Why don't we do more to protect our pitchers?

I'm for the bbcor age moving down to at least 12, if not more.  I just cringe when my 14 yo plays in tournaments and the super teams are using the magic orange bats.

 

There are the gel caps, but my son won't consider them.  Can't even get him to wear a cup, hard of soft.  Not sure how to take the line drive injury out of the game.

P.S. Learning of my new thread my son said "you want to make pitchers into wussies now a days.  If you don't want to get hit get the glove in front of your face".  The invincibility of youth...  this is why we have to protect them.

Exactly.  

Could never get my son to wear a cup either.  

A pitcher at my sons college got hit in the head last weekend.  Never knocked out, was aware what was going on.  Ended up with an over night in the hospital with a concussion.  It is the worst fear.  

I asked my son about it.  If it freaked him out.  He said not really.  Its accepted risk as he put it.  Like riding a dirt bike or play football or driving a car.  

I would like to see wood be used through out however.  There will be kids that can't handle it but I can't help but think we would end up with better hitters if kids came up swinging wood.  

Not only better hitters but may save a few careers!  Some kids actually swing those drop 10's right up til high school.  They sla p the ball to the oppo side for their base hit.  Then they get bbcor in their hands and couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.  They get cut.  Or if they are at a no cut school they get frustrated and quit.  We realky aren't doing ANYBODY including the hitters a favor by letting them swing these hot bats.

I think this is really the key.  In spite of the horrific nature of the injuries that do happen, they're really not occurring often enough to represent a real risk to any given individual. I admittedly don't have any numbers to back that up, though.

 

I do agree that just going to BBCOR or wood at every level would be a simple "fix" that wouldn't really cost much, if anything, and would mitigate a substantial portion of whatever risk there actually is. I'm actually a little surprised BBCOR hasn't already filtered down in higher drop bats via LL or USSSA or whoever requiring it.

 Can't even get him to wear a cup, hard of soft. 

 

He will once he gets hit in that area.

 

As the father of a college pitcher, I agree that youth baseball needs to get rid of those fake bats. My opinion is that everyone should use wood.

 

As far as protection, most players would choose to not wear a mask or a gel cap. Not sure what the answer is. Maybe if all big leaguers started wearing them.

 

As much as we love to watch our kids play, the fear of injury never goes away. Most pitchers will tell you that they think about it, but don't worry about it. You can't, or you would never be able to step foot on the mound.

 

By the way, my kid has worn a cup since he was 11, never wants to fell that pain again.

I agree....watching a bigger kid go 3 for 4 with two doubles while never making solid contact is a pet peeve.  

I agree with jacjacatk that BBCOR or wood hasn't spread further.  

Some of it is cost however though.  A kid going throw a couple of bats per league year can add up.  

They make these composite wood bats so well they are hard to break.  Graphite (or whatever it is) handle and a.graphite rod through the whole thing with a wood barrel.  The other thing people don't always think about is it is not just the livelier alloy but the immense difference in bat speed generated.  So its a double bubble.  With wood/bbcor maybe the ball comes back at 80mph instead of 100.  Or for 12u maybe 60 instead.of 80 etc.  But then johnny's 205 ft home run goes away and mommy and daddy don't like that.  In fact the 205 ft. Home run then might actually mean something!

Pick Off, when you visit SSU next Spring, I will tell you true stories about the "metal" cup.

 

* Years ago I was playing in Stan Musial National Tournament and our SS field a extremely hard hit "one bouncer" with his metal cup. You could hear the impact throughout the stadium. When the inning ended he calmly walked into the dugout

took out the metal cup grabbed a wood bat and knock out the dent.

 

We could have sold cups to the young shocked "cupless" pitchers for $100 each.

 

True Story;

 

Bob

He's never been hit there that I know of.  I'll give him a good old fashioned "cup check" b/w innings.

       
       
No joke. I was asked what I though the biggest change would be with my son going from 14 to 15U. I said I don't care. All I know is my son doesn't have to stand 60' away from a 6'3" 200 lb kid with a drop 5 mako anymore, so I'm happy no matter what.

 In spring of 2018, youth bat performance will be reduced by a new bat regulation.

 

http://web.usabaseball.com/art...content_id=141742668

 

 

       
       
Small step in the right direction.  But still light bats get swung much faster.  And it is a cop out for them to say its not aout safety.

It's a step in the right direction but the rules need to be tailored for level. Majors could get rid of light bats. LL can't change the bat rule for 10% of the kids. Most of LL would have a problem if they couldn't swing lighter bats. Heck a lot of them have trouble swinging them lol.

No one wants to see any pitcher injured. But given the number of pitches thrown and the number of existing pitchers, the odds of getting drilled are very small. Before anyone says, "what if it's your kid?" it has been in an 18u game. He was knocked unconscious by a line drive. It was hit so hard it caromed off his head and over the dugout. i took him to the hospital. (love this joke) They examined his head and found nothing.

No cup story:

 

One of my son's travel teammates didn't wear a cup. He squared to bunt. He got drilled in the nuts. To add insult to injury it was a strike. In his effort to get out of the way he pushed the bat forward. Males being who they are were busting up laughing on the bench. One kid yelled out, "Don't rub it!"

       
       
I don't know I think if you pitch long enough you get hit.  Plain and simple.  My son got drilled at 11.  Luckily not in the head and not since.  Obviously getting drilled at age 18 could be more problematic.  So hopefully his once is an only.  Agreed its still rare.  But its a lot less rare the more and longer you pitch.   And of course the consequences of that one time could be devastating.   I just try to emphasize to him don't be a hero, get out the way!  I think if your first reaction is to move your head rather than try and catch the ball you have a good chance.  Give him the base hit up the middle and stay healthy.  But there is that occasion I suppose when you don't even have time for that.  When your son got hit was he trying to catch it or was there just absolutely no way to elude it?

That's why you teach young pitchers to land in a defensive position but some will argue it takes away from their velo.  

 

As far as those stories of not wearing a cup, this is totally unacceptable for any parent or coach to allow this to happen.

Thankfully, my 2017 son is a primary catcher and has not pitched an inning since 2011 in LL (and got lit up by the better hitters). But thankfully, he wears his cup (Nutty Buddy so fit and protection is superior) so much that it doesn't feel like baseball if he's not wearing it.

 

I think moving to BBCOR or composite wood bats to 12u would make the game fundamentally safer at the cost of the "entertainment". Good baseball will remain good baseball.

My son has lightning reflexes. He had no chance. The ball was crushed back at him. I pitched from LL through soph year of college. I never got drilled hard enough to have to leave the mound.

2020dad,

 

Why do you believe it’s a “cop out” when asked: Is safety the reason for the change? to say: No. Youth baseball continues to be one of the safest of all sports for youth participants.

 

Is it because you believe pitchers at all levels are dropping like flies? Well, they aren’t. Is it that you believe your child is in grave danger when he pitches? Well, you’re the parent. Tell him he isn’t allowed to pitch any longer. I don’t mean to be harsh, but the “safety” of pitchers has never been the primary reason for any such change. Is there some element of safety in such decisions? Of course there is, but safety alone just doesn’t have the impact you think because the danger is so miniscule.

 

You also said: And for gods sake why cant we use wood or bbcor at ALL ages?  the answer is, you can! Everyone can! Again, you’re the parent, quit buying him anything but wood and forbid him to borrow a bat under penalty of not being allowed to play.

 

The point I’m trying to make here is that the marketplace determines much of what goes on in baseball. Believe me, if the demand for “hot” bats dried up, bats that were much “cooler” would soon be lining the shelves! Right now the powers to be in the game are saying they don’t like the game being played at levels below HS, and they’re reacting by making a wholesale change. Don’t look the gift horse in the mouth!

 

 

 

The most likely reason youth baseball is drastically reducing bat performance is feedback from their insurers. In the "marketplace", insurers are a major player.

And the lawyers.

 

Bob

This is something I bought to protect myself. Haven't used it yet in a game, 

 

https://www.sstbaseball.com/

 

 

 

 

 

       
       
Never really sure it is worth my time to engage with you.  Probably not but I am bored and between football games so what the heck.  The real question is how did you actually even get a like for this one?  No matter.  I never claimed pitchers were in 'grave danger' and your statement that I can have my son just use bbcor, perhaps you were snoozing but he already does.  Now that doesn't help him much when he is on the mound does it?  Normally I just laugh you off but I really don't like your tone.  And you are trying to be harsh.  Its what you do.  Now you can come back and slam me and cut and paste something from one of my posts and I will have better restraint next time and ignore it.  Back to football.

Since it was my reply on the other topic that spawned this thread I will weight in to say I can't agree with you 2020dad.  Sports are sports and there is a level of danger and while I don't wish it to happen to any kid I understand when it does. I understand when the hockey player gets a clavicle broken from being shoved into the boards, and I understand when the football player breaks his leg from a hard take down, I understand when a batter takes a missed curve ball to the face, and I understand when the pitcher takes a hard one right back at him. 

 

To those of you on this thread commiserating with 2020dad about pitcher safety and then in the next line explain how your kid doesn't wear a cup...that is just sad. 

 

As for the use of BBCOR bats at the youth level, I can agree that 12u should be the year to institute the use of BBCOR, but prior to that, no.  The reason for the drop 10 bats made of alloys is to be able to simulate real baseball, much like the smaller fields help simulate real baseball.  If you had everyone using a BBCOR bat only rarely will a kid hit it out of the infield, that's not baseball, and the kids would never learn how to play "real" baseball.

 

Did I misunderstand 2020dad?  You want the field to be safer for your son and all players, but at the cost of removing what makes baseball, well, baseball?  If you want to argue youth pitchers being over used or used poorly I am right there with you, but you want to argue that the 12u 6'3 pitcher throwing 80+ heat isn't ready for a ball to come back at his head so he shouldn't play up...when would someone be ready for a ball like that to come back at their head?  15u?  17u?  I would argue that no one is ever ready for that, it is however, part of the game.

I made my son wear a cup when he was younger, started playing baseball at 13.  By the time he was in high school he wouldn't.  Always had the option.  They did not enforce those rules in high school ball.  I am sure the umpire did not want to go around making sure all the boys had cups on.  He would wear one if he was playing first base however and take it out to hit.  Playing OF, no.  Hitting, no.  Pitching, no.  Playing first, yes.  

I did try to convince him the real risk while hitting was a foul ball catching him there, worth the risk to him to be comfortable.  

Ok, his choice.  If he ever does get hit his tune may change.  

How is the fit? 

Comfortable or is it noticeable?  Do you have to keep adjusting it to keep it in place?

Now given this particular 12 year old PG referenced I am sure He could have played up.  But maybe not to the level where he would be 'challenged'.  His safety is also important.

This is my quote from the other thread.  I agreed this particular kid could play up.  But to be 'challenged' he would have had to play minimum 15u and probably more like 16u.  And yes I would be concerned for HIS safety at that point.  Not that he would be in 'grave danger' at every moment but there would be more risk than a 12 year old should have to take on.  As for wood/bbcor keep in mind those of us with some years on us swung wood.  And plenty guys hit the ball out of the infield.  Difference is with the big money now involved in youth sports we want every little whipper snapper to be able to hit the ball out of the infield.  In our day if you stunk you stunk and that was the end of it.  That is unacceptable now.  Wood, that is real baseball.  As for other sports...  football in particular.  As other threads have pointed out football participation is dwindling and fast.  In the more well to do areas it is almost becoming extinct.  Many have decided that risk is way too much.  We are talking there about a sport which simply can not be made safe.  Baseball is different.  While it may not be 'cool' we could mandate (long overdue) masks on batting helmets and again with today's technology we could no doubt come up with something lightweight to protect pitchers.  Explain to me why we would not do that?  If we can take these situations out of the game completely why would we not?  To be cool?  Macho?  Thus the thread - why are we not doing more to protect our pitchers?

My oldest had Josias Manzanillo as a pitching coach, so he never had an issue wearing a cup on the mound.

 

As for other protective gear...  His doctor insisted he wear a mask for at least a few months post surgery to repair a badly broken nose.  My son pitched one inning with a softball infielder's mask on, and chucked it in his bag never to be used again.  I suppose given enough time he might have gotten used to it - but he really just found it too distracting.

Why are we not doing more?  Because the risks are so minuscule that it is not worth the effort to do it.  Cost-benefit.  Think about the millions of pitches thrown every year and the extremely small percentage of times a pitcher is hit in the head.  And my son is a pitcher.  He has been hit a few times over the years.  A couple times in the leg and in the arm that I can remember.  He has been pitching since he was 8 and is now a senior in college.  That's a lot of innings and a lot of pitches to only have been hit 3 or 4 times.  Now extrapolate those numbers times the entire pitching population and the numbers just don't justify it.

 

And yes, I know when it does happen it is devastating.  But it is just not worth the cost to regulate this for a few isolated incidents.  I don't have a problem with tournament organizations going to all wood or all BBCOR.  But I think that is all driven by consumer demand - as Stats suggested.  If one organization switches to all wood bats, there are other organizations who will provide the option of swinging any kind of bat you want.  And more than likely, players and families will drift to those organizations, for whatever reason...  

 

Most of you know my adversarial relationship with Stats, but yes, I'm the one who liked his response earlier.  Not because of the arguments specifically made against 2020, but because of his argument about the regulations being consumer driven.  If more parents were concerned about the safety of their players or about the safety of opponents, the market would respond.  They haven't and I honestly don't think they will.  

 

Generally speaking, I am against more regulation and for more market driven decisions.  I just think the risks involved are too small for making wholesale rules changes in the game.

 

But, that's just my opinion...

The reaction, or I should say over reaction, to football injuries is nearly comical.  

This is just as much trend as anything else.  You're right, football is a game with inherent risk and can only be made so safe.  

In terms of pitchers I think the biggest push back would be from the pitchers themselves. Anything that changes how they feel on the mound....weight, vision, balance (like those giant hats MLB ran out for about a second) is going to get tossed.  The kevlar inserts posted above look interesting....a good mouthpiece....what else do you suggest?

How are you keeping them secure in the hat? I bought both sizes they offer and cannot get either to fit my 12U's hat, let alone wonder how to keep them in the hat.

I don't think you can draw a direct comparison with football injuries (especially head injuries) or with the recent soccer rules change.  Below a certain age, I'm not convinced players are capable of fully protecting themselves in either of those sports with regards to concussions, and I think you probably do need to regulate head contact.

 

I'm not actually convinced pitchers are fully capable of protecting themselves at younger ages (or at least capable enough to mirror the ability of older players), which is why I think regulating the bats is probably a good idea in general.  

 

Overall, I think the risks in baseball from a batted ball are low enough that it isn't really the same as the football issues, though I could be convinced either way if someone wants to provide some data on the subject.

Originally Posted by 2020dad:

Never really sure it is worth my time to engage with you.  Probably not but I am bored and between football games so what the heck.  The real question is how did you actually even get a like for this one?  No matter.  I never claimed pitchers were in 'grave danger' and your statement that I can have my son just use bbcor, perhaps you were snoozing but he already does.  Now that doesn't help him much when he is on the mound does it?  Normally I just laugh you off but I really don't like your tone.  And you are trying to be harsh.  Its what you do.  Now you can come back and slam me and cut and paste something from one of my posts and I will have better restraint next time and ignore it.  Back to football.

 

Ya know, it’s fine when you insult someone face to face, but when you insult someone you don’t even know, it’s pretty sad.

 

What does I was scared to death also after witnessing that mean? Sure sounds like you thought someone was in grave danger. Was it the left fielder?

 

It’s good that your boy uses BBCOR. You’ve saved someone else’s son. Now all you have to do is address when he’s on the mound. Eazy peezy. Don’t let him pitch until everyone uses wood or BBCOR.

 

I’m sorry you don’t like my tone, but I don’t like yours. All I was doing was saying all the whining and hand wringing in the world won’t change anything, but $$$$$ at the register will.

It has nothing to be with cool or macho it has to do with the fact that sports have inherent injury problems.  I don't have the numbers but I would guess it is 1000 times more likely to be injured sliding into a base than a pitcher gets hit with a return ball...where is their leg padding, demand that spikes be outlawed (for the safety of the fielder), why don't we make the basses bigger so there is somewhere for the infielders to stand so they won't get hit?  Maybe all fielders should be wearing shin guards because those hard hit balls COULD break legs....it is a slippery slope that could lead to making the ball field another grand stand for the politically correct crowd. 

 

Youth sports is changing, just look at them outlawing hitting the soccer ball with your head in the youth leagues, but is the change for the better, or are we wrapping our players up in a bubble and telling them ANY risk is unacceptable?   If you want your son to wear a chest protector, or a cup, or a face guard then go for it, this ends up being a "to each their own" kind of thing. 

Stats caught one!

 

 

I have told this story before here.  It was a real eye opener.

 

We actually had a 12u league we ran several years ago.  Anyone wanting to,play could play in this league.  So in the league we had highly advanced players and players that were just starting out.

 

One day I was watching a game (played on a softball field) with the most advanced and best player in the league.  In fact, he later became a 2nd round pick and played in the Major Leagues (Ryan Sweeney).  

 

Ayway, Ryan was hitting and hit an rocket past the 1st baseman.  The small Chubby, kid playing 1B didn't even react. The line shot almost clipped his ear and could have just as easily hit him between the eyes. Scary moment for sure, one that me and that 1B will never forget.  BTW, we were using wood bats that were specially made for us and this age group.  

 

Not sure exactly what this means, other than the talent level was not equal.  We do need to think about safety, especially when it comes to the youngest ages.  

Yes, but at what cost to the game?  As CaCO3Girl has stated, there are inherent risks in any sport that is played.  Soccer was always thought of as the "safe" sport for kids to play.  Now, they are changing one of the fundamental concepts of the game for safety.  I'm not aware of a lot of head injuries for young soccer players, but then I'm not really involved in the game.  I know that kids will get to a point in their soccer careers and not know how to play a significant part of the game.  I don't know at what age this "no header" rule goes away, but when it does, kids will struggle with how to play the game correctly.  

 

Football is a whole other issue.  I personally think the world has gone overboard with the "safety" rules put in place for this sport and it is changing the game.  Watching a good bit of football, I'm just shocked that not only can you not hit the QB high anymore, you can't hit him low either.  Where does it stop?  At what point do you make the game so safe that it's not the same game anymore?

 

There are products out there that will protect a player.  The head shield, the chest/heart protector, the cup, the batting helmet, shin guards, elbow guards, wood/BBCOR bats...  If you want your player to wear or use any of these things while he's playing, make him wear/use it.  I just don't think it needs to be regulated.