race and race related issues are things that I have to deal with on a daily basis. This is not to invoke sympathy, (you all know me better than that) it is simply a fact of my life. As I was reading the paper last night from a few days ago, there on the front page was an article about the disparity on how lending institutions grant loans. It was documented that when Blacks and Whites with the same or similar credit history/rating/income, etc. apply for loans, Blacks are far more likely to be denied than Whites and if the loan is granted the same Black person will pay a higher interest rate than the White person. WHY? Why must I worry about this when I go to apply for a loan?
You see, my fellow posters, we have a history that none of us are responsible for, yet some of us are still suffering from its impact. I know things are changing and I try daily, in a positive way, to help speed things up.
My question to you is this: Why is it, that although football and basketball are predominantly populated by Blacks, Whites rarely complain about the lack of Whites in either sport? This question is meant to be rhetorical. But think about it.
Unlike White people, race and race related issues are things that I have to deal with on a daily basis. This is not to invoke sympathy, (you all know me better than that) it is simply a fact of my life. As I was reading the paper last night from a few days ago, there on the front page was an article about the disparity on how lending institutions grant loans. It was documented that when Blacks and Whites with the same or similar credit history/rating/income, etc. apply for loans, Blacks are far more likely to be denied than Whites and if the loan is granted the same Black person will pay a higher interest rate than the White person. WHY? Why must I worry about this when I go to apply for a loan?
You see, my fellow posters, we have a history that none of us are responsible for, yet some of us are still suffering from its impact. I know things are changing and I try daily, in a positive way, to help speed things up.
My question to you is this: Why is it, that although football and basketball are predominantly populated by Blacks, Whites rarely complain about the lack of Whites in either sport? This question is meant to be rhetorical. But think about it.
quote:Why must I worry about this when I go to apply for a loan?
Catfish - obviously, one shouldn't have to worry about something like this. Nice post as always.
I guess I see the loan scenario as a different problem but to use the analogy or argument with baseball, then we would have to say something like "The reason minority participation is down in baseball is that there are racial injustices that are bestowed upon the minority player causing many to say that it just isn't worth it to play baseball." I am definitely no expert in this arena, however, my intuition says the problem is not institutional racism like in the loan situation.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
Ok, here's my take. I read that article before and E-6 is right when he says it raises some very legitimate reasons for the decline in interest amongst blacks. Old Slugger, on the other hand, says there is "no problem" and apparently is saying we should rather instead investigate why there are too many blacks playing basketball. Of course, coming from him, who in another thread referred to basketball players as "thugs".
******first of all, the term "thugs" was media born in its link to basketball and used quite frequently with the late 80's Pistons team. The leader of the pack that the reference was used mostly on was a white man, so please don't infer anything, unless you think that way.
The term described a method of hoop strategy that those who patrol the paint used hard aggressive play, and some flagrant fouls to dissuade a player from going to the rack.
In baseball, if you can't hit, everybody knows it as they usher you out the door, granted you ever got in there to begin with.
Maybe the answer to your question about MLB participation lies within the inverse?
Catfish,
To be very blunt about it, any white person that brings up the idea of making the NBA a racially balanced league is immediately called a racist.
A better question for all those who feel they must socially engineer everything.....
If you "balance" everything in the america by racial breakdown, when that breakdown changes, how will you handle it?
hypothetical example...
If today there the population base shows 60%
white, 20% black & 20% latino, and in 5 years it changes to 58% white, 18% black & 24% latino, will you throw out 2% of the white athletes and 2% of the black athletes in order to make room for that 4% increase of latinos?
To be very blunt about it, any white person that brings up the idea of making the NBA a racially balanced league is immediately called a racist.
A better question for all those who feel they must socially engineer everything.....
If you "balance" everything in the america by racial breakdown, when that breakdown changes, how will you handle it?
hypothetical example...
If today there the population base shows 60%
white, 20% black & 20% latino, and in 5 years it changes to 58% white, 18% black & 24% latino, will you throw out 2% of the white athletes and 2% of the black athletes in order to make room for that 4% increase of latinos?
quote:For one thing, young blacks heavily influence popular culture. Just look at music. Young white boys tend to mimic the young black boys, and at least here in Spokane basketball has become far more popular as a sport. In marketing, we call these (young black boys) "opinion leaders" and to lose their interest in the sport affects more than the 13% of the population which is black.. it will affect 30-40% of the entire population, and that is not good for baseball.
I, for one, certainly look forward to listening to the "black music" as I'm driving down the road. Whenever I feel the vibration of the subwoofers from a half mile away I always make sure I turn down my radio so I can get the full effect of the sound that is rattling my car off it's frame, and I also enjoy hearing the "blue" language coming from the other vehicle as it passes me by. Can't get enough of it. We definitely need to figure a way to get more of this "culture" into
the "white" society. Heaven knows it's something we ALL need to embrace, especially by trying to get more "young black boys" into baseball.
Oh yea, almost forgot, I also love walking through the malls with my wife and watching the young blacks(and whites and latinos) holding their 4-sizes-too-big pants up by grabbing their crotches every 2 seconds so their pants won't fall off.
What was I thinking when I taught my boys to dress properly and respect other peoples spaces? Boy was I way off base.
Yes, we certainly do need to have the "young white boys" follow the influences of the "young black boys" and we definitely
need to find the answer to this gigantic problem of declining blacks in baseball. Maybe we could all take a sensitivity
course in understanding and respecting other races? No, on second thought, that wouldn't work because then it would have to
work in both directions. Never mind.
ClevelandDad...I appreciate the respect you and I have for each other that we can debate a very sensitive issue in a very dignified manner. I really do appreciate that.
To me, institutional racism means that an institution's laws, regulations and policies are such that they "allow" for discrimination without penalty. Very few of those laws, regulations and policies exist any longer. This country has worked very hard to eliminate institutional racism. Yet discrimination based on race and other factors still exists within many institutions because someone forgot that any person can discriminate with or without the "support" of a law. So the fact that institutional racism is diminishing, does not mean that racism or discrimination in all phases of our society no longer exists. Humans are discriminating beings. We all discriminate. We have to make a conscious effort not to do it or when we do it, to know when it is harmful and when it is not.
NHF...I would never advoctate racially balancing any sport. But why is this issue so prevalent in baseball? I didn't bring up the topic and I've only posted on it a few times. Yet this issue always invokes a lot of discussion and looks. So there is a problem or this issue would go away for good. But it doesn't. It is a concern for a lot a people not only on this board but almost everywhere.
I don't think we will resolve this issue here, and I hope that no one gets upset because of this discussion. Everybody else is talking about it so I'm glad that we are as well. After all, it is baseball we are talking about.
To me, institutional racism means that an institution's laws, regulations and policies are such that they "allow" for discrimination without penalty. Very few of those laws, regulations and policies exist any longer. This country has worked very hard to eliminate institutional racism. Yet discrimination based on race and other factors still exists within many institutions because someone forgot that any person can discriminate with or without the "support" of a law. So the fact that institutional racism is diminishing, does not mean that racism or discrimination in all phases of our society no longer exists. Humans are discriminating beings. We all discriminate. We have to make a conscious effort not to do it or when we do it, to know when it is harmful and when it is not.
NHF...I would never advoctate racially balancing any sport. But why is this issue so prevalent in baseball? I didn't bring up the topic and I've only posted on it a few times. Yet this issue always invokes a lot of discussion and looks. So there is a problem or this issue would go away for good. But it doesn't. It is a concern for a lot a people not only on this board but almost everywhere.
I don't think we will resolve this issue here, and I hope that no one gets upset because of this discussion. Everybody else is talking about it so I'm glad that we are as well. After all, it is baseball we are talking about.
Catfish - all good stuff 
I did qualify my ignorance by stating that I am no expert
Seriously, if not institutional, I feel the loan situation is different than what plagues minority participation in baseball. As you noted, based on historical problems, we need to be sensitive to the possibilities.
I did qualify my ignorance by stating that I am no expert
Seriously, if not institutional, I feel the loan situation is different than what plagues minority participation in baseball. As you noted, based on historical problems, we need to be sensitive to the possibilities.
Good point, ClevelandDad.
Catfish, thanks for your input. Regarding loans, I think there are two levels of discrimination going on there. The first is very overt racism which we have many laws to help enforce compliance (more on that later).
The second is more subtle. I have seen studies which show that car dealers are far more likely to take advantage of women than men. The dealers perceive these women as less sophisticated, an easy mark, and therefore more profitable. I suspect some car dealers and mortgage lenders view blacks the same way, whether consciously or subconsciously--an easy mark--and that's really unfortunate.
Maybe the answer, rather than focusing on more laws and compliance, is to force them to have one asking price for a car, and in the case of mortgages more fully disclose available loan terms.
OldSlugger: OK, I accept your explanation of the Pistons use of the term "thugs", but I'm not sure that was the original context of your argument. But that's okay. Forgive and forget.
NH: No one is suggesting social engineering. Where did that come from?
Moc1: I would lololol except your insinuations about young black people and their culture are meant to demean. Look, I don't like the music either. I find it annoying. But my dad didn't like it very much when I played Led Zeppelin at max base level. For every annoying rap song you can name, I can think of a really bad Lawrence Welk rendition of Perry Como. Dang, it's just music. There were many whites 30 years ago who didn't like MoTown.. imagine that!
You miss my point. It's not whether you LIKE the influence of young black men on popular culture; my point is that if we are to promote baseball and keep it America's game we need to include these young men because whether you like it or not they most definitely influence opinion and impact the popularity of our favorite sport, baseball.
The second is more subtle. I have seen studies which show that car dealers are far more likely to take advantage of women than men. The dealers perceive these women as less sophisticated, an easy mark, and therefore more profitable. I suspect some car dealers and mortgage lenders view blacks the same way, whether consciously or subconsciously--an easy mark--and that's really unfortunate.
Maybe the answer, rather than focusing on more laws and compliance, is to force them to have one asking price for a car, and in the case of mortgages more fully disclose available loan terms.
OldSlugger: OK, I accept your explanation of the Pistons use of the term "thugs", but I'm not sure that was the original context of your argument. But that's okay. Forgive and forget.
NH: No one is suggesting social engineering. Where did that come from?
Moc1: I would lololol except your insinuations about young black people and their culture are meant to demean. Look, I don't like the music either. I find it annoying. But my dad didn't like it very much when I played Led Zeppelin at max base level. For every annoying rap song you can name, I can think of a really bad Lawrence Welk rendition of Perry Como. Dang, it's just music. There were many whites 30 years ago who didn't like MoTown.. imagine that!
You miss my point. It's not whether you LIKE the influence of young black men on popular culture; my point is that if we are to promote baseball and keep it America's game we need to include these young men because whether you like it or not they most definitely influence opinion and impact the popularity of our favorite sport, baseball.
Why has this even come up other than the fact that Dibble is weird and takes pleasure in simply being weird.
Equality in every aspect of everything we do will never be obtained because people are different and we can’t (and shouldn’t) hide that difference. All one needs to be able to do is look at any group, pull out a calculator, and prove some sort of disparity. Add in the fact that we as a society will never be satisfied with life as it is and we want to identify and correct all inequities. If we can’t identify a problem, we will fabricate one. Our “do good society” wants to make everything “better” for everyone. I personally don’t see an issue here. There are those that want to fabricate a problem, plug in some numbers and make this non-issue some sort of a racial issue simply because it stirs emotions or sells papers. Somehow in some sort of twisted way it has become politically correct in our society to prove political incorrectness.
The white race and the black race are easily distinguished from each other and even a blind person can notice the white players on the baseball field and the black players on the basketball courts. This is an obvious indicator that something MUST be wrong! Baseball fields in our town are covered up with white players with their white fans cheering them on. Same goes with the blacks on the basketball courts. This is not a problem with me or any white person I know that has a son playing baseball, yet somebody somewhere wants to make it a problem. My son’s black friends and my black friends have never have indicated there was a problem with black kids being denied the opportunity to play baseball. In order to make this “game playing” equal we will have to ban individuality and prevent everyone from “doing his own thing”.
Let’s put this in perspective. Baseball is a game. If the interest in baseball wanes how will this have a negative impact on society? Matter of fact, my life would probably be more organized and more productive if baseball were to go away. Maybe if baseball were to go away I could be setting here at my computer at 5:30 AM doing something a little more productive -----
Fungo.
Equality in every aspect of everything we do will never be obtained because people are different and we can’t (and shouldn’t) hide that difference. All one needs to be able to do is look at any group, pull out a calculator, and prove some sort of disparity. Add in the fact that we as a society will never be satisfied with life as it is and we want to identify and correct all inequities. If we can’t identify a problem, we will fabricate one. Our “do good society” wants to make everything “better” for everyone. I personally don’t see an issue here. There are those that want to fabricate a problem, plug in some numbers and make this non-issue some sort of a racial issue simply because it stirs emotions or sells papers. Somehow in some sort of twisted way it has become politically correct in our society to prove political incorrectness.
The white race and the black race are easily distinguished from each other and even a blind person can notice the white players on the baseball field and the black players on the basketball courts. This is an obvious indicator that something MUST be wrong! Baseball fields in our town are covered up with white players with their white fans cheering them on. Same goes with the blacks on the basketball courts. This is not a problem with me or any white person I know that has a son playing baseball, yet somebody somewhere wants to make it a problem. My son’s black friends and my black friends have never have indicated there was a problem with black kids being denied the opportunity to play baseball. In order to make this “game playing” equal we will have to ban individuality and prevent everyone from “doing his own thing”.
Let’s put this in perspective. Baseball is a game. If the interest in baseball wanes how will this have a negative impact on society? Matter of fact, my life would probably be more organized and more productive if baseball were to go away. Maybe if baseball were to go away I could be setting here at my computer at 5:30 AM doing something a little more productive -----
Fungo.
Bum,
The social engineering reference is perfectly valid when discussing this topic.
"Social engineering is a concept in political science that refers to efforts to influence popular attitudes and social behavior on a large scale, whether by governments or private groups.
"
The article that started his thread was full of references to programs targeted specifically at increasing black youth participation in baseball.
That IS social engineering.
As a matter of fact, the title suggets that because there is a decline in black players, the game is somehow LOSING its' IDENTITY ?????
I think its agreat idea to create programs to give ALL kids more opportunities to play baseball or other sports. These programs exist though because of an effort to increase the numbers of black baseball players not just to increase the number of baseball players.
My point was in reply to Catfish's rhetorical about basketball and football changing to be sports dominated by black players. There are few if any articles or programs to support the declining white players in those sports. Should there have been any?
For a long time even into the 70's & 80's, the Boston Celtics were percieved as that "white" team because they still had many white players.
back to baseball....
here is a 2005 study
http://www.bus.ucf.edu/sport/public/downloads/2005_Raci...0racial%20breakdown'
Now according to their statistics black players were 8.5%, latino players were 28.7% and asian were 2%. I assume that means that white players made up 61.3%.
If you look at that report, in 1991 the percentages were white-68%, black-18%, latino-14%. In 1997 the numbers had changed to white-58%, black-17%, latino-24% and others-1%. There was no outcry then for that 10% shift. No programs springing up all over the country to make sure the we account for the drop in white baseball players. Again...should there have been any?
Who is to say what percentages of what race in what sport are valid? H_ell, why aren't there more asian players in the NHL?
If one is going to put programs in place in one sport to support a decline in participation of a specific segment of society, should we not address the same concerns in all sports regardless of what the skin color or ethnic make-up of that segment is?
FUNGO said it best.....
"Equality in every aspect of everything we do will never be obtained because people are different and we can’t (and shouldn’t) hide that difference. All one needs to be able to do is look at any group, pull out a calculator, and prove some sort of disparity. Add in the fact that we as a society will never be satisfied with life as it is and we want to identify and correct all inequities. If we can’t identify a problem, we will fabricate one. Our “do good society” wants to make everything “better” for everyone. I personally don’t see an issue here. There are those that want to fabricate a problem, plug in some numbers and make this non-issue some sort of a racial issue simply because it stirs emotions or sells papers. Somehow in some sort of twisted way it has become politically correct in our society to prove political incorrectness.
The white race and the black race are easily distinguished from each other and even a blind person can notice the white players on the baseball field and the black players on the basketball courts. This is an obvious indicator that something MUST be wrong! Baseball fields in our town are covered up with white players with their white fans cheering them on. Same goes with the blacks on the basketball courts. This is not a problem with me or any white person I know that has a son playing baseball, yet somebody somewhere wants to make it a problem. My son’s black friends and my black friends have never have indicated there was a problem with black kids being denied the opportunity to play baseball. In order to make this “game playing” equal we will have to ban individuality and prevent everyone from “doing his own thing”.
My overall point in bringing up the social engineering reference is the same as Fungo's statements. Once you start down this path, where and how exactly do you draw the lines? How far do you go ?
The social engineering reference is perfectly valid when discussing this topic.
"Social engineering is a concept in political science that refers to efforts to influence popular attitudes and social behavior on a large scale, whether by governments or private groups.
"
The article that started his thread was full of references to programs targeted specifically at increasing black youth participation in baseball.
That IS social engineering.
As a matter of fact, the title suggets that because there is a decline in black players, the game is somehow LOSING its' IDENTITY ?????
I think its agreat idea to create programs to give ALL kids more opportunities to play baseball or other sports. These programs exist though because of an effort to increase the numbers of black baseball players not just to increase the number of baseball players.
My point was in reply to Catfish's rhetorical about basketball and football changing to be sports dominated by black players. There are few if any articles or programs to support the declining white players in those sports. Should there have been any?
For a long time even into the 70's & 80's, the Boston Celtics were percieved as that "white" team because they still had many white players.
back to baseball....
here is a 2005 study
http://www.bus.ucf.edu/sport/public/downloads/2005_Raci...0racial%20breakdown'
Now according to their statistics black players were 8.5%, latino players were 28.7% and asian were 2%. I assume that means that white players made up 61.3%.
If you look at that report, in 1991 the percentages were white-68%, black-18%, latino-14%. In 1997 the numbers had changed to white-58%, black-17%, latino-24% and others-1%. There was no outcry then for that 10% shift. No programs springing up all over the country to make sure the we account for the drop in white baseball players. Again...should there have been any?
Who is to say what percentages of what race in what sport are valid? H_ell, why aren't there more asian players in the NHL?
If one is going to put programs in place in one sport to support a decline in participation of a specific segment of society, should we not address the same concerns in all sports regardless of what the skin color or ethnic make-up of that segment is?
FUNGO said it best.....
"Equality in every aspect of everything we do will never be obtained because people are different and we can’t (and shouldn’t) hide that difference. All one needs to be able to do is look at any group, pull out a calculator, and prove some sort of disparity. Add in the fact that we as a society will never be satisfied with life as it is and we want to identify and correct all inequities. If we can’t identify a problem, we will fabricate one. Our “do good society” wants to make everything “better” for everyone. I personally don’t see an issue here. There are those that want to fabricate a problem, plug in some numbers and make this non-issue some sort of a racial issue simply because it stirs emotions or sells papers. Somehow in some sort of twisted way it has become politically correct in our society to prove political incorrectness.
The white race and the black race are easily distinguished from each other and even a blind person can notice the white players on the baseball field and the black players on the basketball courts. This is an obvious indicator that something MUST be wrong! Baseball fields in our town are covered up with white players with their white fans cheering them on. Same goes with the blacks on the basketball courts. This is not a problem with me or any white person I know that has a son playing baseball, yet somebody somewhere wants to make it a problem. My son’s black friends and my black friends have never have indicated there was a problem with black kids being denied the opportunity to play baseball. In order to make this “game playing” equal we will have to ban individuality and prevent everyone from “doing his own thing”.
My overall point in bringing up the social engineering reference is the same as Fungo's statements. Once you start down this path, where and how exactly do you draw the lines? How far do you go ?
Excellent post Fungo!
If I knew you were up at 5:30 you could've come fishing with me and we would have fixed all the worlds problems and caught a few Walleyes at the same time.
If I knew you were up at 5:30 you could've come fishing with me and we would have fixed all the worlds problems and caught a few Walleyes at the same time
.quote:why aren't there more asian players in the NHL?
Or in College, or HS, or Select Hockey. Nice angle to make a comparison with this issue. If anyone would say that Hockey is not a popular sport with the Asian/American population they can also apply that mentality to any sport and its participants. If you want it bad enough, it's there. Yes there may be some logistical baseball issues but bottom line it is an individuals passion for the game that dictates his success. You don't force feed passion because passion is a hunger.
rz1,
lol....it was a major tongue-in-cheek shot.
Just trying to point out that if one wants to, one can find this "issue" everywhere. At some point we all need to look at these things without racial glasses. The answer lies with trying to give ALL young athletes opportunities, not just aiming at one segment of society.
lol....it was a major tongue-in-cheek shot.
Just trying to point out that if one wants to, one can find this "issue" everywhere. At some point we all need to look at these things without racial glasses. The answer lies with trying to give ALL young athletes opportunities, not just aiming at one segment of society.
From Bum:
"Moc1: I would lololol except your insinuations about young black people and their culture are meant to demean. Look, I don't like the music either. I find it annoying. But my dad didn't like it very much when I played Led Zeppelin at max base level. For every annoying rap song you can name, I can think of a really bad Lawrence Welk rendition of Perry Como. Dang, it's just music. There were many whites 30 years ago who didn't like MoTown.. imagine that!
You miss my point. It's not whether you LIKE the influence of young black men on popular culture; my point is that if we are to promote baseball and keep it America's game we need to include these young men because whether you like it or not they most definitely influence opinion and impact the popularity of our favorite sport, baseball."
Actually, Bum, I believe you miss MY point. I was responding to your statement.."For one thing, young blacks heavily influence popular culture. Just look at music. Young white boys tend to mimic the young black boys, and at least here in Spokane basketball has become far more popular as a sport. In marketing, we call these (young black boys) "opinion leaders" and to lose their interest in the sport affects more than the 13% of the population which is black.. it will affect 30-40% of the entire population, and that is not good for baseball."
YOUNG WHITE BOYS TEND TO MIMIC THE YOUNG BLACK BOYS!
What does that mean? ALL young white boys? ALL young black boys? What you've done is basically make a racist statement that everyone just lets slip by without questioning because we are all afraid to say it works both ways.
To say that it's about me not liking rap "music" completely misses the point, it's not about liking or disliking any kind of music but about having it shoved down my throat in public by young blacks, whites, latinos, asians(whatever race you choose) to the point that I can't enjoy the music that I like because the noise coming from the car next to me is so loud it drowns out anything I may have on the radio. Is this the culture you're talking about that we need our young white boys to be influenced by? If not, I would certainly welcome an explanation of what you meant by "young blacks heavily influence
popular culture". Young whites don't? Using your logic shouldn't the NBA try to bring in more young whites so that the
young blacks don't miss out on the "white culture"?(whatever that is)
Look, My favorite song of all time is by the Temptations called "Just My Imagination". I grew up loving them, The Four Tops, Platters, Drifters, Sam Cook, Smokey R,. Been to many, many concerts to see the Temps and Tops together. Spent lots of $ on their albums and still listen to them to this day. Would it be right for me to drown out your Led Zepellin? It's
all about respect(Aretha) and I think we need to R E S P E C T each others' spaces. I don't see this happening anymore and
it's not peculiar to just ONE race. When there is no respect at home there will certainly be NO respect in public.
It's your opinion that the lack of blacks in baseball is a problem and it's my opinion that it's "Just Your Imagination".
"Moc1: I would lololol except your insinuations about young black people and their culture are meant to demean. Look, I don't like the music either. I find it annoying. But my dad didn't like it very much when I played Led Zeppelin at max base level. For every annoying rap song you can name, I can think of a really bad Lawrence Welk rendition of Perry Como. Dang, it's just music. There were many whites 30 years ago who didn't like MoTown.. imagine that!
You miss my point. It's not whether you LIKE the influence of young black men on popular culture; my point is that if we are to promote baseball and keep it America's game we need to include these young men because whether you like it or not they most definitely influence opinion and impact the popularity of our favorite sport, baseball."
Actually, Bum, I believe you miss MY point. I was responding to your statement.."For one thing, young blacks heavily influence popular culture. Just look at music. Young white boys tend to mimic the young black boys, and at least here in Spokane basketball has become far more popular as a sport. In marketing, we call these (young black boys) "opinion leaders" and to lose their interest in the sport affects more than the 13% of the population which is black.. it will affect 30-40% of the entire population, and that is not good for baseball."
YOUNG WHITE BOYS TEND TO MIMIC THE YOUNG BLACK BOYS!
What does that mean? ALL young white boys? ALL young black boys? What you've done is basically make a racist statement that everyone just lets slip by without questioning because we are all afraid to say it works both ways.
To say that it's about me not liking rap "music" completely misses the point, it's not about liking or disliking any kind of music but about having it shoved down my throat in public by young blacks, whites, latinos, asians(whatever race you choose) to the point that I can't enjoy the music that I like because the noise coming from the car next to me is so loud it drowns out anything I may have on the radio. Is this the culture you're talking about that we need our young white boys to be influenced by? If not, I would certainly welcome an explanation of what you meant by "young blacks heavily influence
popular culture". Young whites don't? Using your logic shouldn't the NBA try to bring in more young whites so that the
young blacks don't miss out on the "white culture"?(whatever that is)
Look, My favorite song of all time is by the Temptations called "Just My Imagination". I grew up loving them, The Four Tops, Platters, Drifters, Sam Cook, Smokey R,. Been to many, many concerts to see the Temps and Tops together. Spent lots of $ on their albums and still listen to them to this day. Would it be right for me to drown out your Led Zepellin? It's
all about respect(Aretha) and I think we need to R E S P E C T each others' spaces. I don't see this happening anymore and
it's not peculiar to just ONE race. When there is no respect at home there will certainly be NO respect in public.
It's your opinion that the lack of blacks in baseball is a problem and it's my opinion that it's "Just Your Imagination".
NH, thanks for the definition. I skipped political science so you must be right.
I guess the Boston Tea Party was social engineering?
Moc1, my point is to reach out to young black boys to promote the game, that's it. We don't live in medieval city-state with castle walls. These people are our neighbors.
More blacks live in the inner city than whites, on average, and it is the cities where popular culture evolves, not in suburbia where baseball is most popular. Cities are the center of culture, media, art, etc. Which explains why young suburbia boys tend (tend means not ALL) to mimic young black boys. These inner-city kids muture much faster and are exposed to much more cultural influence, both positive and negative, and this is then relayed by media to influence the suburban white kids.
Look, I really don't care if a baseball player is white, black, or green. I just want to promote baseball by reaching out to these kids, not engage in racial politics, quotas, or social engineering BS. What's wrong with that?
If you're happy with the state things are in, and I believe there is a problem, well, we can just agree to disagree.
I guess the Boston Tea Party was social engineering?
Moc1, my point is to reach out to young black boys to promote the game, that's it. We don't live in medieval city-state with castle walls. These people are our neighbors.
More blacks live in the inner city than whites, on average, and it is the cities where popular culture evolves, not in suburbia where baseball is most popular. Cities are the center of culture, media, art, etc. Which explains why young suburbia boys tend (tend means not ALL) to mimic young black boys. These inner-city kids muture much faster and are exposed to much more cultural influence, both positive and negative, and this is then relayed by media to influence the suburban white kids.
Look, I really don't care if a baseball player is white, black, or green. I just want to promote baseball by reaching out to these kids, not engage in racial politics, quotas, or social engineering BS. What's wrong with that?
If you're happy with the state things are in, and I believe there is a problem, well, we can just agree to disagree.
If the truth be known baseball is no longer a white or black players game--it is a foreign players game--Japanese, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Argentinian and Canadian---it is just the way it is--it is the nature of the beast
Funny thing when Omar Minaya took over as GM of the Mets the NY fans were in an uproar because he was making it a "Latino" team---don't hear much of that talk anymore because the Mets are in first place
Funny world we live in
Funny thing when Omar Minaya took over as GM of the Mets the NY fans were in an uproar because he was making it a "Latino" team---don't hear much of that talk anymore because the Mets are in first place
Funny world we live in
Bum,
LOL...Boston Tea Party....cute....
Baseball is a game for EVERYONE. You want to keep it "America's Game" ? I want to see the best players playing the game, I dont care who they are or where they are from.
I am a 3rd generation life long Red Sox fan, but I greatly appreciate the way Hideki Matsui plays this game for the Yankees. I love watching Johan Santana and Pedro Martinez pitch.
TR has it right. The game is already global, is not just an American game? Why would we want it to be?
The bottom line is right now players in other countries are more hungry to play the game than the majority of youths here in the states. The reasons are many and vary widely across the country. I believe it was Bob Ryan (not absolutely sure) who drove back to Boston form a RED Sox spring training a few years back and wrote an article about how he saw unused baseball fields all the way from FLA to MA. Kids were not out playing pickup games anymore, other things had grabbed their interest. That is not the case in many of the Latino countries.
There these kids play baseball constantly, and over the last 20 yrs MLB has been harvesting the best of these players.
We can put programs in place and conduct studies until we are blue in the face, the kids that want to play the game will play. Those who want to do other things are not going to come running because someone is claiming the game will lose its identity with out them. You have have already experienced this from what you stated in your earlier post. You offered to pay for them to play, and still you got noone to come. What was the reason? Was it basketball, or video games, or the fact that compared to other sports many kids look at baseball as a boring sport (not enough action).
In my view, we should by all means provide opportunity to ALL young people to play this great game.
If young blacks want to play, these programs that the inital article was talking about will provide them the opportunity. If they choose not to, for whatever reason, then that is their choice. It certainly is not the end of baseball as we know it. The game did not end when Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier and it didnt end MLB decided to go to a playoff system. It wont end if the population of blacks or whites or latinos playing the game changes. That is the beauty of the game, Baseball will always be Baseball.
LOL...Boston Tea Party....cute....
Baseball is a game for EVERYONE. You want to keep it "America's Game" ? I want to see the best players playing the game, I dont care who they are or where they are from.
I am a 3rd generation life long Red Sox fan, but I greatly appreciate the way Hideki Matsui plays this game for the Yankees. I love watching Johan Santana and Pedro Martinez pitch.
TR has it right. The game is already global, is not just an American game? Why would we want it to be?
The bottom line is right now players in other countries are more hungry to play the game than the majority of youths here in the states. The reasons are many and vary widely across the country. I believe it was Bob Ryan (not absolutely sure) who drove back to Boston form a RED Sox spring training a few years back and wrote an article about how he saw unused baseball fields all the way from FLA to MA. Kids were not out playing pickup games anymore, other things had grabbed their interest. That is not the case in many of the Latino countries.
There these kids play baseball constantly, and over the last 20 yrs MLB has been harvesting the best of these players.
We can put programs in place and conduct studies until we are blue in the face, the kids that want to play the game will play. Those who want to do other things are not going to come running because someone is claiming the game will lose its identity with out them. You have have already experienced this from what you stated in your earlier post. You offered to pay for them to play, and still you got noone to come. What was the reason? Was it basketball, or video games, or the fact that compared to other sports many kids look at baseball as a boring sport (not enough action).
In my view, we should by all means provide opportunity to ALL young people to play this great game.
If young blacks want to play, these programs that the inital article was talking about will provide them the opportunity. If they choose not to, for whatever reason, then that is their choice. It certainly is not the end of baseball as we know it. The game did not end when Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier and it didnt end MLB decided to go to a playoff system. It wont end if the population of blacks or whites or latinos playing the game changes. That is the beauty of the game, Baseball will always be Baseball.
NH, I agree with you, I don't think there is a whole lot that can be done, but I think it can't hurt to try.
Ball fields are being ripped out all over the country. Here in Spokane, s****r players are using the baseball fields more than the baseball players, and that worries me.
It didn't used to be that way. Baseball used to be a tremendously popular inner-city sport. I just think we can try to reinvigorate the sport and the most logical place to start is the cities. MLB agrees, and they're trying.
But you're right, it's THEIR choice. I'm not advocating any type of forcing the issue, just promoting.
I'm also glad we're seeing players from other countries. That's a good thing, not bad. But as an American and baseball fan, to see s****r become more popular here at home really hurts.
Ball fields are being ripped out all over the country. Here in Spokane, s****r players are using the baseball fields more than the baseball players, and that worries me.
It didn't used to be that way. Baseball used to be a tremendously popular inner-city sport. I just think we can try to reinvigorate the sport and the most logical place to start is the cities. MLB agrees, and they're trying.
But you're right, it's THEIR choice. I'm not advocating any type of forcing the issue, just promoting.
I'm also glad we're seeing players from other countries. That's a good thing, not bad. But as an American and baseball fan, to see s****r become more popular here at home really hurts.
Bum,
Best Of Luck in your efforts out there.
By the way, would you guys out west please, please take back some of this rain!!!!!
Best Of Luck in your efforts out there.
By the way, would you guys out west please, please take back some of this rain!!!!!