Why is this?

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He said when when his college is announced at graduation it's going to be in line with the kids he's competing with in the classroom.

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Any other thoughts?

Because we all love our kids more than anyone else in the world. We want them to fulfill dreams and we do any/everything we can to help them. We are the best advocates they have or will ever have. It is our job!

I have not met a parent yet who does not overestimate their kids' abilities. (That includes myself). That is not a criticism because it is this unconditional love/support/belief that 'keeps them in the game' (whether it be baseball or math) when others were ready to give up on them.

I have seen this play out over and over in all facets of kids' development and while it is sometimes frustrating to a teacher/coach/counselor...it is often the catalyst that propels a kid or young adult to reach the next level that was thought by others to be un-reachable. It is what makes people strive, against all odds, to reach "unattainable" goals.

Many highly successful businesses were built in the face of hundreds/thousands of naysayers.

Its the American way and while we should constantly look in the mirror and ask ourselves if we're pushing too hard, we do not want to stamp out this unbridled optimism.

Sorry, I don't think I communicated clearly what I was talking about. I know we spend money and help our kids as much as we can, and I've certainly spent more than I should have (but did so happily and at great risk of Mrs. Krak's wrath!)

My question revolves more around ability, and how some kids can practice forever and ever and still not be very good. Those are the kids I really feel for when it comes to tryouts. I see them on the field practicing with their dad nine months out of the year, then they come to tryouts and there's no way the young man is playable. It's a very painful situation, but one that also can inspire anger and resentment in the player's parents (and sometimes the player as well). They often don't seem to see what I see during tryout time - and I always go over my pre-cut notes with my assistant coaches and captains - we've never NOT been on the same page about a kid.

Never easy to cut a kid when you know he's worked hard (and maybe even spent a lot of $$) but the skills are just dead in the water for whatever reason.

I don't know. It's 4:18 in the morning here and I'm ramblin'........

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I don't know. It's 4:18 in the morning here and I'm ramblin'........

Go to bed Krak.LOL

OK, I'll bite. I'm trying to burn the last half hour before the inmates are released from the asylum for the holiday.

A good friend said to me one time that the best ballplayers are born, not made. He said that if hitting at the highest level could be taught, then all those kids who are taking hitting lessons from the day they could pick up a bat would be hitting .500 in the majors. All those kids who were taking pitching lessons since they could say "ball" would throw 90 with devastating off-speed stuff. For those born with the baseball gift, the right coaching makes them better. But if you're not born with it, you can't learn it beyond a certain level.

I don't pretend to know the answer, but for sure there are certain things that can be developed if the innate gift exists, but can't be taught from scratch. Smoothness, instincts, timing, the ability to read the ball off the bat. Those things that can't be measured with a stopwatch or radar gun.

I am hoping two things. One that talent wins out and two that my son has enough talent to do that. I am working twice as many hours as I did 2 years ago for about 1/3 the money. The days of playing on a high quality travel team with workouts and superior instruction are over. The days of taking time to hit my son balls for a couple of hours are over. Luckily in Phoenix there are plenty of lower level tournaments where he can get some at bats for $50 a weekend. He can play one or two this fall. But when tryouts start in Feb, he will not have seen an 85 mph fastball with breaking stuff in 7 months. I know he will behind the other guys starting out. I just hope that his talent will let him catch up quick enough to play.

We will see.

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My question revolves more around ability, and how some kids can practice forever and ever and still not be very good. Those are the kids I really feel for when it comes to tryouts. I see them on the field practicing with their dad nine months out of the year, then they come to tryouts and there's no way the young man is playable.

Because you either have it or you don't. All the practice in the world or money spent on buying ability isn't gonna turn a kid who can't play into a varsity HS player. My son was a seasonal conditioner, practicer and player. Despite the limited amount of time he spent polishing up on his baseball skills, he was still always one of the best players out on the field as a little leaguer and was good enough to start on the HS varsity and was among the better varsity players on his team.
Even though there were a number of kids getting professional lessons for thousands of dollars, my son never spent one day in his baseball life in a baseball academy but had the natural instincts for the game and the physical tools to play at a pretty high level.

Sure, there were parts of his game he needed work on that would've been needed to succeed at the next level and had he worked year-round at it and we sent him to the academys and pay professional coaches, who knows how much better he could've made himself. He had a good foundation to work with but by time they're playing HS ball, they also have to want it to play at the next level.

There are some things you just can't teach kids such as instincts and natural ability

Now this didn't mean he never had to practice. He had to work his tail off and that's what he did when it came to the baseball season. Also, during his little legue and babe ruth league years leading into high school, he played for some pretty good coaches so he was taught well.

Now for the great athlete, the ones that really have it can pick up a ball for the first time and be better than 99.9% than anybody else. Then if they put in the work and time to polish their skills, they become special players.

Krak, It reverts back to what JB said ... we love our children. Consequently we wear rose colored glasses when we look at our son's baseball talents or listen to our daughters's musical talent.

What you see in a player as a coach isn't what the parent sees. You evaluate performance, the parent sees potential. I spend money on lessons developing my son, you see me squandering money. I was serious when I spent $250.00 for a glove when he was 12 yo. You probably think that was stupid.

Many times I've said: "The only reason I looked like I knew what I was doing with my son's baseball was because he actually HAD talent." I probably would have done many of the same things if he wasn't talented and then my real knowledge (or lack of) would have shown through and this post would be about ME.

So I agree with your fundamental premiss that baseball players either have talent or they don't. Can you improve with practice? ... ABSOLUTELY! But you still can't make chicken salad out of chicken doodoo.
Fungo

Sometimes as parents we see what we want to see in our children and convince ourselves that they have the talent and with hard work they can be as good as we want them to be.
We had one parent that had a son who we knew from living up the street and was a friend of my son's. He wanted to play ball because my son played. Very nice kid but walking and chewing gum was a challenge for him. His parents never came to a game that first year. The next year because he didn't make the tournament team his father started to train him. He bought a batting cage, pitching machine, top of the line gloves and bats and hired a pitching coach. he got a little better but not much. His father took him to all the top travel teams in the area and never was picked up. When he got to high school, he played his first and second year for a team that had not won a league game for 5 years and still was not a starter. His junior year, his parents put him into one of the top private schools in Northern Calif. and he again, didn't make the team for his 11th and 12th grade. He tried to play C.C. ball the following year and never made the team. This was one of the nicest kids I ever meant, but he was trying to live his father's dream.

My wife and I were talking about this this morning, only 2 players from my son's high school in the last 4 years are still playing ball at any level.

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Posted by Fungo:
Many times I've said: "The only reason I looked like I knew what I was doing with my son's baseball was because he actually HAD talent."

Bingo!

Most of us are taught early on that with hard work we can accomplish anything.

But, I think that a realistic perspective is a little different.

I think it should be 'without hard work' you won't accomplish anything.

I believe that hard work will enable most players to make it through high school baseball.

But, for the 10% or so that make it beyond high school baseball, it takes talent, luck, and hard work.

It is true that the harder a person works, the luckier they get.

So, hard work and some luck, created from hard work, might get you into college baseball.

The players that begin to stand out in college though, have talent.

And, their hard work has created some luck that propels them to the highest levels of baseball.

Talent and hard work get players drafted out of high school into professional baseball.

Those players previous hard work has demonstrated that they are willing to do what is necessary to hone their talent to a level that is sufficient to compete in Major League Baseball.

Then those players must have some luck to avoid injuries and getting stuck behind other talented players.

You don't see many players in professional baseball that don't work hard.

Some are less talented than others and luck plays an important part of their success.

There are players with enough talent that work work hard who don't need the luck.

It's hard to imagine that much talent, but I have been fortunate to observe it.

Buster Posey comes to mind quickly.

He's extremely talented and I watched him dominate the California League for a few weeks in 2009.

He has the kind of talent that I am describing when I say with enough talent.

He also had some luck because Molina was older and there was a place for Posey's talent to be utilized.

Very few players can work hard enough and be lucky enough to overcome someone with talent like Buster Posey.

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But you still can't make chicken salad out of chicken doodoo.

That's what I was trying to say.

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I have not met a parent yet who does not overestimate their kids' abilities.

I would take this remark just a bit further in my comment to your question Krak;

Most often when I have seen a Parent with unreasonable expectations regarding their son's athletic ability, those Parents were NON-ATHLETES themselves! They have become through their children; athlete WANNABEES!

The former athlete Coaches and Parents that I have experienced, have for the most part, been fairly objective in evaluating and projecting their athletes ability. JMO...

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The former athlete Coaches and Parents that I have experienced, have for the most part, been fairly objective in evaluating and projecting their athletes ability. JMO...

Interesting comment. Probably a lot of truth to that. But a couple of the most unrealistic parents I ever met were former MLBers. Then again, some of the most realistic ones I ever met were MLBers too!

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Buster Posey comes to mind quickly.

He's extremely talented and I watched him dominate the California League for a few weeks in 2009.

He has the kind of talent that I am describing when I say with enough talent.

He also had some luck because Molina was older and there was a place for Posey's talent to be utilized.

Very few players can work hard enough and be lucky enough to overcome someone with talent like Buster Posey.

Also interesting.

Buster was on the USA 18U team with my son in 2004 in Taiwan. He pitched (and was pretty darn good), but barely got any ABs as I don't think he was seen as much as a hitting prospect as a pitching prospect at that time.

What changed? Someone saw the light? Or he got a lot better?

I got to meet some of his family on that trip. While they were very nice people and handled themselves with complete class I do think his lack of ABs was frustrating to them at that time. Guess they were right!

Some great comments, alot can be taken from all of them. I kinda see it from a different prospective.

I think it's a double edged sword. There ARE players with average talent involved in what I call the baseball rat race, enabled by their parents, etc. But, the real enablers are the summer programs with multiple teams in an single age group, collecting player fees. As long as there is a means to place a player, and a summer club to charge and receive a large player fee, there will be players with less than playable talent at tryouts and on summer rosters at major events.

Having said that, I am a parent too, guilty of wanting to help GUN reach/fullfill his dreams.

Guilty, as charged. GED10DaD

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Originally posted by FormerObserver:
But, for the 10% or so that make it beyond high school baseball, it takes talent, luck, and hard work.

I agree with that.

I would caution people about projecting young ball players - either way - up or down. I've seen the "He'll never amount to anything type player" end up amounting to a lot (see PG's story about his own son for example). I've also seen "He is a can't miss superstar" fizzle out when the competition heats up in high school. I know this, I am almost always disappointed by hype. It never lives up to itself.

I believe in those corny stories like the "Ugly Duckling" or "The Tortoise and the Hare" and believe it is especially true for baseball since it is so darn hard to learn and master. Sometimes, it takes years and years for real baseball ability to show itself and I would put Buster Posey in that category as well. Sure, everyone now can tell Buster is a premier prospect but as justbb points out, it wasn't always that way.

I think it is cool that parents see their kids like no one else does. It annoys me sometimes when they try and convince me of their "special talent" and "gifts" however. Let the kids play, encourage their dreams, let their play do all their talking, root for ALL the kids to succeed, and let the chips fall where they may. What you see today may not be reality tomorrow.

Sure agree with you clevelanddad.

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Originally posted by FormerObserver:

I believe that hard work will enable most players to make it through high school baseball.

I have seen this happen many times in fastpitch and baseball. Kids that weren't very good, spend a few years in intense travel ball, and they are good enough for their HS team.

Our two sons are a prime example of this thread. Our oldest was diagnosed with brain cancer at three. Our dream was that he would beat it. Well, he is now a 16 year old starting defensive tackle on his football team. He has endured so much, and his perseverance has made him one bad dude. But after 10 years of occupational therapy, and three of physical therapy, (along with 10 years of speech), he simply didn't have the skill sets to play high school baseball. He loved it, and worked as hard as anyone I ever saw. Actually, he could hit a ball and many encouraged him to DH, but his fine motor skills just aren't that good. He knew he would be a better football player: strong and mentally tough. Get knocked down, and get right back up again. It's the best decision he ever made, and we fully supported it.

Other son just gravitated to baseball, and it seems to fit. I would say the biggest expense is travel. We do see some kids spending an awful lot that really aren't that good, but they seem to figure it out on their own and move on to something they are better at. (Actually, the kids seem to figure it out before some parents.) We are thinking of giving son a budget for his baseball next spring/summer that he must work within. That way he can fully see and appreciate the amount of money we spend on him, and hold him more accountable.

No matter what happens with our children, our younger baseball playing son would tell anyone that listened that he developed his mental strength and disposition, his best quality, by watching his brother persevere. If younger son is able to fulfill his dreams in baseball, he will not hesitate to let anyone know that his older brother was his example.

smalltownmom,

Great story smalltownmom!

And I really like this idea too!

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We are thinking of giving son a budget for his baseball next spring/summer that he must work within. That way he can fully see and appreciate the amount of money we spend on him, and hold him more accountable.

smalltownmom - loved that story!

I think I'll add to my comments...

There's been lots of talk about dreams lately and rightly so because I think they are the key to everything.

How about seeing your 3 year old child be diganosed with a potentially terminal condition and now seeing them playing on the high school football field all these years later.... if someone has a dream to top that I would like to hear it... to be fair, that one cannot be topped only matched in its emotion... I need to wipe my eyes a bit...

Thanks. God is good.

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Originally posted by smalltownmom:
Thanks. God is good.

Yes indeed. But you, his parent(s), most certainly are good too!

I agree with CD, stmom.....that was a great heart-tapper to read on Thanksgiving morning (other side of dateline). Thanks for sharing that gift of a story with us!

smalltownmon that was an awesome story. I can not imagine how hard that was for your family. I know it has to be so special to see him out there doing his thing on Friday nights knowing everything he has had to go through. Just a great story thanks for sharing.

Thanks for sharing stmom...in my field of work where life is always on the balance..your story just proved that miracles do still happen.. God Bless and Good Luck to your family.

stmom,
I love to read that story about both your son's and the inspiration, and more than a bit of pride, that I'll bet exists between them, and the parents, especially. Great story. Even better parenting. Congratulations.
Team chemistry is so important in HS and college. I have a pretty good idea of the impact your 16 year old may well have on his team/teammates.
When our son was a senior in HS, he came home after the 1st week of practice and raved about a new junior, and how that junior was creating an expectation which was driving every other player. Turns out that player had significant spasticity, weakness and impairment in both his left arm and leg resulting from a heart attack at age 3. While he did not play all that much, Greg drove his team to a championship, when most doubted that team. Toward the end of the season, Greg got his first AB and hit, a blooper to right, and was almost thrown out as he struggled to reach 1st.
When the safe sign went up, every player on both teams cheered. The smile, the raised right arm at 1B and that player clapping as he stood "airborn" on 1B was not to be forgotten.
The respect he earned that day from one of top coaches in the top conferences in our area was amazing.
A few years later, Greg, my wife and I trained and ran the San Diego marathon...Greg beat us.
Saw him a few weeks ago...he is training for another marathon. I politely declined this invitation to once again join him.
I have an idea of the inspiration and courage of which you speak. When you see it happen, it seems easy to answer "why is this?"
Of course in San Diego, I was watching from his back wondering "why is this?

Well, for me, its the smile, the challenge, the team work skills, the obvious fun he's having.

We all get cut at some time. If a few extra bucks will give him the skills, enthusiasm to practice/develop, self confidence to score another season in a starting position then I'd rather spend the $$ there than going out to dinner, buying the more expensive bottle of wine. And I can get another year out of my old junker car.

I do the same with my other kids and their chosen sports. Play College.....****, who knows, something of a gamble. I tend to take the short term view and encourage general physical fitness, education, and fun thru sports. Everything in moderation including baseball, showcases and high level travel teams.

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smalltownmon that was an awesome story. I can not imagine how hard that was for your family. I know it has to be so special to see him out there doing his thing on Friday nights knowing everything he has had to go through. Just a great story thanks for sharing.

DITTO!!!

I look at it from a slightly different perspective. I do not know how far my son can go in baseball. I know that we are told that he is really good at blocking balls behind the plate. I know that he can hit pretty well, and gets on base a lot. I know all his coaches say he has "fast hands". I know that he has been ablt to hit a pitched ball since he was 3 years old. But does he have what it takes?

It is not for me to decide if he can play college ball. I want to make options available to him so he has the chance to get to that level. He has some talent but he doesn't have so much that he can get where he wants to go without working hard. I tell him that in my view he has to work hard to get there.

I'd rather see him try and fall short, than not try at all. Not just in baseball, but in whatever he pursues.

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Originally posted by ClevelandDad:... I would caution people about projecting young ball players - either way - up or down.... I think it is cool that parents see their kids like no one else does. It annoys me sometimes when they try and convince me of their "special talent" and "gifts" however. Let the kids play, encourage their dreams, let their play do all their talking, root for ALL the kids to succeed, and let the chips fall where they may. What you see today may not be reality tomorrow.

Along those lines I would suggest two books "The Talent Code" by Dan Coyle, and "Talent is Overrated, what separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else," by Geof Colvin. The books don't say exactly the same thing, but the gist of both is that while there will always be differences in innate abilities, the difference between the good and the great is the amount of work the athlete is willing to do. Good reading.

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We are thinking of giving son a budget for his baseball next spring/summer that he must work within. That way he can fully see and appreciate the amount of money we spend on him, and hold him more accountable.

Great stuff.

For pitchers..

It takes talent to throw 85.
It takes hard work to throw 85.
It talkes talent and hard work to throw 90.

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I look at it from a slightly different perspective. I do not know how far my son can go in baseball. I know that we are told that he is really good at blocking balls behind the plate. I know that he can hit pretty well, and gets on base a lot. I know all his coaches say he has "fast hands". I know that he has been ablt to hit a pitched ball since he was 3 years old. But does he have what it takes?

It is not for me to decide if he can play college ball. I want to make options available to him so he has the chance to get to that level. He has some talent but he doesn't have so much that he can get where he wants to go without working hard. I tell him that in my view he has to work hard to get there.

I'd rather see him try and fall short, than not try at all. Not just in baseball, but in whatever he pursues.

Twotex, you message says it all for me. We've been told my numerous coaches(from LL through HS level travel,as well as one very decent college) that my son has talent. That said, he has not had an easy "career" thus far. He's young for his grade and very tall but not physically mature. He doesn't always have confidence against more developed kids in his grade, but he knows he does well against his age. Sometimes he shines; other times he struggles. His goal is to work hard and stay in the game long enough to see how he fares when the dispararities among players at various stages of development start to level out. There are just too many stories out there of kids who were behind the curve in HS, but ended up doing well as they got older.

As parents, we understand the position he's in, and so are happy to help him try to realize his dreams. I just want him to follow this path to its logical conclusion. We sacrifice a lot to help him, but as I've said before on another thread, not so much that we'd regret any of it if he decided tomorrow to pursue something else. The lessons, practices, work outs etc. all keep him busy and out of trouble, and he's benefited so much from the entire experience. Sort of seems like we're paying for a scenic train trip with no particular destination in mind. So long as we're enjoying ourselves, it's all good.

The higher a players goes in the game the more the things that can be measured mean less. The higher a player goes in the game the less his skills in the game will be better or worse than the players he is competing against and with. What will be the difference? The things that can not be measured. The things that can not be coached. The things that can not be seen with the human eye. Mental toughness. Passion for the game. Heart. Discipline.

The things we see as road blocks , set backs , adversity , etc etc. They are the things that forge the steel. Those are the things that give the player a toughness and a desire to overcome whatever obstacles he must overcome. When the talent is equal or very close. Those are the things that will ultimately determine success or failure. Too many times we as parents want to shelter our kids from struggle. We want everything to go just right. We want to manipulate the situation so they can be happy. We are taking away what they need in order to succeed when we are no longer in a position to do these things.

Every player is born with a certain amount of God given ability. Every player is born with a certain amount of potential. If they are willing to work to reach their very best. And they are willing to sacrifice for what they want. Then they will be all they can be. And if they reach that goal we should be very very proud of them regardless of how far that takes them in this game. Because those traits will take them a long way in the biggest game of all. Life!

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Originally posted by Fungo:

... we love our children. Consequently we wear rose colored glasses when we look at our son's baseball talents or listen to our daughters's musical talent.

Thus the creation of American Idol....LOL. It ultimately comes to an end for most.

I remember when younggun was trying out for East Cobb a few years back. When I saw the talents of Ethan Martin, Brett Devall, Michael Pallazone, etc. I knew REAL quick where my son's talents were. And I encouraged him to play where those talents were. Not to give up, but keep working hard.