Why have we not heard from Clemens?

I think there is light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully the demand for reform will be heard. No, nobody will sue. They would have sued already. They had 60 days notice before the report.

Maybe Roger called ESPN but his call got dropped.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Maybe Roger called ESPN but his call got dropped.

or maybe he's waiting to chuck some bats at someone

Or perhaps his attorney(S) is gathering facts----Pettitte has said nothing either---not has Tejada

Or perhaps they (Clemens and others ) are thinking about how they will approach the accusations if true, first with family, then with fans.

If it was me and I was totaling innocent, I too would have been on the air at 2:01.

It's time to stop making excuses for those who knowingly may have made a huge mistake.

quote:

If it was me and I was totaling innocent, I too would have been on the air at 2:01.

Agree. I would also sue them and it would not matter whether or not I could actually prove the case in court i.e., overcome the proof of malice requirement for a public figure. Carol Burnett showed it can be done when the truth is on your side.

TPM

I love your statement---you are not even sure--you said " It's time to stop making excuses for those you knowingly may have made a big mistake"---what does "may have" mean ?

Again I ask all of you---if it was your son being accused by a no facts guy who is trying to beat a felony rap what would you be doing?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Or perhaps his attorney(S) is gathering facts----Pettitte has said nothing either---not has Tejada

or maybe they all flew to Costa Rica, um or are shopping?

Typical inane answer from you Dad04---I just like how you all jump on one or two of the names and ignore all the rest who are in the same basket

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:


Again I ask all of you---if it was your son being accused by a no facts guy who is trying to beat a felony rap what would you be doing?

If they had checks for the types of money demonstrated here combined with testimony and documents from a person who had access to and admittedly provide steroids and HGH, I wouldn't be posting they have "no facts," "no evidence."
They have all the evidence they need to put a person in jail and you and your son better have a darn good explanation and a way to present it in court without putting him on the stand to testify.

TR,
I was going by your theory, "They (being Bonds and Clemens as an example) may or may not have done this, but show me proof, reliable proof instead of hearsay and then I might reconsider".

Sometimes the evidence is so overwhelming it doesn't matter who it is coming from. Even when somone speaks the truth (the person accused) their loyal followers still cannot beleive they would have done such a thing. I can just here it now, "he had no choice, he was FORCED into it, he needed to save his butt, his record and his money". That makes them the same as the felon who told his side to save his butt.

Sometimes people have got to let go, admit they made a mistake and move on.

That goes for everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Typical inane answer from you Dad04---I just like how you all jump on one or two of the names and ignore all the rest who are in the same basket

I am not ignoring the rest, or the ones who probably should have made "the list".

I think we are just focusing in on the ones who made a nicer living (much nicer) at it than others.

TR,

Go to the Sports Illustrated web site and look at the canceled checks written to the suppliers. Unless Tejada et als have explanations for those checks, I think there are "facts" that say an awful lot of these guys did exactly what they're accused of doing.

I'd dearly love to believe there are rational explanations and some players may have some, but it's pretty hard to imagine that an awful lot of these guys weren't juicing.

They will never admit guilt. Its not going to happen. They will continue to deny and hope that eventually it goes away. I can tell you this. If I was accused to something like this. I could careless what my lawyer said. I would be on a tv camera 24/7 defending myself and my name. It reminds of the guy accused of killing his wife. But he doesnt want to take a polygraph or make any statements to the police. If your innocent you shout it to the mountain tops in a situation like this. And you could careless what some suit is telling you to do.

It is amazing how you all wnat to take what as I say as me saying they were not juicing---I have never said that--what I say is that there no proof to date to convict any of them---and as for the checks none says anything about drugs, prescription or otherwise---they do not even say "services rendered"---AMAZING !!!!

Coach May - that is the truth IMO.

BTW - why would anyone spend any time worrying about some millionaire - playing a kids game - getting his name in the report? LOL

When Roger Clemens - or any of the rest of these bums - expresses his concern about my utility bill - I will express concern about their alleged criminal behavior.

Until then - they can keep on entertaining and taking my money and I can keep ignoring their self induced problems. That deal works fine with me.

Gamer thats pretty much how I feel about it as well. Here is what really bothers me. #1 How many guys never made it that would have if they had either cheated like the competition they were up against - or their competition was not allowed to cheat. #2 The records in baseball are sacred. Now they are a sham. And baseball sold itself out to put clowns in the seats that do not even appreciate baseball for what it really is or was. #3 These players actually think we adore them , or look up to them. I have more respect for the teacher , bus driver , electrician , carpenter etc that gets up every morning and does his job to the best of his ability. Does it because he loves what he is doing. And does the best job he can because he takes pride in everything he puts his name on. And gets back up every day to do it all over again.

Todays pro athletes are praised and coddled by people that have no clue. They are just ball players. Just because they make alot of money and are on tv does not mean they are important. My heroes are in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are at work right now doing their job and doing in right because they have pride in doing it right and with pride.

I love the game. I am not in love with those that play the game. I respect the guys that do it right and do it for the love of the game. The rest I will neve lose one minutes sleep over. I have never understood any grown man wearing another grown mans jersey on his back. Hell they can wear mine if they want. It means more to me than theres does to me.

I thought i heard on espn about due process of the law and slanderous remarks with no proof to back it up. I mean he was convicted of using, out of a court room and no chance to clear his name.


drill

I think that there are MANY who were not on the list who took steroids in some form or other who had middle men take care of purchases and never left a trail or got caught. The steroid issue needs to be taken care of but it just seems wrong to hand pick a few scapegoats who used before the line was drawn.

Well if you feel you have be done wrong and you are not guilty of what was said go for it. The problem is the more you stir s*#$ the more it stinks. It will be very interesting to see who fights back and who sits back. I can tell you this if you are guilty and you fight back you run the risk of some things coming out that will make it alot worse than it already it.

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
I think that there are MANY who were not on the list who took steroids in some form or other who had middle men take care of purchases and never left a trail or got caught. The steroid issue needs to be taken care of but it just seems wrong to hand pick a few scapegoats who used before the line was drawn.

I dont think it is ever wrong to catch a cheater and a liar - and then broadcast it to the world.

I think its great - and I hope they catch the rest of them too.

Ah, but we're ALL cheaters and liars to some degree.

TR-I agree with you that McNamee is a scum ball and that makes this even more compelling for all of those accused to step forward and proclaim their innocence. If you step forward and make it a credibility contest between Roger Clemens and McNamee or Tejada and Radinsky (sp?) I think you have a shot at reclaiming your good name. Right now the only voice we are hearing are those in the report and that is troublesome. The court of public opinion has no rules regarding remaining silent.

Coach May, I agree that the only people I feel for are those guys who got stuck in AA or AAA because the guys in front of them were roiding and keeping their job thereby blocking the path for young guys to get their cup of coffee in the bigs. A lot of dreams died in those syringes.

I met Clemens at a banquet in 03. I had the opportunity to watch him talk to my kids, Peter Gammons, Harold Reynolds, the owner of the Marlins and the manager, a young Brandon Webb, Roland Hemond and Joe Niekro. I was impressed with him as a person in that all these individuals got his undivided attention for a period of time. He had words of praise and encouragement for my kids. He related how impressed he was with Webb, and you should have seen him glow. He had a sense of reverence and showed immense respect for Hemond and Neikro. He was extremely human and humble. I don't worship him but I do respect him as a human being. That is why I chose him because he is the only one in the report that I have had the pleasure of meeting as a man. Shaking his hand and looking him in the eye. That is why I am dissappointed in his failure up to this point to defend himself. I don't know what he did or didn't do and in the grand scale of my life it doesn't matter.

deldad,
Very thought provoking.
I continue to feel there wasn't a reason to include names, but they were included so they would be the focus as opposed to MLB, the owners, and the Union, where I personally feel the responsibility needs to be shouldered.
In terms of Clemens, or any player, they are in a no win situation. If they say something, as Coach May indicates, there are major risks. If they say nothing, well, the results are clear.
But I think, for many of these players, there are aspects not being considered...their families and children. By including the names, very innocent adults, and especially children, are being impacted.
Yesterday, Santangelo talked about how he had to prepare his two children to deal with the repercussions at their school.
He described one encounter of his son with another student that sounded nasty, very nasty and righteous, as we could expect kids to be sometimes.
MLB didn't need to include names to establish they had/have a huge drug issue that needed/needs to be addressed by the Commissioner, the owners and the union.
They did it for a reason, I believe. If/when the union balks and Congress gets involved, we may indeed see the "why."
As a result, some who used didn't get included.
Some who didn't use probably did.
Families, and especially their children, who did neither will be encountering feelings and comments just as varied as we see posted here.

quote:

by I-Bystander: Ah, but we're ALL cheaters and liars to some degree

ah haaa!!!
I had quietly suspected that my coffee only had 1 cream the other day (I requested 2) & yours looked unusually light ... hmmm

also odd how your doughnut had jelly dripping everywhere & mine was empty

One of my fellow former college teammates showed up on that list. At first I was shocked and kepped asking myself, "why, why would he do that?"

After looking at his MLB career, he'd been up and down between the show and the minors for the last four years or so. Then it started to make a little since to me.

Then I asked myself, if I had been in that position, "on the verge of achieving my dream... What would I have done?"

My answer was, I don't know what I would have done. And that's what scares me.

He was on the D-Backs roster for a few years with Jason Grimsley, there's the connection.

C`mon guys,someone set roger up

quote:

Originally posted by Glove Man:
One of my fellow former college teammates showed up on that list. At first I was shocked and kepped asking myself, "why, why would he do that?"

After looking at his MLB career, he'd been up and down between the show and the minors for the last four years or so. Then it started to make a little since to me.

Then I asked myself, if I had been in that position, "on the verge of achieving my dream... What would I have done?"

My answer was, I don't know what I would have done. And that's what scares me.

He was on the D-Backs roster for a few years with Jason Grimsley, there's the connection.

Did your dream include cheating and breaking the rules, not to mention the law? Show some self respect. That just sends the message that you don't respect the players that didn't cheat. There's no subsitute for what's right. Cheating on purpose is not making a mistake. It' doing something wrong on purpose.

I think the explantion to this is very simple. If Roger Clemens were 100% innocent, IMO we would have heard from him if already.

I know if I was named in the report and I knew that I was 100% innocent, I would be on every mountain top screaming my innocnece with evidence to prove it.

Maybe Clemens would rather just count the dollars in his bank account rather than use some of them to defend himself in court

Bottom line is that all of the guys named in this report got PAID, cheaters or not. This report does not change the amount of zeroes in their bank account. Their HOF candidacy and legacies may be tarnished, but they still have the means to set up genrations of their families to come.

i think we have heard from Roger Clemens and have heard from him loud and clear.

Here's a guy who from '93 to '96 with the BoSox wins, 11,9,10 and 10 games leading to them letting him go and he lands with the Blue Jays where the "juicing" reportedly began and at the age of 36 after 4 seasons totalling 40 wins, he has back to back 20+ win seasons. His size changes dramatically and his behavior, well just look at his insane blow up years later with Mike Piazza.

Just like bonds, an adult human being's body does not change in this fashion and aging atheletes don't have these turn arounds where their performance approaching 40 surpasses anything they did before.

This is how clemens has spoken if you want to listen.

If you look at many, most if not all named, you have player after player who has a year or two completely inconsistent with anything they ever did before. You have an almost career minor leaguer like LoDuca who overnight is an allstar and then returns to form once off the "stuff". bonds never put up the kind of numbers in his pirate or early giant days that he did in later years when his shoe size went from 10 to 13 and hat size grew by 3 or 4 sizes.

These changes, these results are not devine intervention, they are not the result of legitimate work and work ethic. They are and can only be the direct result of the illegal use of the drugs as charged. Humans don't have these physical changes w/o the help of this chemistry. When something is contrary to all other human experience as are these situations, there is a reason and drugs are the reason in this instance.

Take any one of the players named and you will see the oddities of their stats and their performances and again, that is how they have spoken loud and clear. Ther ain't much more for clemens to say and virtually everything his lawyer has said thus far is nonsense. Like with bonds, they never deny anything, they just deny there is proof. Well to me, these ridiculous stats, these grotesque deformed cartoonish physiques and many other subtle factors are very much proof.

You think there's a reason clemens has signed late in the season after the drug testing has been done in spring training. Do you think there is a reason bonds suddenly starts shaving his head (these drugs lead to baldness and drug testing if far more accurate using a hair sample, so shave your head and the baldness ain't seen and the samples not there).

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound
Do I need to see these guys shoot up to see the obvious results.

In life some of us are never challenged in the way others are. For the police officer. Your building a house. Everything you have is sunk into the project. The man building your house takes several thousand dollars from you and declares bankrupcy. Your money is gone. Your house in about halfway completed. Your stuck with no where to turn. You are trying to find a way to make it work out. Your on patrol one night. You see a car abandoned on the interstate. You look inside and find 150 thousand dollars in a suitcase. There is no one around. No one knows you have even been there.

You are a minor league baseball player. You have worked your entire life to make it to the show. Your competition is using. You know it , everyone knows it. You have seen guys use and seen them take the jump needed to move on to the next level. You have a chance to do the same thing. Or you run the risk of being released.

Millions of scenarios. It comes down to whats inside you. What you are really made of. We all can justify whatever we want to justify. But we all know what is right and what is wrong. This whole thing comes down to character. It comes down to who you really are and what you are really about. Character is defined by what you do and who you are when no one is watching.

What we have here is greed. What we have here is the belief that if everyone else is doing it its ok for me to do it. What we have here is reality. Some people have character. And some people do not. Some people feel that they are above the law. And some people believe that right is right and wrong is wrong.

These players believe they are bigger than the game. They believe they are above reproach and above the law. Then when they get called out they want us to feel sorry for them and care about how their kids are going to feel. It is what it is. You reap what you sow. Maybe not right now. But sooner or later and sometimes in some pretty ironic ways.

quote:

by Beemax: Their HOF candidacy and legacies may be tarnished, but they still have the means to set up genrations of their families to come.

"setting up future generations with wealth" more often is a curse .. and SELDOM has the same effect as allowing them WORK to "set themselves up" and succeed ...

esp when principles are compromised to give people who aren't born yet more $$ than they can spend

Posted by Coach May

quote:

I love the game. I am not in love with those that play the game.

Ditto... Amen... and I HEARD THAT

I just read an article that states that Canseco claims that Arod was left off the list.

He also states that his new book includes info on him.

As we all know some consider Canseco a piece of garbage, he wrote his book for the money (obviously this runs rampant in this sport, doing things ou shouldn't for money) but we all know his book is what brought this out in the open. No one in that book ever brought charges of slander against him. In fact I don't remember anyone every denying anything, have you?

Arod can pursue slander if he wishes, but like most of those being mentioned, they never will, it's pretty hard to prove that allegations are NOT true without dragging up the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
In fact I don't remember anyone every denying anything, have you?

I can't remember the names of the players, but there were a few who denied what was written in his book TPM.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:


What we have here is greed. What we have here is the belief that if everyone else is doing it its ok for me to do it. What we have here is reality. Some people have character. And some people do not. Some people feel that they are above the law. And some people believe that right is right and wrong is wrong.

These players believe they are bigger than the game. They believe they are above reproach and above the law. Then when they get called out they want us to feel sorry for them and care about how their kids are going to feel. It is what it is. You reap what you sow. Maybe not right now. But sooner or later and sometimes in some pretty ironic ways.

Yup!

The Petitte statement satisfies me completely. I don't have a problem with him or his use. I tend to believe him. Wrong yes. Up front and straight forward yes. Any follow up by McNamee will be less than credible.

This is what I am looking for from Clemens and the others. I will give them the benefit of the doubt. I just have to have something.

In my opinion Petitte is a bigger liar now than before.

So we are to believe that he took HGH for two days and decided to stop? Please!!