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quote:
Originally posted by Chairman:
quote:
In 1994 I had the best area code team that I ever had and 6 of the starting 9 were black. The last year I ran the team in 2001, I had 1 black kid on my team, and he was a friend of a friend.
hmm, very interesting, it appears things DID change after 1994

so scout, here's a quiz for you ...

how many good athletes and fans (all races) were driven away from baseball to other sports by YOUR strike??

btw, you don't have to answer if it's easier to just blame race & economics

but, if you gotta have someone to blame for athletes choosing other sports,
go stand in front of a mirror, again it was YOUR srtike



Chairman, To answer your quiz:

1.The attendance in baseball at both the major leagues and minor league levels is at an all time high.

2. It was not a strike, it was a lockout.

3. So, you feel that the reason that there are not many black kids playing college baseball is because there was a lockout in 1994?????

4. shake yourself
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
I'm not so smart, but I think his point is that the most important color in amateur baseball is green. I can't really disagree. Upper middle class I'm not so sure about, but it is definately solid middle class, with tens of thousands of kids touring the country in Chevy Suburbans and Tahoes all summer starting at age 14, or earlier. That takes cash and lots of it.

The days of immigrants playing free sandlot games in the park, getting signed by the old cigar chomping scout, or the local college coach are pretty much long gone, if they ever existed at all.




Good post.
I need some help fitting things together

01) playing amature baseball takes money
02) amature baseball talent is down
03) Latin countries are not wealthy
04) Latin talent is up

btwI,
at the recent Lebron Classic AAU tourny in NE Ohio, the teams & fans that didn't arrive in Suburans & Tahoes arrived in "laid out" charter buses. The expected $5,000,000 economic impact for the 3 DAY EVENT was reported to be an "low-estimate". There are NO breakdowns by race, because they apparently view their guys by how good they play & not what color they are

btwII
"legion ball going down the tubes" has been only good for players. when legion was the "only competitve game in town", if you didn't make your legion team (or if there was no room) you played rec ball or didn't play at
all.

jmo
Last edited by Chairman
Scout

Tell me this doesn't sound familiar. Players traveling from town to town, tournament to tournament all summer, working with personal coaches in the offseason with regular lessons, video swing analysis, a steady stream of the best equipment to play with, trying to keep up, with the best players scrambling for national rankings, partial college scholarships and possible (starting) low paying professional opportunities.

Thats exactly how the AJGA junior golf scene has operated for the past 25 years.

Baseball is looking more and more like it every day. I will give you that.
Last edited by Dad04
quote:
Originally posted by Chairman:
I need some help fitting things together

01) playing amature baseball takes money
02) amature baseball talent is down
03) Latin countries are not wealthy
04) Latin talent is up

btwI,
at the recent Lebron Classic AAU tourny in NE Ohio, the teams & fans that didn't arrive in Suburans & Tahoes arrived in "laid out" charter buses. The expected $5,000,000 economic impact for the 3 DAY EVENT was reported to be an "low-estimate". There are NO breakdowns by race, because they apparently view their guys by how good they play & not what color they are

btwII
"legion ball going down the tubes" has been only good for players. when legion was the "only competitve game in town", if you didn't make your legion team (or if there was no room) you played rec ball or didn't play at
all.

jmo



1. Playing amatuer baseball does take money.
2.Amatuer baseball talent is down
3.Latin countries are not wealthy
4.Latin talent is the same as it has always been......very good. There are more Latin players in the big leagues because the talent level in the USA is down.
5.The best Latin kids get to play against each other growing up, they don't have to pay 20 grand to play summer ball.
6. You can see how well DAddy ball has helped kids get better......in another 20 years,the American Player in the Big Leagues will be the minority.
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
Scout

Tell me this doesn't sound familiar. Players traveling from town to town, tournament to tournament all summer, working with personal coaches in the offseason with regular lessons, video swing analysis, a steady stream of the best equipment to play with, trying to keep up, with the best players scrambling for, national rankings, partial college scholarships and possible professional opportunities.

Thats exactly how the AJGA junior golf scene has operated for the past 25 years.

Baseball is looking more and more like it every day. I will give you that.



Golf is the ultimate rich man's game.
quote:
1.The attendance in baseball at both the major leagues and minor league levels is at an all time high.

the minor leagues were NOT on strike Confused

quote:
So, you feel that the reason that there are not many black kids playing college baseball is because there was a lockout in 1994?????



OK, I shook myself

YOU attached signinficance to the 1994 date, I just went with it. I'm just not buying into your "racial/socio conspiracy theories"

From MLB: "attendance was still down by 15% in 1998 from its pre-strike level."
that certainly indicates less interest

and fortunatly 12 yrs later many markets have recovered from the strike damage Roll Eyes
also many fans had to be lured back (or bought back) by the dozen or so shiny-new-
fan friendly ballparks with playgrounds, delis, resurants and shopping centers in them,
which those same fans were forced to pay for kidding

you "might" have an argument if the player "you decribe" as under-represented in amature baseball were sitting home depressed by their limited opportunities, but like I noted above, a few thousand great athletes showed up in NE Ohio and from what I saw on TV (Fox Sports) ... just NO signs of depression Smile

btw ... I've never been able to find Area Code games on the satellite, what channel carries them?
Last edited by Chairman
Always interesting viewpoints in this topic. People see the problem, if they feel there is a problem, differently. More importantly, rather than discuss the problem why not discuss possible solutions.

Money – Yes, it is important no matter how you look at it. Whether a low income player can afford to attend certain events or play on certain teams, it can be expensive. “The fee to play” is a very small part of that expense! Someone from the West Coast could get invited to an event on the East Coast with no player fee. However, we all know how much it costs to travel coast to coast, let alone hotel, meals and transportation once the player gets there. In fact, that is the major expense!

The Aflac All American Classic, is the only event I know of that covers everything including equipment, meals, air travel, lodging, transportation at the event, etc. And that game is nationally televised! Problem is… Only 38 players will get that opportunity.

Teams – The very best athletes/baseball players do not always need to pay to play on some of the best travel teams in the country. There are several teams that recruit the very best players and take care of all the expenses during the season. Most of these teams play in highly scouted events like the WWBA Tournaments in Marietta, GA. This means under privileged kids with exceptional talent don’t have to pay a dime, in some cases, to get maximum national level exposure. There are a lot of teams who are looking for the very best talent in the country. Most of the very best teams that do charge a fee, will still help out the very talented kid who just can’t afford it.

Major League Tryouts are events kid’s can attend at no cost and if the player is outstanding, the other things start to happen. College camps can do the same thing, but they do cost money to attend in most cases.

Then there are those out there actively promoting the game and searching for the most talented athletes and trying to get them involved in baseball. There are a lot of talented big city kids in New York playing baseball. There are a bunch of people trying to find these kids. There are a lot of people promoting the game.

My point in all this is… Our goal should be to first and foremost promote the game. Kids have to enjoy what they’re doing or they do something else. People are best doing the things they enjoy. Kids have to have fun!!! It doesn’t start when kids get to high school. It all starts at a much younger age when young kids are introduced to the game. I believe most kids do get introduced to the game at some point. Some are turned off by the initial introduction; others experience a positive memory and fall in love with the game.

My suggestion… Next time you’re driving down the road and you see a real young kid playing catch… Yell out the window… “Great Arm kid” or “Nice Hands kid”… I know it sounds stupid, but I do it all the time. It makes kids feel good about themselves! Feeling good is fun, playing baseball is fun. Someone recognizing you’re good at something is fun!

This all started 51 years ago when I was 8 years old playing on the playground. An older guy from the neighborhood stopped by to watch. I was playing in the infield and a hard groundball hit me right in the chest. I picked it up and threw it in. The old guy yells out… “Great play son”!!! Of course, later I was to understand it really wasn’t a great play at all. But I didn’t know it at the time and felt like a million bucks. I think that old man hooked me on baseball that day. It seems like that was just yesterday in my mind. I later was told by the other kids that the old guy was a former high school coach. I owe him a lot and he doesn’t even know it! I bet he did the same thing to a lot of young kids. I can't remember what he looked like, but his words stayed engraved in my mind.

I understand that we all can’t just drive around looking for kids to make feel good. However, don’t miss every opportunity you have because you might create a baseball player or at least another baseball fan. I believe this and it doesn’t really matter what the race or religion is. You just might create a life long memory in that young kid!

Sorry, if this all seems kind of corny… But I am from Iowa. Wink
25 ACTIVE TIMES 30 TEAMS EQUALS 500 ACTIVE PLAYERS

A recent article mentioned Hispanic decent averages about 8 per roster, but use 25%, so eliminate 125 from the equation, so 375 players make up white/black and other.

If 6% are black, that equals 30 players.

The US population estimates are about 68% white, 13 % black, and 13% Hispanic/Latino and the balance a mixture of others.

The estimated white male population is 115,000,000 while the black male population is 17,000,000

17/115 means for every black male there are 6.5 white males. There are according to SUNNEWS 9% blacks on MLB rosters, or about 50 players.

50/325 is about one black player for about every 6.5 whites/other...........seems MLB rosters are somewhat proportional to the US population?

I didn't comb all the active rosters, but these numbers may be close. If you want to talk "disproportional", look at the NBA and the NFL, as well as the NHL, but why, hockey is a joke!!
Last edited by OLDSLUGGER8
quote:
Originally posted by Chairman:
quote:
1.The attendance in baseball at both the major leagues and minor league levels is at an all time high.

the minor leagues were NOT on strike Confused

quote:
So, you feel that the reason that there are not many black kids playing college baseball is because there was a lockout in 1994?????



OK, I shook myself

YOU attached signinficance to the 1994 date, I just went with it. I'm just not buying into your "racial/socio conspiracy theories"

From MLB: "attendance was still down by 15% in 1998 from its pre-strike level."
that certainly indicates less interest

and fortunatly 12 yrs later many markets have recovered from the strike damage Roll Eyes
also many fans had to be lured back (or bought back) by the dozen or so shiny-new-fan friendly- ballparks with playgrounds etc, which those same fans were forced to pay for kidding

you "might" have an argument if the player "you decribe" as under-represented in amature baseball were sitting home depressed by their limited opportunities, but like I noted above, a few thousand great athletes showed up in NE Ohio and from what I saw on TV (Fox Sports) ... just NO signs of depression Smile

btw ... I've never been able to find Area Code games on the satellite, what channel carries them?



It is 2006, not 1998 and the minor leagues are also pro baseball. It was a lockout, not a strike, although you seem to refuse to admit that it was. The basketball kids in Ohio......did they pay their way or did a big shoe company or hamburger company pay it for them??????

The area code games are not on TV.I guess you would not want your son to play in them if that is the case????

Put your kid on a travel team and then send him to 3-4 showcases in the summer.Add up the cash you have spent and then let me know how much it is.
quote:
This all started 51 years ago when I was 8 years old playing on the playground. An older guy from the neighborhood stopped by to watch. I was playing in the infield and a hard groundball hit me right in the chest. I picked it up and threw it in. The old guy yells out… “Great play son”!!! Of course, later I was to understand it really wasn’t a great play at all. But I didn’t know it at the time and felt like a million bucks. I think that old man hooked me on baseball that day. It seems like that was just yesterday in my mind. I later was told by the other kids that the old guy was a former high school coach. I owe him a lot and he doesn’t even know it! I bet he did the same thing to a lot of young kids. I can't remember what he looked like, but his words stayed engraved in my mind.


Classic story applaude

I don't have the answers, but I really like your idea of promoting the game. When there is genuine interest in it, the kids will play it.
quote:
by scout ... The area code games are not on TV.I guess you would not want your son to play in them if that is the case????


the discussion is about attacting kids form the M-TV generation to baseball ...
you made my point expressing views clearly out of touch with today's kids noidea


quote:
they don't have to pay 20 grand to play summer ball
bait & switch
quote:
put your kid on a travel team and then send him to 3-4 showcases in the summer.Add up the cash you have spent and then let me know how much it is.
I'm not real good with numbers as I can't even figure out how he'd play a summer schedule missing 4 weekends plus travel time to and from for showcases.
Confused
Last edited by Chairman
Hello Jerry and BB Scout;

This discussion is not providing any solutions. You can all be certain, the game is changing; players, parents, coaches, agents and MLB will need to adjust to a different "mind set" of the American player.
Basically he wants an opportunity, however he wants this opportunity similar to DSL dial up on his computer NOW!

In California, it is "affordable" housing.
States of Arizona, Oregon, Washington, New Mexico, Nevada have benefit from the "high home" prices in California.

As the founder of the Area Code games [1987-2004] and the Goodwill Series [1983-2006].
We never had a problem finding players of all Nationality's and race for the International and Area Code events. Because of scouts like BB and others, we always found a method.
No one was denied an opportunity.

Please use your history to create new opportunities for all players, regardless of income, race or nationally.

Goodwill Series Inc. is now planning International Baseball and Softball Academy's for players ages 14-18 from Latin America, North America, China, Japan, Australia and Korea. Forty-two players in the World Games played in the Goodwill Series events.

Jerry; I like the story of the confident building by a few kind words. I have often stopped my car to do the same.

Bob Williams
Scout,
I don't See it as a negative, that there are more travel team's
then ever before.
I believe that baseball has made a resurgence, Not only in the suburbs but also in the inner city. If a player want's to Play.

I would agree that the Team's might not be as Talented up and down the Roster.
Like you said there were only 3 Elite Team's in the Area.
Now there are many many more team's.
There are Lot's of very Talented player's out there, and yes they are spread out.
But the Talent is out there.
There's nothing wrong with Kid's wanting to play the best Competition they can play Against.
Even if they don't get invited to super elite showcase status.
There still very Talented. the EH
quote:
Originally posted by Chairman:
quote:
by scout ... The area code games are not on TV.I guess you would not want your son to play in them if that is the case????


the discussion is about attacting kids form the M-TV generation to baseball ...
you made my point expressing views clearly out of touch with today's kids noidea


quote:
they don't have to pay 20 grand to play summer ball
bait & switch
quote:
put your kid on a travel team and then send him to 3-4 showcases in the summer.Add up the cash you have spent and then let me know how much it is.
I'm not real good with numbers as I can't even figure out how he'd play a summer schedule missing 4 weekends plus travel time to and from for showcases.
Confused



The topic is about why there are very few black kids playing college baseball.If you are confused as to how kids can play Daddy ball and still go to 3-4 showcases during the summer.......don't be. It is easy, just pay the cash. Some kids with lots of cash just go to showcases all summer. They pitch 2 innings and then move on to the next showcase and never play on a team.
Scout
quote:
The topic is about why there are very few black kids playing college baseball.If you are confused as to how kids can play Daddy ball and still go to 3-4 showcases during the summer.......don't be. It is easy, just pay the cash. Some kids with lots of cash just go to showcases all summer. They pitch 2 innings and then move on to the next showcase and never play on a team.


That's not Baseball that's a player looking for a Job.
There's nothing wrong with Showcasing yourself, if that player's think they have the Talent to Play MLB.

It's just not my Idea of Why you Play the Game.
You Play the Game because it is Fun.
And if by Chance you get noticed and given a chance to Play beyond HS, College, Minor League's, to the Major's.
You've Beaten all the Odd's.
It wouldn't be worth it if it Wasn't FUN
Lets stop being full of ourselves and continue to promote the game.
PG, great post as some of us want only to promote the game and let kids know that its full of opportunities.
Take any and every opportunity to let kids know that they're hard work and efforts are enjoyed and appreciated by us older folk. Then they will enjoy playing and popularity will grow and we won't have to beat another dog to death like this one.
quote:
Some kids with lots of cash just go to showcases all summer. They pitch 2 innings and then move on to the next showcase and never play on a team.


I was tempted to take that route after a negative travel team experience after freshman year. Luckily, other opportunities presented themselves and fun was had by all the rest of the way....and still is. Smile
Lots of great posts here! Six pages of posts and all very civil on a controversial subject. I want to add one thing to this discussion. I truly beleive that we all tend to agree on some of the basic concepts of how sports, and especially baseball, should be played. Best players play, cheer a great defensive play even if it was a kid on the other team that made it, and shake hands after the game.

But what about the people that run the sports world. The owners, commissioners and businessmen. Do they see sports the same way we do? I don't think so. They include many factors other than talent and performance into the equation when they decide who gets to play and who doesn't. The bottom line is money. It's a myth that owners only care about getting the best players because they need to win to make money. Most owners lose and lose often. They make money year after year and never win.

I honestly do not feel that the Major Leagues are comprised of the best baseball players on the planet. They are brought to the Majors for reasons that have nothing to do with their on field contributions. And because there are so many underskilled players, they are able to enjoy some success because they are not competing against the world's best, but against other underskilled players.

Here are several things, in my opinion, that are considered by the powers that be when going after a player. These are not in any order.

1.) Power/speed. The 2 things that fans want to see. Bring up any humpty-dumpty strong boy out there and don't bother to count the mounting strike-outs. Artificial homers over phony fences are what sell tickets.

2.) Quotas. Name a company or business that doesn't have them. An earlier poster said the Majors had 8% African-Americans. The implication is that it is a low number. Maybe it is too high. The NBA was accused of filling the end of the bench with white players to help raise the number of white players in the NBA. They were afraid that if the NBA went completely black they would lose some of their white fan base.
In baseball recently, teams have been attacked in the media for being too white. The Houston Astros were in the World Series last year without a black starter. Because it was such a big story, and looked upon negatively, they quickly made some moves to make their team more diverse. The Oakland A's did the same thing when they were accused of being too white. In 2002, the Angels won a World Series with the only black starter being Garrett Anderson. Even though they had won it all, a new owner came in over the winter and dismantled the team after getting bad press. Better to be diverse than win.
The Mets new owner, a Hispanic, has openly stated he is bringing in Hispanic players. And he has. But African Americans(and whites) have been totally silent in regards to this blatent racism. If a white owner had said he was bringing in white players he would be run out of baseball and vilified for life.
Anyway, racial quotas are an issue in the pros and at all colleges. Not by the coaches, who want the best talent, but by the admissions office.

3.) Cost. Bringing Hispanics to the Minor Leagues in droves and hoping some pan out is very cost effective for baseball owners. They get Hispanic players at a fraction of the cost of an American College player. Many College ballplayers are denied opportunity at the next level because of, simply put, baseball hiring cheap foreign labor as they shop for bargains.

I want to make one more point about the opportunity issue. It seems to me that there were many more blacks in baseball back in the 60's and 70's when blacks were not as well off as they are today. There are many more middle class blacks today who don't live in a major city and have a better life than their parents.

I live in central NJ and my sons school has every ethnic persuasion possible. A true melting pot. So how do the sports teams break down. Football - blacks and whites.
Baseball - All white, one black
Basketball Mostly black, couple of whites
Tennis - All Indians, one white
Lacrosse - All white
Golf - All white
Track - Mostly blacks, some whites and Indians

It's amazing how the teams don't even come close to representing the diversity that attends the school.

Bottom line why there are 6% blacks playing College baseball: It's a matter of won't, not can't.
Besides personal preference, here's my take on the lack of black players in college baseball:

Resources - Limited number of college baseball scholarships which places a much greater emphasis on academics, unlike basketball and football where full athletic scholarships are commonplace.

Popularity - NCAA basketball and football games are all over TV drawing millions of viewers and fans whereas NCAA baseball is virtually non-existent. Even H.S. baseball pales in comparsion to H.S. football and basketball in terms of media coverage. Look at the TV coverage of the NFL and NBA draft which is mostly comprised of star black athletes. This has a tremendous impact on these kids. Poll black H.S. student/athletes around the country and ask them who the top black college football and basketball players are and then ask them the same question of black college baseball players.

Commitment - Baseball is primarily a game of skill that involves years and years of repetitive training, unlike basketball and football where one can pretty much thrive on size and athleticism alone. It's a long and arduous journey that offers little in terms of publicity until you reach the big show should you be so skilled.

Glory and Money - Unlike basball, basketball and football afford these kids the opportunity to become STARS during there college careers whether or not they go pro. Thus most will opt for the early stardom and much shorter road to that proverbial pot-of-gold that basketball and football can offer.

JMHO.
Here's my question; why do people feel there needs to be diversity? People have said that there aren't enough black people in baseball. What number is "enough"? Why does there need to be more white people in basketball...what number is "enough"? Would people really be happy if there were mandatory quotas to participate?
Well, Fungo, I would suggest it's a friction-reducing bearing consisting essentially of a ring-shaped track containing freely revolving hard metal (in this case, steel) balls against which a rotating shaft or other part turns. But that's just an opinion Wink.

Why is diversity in sports a cause for discussion? If you're Black, it was a long, hard battle to be "allowed" on the field --- now, a mere 60 years later, there seem to be few young Black ballplayers ---- is it lack of interest, lack of resources, or do they just not care for the game? Is someone/society/whatever preventing them from getting a start in baseball?

If you're a part of MLB, fewer Black ballplayers may mean fewer Black fans --- and nobody wants to ignore a complete demographic. Of course, the weird thing about that one is that doesn't seem to be an issue with basketball where the race ratio is reversed. (Because White guys were never excluded, they just got beaten out of the job???) Although I find the whole pro basketball gestalt of wealthy White Folk watching the Athletic Black Guys perform in an arena a bit atavisitc.

I also get confused by the 'few Black ballplayers' when Latin players of the same African ancestry are outboarded. Edgar Rentaria is not Black, by this thinking, he's Latin. Huh? (My ancestry is Celtic, so I guess I'm not White, I'm Irish).
There are definite formulas to follow when developing any media product and the use of division between people for whatever the reason is as good a vehichle as any available. The disclosure of numbers should not bother any, but if numbers lead to discovery of a real and unjust wrong then action should be material.

I think that NIKE probably has had as much to do with steering Americas black youth over the past 15 years as any other factor with respect to influencing their desires to participate in particular sports. The marketing strategy that assualted everyone and changed the dress of an entire generation headlined with a Basketball Star. The most successful marketing platform ever utilized a person with which every young black american could readily identify and readily attempt to be like. You would have been hard pressed to find many households in america throughout the 90s that were unaware of who Michael Jordan was or that didn't own or want to own a pair of nike shoes. Kids dream to be great and many want to be great in sports and during a long strech of time many wanted to be like Mike.
If the ugliness of an individuals character or that of an organization or society denies opportunity to a particular group than real measures should be taken to strike down their methods, but if not, then present the invitation to all and let the interested enjoy.
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
In 1994 I had the best area code team that I ever had and 6 of the starting 9 were black. The last year I ran the team in 2001, I had 1 black kid on my team, and he was a friend of a friend.


quote:
Originally posted by PCX:
I think that NIKE probably has had as much to do with steering Americas black youth over the past 15 years as any other factor with respect to influencing their desires to participate in particular sports. The marketing strategy that assualted everyone and changed the dress of an entire generation headlined with a Basketball Star. The most successful marketing platform ever utilized a person with which every young black american could readily identify and readily attempt to be like. You would have been hard pressed to find many households in america throughout the 90s that were unaware of who Michael Jordan was or that didn't own or want to own a pair of nike shoes. Kids dream to be great and many want to be great in sports and during a long strech of time many wanted to be like Mike.


I think I figured it out.

In 1994, everything was great; many blacks had been and were still playing baseball. Then, Michael Jordan played baseball in 1994 and failed...OMG!!!

Nike then obviously steered the black athlete away from baseball. Now it looks like Nike will be steering our youth right into socker, if the newest commercials are any indication.

This recent gestalt has me feeling a little atavisitic (for which I am taking antibiotics and magnesium hydroxide).

Please let me know if you need me to figure out anything else for you.

body-builder

Mike F
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