Why have we not heard from Clemens?

Sometimes it is hard to enter these discussions without everyone believing you are sticking up for someone or the wrong thing. Well, I’m not sticking up for anyone, but I really do care about facts. It also becomes very clear that there is some actual enjoyment, beyond cleaning up the game, involved for some.

Deldad mentioned he has met Clemens and found him to be very humble. I know Roger Clemens and I like him. Neither Deldad or myself has ever seen Roger Clemens take steroids. We have seen the other side. Those are facts to me.

Infielddad, that was a real good post IMO

Just because I like Roger Clemens as a person, doesn’t mean I think he is innocent or that I would agree with anything he did. There are some people who post here who I would still like even if I found out they took steroids.

If he is guilty, maybe it will help get what I really want the most… To end the illegal use of PEDs for future players and young people. The records, the hall-of-fame, someone cheating, etc. means very little to me compared to the real issue of putting an end to the use of illegal PEDs.

HeyBatter you mentioned…

quote:

Like with bonds, they never deny anything, they just deny there is proof. Well to me, these ridiculous stats, these grotesque deformed cartoonish physiques and many other subtle factors are very much proof.

Unlike Bonds and Sosa… Perhaps Deldad will add his opinion, but I guess I never noticed any deformed cartoonish features with Roger Clemens. So guess you can use that as proof but I can’t in his case. In 1984 he was 6’4/210 as a rookie. In 2006 (23 years later) he was listed at 6’4/220. Personally he looks a bit heavier than that to me, but that is what he is listed. I don’t truthfully know, but I’ll bet his shoe size and scull size didn’t change much either.

Also, I thought Clemens has denied using PEDs after the report was released.

Not really sticking up for Clemens or anyone else here, or saying he is innocent, just pointing out how sometimes these things can take on a life of their own as everyone adds a little bit more to the story.

.
.

quote:

...There are some people who post here who I would still like even if I found out they took steroids....

Gosh PG, thanks...



I was worried!

44
.

I still like you, but now I'm the one who is worried about you. Your forearms are so tiny!

And your scull has actually shrunk!

My Grandmother had triceps like those.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
To end the illegal use of PEDs for future players and young people. The records, the hall-of-fame, someone cheating, etc. means very little to me compared to the real issue of putting an end to the use of illegal PEDs.

That really is the only thing that matters in all of this. Stopping the kids from growing up in the footsteps of these immoral and character-less bums.

Caring - for even one moment - about the guys that made millions by cheating - or their records - or the Hall of Fame stuff - seems to be a useless exercise to me.

Understand this - they couldnt give a rats *** about your kid - or about the influence they have on any kid.

They cared about money - and their own ego - and they did whatever it took to ensure that both of those needs were fulfilled. Period.

Why would anyone in their right mind care about these lowlifes?

I just want to see the game rid of cheaters. I want to see mlb take a serious approach to stopping this problem. That is my concern. #1 I dont want to see a kid that does it the right way suffer because he has character and his competition does not. #2 I want to know that what I am watching is real and not the result of a drug. I want to know that the guy Im watching earned the right to be there with God given ability and a tremendous work ethic. #3 I dont want kids or young men to feel the pressure to cheat and be almost forced into doing something that they know is wrong. Given the proper circumstances everyone is subject to do almost anything. Why should anyone be put in that kind of situation when they really dont have to be. #4 The focus should be on the game itself. How wonderfull it is. Not on all this negative stuff we have now. Put the rules in place and then enforce them. So we can get back to baseball and not drugs being the focus.

Its,

While I agree that the most important thing is to end the steroid era. Sorry, but I must disagree with your discriptions. There are lots of people who are much bigger low lifers than some of these guys.

I think it was 2005 when the Cardinals beat Clemens and the Astros in the final NL playoff game. The very next day he was at our WWBA Fall Championship. His entire family was there. While spending four days, he was seen talking to kids, throwing batting practice to kids, being polite to everyone who wanted his time. At one point he was setting in the dugout (as you know they are wide open) people were actually walking into the dugout during the game to get his autograph. He never complained, or acted like a big shot, or turned anyone away. On our own we roped off the dugout area.
After the tournament was over he stayed and talked to kids, telling them to work hard and concentrate on school. It was very obvious that this man loved kids! At least for those four days he was a true superstar role model. I’d have a very hard time calling him a low life.

I remember perusing the June draft realizing that baseball keeps it in the family. I wonder how those players that have had careers in the MLB and are nudging their sons up through the ranks are feeling about this Mitchell Report.
Those that have used and have family in the business...what discussion is going on in those households?

I echo PG's sentiments about Clemens. He was not freakish in his appearance, he is just a mountain of a man. But nothing struck me as out of sorts. I liked the way he dealt with my kids. I like to tell the story so here I go. My oldest was recieving an award and a member of the banquet committee took him over to meet Clemens. My younger son tagged along, he was 10 at the time and it was his birthday. Clemens was speaking to Tim Kurjen and Peter Gammons as my boys approached. As the kids waited for their turn to meet him, he noticed them standing there took a step to the side and put his hand on my younger sons shoulder. He continued his conversation and just squeezed and held my youngest shoulder. My older son was introduced and shook his hand they spoke. He ask my older son a number of questions all the while still holding the younger ones shoulder. After that he bent over looked my younger son in the eye and said, "do you know who I am?" My younger son almost speechless just said, "the Rocket." Clemens laughed and proceeded to ask him a number of questions. He then looked at my 10yo and excused himself so he could go talk to the owner of the Marlins and Jack McKeon. I was impressed.

Does that mean he didn't use PED's, I have no idea. I would just like to hear from him one way or the other.

I want one of these guys to step up and help clean it up. I thought McGwire would be the one to do it, but he has failed. There is a chance for someone to be a hero. Somebody to stand up and say, yes I made some mistakes, and here is why. Somebody to look the other players in the eye and ask them to stop. Somebody to lead the crusade from the players side. Right now the only one stepping forward is Canseco. His closet has to many skeletons to be an effective leader.

Coach May is right on with his desire to rid the game of cheaters, I echo his sentiments. It would be nice if the Player's Association would step forward but I don't think Donald Fehr has a soul. Nature abhors a vacuum and right now there is a lack of leadership on the player's side. I would like to see it filled by someone of Clemen's stature.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Or perhaps his attorney(S) is gathering facts----Pettitte has said nothing either---not has Tejada

Oops..you whiffed on that one. A few of the players named on the list have come out and admitted they were guilty, Pettite included.

I don't buy the explanation that they only did it once or twice..it's comparable to the famous comments like "I did not have *** with that woman, Monica Lewinski", or "I didn't smoke marijuana because I didn't inhale".

That said, I do give those guys credit for at least confirming that the info released is correct.

I don't agree with what some are saying, calling these guys "scumbags", or "lowlifes"..they were just guys trying to get an edge. And they had reasons..16 million reasons, or 18 million reasons, or however many millions of dollars worth of reasons they signed for.

Hopefully some of them will be embarrassed enough by the stigma of being named that they start telling what they know on the players that are also guilty, but weren't caught.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think it was 2005 when the Cardinals beat Clemens and the Astros in the final NL playoff game. The very next day he was at our WWBA Fall Championship. His entire family was there. While spending four days, he was seen talking to kids, throwing batting practice to kids, being polite to everyone who wanted his time. At one point he was setting in the dugout (as you know they are wide open) people were actually walking into the dugout during the game to get his autograph. He never complained, or acted like a big shot, or turned anyone away. On our own we roped off the dugout area.
After the tournament was over he stayed and talked to kids, telling them to work hard and concentrate on school. It was very obvious that this man loved kids! At least for those four days he was a true superstar role model. I’d have a very hard time calling him a low life.

The above scenerio you described, and the one by Deldad,is why Clemens, more than any other player on the list needs to come out with the truth. If he loves kids, and they look up to him,and he did do as stated in the report, he needs to come out with a statment.

Those that we tend to place on pedestals, have more responsibility to help turn the ship. Exactly the reason why he was named in the report. It's players like him who can help move us out of the steroid era for good.

Well we were at another party last night and I met a former bat boy for a MLB team (during spring training). You are talking only 10-11 years ago. He also confirmed the high use of amphetemines (different team also in the coffee) among players before a game. The whispers he heard about who was doing what, being told what goes on in the cluhouse stays in the clubhouse. He was not surprised at all who was on the list and also felt that many names most likely omitted.

My husband is a bb card collector. Out of curiosity yesterday we dug out the many rookie cards he has collected. He has rookie cards of players their first year after the draft, the same player their first rookie year in MLB, to the present. There are some players who look the same today (except for aging) as they did their first card, there are some very obvious that their bodies had taken on a new life somewhere in their career. BTW, there definetly is a difference between those that may have taken for injury (AP) and those that may have done it to enhance their overall performance (BB). I thought the comparisons were interesting.

PG,

I will agree to disagree - at least on some of the points made.

Of course there are different degrees of bad behavior. These guys didnt commit heinous crimes - and they dont deserve to be in jail IMO. (I dont think that would be fair - unless of course you lie to a Federal Grand Jury).

But you cant be good one day - and a cheater the next day - and expect me to applaud your character. It is different - I am sure - for everyone - but for me - it just doesnt work that way.

I know many people that give generously to charitable organizations - they give their time and their hard earned money to help those less fortunate. Many of these same people are some of the nastiest - most vile people I have ever met - and will think nothing of destroying another person to get an edge. To make more money.

Are they good?

Not in my book.

Its,

I always enjoy reading your position on things. I actually like and respect your no nonsense approach to things.

We are all against the use of PEDS. I actually think I can separate the people who used PEDS when it comes to character. All people who have used PEDS are not exactly alike when it comes to character. Same for all people who donate money to worthwhile causes.

I really am more concerned with any health ramifications and danger to younger players than I am with whether someone cheated. Hell, we live in a society full of cheating. Ask the IRS? Has anyone here never told a lie to protect yourself? Has anyone ever drank alcohol, smoked marijuana, etc. when it was illegal to do so? Anyone here own a radar detector, are we all so perfect that we’ve never done anything illegal, dishonest, or out of character?

People make mistakes, I even remember making one back in the 50s. I lied to my parents about where I was because I snuck over to see a girl. No way could I admit to that!!!! Wait a minute… I admit… That is a lie!

We all belong to a cheating society, most of us have cheated to some degree in our life. Of course there are different degrees of cheating, some cause people to spend time behind bars.

So what degree of cheating is using PEDS? I just know it’s bad for the game and bad for the players. More importantly it’s bad for the future players. I can actually understand why people do it! It’s one of those things we must stop others from doing because it won’t stop on its own. I’m just not caught up in the cheating being the main reason to clean things up.

BTW, speaking of character and PEDS, didn’t the governor of one of our greatest states cheat by using PEDS to win Body Building Contests, that led to him becoming a multimillionaire in the entertainment field before being elected to run the equivalent of a small country that he wasn’t even born in?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

I really am more concerned with any health ramifications and danger to younger players than I am with whether someone cheated.

PG - I just hope that this very important point you are making doesnt get lost amidst all of the legal and P/R maneuvering that we are about to be deluged with in the coming months.

Well said deldad. It is good to have some balance in these discussions and redemption is a beautiful and worthwhile thing to hope for during the holidays. For me there are two distinct and separate paths; personal examples (ie maybe like Petite's- not sure about that one yet) that people could use for their kids as a teaching tool and thorough institutional controls, ie. olympic style year around blood testing with stiff penalties.

Personally, I'm not ready to get on board with the Dr. Phil- style forgiveness stuff until the proper controls are in place. Jim Parque was quoted the other day after being outed by saying something like, "OK, people cheat and will always cheat. Let's move forward." Very Clinton like. He may have had a needle in his but while being quoted.
My point is one without the other rings hollow to me.

PG,
I agree with some of your points, the biggest reason for this whole thing should be because of the health issues involved and I know as a parent, my children's health is more important than any bank account.

Not sure what having a radar detector has to do with this. It's not illegal to own one. If someone decides to cheat on their income tax, the only one hurt by that is the person doing it. So I think you can't use those types of situations for this situation.

We do live in a society of cheaters, and there are different degrees of cheating. Our society and it's laws allow for that.

I think the issue here is so intense for many because we love the game so much. Baseball is a game rich in tradition and records history of the game by way of statistics and records. Once people begin to manipulate the system to break records, IMO, people get hurt. Mays may have lost his record to someone who did something he was not supposed to do along with other players as well whose records have been broken, all because someone maybe decided to cheat.

That's my big concern as far as cheating in baseball.

TPM,

I do agree with your first sentence.

Is it legal and dangerous, in fact deadly at times to others, to break the law by Speeding? What reason does a person need to have a radar detector if they are not going to break the law? Cheating on taxes is illegal, but how many of the guilty get hurt be doing so? And guess you could say it is cheating the United States! Probably many better examples of cheating could be used, but it was the best I could come up with at the time.

The actual records or cheating are not even a consideration for me. I don't feel the records are even important compared to other things. Besides, how many records might have been broken by corked bats, and spit balls… both technically defined as cheating. I do understand that these records do mean a lot to others, though.

Who are the 2 biggest names out there?

Clemens and Bond's.

Those 2 should have a press conferance, Along with MLB Management/Owner's, Donald Fehr and the MLBPA Union.
Coaches, Trainer's , and any other Players that would like to appear.

And Apologize for there behavior, And the Stain they put on the game.
There all responsible.

Ask for Mercy.

Promise it won't be tolorated anymore.

And Let's Move On.

EH

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
TPM,

I do agree with your first sentence.

Is it legal and dangerous, in fact deadly at times to others, to break the law by Speeding? What reason does a person need to have a radar detector if they are not going to break the law? Cheating on taxes is illegal, but how many of the guilty get hurt be doing so? And guess you could say it is cheating the United States! Probably many better examples of cheating could be used, but it was the best I could come up with at the time.

The actual records or cheating are not even a consideration for me. I don't feel the records are even important compared to other things. Besides, how many records might have been broken by corked bats, and spit balls… both technically defined as cheating. I do understand that these records do mean a lot to others, though.

PG, what does this really have to do with it? How can you even compare cheating by having a radar detector to cheating by taking a drug that could possibly kill you someday?

Sorry, this makes no sense to me, and frankly, I really expect more from you than comparing what has happened in baseball to speeding or cheating on one's income tax.

quote:

PG, what does this really have to do with it? How can you even compare cheating by having a radar detector to cheating by taking a drug that could possibly kill you someday?

Sorry, this makes no sense to me, and frankly, I really expect more from you than comparing what has happened in baseball to speeding or cheating on one's income tax.

TPM,

Your going to really enjoy this post!

While there are many more important things to talk about, let’s start here… I did say it was probably not the best example but all I could come up with at the time. But seeing you insist on making it an issue...

First of all is what I said regarding radar detectors and the IRS that unclear? It is one of hundreds of examples how this society CHEATS! You have a speedometer, so what is the reason for a radar detector. BTW, I own a radar detector! I’m not comparing it equally to the steroid problem at all, I’m trying to make some sense out of all this. It’s OK if you don’t understand.

I’ve also said (OVER AND OVER) we must end this problem for the sake of all those who follow. Personally I don’t care about the records or even the cheating. Cheating has gone on in baseball for over 100 years. Willie Mays is still my all time favorite player no matter where he ranks in the record books or if someone cheated to break one of his records.

I absolutely abhor anyone talking to me the way you are in your last paragraph. I have written volumes here on exactly how important I think the steroid problem is and why I feel it’s important to clean up the game. Why do you pick up on the “radar detector” and “IRS” stuff and say something so big shot like as I EXPECTED MORE FROM YOU. I really could care the least what you expect out of me. Who the hell are YOU? I EXPECT MUCH MORE OUT OF YOU! See how that works?

I give my honest opinions… No one needs to agree or disagree… But don’t give people that holier than thou stuff like YOU expect more out of them. This is a message board, I try hard to abide by the rules, not ever say anything bad about anyone, and help as much as possible, I don’t work for you or answer to you. Though I have noticed that you seem to know just about everything.

Finally, this issue of steroids is something I am very very close to. Unfortunately I do not have all the answers. Just in the past two days I must have written half a book on this site on my thoughts regarding this subject. I expect people to disagree with some of what I say, I never expect to be scolded, have my words twisted around to say something altogether different than my CONSISTENT message on this topic and treated like a little boy!

This is really getting pretty old and things were very civil for awhile.

Well said PG!

PG,
I take this all very seriously, as a parent and as a fan of the game. I am not so much hung up on the cheating as I am on the fact that steroid use can kill you. Especially those young impressionable players who get their hands on the stuff WITHOUT someone explaining it to them, that's largely what this is all about. I don't think this is as simple as having a radar detector or not paying all of your taxes.

That's my stance and I know it is yours too, the health dangers of steroid use.

I bought my son a radar detector when he went off to college so he wouldn't speed. Not because I might have to pay another ticket, but speeding can kill, same as steroids has done to young players.

Young people are just that, young, they don't think about the consequences, same way a young player getting his hands on steroids, they have no clue. For them they see the fame and fortune that MIGHT come from it, I see in no way how that can be compared to radar detectors or cheating the IRS. For me, it's just not that simple of an analogy. Maybe you didn't make yourself clear. What appeared to me is that your post was, oh, it's ok, people cheat everyday so therefore, it's ok to cheat in the game of baseball.

TPM,

Bought him a radar detector "so he wouldn't speed"? I thought the idea of those things was to let you speed except when "Smokies" are around? I'm dense on this one. They're illegal here in Virginia anyway, so best put them away if you get this far north.

hokieone,

Let me take a stab at it...

Bought him a radar detector so he wouldn't speed when them smokies are around... cause isn't a speedometer used to make sure you don't speed

quote:

I bought my son a radar detector when he went off to college so he wouldn't speed. Not because I might have to pay another ticket, but speeding can kill, same as steroids has done to young players.

How different is this from, I took HGH or steroids to recover from an injury?

I understand your confusion, my son had a tendency to have a heavy foot on the pedal. My thinking was that after a while it would teach him to watch his speed, respect what speeding in a car can do, instead waitng for the blip, blip. It worked, still got a few tickets in teh process but actually obeys the speed limit now.

quote:

Originally posted by infidel_08:

quote:

I bought my son a radar detector when he went off to college so he wouldn't speed. Not because I might have to pay another ticket, but speeding can kill, same as steroids has done to young players.

How different is this from, I took HGH or steroids to recover from an injury?

I don't know you tell me. I still am tryng to figure out what radar detectors have to do with using steroids.

This is a little off topic but let me just say this. I spent 20 years in law enforcement. I never stopped a person with a radar detector that I did not write a speeding ticket to. I figured there was a reason they had that radar detector. It was not to keep them from speeding but to keep them from being caught for speeding. Therefore when I stopped them I wrote them. I rarely wrote a speeding ticket in other cases. Usually a warning ticket if they were honest and just admitted that they were speeding and were truly going to try and slow down. Radar detectors only detect radar when it is on. We never turned it on until we saw the car that we believed was speeding. By the time you hear the beep it is already too late. Radar detectors encourage those with them to speed and then slow down when they get a radar signal. They are dangerous in my opinion. I have never known any officer to give a break to anyone stopped that had one in the car. Just some advice from an old cop turned coach.

TPM,

Perhaps I didn’t write what I meant or maybe you didn’t read what I wrote clearly.

I did not compare radar detectors and taxes to taking steroids. I gave them as examples of how our society cheats! They (radar detectors) have NOTHING to do with steroids... They have to do with cheating. I know because I own one!

I’ve counted 26 posts I’ve written in the past two days in different topics but basically about this subject. I feel the most important reason for cleaning this mess up is for the health and welfare of future generations who will play the game.

You see I don’t expect future generations to all of a sudden quit cheating all together. So something has to be done to protect them from the dangers involved in all drugs, including illegal PEDs. I have never differed from that message for several years now. We can not count on the players to get it done because our society has a long history of cheating. It doesn’t bother me nearly as much if they are all using radar detectors or for that mater even corked bats. Records are fun, Wilt Chamberlain holds a bunch of them, I believe Michael Jordan was better. Records don’t mean much to me, the game is much more important than records. Wilt does hold one record that might be the most amazing of all if he didn’t cheat or lie about it.

BTW, even though I agree that radar detectors are not anywhere near as serious as using steroids. Without really knowing I’d bet that more lives are lost every year by people speeding than taking steroids. We’ve just grown to kind of accept speeding. Which could be called cheating to get somewhere faster than others do, who aren’t cheating. Maybe there is more of a correlation here than I first thought. I’ll admit, I am a speeder at times and even got a couple tickets for it. I would never use steroids. But does anyone understand what they're saying about HGH slowing down the aging process? Is that really true?

PS. Thank God for cruise control!

The radar detector thing is interesting - but I am still wondering about the topic - why havent we heard from Roger yet?

Whats the deal Roger?

Coach May,
I undersatnd your point, I shouldn't have brought it up obviously I am not making my point. They learn they don't work anyway, so you learn to obey the law and getting a ticket is NOT the worst thing that can happen.

If I have offended you PG I apologize, I just don't think that making analogies made the entire issue more acceptable. I now understand your viewpoint regarding radar detectors.

JMO.
Done.

I think we all agree 100% TPM, there is absolutely nothing acceptable about this issue!

Of course, I accept your apology. And you have my apology as well.

Now - all we need is Roger's apology and this topic is done.



Come on Roger - you can do it!

Here's hoping it comes soon!

quote:

Now - all we need is Roger's apology and this topic is done.

Its, It needs to be a Community Apology from all involved.
Then and only then can we move on.
JMO
EH

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Now - all we need is Roger's apology and this topic is done.



Come on Roger - you can do it!

My bet is Roger's "apology" will hardly go beyond "I don't recall." The amnesia defense has worked so well for others lately.

Trying to get back on the topic - what does Roger do now?

He - through his lawyers - vehemently denied that he took PED's. Just a couple of days ago.

Andy certainly didnt help his cause.

It will be interesting to see what kind of roided rabbit will be pulled from Roger's legal hat. IMO

See that's what I want to know.

quote:

Andy certainly didnt help his cause.

Is that because he got the HGH from the same guy who fingered him?

Like are we saying "what's good for the goose is good for the gander? here?

I think Pettitte has really put the squeeze on Roger. His admission to using HGH at the same time he was working out with Clemens and the same trainer puts ole Roger in quite a quandry. The longer he stays quiet the worse it is going to be for him. Sooner or later he has to address this issue. I dont believe he is going to be able to deny HGH. My guess is he is going to say he used HGH to heal from injuries and it was not a banned substance by mlb. He will try to say it was prescribed by a doctor and legal in that respect. But time will tell. I think he is making a big mistake by keeping quiet. And I think an even bigger mistake if he denies its use. Unless he never used it. And how is he ever going to prove he didnt? He is in a no win situation. If he says he used he is a cheater. If he says he never did he is a liar. Caught between a rock and a hard place wouldnt you say?

Coach May,

I think he got some really bad advice from his lawyers.

He needs to fire them soon.

Ultimately - I think he will have to come out and tell us all that he cheated and lied - and just get it over with.

Doing the Bonds shuffle - is just going to make it worse for Roger. IMO.