Why are players struggling with BBCOR?

Cause they need to learn how to hit. I love the fact baseball has went with BBCOR bats because it does provide a safer game (although there is still a dangerous element cause you will never get rid of it) and it brings baseball back to skill rather than luck.

Nothing stinks more than a terrible hitter getting a hit or even a homerun on a dominating pitcher all because he got lucky. There's always the chance of getting a hit / HR but now it's tougher.

Hitters need to realize there is an opposite field and they have to start making adjustments at the plate instead of just swinging a weapon.

I think it's a great change and offense will bounce back once kids learn to hit again but it won't be like it was - thankfully.

Because adults have made a big deal out of it and have them believing that it's the arrow not the Indian.

I agree with both of you, kids are going to learn to hit, rather than just swing an aluminum rocket launcher. NDD is correct in saying that people believe it's the arrow, not the Indian.

I believe it's because of two things: 1) Not being in the correct sequence and 2) Relying too much on the arms. I won't say not using the hands, because then I'll start another debate between myself and NDD...

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I agree with both of you, kids are going to learn to hit, rather than just swing an aluminum rocket launcher. NDD is correct in saying that people believe it's the arrow, not the Indian.

I believe it's because of two things: 1) Not being in the correct sequence and 2) Relying too much on the arms. I won't say not using the hands, because then I'll start another debate between myself and NDD...

I agree with the arms (relying on the upper half) and "not being in the correct sequence" which is a huge generalization.

However, the fact remains that those who aren't effective Wood Bat hitters are the same "non-hitters" with BBCOR. Not surprising since we saw it last year in the College game.

I too will generalize and lump these guys into two primary categories;

!. They lack rhythm (sequence) from the bottom up and thru the baseball so they don't generate bat speed.

AND;

2. They haven"t had to learn that with smaller sweet spots, as with wood, one must learn where the hands need to be, in a spacial relationship to the baseball, to find the bat and ball sweet spot. It is a learned skill that some are not capable of learning.

With BESR metal none of that was necessary with bats where the entire barrel was in fact "sweet!"

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Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I agree with both of you, kids are going to learn to hit, rather than just swing an aluminum rocket launcher. NDD is correct in saying that people believe it's the arrow, not the Indian.

I believe it's because of two things: 1) Not being in the correct sequence and 2) Relying too much on the arms. I won't say not using the hands, because then I'll start another debate between myself and NDD...

I agree with the arms (relying on the upper half) and "not being in the correct sequence" which is a huge generalization.

However, the fact remains that those who aren't effective Wood Bat hitters are the same "non-hitters" with BBCOR. Not surprising since we saw it last year in the College game.

I too will generalize and lump these guys into two primary categories;

!. They lack rhythm (sequence) from the bottom up and thru the baseball so they don't generate bat speed.

AND;

2. They haven"t had to learn that with smaller sweet spots, as with wood, one must learn where the hands need to be, in a spacial relationship to the baseball, to find the bat and ball sweet spot. It is a learned skill that some are not capable of learning.

With BESR metal none of that was necessary with bats where the entire barrel was in fact "sweet!"

I agree with you. However, I want to point out that my use of the word sequence is very specific. When I say "sequence", I mean the following actions:
Coil-Stretch-Separate

My HS Sophomore is murdering the ball with a bbcor. 5'11" 160lbs and he hit a 400'line drive the other night. He said it felt like a besr bat... Because he hit it on the sweet spot! You guys are 100% correct. If you can hit, you can hit with a broomstick.
Another thing I've noticed is some kids seem to recognize the location and type of pitch very very early in the delivery/pitch. My son and another RARELY swing at a pitch out of the strike zone. RARELY get fooled by a pitch. These two kids are putting the barrel on GOOD PITCHES. I LOVE the bbcor change. I always knew my kid was better than most but those "rocket launchers" allowed a lot of kids to turn heads with one good swing. Now you have to earn it

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
High school baseball went over to BBCOR this year. Offense seems to be down. Way down. So, why do you think players are struggling with BBCOR?

The same reason that they would struggle if it were wood. It is all in the mechanics of the swing.

I'm seeing plenty of power hits (doubles/triples) and home runs in these parts. Could be because many of these kids play wood bat fall leagues and practice all winter with wood.

In three games so far, we've seen just one HR and a few doubles.

What I'm seeing though is an awful lot of 5-3 and 6-3 weak GB outs that maybe last year with BESR were still hot enough to get through. Also have seen a few weak liners to SS that maybe last year would've blooped into shallow LCF for hits.

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Originally posted by RedSoxFan21:
I'm seeing plenty of power hits (doubles/triples) and home runs in these parts. Could be because many of these kids play wood bat fall leagues and practice all winter with wood.

Practicing with wood and Wood summer and Fall leagues should be the norm these days as I certainly can't remember that not being the case since about HS age. All that practice doesn't change the performance of BBCOR vs. BESR. Those that have mechanics that enable them to drive the baseball, can still drill it with BBCOR or WOOD BUT not to the distances of BESR.

Because when you hit a ball with a BBCOR bat it doesnt go as far as it does as it would have with a BESR bat, regardless of how good your swing is.

quote:

Originally posted by Walawala:

Because when you hit a ball with a BBCOR bat it doesnt go as far as it does as it would have with a BESR bat, regardless of how good your swing is.

I kind of scratched my head when I first saw this thread and thought the exact same thing. That's the entire point of the BBCOR bats. There's no other reason.

quote:

Originally posted by RedSoxFan21:
I'm seeing plenty of power hits (doubles/triples) and home runs in these parts. Could be because many of these kids play wood bat fall leagues and practice all winter with wood.

Seeing the same here. For my son metal is reserved for the high school season; summer and fall are wood.

Been over .400 all year while this time last year as a 10th grader was barely .200. Part of that was everything coming together as far as mechanics, but if you put sweet spot on it you'll still drill it.

Our home field, zero home runs, this year and two last year. Plenty of doubles. Also in the case of my kid, since I film all at-bats, just about every well-hit ball deep in the OF that was caught was hit close to the end of the bat. So maybe some of those sneak through with BESR, but now, that's just a mis-hit ball.

What I see is the guys that can really hit are separating themselves from the the weaker hitters with BBCOR...

The gap between them is growing larger too...

The reason: The guys that can hit grow more confident really fast and the guys who are failing are losing all confidence, quicker...

It's amazing to watch actually...

My eighth grader practices with a BBCOR in anticipation of next year. On his initial swing he hit it close to the end and the result was indicative. His reaction was priceless. He followed the ball’s flight, paused, then looked at me with a big grin on his face. When I asked why he was smiling, he said “So that’s what all the noise is about. My Voodoo (BESR) would’ve launched that!” I chuckled back at him and said, “Welcome to the Brave New World, kid!

I'm happy to say he seems to have adjusted quite well to the BBCOR, but we hit nearly every day and spend a great deal of time refining his mechanics. Some of his friends and teammates have not fared so well and won't relinquish their BESRs for even a BP session.

quote:

Originally posted by Bolts-Coach-PR:
What I see is the guys that can really hit are separating themselves from the the weaker hitters with BBCOR...

The gap between them is growing larger too...

The reason: The guys that can hit grow more confident really fast and the guys who are failing are losing all confidence, quicker...

It's amazing to watch actually...

I agree. And fun.

if taught to hit with wood the hs player would now have no problem----this is another of basic basebalelements that players today are lacking

quote:

Originally posted by Sandman:
…What I'm seeing though is an awful lot of 5-3 and 6-3 weak GB outs that maybe last year with BESR were still hot enough to get through. Also have seen a few weak liners to SS that maybe last year would've blooped into shallow LCF for hits.

What I’ve seen in the last 2 seasons with BBCOR, is for just about every weak grounder that MIGHT have gotten through the IF, or every weak liner to short that maybe would have blooped into the OF for a hit with a BESR, a slow hit grounder that would have been a routine play, or a ball that would have carrier to an OFr with a BESR, are turning into hits.

But it doesn’t really matter because there’s a new law of the land, and people have to get used to it no matter what they think. Out here in Ca where we were using BBCORs last season, everyone has pretty much gotten over being obsessed with the change, and is just playing ball. So far this season I don’t think I’ve heard more than a handful of comments about it one way or the other.

I went through the much bigger change from nothing to drop 3 BESRs, and the exact same thing happened. There was a lot of angst floating around about how the game was being ruined, but guess what, 2 years later it was all forgotten. The only thing wrong with BESR, was there wasn’t anything to allow for technology being able to make the bats much better after they’d already passed the tests. This time they made the rules a lot better.

This is our first season with BBCOR and I haven't anyone mention it one way or the other except for parents talking about having to buy a new bat.

Yesterday's game was 13-8. I've seen lots of doubles and a homer or two. It does look like balls in the infield are hit less sharply.

my son is a soph pitcher in college. not allowed to hit or take bp. He was a decent power hitter in HS and hears all day at college how the bbcor bats are dead. He was home for Easter, took bp with a bbcor, jacked a bunch over the fence after not picking up a bat since last summer. Came back to me and said " no difference". Just one opinion.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
if taught to hit with wood the hs player would now have no problem----this is another of basic basebalelements that players today are lacking

Again, I'd rather we go back to wood. I hate aluminum. Hate it, hate it, hate it. BBCOR is better than BESR. No question about it. But wood reinforces good mechanics, and forces the kids who rely on their arms out of the game early.

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Originally posted by J H:

quote:

Originally posted by Walawala:

Because when you hit a ball with a BBCOR bat it doesnt go as far as it does as it would have with a BESR bat, regardless of how good your swing is.

I kind of scratched my head when I first saw this thread and thought the exact same thing. That's the entire point of the BBCOR bats. There's no other reason.

This is going to sound like nitpicking, but I believe the point is the ball doesn't travel as fast. The change was not implemented to keep outfielders from running as deep, but to protect those in the infield, particularly pitchers.

Of course the impact for those who hit to the outfield is that balls don't go as deep, but really rather it travels 300 or 315 doesn't make a difference in most fields.

For players who hit to the infield, the ball is traveling more slowly, so speed is rewarded. Infielders are having to adjust.

I'm in the wood camp anyway, but BBCOR is better than BESR.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
if taught to hit with wood the hs player would now have no problem----this is another of basic basebalelements that players today are lacking

Again, I'd rather we go back to wood. I hate aluminum. Hate it, hate it, hate it. BBCOR is better than BESR. No question about it. But wood reinforces good mechanics, and forces the kids who rely on their arms out of the game early.

I pretty much agree with this 100% except I really doubt we will go to wood bats again. Too much money is tied up in aluminum bats for them to ever go away. You are correct in that wood bats teaches you to become a good hitter but I think we will get close to this with BBCOR bats in the near future. It won't be the same because BBCOR bats still have a little more forgiveness than a wood bat but it's not ridiculous like it was under BESR.

My kids aren't really struggling. Our average is up about 20 points.

However our slugging pct is down about 25 points and we're average about 1/2 a run less a game than last year, and I think those two numbers go hand in hand.

I'm thinking the reduced pop has lead to a few less extra bases.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
if taught to hit with wood the hs player would now have no problem----this is another of basic basebalelements that players today are lacking

Again, I'd rather we go back to wood. I hate aluminum. Hate it, hate it, hate it. BBCOR is better than BESR. No question about it. But wood reinforces good mechanics, and forces the kids who rely on their arms out of the game early.

I pretty much agree with this 100% except I really doubt we will go to wood bats again. Too much money is tied up in aluminum bats for them to ever go away. You are correct in that wood bats teaches you to become a good hitter but I think we will get close to this with BBCOR bats in the near future. It won't be the same because BBCOR bats still have a little more forgiveness than a wood bat but it's not ridiculous like it was under BESR.

True. Louisville Slugger said something once about "aluminum bats being a multi-million dollar industry." And every year, their "new and improved" model is basically the same thing with different graphic design. A lot like Detroit's way of differentiating their products...

agree, it's the hitting mechanics that are to blame. Funny how the kids who are not htting blame the bat, esp. with faster pitchers, but when they are gainst a kid throwing batting practice and they get a few good hits, they don't blame the bat anymore. The bigger kids esp. have been successful in the past swinging upper body only and hitting on a small field, bu when they get to HS they are usu. struggling by Jr. yr.Just watch the kids on a t or hitting wiffe balls-you can see some of the bad mechanics. I would video all kids and try to work on the big problems. Then video at end of season and see what you re seeing. Problem is coaches don't have time or rarely practice once season starts.We had 9 games scheduled in 13 days and no rainouts. Shocker, we are struggling with pitching and errors in field and there is no time to practice and work on the problems.Frustration is setting in and I can see some of the kids with potential quitting team in a yr or two. If players are not improving and having fun then they will quit.

TR;

Today I learned that my home town, Adrian Michigan has a high school "wood bat" high school tournament [4th year] at Adrian College.

In 1987, when I started the Area Code games, no team or organization used wood bats. With the pro scouts and my belief as yours that wood teaches "hitting". Since that time in 1987, I have added the "high tee"to my recommendations for advanced hitting "self teaching" improvement of skill.

Mike Diaz [remember him Pirates] and Edgar Martinez [Mariners] supports this philosophy. What is your opinion?

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by playball2011:
agree, it's the hitting mechanics that are to blame. Funny how the kids who are not htting blame the bat, esp. with faster pitchers, but when they are gainst a kid throwing batting practice and they get a few good hits, they don't blame the bat anymore. The bigger kids esp. have been successful in the past swinging upper body only and hitting on a small field, bu when they get to HS they are usu. struggling by Jr. yr.Just watch the kids on a t or hitting wiffe balls-you can see some of the bad mechanics. I would video all kids and try to work on the big problems. Then video at end of season and see what you re seeing. Problem is coaches don't have time or rarely practice once season starts.We had 9 games scheduled in 13 days and no rainouts. Shocker, we are struggling with pitching and errors in field and there is no time to practice and work on the problems.Frustration is setting in and I can see some of the kids with potential quitting team in a yr or two. If players are not improving and having fun then they will quit.

Mechanics ARE the issue. And it's as simple as this: Arms vs. Hands.

quote:

Mechanics ARE the issue. And it's as simple as this: Arms vs. Hands.

Arms vs. hands? Not sure what you mean. I believe it has a lot to do with the upper back side load/throw being conected to the lower back side. Along with many other issues that poor hitters have (of course).

Did you all know that the BBCOR bats are ballanced completely differently when compared to wood bats?... The handle of the BBCOR bats are more than twice as heavy as the wood bats are. That means the barrel is heavier in the wood bats.

Weight manipulation in the bats is the next thing that needs to end in the aluminum bat world. They should just create a bat that has the same specs as if it were wood.

I am not really seeing a struggle with BBCOR. I do not hear any complaining from the kids, but these are Calif kids so they are getting use to it.

I will say, kids who are plus hitters or hitters with plus power are still hammering the ball hard. No change here. In fact, I think plus power kids are a in huge demand.

It seems that year 2 of the BBCOR bats are more balanced then year 1 and I think they will continue to improve.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy33:

quote:

Mechanics ARE the issue. And it's as simple as this: Arms vs. Hands.

Arms vs. hands? Not sure what you mean. I believe it has a lot to do with the upper back side load/throw being conected to the lower back side. Along with many other issues that poor hitters have (of course).

Did you all know that the BBCOR bats are ballanced completely differently when compared to wood bats?... The handle of the BBCOR bats are more than twice as heavy as the wood bats are. That means the barrel is heavier in the wood bats.

Weight manipulation in the bats is the next thing that needs to end in the aluminum bat world. They should just create a bat that has the same specs as if it were wood.

What I mean is knob to the ball vs. barrel to the ball. Or, as you would say it, the hands being separate from the power source vs. the hands being connected to the lower body's force generation.

quote:

Originally posted by Sdlefty:
I am not really seeing a struggle with BBCOR. I do not hear any complaining from the kids, but these are Calif kids so they are getting use to it. …

You’re seeing the same thing down there that I’m seeing up here. Much of the whining and complaining took place last year, and now the kids are much more back to playing baseball and not worrying about it. The rest of the country is where we were last year at this time, and if you saw and heard what I did, it was like a bunch of pathetic babies complaining about something they had absolutely no control over.

We’ve pretty much quit the whining, and there’s no doubt in my mind that next year at this time, the rest of the country will have quit the whining too.

Here in Missouri I don't see that BBCOR has had that huge of an impact. Home runs may be down, but they are still getting hit. And I see doubles every game I watch with the occasional triple thrown in (and boy are they fun to watch).

Yes, the kids who don't have good swings struggle. But hasn't that always been the case? Yeah, the BESR bats may have allowed them more cheap hits in the past than they are getting now, but there was always a difference between the top 9 players and the bottom 9. BBCOR makes that difference slightly more pronounced, but that's about it.

A lot of the BBCOR angst has been standard baseball hyperbole, where what people say the see happening, and what really happens, are often two very different things.

We’ve all done it to some degree. We’ll see a pitcher pound sand up our 14YO team’s backsides, and the only way to really explain it, is to say the kid was throwing 90, when what was really happening was that he was throwing 78, but getting the guys to hit the ball right at somebody. Its how we protect our kids and their teams. From being thought of as “normal” or “average”.

When you read some of the tales of BESR bats, you’d think there was an average of 10 HRs a game, with 6 of them coming from the worst hitters in the lineups by just sticking out their bat. But that never happened, and neither did anything approaching it.

There are almost sound reasons to explain the things that go on on a ball field. Things like our HS team being 14-4 against some pretty decent competition with a team BA of less than .300. Here’s one teeny weeny reason. We’re 47 for 57 in stolen bases, while our opponents are 12 for 22. Doesn’t sound like much, but it’s a huge advantage in just 18 games.

kids will figure it out..they'll need a "running start" with their hands..either they'll figure it out or end up playing s****r.

We now, and after a decade or two, be able to tell the >16 y/o amateur HR hitters from the P&J guys in the parking lot.

The mashers are driving Cadillacs.
The P&J are driving Fords.

Why are HS players having a hard time hitting with BBCOR bat? Simply because the ball does not come off the bat as fast as it did with BESR bats; with or without the “Magic BBCOR” swing.
Offensive stats are down across the board.
Infielders are getting to more ground balls, outfielders are able to run down more fly balls, and because the balls are not travelling as far, the outfielders do not play as deep and can take away more hits.
Homeruns are way down. The Sac-Joaquin section (CA) leader had 9, two more than the next hitter’s total.
All this talk about the numbers being down because the kids don’t know how to hit is just a crock. Numbers are down because the bats have been deadened.
I have yet to hear one D1 college head coach being interviewed that like the new bats. At the beginning of the season TCU’s head coach said he thought that the “pre-BBCOR” bats were perfect for the college player. Just this last weekend, Clemson’s head coach said he doubts that they will change the bats again so he would like to see colleges go to the MLB baseball because it’s livelier. Last Saturday (6/2/12) I was watching Manhattan playing Coastal Carolina (ESPNU or ESPN2) and they even showed a graphic of the ballpark showing arrows with the old bats the ball going 400’ and new bats going 375’ to the warning track. The announcers also talked about some schools are worried because with the decrease of offense there is a decrease in attendance. A lot of people liked the high output offense that made college baseball unique. Non-baseball fanatics get bored watching players bunt over runners. Kind of like watching golf on TV, avid golfers like it but to non-fanatics it’s like watching paint dry.
I’m also worried that more HS players will be tempted to use the juice to keep their numbers up.
Something else that bothers me a bit; twice on MLB games I have heard MLB scouts talk about metal bats and had no clue about BBCOR. That should be a concern.

You’re right Ninthmanout, BBCOR was stupid idea. There’s absolutely no excuse for not allowing the equipment to determine success, just as in golf, tennis, and other sports. God forbid they do something as stupid as moving in the fences a tad like they do in the ML parks when offense suffers. Naw, let’s go back to when players could cheat both on the letter and the spirit of the rules, because we all know no coach or player would ever cheat. Yup. Let’s not only bring back composites, let’s get back Titanium too! Heck, every player can easily afford $400-500 for a bat.