Why is this?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
The higher a players goes in the game the more the things that can be measured mean less. The higher a player goes in the game the less his skills in the game will be better or worse than the players he is competing against and with. What will be the difference? The things that can not be measured. The things that can not be coached. The things that can not be seen with the human eye. Mental toughness. Passion for the game. Heart. Discipline.

The things we see as road blocks , set backs , adversity , etc etc. They are the things that forge the steel. Those are the things that give the player a toughness and a desire to overcome whatever obstacles he must overcome. When the talent is equal or very close. Those are the things that will ultimately determine success or failure. Too many times we as parents want to shelter our kids from struggle. We want everything to go just right. We want to manipulate the situation so they can be happy. We are taking away what they need in order to succeed when we are no longer in a position to do these things.

Every player is born with a certain amount of God given ability. Every player is born with a certain amount of potential. If they are willing to work to reach their very best. And they are willing to sacrifice for what they want. Then they will be all they can be. And if they reach that goal we should be very very proud of them regardless of how far that takes them in this game. Because those traits will take them a long way in the biggest game of all. Life!

Simply loved that post. It's all true.

Much of what is described here must be experienced to be understood. Most if not all who post here, I assume their son's are serious players with parents who desperately want to see them play past high school. I know that is how I was. These players are many times the best players in their areas, counties, and states. Once-in-a-generation or even once-in-a-lifetime type players depending on the area.

The hard part to grasp is that every player at the next level has that same profile. Very little often separates the very best from those who experience very little, if any, success. I know I was hopelessly naive to all that when my son attended college. In the back of my mind, he was the one who was going to see his name in the lineup from day 1. Some kids do obviously but most don't. Mine didn't and only now with hindsight do I see that was good. I now can see the steel that was forged from softer metal (keeping in sync with Coach May's fine metaphor).

Ultimatley it comes down to this: Can you out-hit the other guys that are vying for your position?

It gets harder and harder.

quote:

The things that can not be coached. The things that can not be seen with the human eye. Mental toughness. Passion for the game. Heart. Discipline.

Coach, very thought provoking.
I actually do think good coaches at every level coach these. Good coaches inspire their players, drive their players and get their players to recognize they are not playing to the level of their talent, teach them where that level is and how to get there.
Good coaches do this in very different ways. But good coaches are good and consistent and produce winning teams and players.
Certainly, not every player accepts the coaching. Some actually resist it.
For many, many players I think they can point to a coach, maybe two, who made them believe in themselves and their skills, who inspired them to dig deeper and see what was inside and what they were not giving, or didn't realize they had to give.
Just as you and your posts provide an inspiration for so many on this site, I truly believe that great coaches do that from the dugout, from 1:1 meetings and the like. I'll bet there are many of your former players who were changed by you in the ways I am describing.
Top coaches set the bar far higher than the player ever set for themselves.
Then they teach, coach, demand, command, push and motivate to get them to that level.
Great coaches see things in great players that great players don't see in themselves.
For the most part, my view is great players are not born. A great coach along the way made the difference.

What I meant in that statement was "The things that can not be coached." And the things that can not be seen with the human eye. Mental toughness. Passion for the game. Heart. Discipline.

Nice post I agree with every word of it.

Is it possible to coach "Mental Toughness"? Or coach "Heart" or "Desire"?

I can see a coach encouraging and supporting these intangibles...But how can a coach instill a "Love for the game" or "Desire"? Especially at the higher amateur levels.

I really believe that these intangibles are developed at the earliest stages of our children’s psychological development, and their early baseball development, 12 years old and under.

A coach can get a lot out of a player, but cannot create what is not there.

I do think good/great HS and college coaches have a way of identifying and bringing out heart and desire.

I certainly think they can coach mental toughness. Of these intangibles, I think the toughness would be the easiest, not easy, but the easiest.
One place I know heart and desire can be coached is with the player who is struggling, whether it is to make it at the next level, or making adjustments and succeeding. More than a few of those kids want to give up. Some do, some don't.
I don't believe for a minute those results are not impacted greatly by good or poor coaching.
While I would very much agree that many of these traits are influenced, positively and negatively by experiences and coaching up through age 12, I don't believe those experiences, especially the negatives, create a picture that cannot be altered.
I recently had a nice discussion with a terrific college coach. The point of discussion was/is whether leadership can be taught in the context of college baseball.
He convinced me he feels it can be and that making the effort is very much worth the risk. His view, in part, is that you truly never know how much you can get from a player until you put them into the position of risking most everything.
His view was you don't put them into that position without support and teaching along the way. Because some experience by age 12 might have left a kid feeling empty, that feeling can be changed by great coaching when that player is 18.

I like your philosophy. It is a very positive one!

Your thoughts on the aspects of development based on experiences by age 12 are thoughts with which I very much agree.
Until about 3-4 years ago, I also didn't think there was much that could be done to change the impact of those experiences.
Some programs and training changed my views.
Little doubt that the player does need to be coachable.
The player also needs to "trust" and be willing to "trust" what he is being taught by his coaches. He also needs very, very good coaches.
The positives that can come from a talented coach who "invests" and believes in a coachable player can be pretty remarkable, I think.

This a "true"story.

In 1984, we were preparing for our Goodwill Series II against the Japan National HS Team.

The California pro scouts recommended players from Northern California for our American High School Team for this 1st trip to Japan.

This was my 2nd year coaching American Legion baseball in a "new" SF Bay Area league of 5 teams [40 future ML players played in this league for my 6 years of coaching.

A very good player from Stockton, a catcher and strong hitter who impressed our players. I asked his father, a ML Scout and former MLB pitcher. "Can your son play on the "highest" level in Baseball?"

The father did not think his son Ed Sprague JR. could play on this level. Of course, he could and later played Stanford, MLB "All Star" player and Olympic player now the Head Coach at UOP.

During my 17 years with the Area Code games and 27 years in International Baseball, I learned that former ML players do not promote their son.

This year to Australia, we have Dante Bischette Jr,
Tucker Ward and Tyler Watson traveling and each player was recommended by a pro scout not by the father.

In summary, it is the player himself, who will find a way to "step up" to the plate and make the necessary adjustments.

Each of our teams will play 13 games in 15 days against the best players in Australia.

Our coaches, 9 pro scouts will teach the game and our players will be prepared for college or pro baseball.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
Is it possible to coach "Mental Toughness"? Or coach "Heart" or "Desire"?

infielddad - for starters great observations and interesting takes.

floridafan - I think one way those things are coached is through competition. That is the tool imho that brings that stuff to the surface. My son is a heart and desire type of player but the college experience certainly brought more out of him than I believe either of us thought he might have.

What they do when they recruit kids is recruit many fine athletes and then let the creme rise and human nature take its course. Some kids will want things just a wee bit more sometimes and sometimes that is all it takes to separate things. Lets also not forget that luck plays a part in all of this at every level of baseball.

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Going back to the OP issue....I think that some of the problem is that people mistake spending money and an hour and a half twice a week for 'working at it'. Baseball seems unique to me as a sport. I would wager that baseball has the absolute highest ratio of game playing hours to practice hours of any sport that kids play. And during the games, unless you're a pitcher or catcher, you're getting precious few repetitions of the skills you need to develop.

Of course, no one, kids, parents, and coaches included, wants to substitute hours of taking grounders, throwing, and swinging the bat, for the hours of game time. But if some of them would, they would become much better players, imo.

pedropere, excellent post. You've hit the nail on the head.

quote:

Originally posted by Pedropere:
I would wager that baseball has the absolute highest ratio of game playing hours to practice hours of any sport that kids play

How about wrestling? We'd practice 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. I once got pinned in 13 seconds.

Sorry for jumping in late--great stuff here.

Quote from Krak OP

“My question revolves more around ability, and how some kids can practice forever and ever and still not be very good. Those are the kids I really feel for when it comes to tryouts. I see them on the field practicing with their dad nine months out of the year, then they come to tryouts and there's no way the young man is playable.”

-- Krak, as to the dads coaching their sons 9 months out of the year—if a player is practicing a skill the wrong way or not on par with a more effective way of teaching that skill, be it 9 times or for 9 months, they will only manage to get a lot better at doing it the wrong way. Most (not all) dads can only teach what they know and that is not a knock on those dads simply trying to help their sons improve. Sounds to me like you are dealing directly with that situation.

Some solid cred on this:
More players never reach their potential because of a lack of quality instruction rather than a lack of ability." ~ Rod Dedeaux --NCAA Division I "Coach of the Century"
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Quote from 2BMOM: “A good friend said to me one time that the best ballplayers are born, not made.”

-- A great (some say greatest ever) baseball player once said to anyone who would listen-

“Ballplayers are not born great. They’re not born hitters or pitchers or managers. And luck isn’t the key factor. No one has come up for a substitute for hard work. I’ve never met a great baseball player who didn’t have to work harder at learning to play baseball than anything else he ever did.” ~Ted Williams
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Quote from 2BMOM: For those born with the baseball gift, the right coaching makes them better. But if you're not born with it, you can't learn it beyond a certain level.

Though we disagree on the born with it part—2BMOM is spot on about the right coaching which ties-in with my belief but more importantly the philosophy of legendary Coach Dedeaux.

Bum,

I'm quite familiar with that sport.

There was an article somewhere about the rise of the Tidewater area as a producer of pro players that talked about a fellow from the midwest who moved there years ago and led the organization of various coaching clinics and other development activities that emphasized repetitive drills for skill development. I can't remember the guy's name, but it was an interesting article in the context of how to practice optimally.

quote:

No one has come up for a substitute for hard work. I’ve never met a great baseball player who didn’t have to work harder at learning to play baseball than anything else he ever did.” ~Ted Williams

Great quote which I'm going to add to the bottom of all my outbound coach e-mails!

I recently read a book about Japanese baseball, and how foreigners have fared in its not-always-friendly confines, and it talks about how Japanese train with serious repetition. Things like "100s" (one hundred grounders non-stop, and you'd better not miss one).

Here's an interesting video to watch in light of the discussion.

I have not agreed with much on this thread till I read ne14bb which I agree with 100%.

Have watched many players practice parts of the game incorrectly over and over again just reinforcing bad habits and not improving.

They mean well but are actually hurting their chances for making that team.

2bagger thanks for support in my opinions on this topic.

I have always been against the whole "practice makes perfect" saying and do not agree with "perfect practice makes perfect either."

Am all for striving for "progress over perfection" where one is much more easily attainable than the other.

"PROgress comes from proper practice" --to properly PROgress--learn the game and practice it like a PRO!

There is a right way and wrong way to execute skills in this game--appropriately the PRO's wrote the book on the right way to play.

You want to advance in this game then become a student of the game or be coached by someone who is. You WILL make mistakes but when you learn from them--making mistakes is the same thing as making PROgress!

This is the link to the story I was trying to remember. I didn't quite have the best memory.
http://www.baseballamerica.com.../050603virginia.html

Wonderful posts by Coach May and others, I agree completely. Yes, we are pretty much desparate to have our kids go on to the next level, and it happens in all sports ( and life in general).

I substitute teach at a high school and see way too often the result of parents who either don't care or don't choose to be involved in their children's lives. It breaks your heart.

Wow! Great discussion.

Some parents just need a dose of reality, don't they! I have umpired some great players and I think I have an idea of what it takes to make it to the next level (college).

I tell my son (2014) everday that I have seen guys like Clint Moore, Jeff May, Pratt Maynard, Matt Roberts, Nick Rogers, Josh Tobias, etc, etc.

I have seen they are men among boys on the high school baseball field. They are next level players, without a doubt.

I remember a game at Eastern Alamance a few years ago where I was lucky enough to have the dish with Jeff behind the plate and Pratt on the mound. The interaction with these two was the highlight of my night.

They just work hard, period. Plus, they have some awesome talent.

I tell my son often that if/when he gets to that level, I'll let him know. These other parents I see on a dilay basis think their Johnny is already there. Sad, really, for them all.

quote:

Originally posted by Krakatoa: My question revolves more around ability, and how some kids can practice forever and ever and still not be very good. Those are the kids I really feel for when it comes to tryouts. I see them on the field practicing with their dad nine months out of the year, then they come to tryouts and there's no way the young man is playable. It's a very painful situation, but one that also can inspire anger and resentment in the player's parents (and sometimes the player as well). They often don't seem to see what I see during tryout time - and I always go over my pre-cut notes with my assistant coaches and captains - we've never NOT been on the same page about a kid.

Krak….Thoughts…(I’ll take a Krak at this?)

Beyond the obvious and well documented parental optimism/delusion/love/bias/blindness regarding of their own children....

IMO...Here is where we make our mistake; In an age of twitter, instant gratification, pat self help slogans, and The Secret...many of us have come to under appreciate three things...the nature of talent, the process/craft of developing it, and the real life long reasons for doing so..

First we misunderstand the nature of talent...The reality is that we were all given a wonderful package of skills/raw materials to recognize, explore, develop and perhaps exploit…but the reality is also that that despite the advertising hype, all men are not created equal. Every package is different. Baseball comes easier to some than others...so does Physics. This is very hard for some to understand...particularly parents...when sport is so highly visible and prized.

Second, we misunderstand the nature of athletic development. Fact is, that while we have culturalized some of the more important lessons needed for that process (hard work, passion, determination…)...we generally hold a very simplistic, and layman’s view of the athletic reality, and just as bad the time frames required in development. “Hard work and passion” are only two pieces of a much larger puzzle. Yet and as parents we push those two areas hard, and we are culturally conditioned expect immediate results. I watch parents regularly, ones who work a son hard and then expect him to regurgitate a completely unrealistic level of competency and achievement given his level of tools and development. The kid struggles, gives it everything he has and does simply remarkable things for what little he has been trained, often overachieves…and still gets soundly criticzed. It simply takes a great deal of time for most players...years...decades...lifetimes. This is very hard for some to understand…particularly parents….parents who maybe for the right reasons want to be part of the solution, but simply misunderstand the nature of talent…and the process of development.

Third, we misunderstand the reason for developing talent. We have been culturally programmed to believe that it is all about winning. And maybe, because of the money ,that is true at a professional level…but below that the process is about life lessons and building better people and a better world. Yea strive hard to win…but Loss or win, make the team or not there are priceless lessons in every battle, in every practice for players…and for parents. You get cut, you have a choice, dig in deeper, realizing the nature of the competition you are, and will be dealing with, for the rest of your days and little better understanding the effort and time required…or maybe shift to something you have more of an affinity for…,say Physics. That is the real reason for making the effort; lessons, and personal growth. This is very hard for some to understand…particularly parents….parents who maybe for the right reasons want to be part of the solution, but simply misunderstand the nature of talent…and the process of development….and the real reasons for undertaking the effort.

Suggestions? First, compassion, for they know not what they do. Second, at some level understand that the lesson that you are teaching by cutting them may be far more valuable to them than making the team

44

PS...talking to teachers I have to agree with mikamom...whole lotta kids out there simply being ignored...
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I think when we hear "the next level" most automatically assume D1. I have seen lots of good-not great, or men amongst boys type players receive college offers in my area.
There are many levels of "the next level"

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:
First we misunderstand the nature of talent...The reality is that we were all given a wonderful package of skills/raw materials to recognize, explore, develop and perhaps exploit…but the reality is also that that despite the advertising hype, all men are not created equal. Every package is different. Baseball comes easier to some than others...so does Physics. This is very hard for some to understand...particularly parents...when sport is so highly visible and prized.

I think everybody misunderstands the nature of talent to a certain extent - even professionals who are supposed to understand it sometimes. Sure, any 6th grader can tell you NOW that Tom Brady is a good quarterback but where were those sentiments when all 30 NFL teams passed him over 6 times? Drew Brees doesn't fit the Jeff George or Derek Anderson physical profile for "talent" yet he is 1,000 times the player.

Luck is downplayed too much in our society. One guy gets 1,000 chances to prove his talent because EVERYONE thinks he should be given those chances. Another guy, potentially more talented, never gets the chance because nobody sees him as having the talent and it never gets to show itself. Yet another guy gets that 1-in-a-million chance and due to circumstances, gets to prove everyone wrong such as Kurt Warner.

I agree with your logic ob44 but I also think there is an invisible hand at play. Sometimes a player's best talent is his perseverence to let it play out down the road. Often times, the only people who believe are parents and the players. Sometimes it is only the player who believes. Either way, strange forces are at play when one day a guy is stocking grocery store shelves and another day he is a hall of fame quarterback. It takes more than talent in many cases.

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Completely agreed...

Beyond the question and process of why/how some players get better and others do not...

...is the entirely different question of why and how players move forward...that opens up an entirely different discussion...and a great one.

IMO...It is an entirely different misunderstanding...and not what anyone wants to hear...but much like the rest of life (and unlike tennis and golf)...the movement system in baseball is as much subjectively based/biased, as it is statistically/sybermetrically/results based. While you can improve your talent, your statistics, your on field success and in the process your opporunities...in end, the reality is that you have to persude someone in a position of power to choose you over another. Statistics and talent do go a long way...but as it is primarily a subjective enterprise...players are at the whim of a wide range of subjective factors...politics, connections, money, personal bias, trends in the game/flavor of the week, ego, a desire to fit in, herd mentality, a willingness to take risk...and to be totally cynical, what a scout had for lunch.

These are hard realities for those of us who want to believe in the purity and sanctity of hard work, passion, talent, and performance...which is why I think life lessons are so important: so the fates delt you a poor hand, and you feel that you walked away with talent underappreciated (at any level)...In the end the REAL question is what did you get out of this process, bitterness? Or did you walk away better, valuing the journey and the lessons that it offers about yourself, your values, and world around you. Gold out of straw if you will.

44
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quote:

The higher a players goes in the game the more the things that can be measured mean less. The higher a player goes in the game the less his skills in the game will be better or worse than the players he is competing against and with. What will be the difference? The things that can not be measured. The things that can not be coached. The things that can not be seen with the human eye. Mental toughness. Passion for the game. Heart. Discipline.

Coach May... you have an insight into this game that most others can only dream of.

Thank you for contributing here...

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad: Sometimes a player's best talent is his perseverence to let it play out down the road. Often times, the only people who believe are parents and the players. Sometimes it is only the player who believes.

Others, of course, can speak to this better than I, but I will bet you that one of the greatest common denominators for minor league ballplayers is their strong belief in this. When that is gone, they are done.

quote:

Originally posted by TxMom:
So many thoughts running through my head while reading these posts. Hard work, passion, desire, perserverence all play a roll in competing at the highest level in baseball. In the end, however, I think talent still separates those that "stick" in MLB from those who don't.

I agree 100%.

The confusion I have is that the word "talent" itself is often times a nebulous or ambiguous term. I'll keep using football analogies since we are in football season. It's obvious now that Tom Brady is more talented than almost everyone else. It was far from clear 10 years ago when he was drafted however. At least Tom Brady attended Michigan and had that big school name going for him. Kurt Warner went to Northern Iowa. Who the heck ever heard of them?

So many thoughts running through my head while reading these posts. Hard work, passion, desire, perserverence all play a roll in competing at the highest level in baseball. In the end, however, I think talent still separates those that "stick" in MLB from those who don't.

Here's an argument for the "talent" side.

I got into a conversation with a Doctor at a Rapid Care who used to play AA ball. He was telling me about the season in which he realized he wasn't a Major Leaguer, and decided to quit BB to go to Med school. He said that several people on that team had the same realization that year.

Me: "So how did you know?"

Dr: "A kid named Ken Griffey Jr. showed up. We realized after his first practice that we weren't ball players..."

True story. (Or at least a guy truly told me that story.)