Will HS Baseball Go the Way of HS Soccer?

The topic of whether or not high school baseball will eventually give way to travel baseball is one that's been "kicked around" here a good bit ( Sorry, but I couldn't pass it up.); although, I'm not sure that a parallel to s****r has been drawn all that often.

I fall into the camp of those who believe that travel ball could eventually sap the best players during the high school season. However, the fact that many travel ball coaches have either direct or indirect ties to high school programs seems to work against it.

My personal hope is that high school baseball remains viable and healthy, as I think there's real value in the camaraderie that exists among high school classmates when they can migrate from the classroom to the playing field. Sure, the overall talent level among high school teams tends to be uneven; but, with travel ball available for the balance of the year, so what?

My son's had the good fortune of playing at essentially every level the game offers, and I can tell you with confidence that the friendships he forged on his high school team are among the strongest and most enduring he ever made.

Does it ALL have to be about recruiting? For me, the answer is a resounding"NO."

A related thread from not too long ago...

http://community.hsbaseballweb...el-ball-at-same-time

Fields to play on in the spring is a big barrier. Certainly very few high schools would oblige.

I think HS baseball will get better over time, and be here when our sons are dads - debating on HSBW.

I'm going to join Prepster and have to give another resounding NO.  Unless showcase sanctions (PG, et. al.) beginning offering events that conflict with HS season, I don't see it.  Where would they play?

For the same reasons that Prepster state, I don't think you can replace the camaraderie, school pride, wearing the school colors, etc....just doesn't compare. 

My perspective comes from a little different part than most.  We homeschooled Jr., who is the oldest of 3 kids.  We agreed that HS was not needed to play at the next level, and I was the driving force wanting him homeschooled through HS.  Son really wanted to go to HS, and wife was ok either way.  We decided somewhat begrudgingly to give one year a try.

I had no idea what to expect, however was amazed at what transpired.  He became a part of a family....so much so, that at one point, I wondered whether we were his second family.  Those boys lived and breathed HS baseball for 2 semesters.....and the school pride was something that was not comparable to his previous travel teams.  When the season ended they even cried together, some because their playoff run ended, and some due to the fact that the seniors were done.  I'm not a Facebook guy, but grandma told me she read a post on FB that Jr posted to his teammates, which just about brought a tear to her eyes.

Although I was the one saying, HS baseball is a joke, it doesn't matter, and I hope the lower level doesn't hurt him..... I wound up living and dying with every out, had a new baseball wardrobe of HS colors gear,  and choked up for the seniors when it ended.

I don't think HS baseball is going anywhere, anytime soon.  Now summer ball starts, and we will enjoy all that is unique to that as well!

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but my understanding is that most significant recruiting activity for basketball takes place in AAU tournaments. Does that mean HS basketball is dead or dying? Heck no!  Around here at least the gyms are packed all winter long.  Hundreds of kids come out to cheer on their classmates. Parents of non-players come out as well. It's a great community event.  The players feed off of all that, and they love playing for their schools.  The league championship always sells out at the local JC.  I don't see that dying anytime soon around here, nor do I see HS baseball dying.  

BTW we're in Norcal too. Dunno that much about the boys, but our 8-school high school league has sent at least a dozen girls to D1 schools in the past year or two with s____r scholarships.

One way or the other there will always be HS baseball.  I don't doubt that.  There are still HS soccer teams all over the country right?  The question is whether the top players will come to opt out of HS baseball --  not whether travel would replace HS ball entirely.  That seems sure not to happen.  

To be clear... the girls I was referring to do play HS soccer as well as club and are going on to D1 schools.  And as far as I know most if not all top basketball prospects play HS as well as AAU.

What will kill HS baseball and all HS sports is budget cuts. With the advent of club teams it would be easy for an administration to cut sports rather than ask taxpayers for more money.  

Right.  I would bet that no kid who plays ONLY HS soccer or HS basketball or even HS baseball for that matter has a shot at a D1 scholarship.   But there's a certain inevitable logic to that.  If the kids want to get to the higher level.  If elite club play is the sine qua non of getting to that that higher level,  what exactly will keep them anchored to their HS programs? Not saying there is no answer, but you can see there is a certain inherent pressure.

Soccer has a unique problem in SF bay area, and perhaps in other sections of the country, there is no "defined" soccer season in CA.  Some sections play in the fall, others in the winter and the rest in the spring,  which leads to numerous conflicts when ODP etc tryouts/tournaments come up.  Baseball does not have that problem so its hard for me to see it becoming like soccer in terms of club conflict. 

Not sure I will self proclaim BFS, jr to be a top player, that's for others to judge, however neither he, nor his parents would opt for club over HS.....if he is a top player, he will be welcome on most club teams after HS season is over, and have plenty of time to showcase.

Just helping the great unwashed (including myself) with your post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_qua_non

If that European football trend is sweeping the country, it hasn't reached my state yet.  I'm not sure if we are ahead of the curve or behind it.  The best European football players are still playing (public) high school.  I can't speak to the Private High Schools, but overall I don't see that changing anytime soon for (public) high school baseball either for a lot of reasons.  As jp24 suggests, field access is going to be a problem and high school baseball (public and private) is incredibly popular where I live.  The gentle change of seasons in Virginia allow high school and travel/Legion baseball to feed each other.  It is a symbiotic relationship that seems to work well.  

There are other individual sports where I can see this trend having more legs.  Specifically tennis, golf, gymnastics and swimming.  Personally, I know a handful of tennis players who have thought of foregoing their high school season to attend major tennis events.  In addition, there has been some friction between high school tennis coaches and their best players because they want to practice on their own or with their regular summer coaches.  I don't see this behavior in high school baseball where I live.

The tension I see in our area is that HS coaches are becoming interested in coaching summer travel teams.  Does a player play for the same coach for HS and summer?  If the coach's summer team isn't on the recruiting radar screen, will he lose the most talented HS players?  Doesn't mean HS baseball will go the way of the Dodo bird, but may mean that HS level play may diminish in some school districts.

No

Main difference between soccer and baseball is that MLB isn't yet running anything and probably feels no need to do run anything like baseball academies in this country -- the way MLS does.   MLS is on a mission to improve the level of play in this country -- hence its development academies. 

Here are two recent articles about the impact of the rise of the academies:

http://articles.courant.com/20...eers-academy-program

And this from the NY Times a couple of years ago -- with one  money quote about  the difference between baseball (and basketball)  and soccer  being this:

The United States has been able to produce world-class players in other team sports — like basketball and baseball — using schools as athletic spawning grounds. But national soccer officials have come to the conclusion that having young players split their time between schools and clubs will never produce enough world-class talent needed to compete at the top international level with countries that have had a huge training and cultural advantage. Hence, the decision to force teenagers into making profound choices that can be complicated — and costly — for their families.

The whole article is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/06/sports/soccer/club-soccer-pulls-at-players-ties-to-hometown-teams.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&

I strongly doubt that we will ever be faced with MLB baseball academies (at least not in this country) wanting to take over the training of elite baseball players in this way.

But the  trend toward elite "travel" teams, scout teams,  "college prep" organizations, and the shift in focus of both  mlb and college recruiters  to showcases, national tournaments, etc and away from  HS competition could eventually and indirectly give rise to a similar dynamic -- especially if the training, coaching, competition you  get outside of HS came to vastly exceed what you can get in HS.

Now  I doubt the rise of merely  "local"  travel teams could bring about this result. They are just too uneven in quality, so many are run by guys out to make a quick buck, or organized by parents who overestimate son's playing abilities.  It's not  at all clear that in the aggregate they  produce clearly superior players.    But here in the Bay Area a subtle shift is gradually taking place that involves a bifurcation in the "travel" industry -- an attempt to separate the wheat from the chaff.   Some of the more elite and selective baseball organizations here have  stopped using the word "travel team"  to describe what they offer. They now offer "college prep"  programs -- including a whole range of  services  -- not just team play, but year round structured training. And some of the guys running these type organizations are really plugged in nationally, with connections to colleges and even various MLB  organizations.   So the offer their "placement"  services to you too. 

 So far, it's all perfectly compatible with the HS teams having their day in the sun for a few months.   Nobody has to choose between these organizations and HS.    Indeed,  basically travel ball for 15U and up shuts down during our HS season around here --- thanks to the CIF rules prohibiting  participation in outside (team) competitions during the HS season. 

Long and short.  I doubt baseball will go the way of soccer,  but I do think there is rising pressure on it to become more soccer like.  That's just because as these college prep organizations develop and thrive and have success placing players they will take on the look and feel of the soccer academies more and more.   Or at least they might. 

I have seen a lot of this as well.  If a kid opts to play for a different travel program than his HS coach is involved with, there is a potential issue there with PT retribution and/or with less talented players getting preferential treatment on the HS team because they play for the coach on summer team, or for the program the coach is involved with.  A lot of coaches won't let any conflict of interest impact PT... But there is clearly a potential conflict there.  I know there are rules against coaches working with their HS players during off season in some states.  But even then you still have coaches running club programs, so even though the coach might not be working with the player directly, the same conflict exists potentially.  This isn't unique to baseball... There is a big lawsuit going on in Dallas right now about this with lacrosse* that has gotten a lot of media attention.

*not really a sport 

Here's the story if interested: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/...e-on-lacrosse-field/

Yeah, this is a HUGE big deal in our area too.  

In Texas (aka the best HS baseball state in the country    HS coaches can't coach their own kids outside of the spring season, so that takes care of that issue around here at least. Seems like a good rule to me for a multitude of reasons.

But the lawsuit referenced above is in Dallas.  So seems like  there are ways around the Texas rules.   Similar rules hold here in CA -- the best baseball area in the WORLD  -- but there are ways around it.  

The bulk of, and the best, HS athletics in Texas are public schools governed by the University Interscholastic League.

Lacrosse isn't governed by the UIL (Its a *club sport) and the school referenced is a private school, so the UIL has no say in that either. 

*not really a sport

Nope. You have HS Ball, Club/Travel Ball and Legion Ball. They all have their place.

And I have never heard a coach tell a player to "not play elsewhere". Most coaches I know think the more ABs and reps you get in the field will benefit you in the long run. 

And in the not politically correct department, my sons and I play a game when we are in car called "Another reason to hate soccer"...this would qualify. 

"So what do folks here think.  Might HS baseball eventually go the way of HS soccer -- with the best players opting simply not to play the HS game for the most part?"

It's hard to imagine the best players opting out of HS baseball, and it may not get to this point, but I would say it is definitely heading in this direction.  30 years ago there weren't these other options and HS baseball was the gold standard for competitive baseball, much like HS football is today.  This position has eroded over time, and I think this trend is accelerating.  I'd say HS baseball is now closer to soccer than it is to football in this regard.

While rare, I've seen stories of elite HS players sticking with travel ball in the spring, or refusing to pitch in order to have a fresh arm in the summer.  This was unheard of not too long ago.  The non-HS infrastructure (elite travel ball, showcases, scout ball) is now in place such that HS baseball is no longer essential to play at the next level. 

It's not hard to imagine that some triggering event could cause even further movement in this direction.  For example, in California the CIF precludes any athlete from competing in a club sport during the HS season.  What if this rule was changed, or challenged in court?  What if players could play both HS and travel ball in the spring?  This would likely be the beginning of the end of competitive HS baseball, wouldn't it?  Actually, I'm surprised this issue hasn't come to a head yet.

I think you are on to something Smitty28.  In fact, I expect some parent to sue the CIF eventually.  The thing is the CIF restrictions only applies to outside TEAM events and not outside individual events -- as in diving competitions in which one can enter as an individual.  I can see a suit challenging that as somehow violating equal protection considerations or at least as unfairly prejudicing participants in team sports.   If that happens,  I do think the pressure on HS sports will be enormous at least in CA. 

And I also think you are right that baseball's situation is right now somewhere between the situation of football and the situation of soccer -- with soccer being very extremely tilted.  But again, the thing about soccer is that MLS got involved in this with its academies in a big way.  Don't see MLB doing that.  But the scout teams, college prep organizations,  elite tournaments, etc,  do play something like that same role. 

Yes but not because of upper levels of travel ball.  More and more, schools are losing funding and, at some point, schools have had to make critical decisions.  The HS I coach at lost all HS sports and then the newly created booster club saved some of the sports.  Eventually, they all came back.  However, we face continued state cuts in funding.  We are cutting teachers this year.  We have not purchased textbooks in 10+ years.  Something has to give.  Oh, in case some of you are wondering, I have not had a pay raise in 5 years.  In fact, I've lost due to cuts in benefits.  So, at some point, there will be so many cuts made that top level players will benefit so much more from good TB programs that they will leave.  HS will have perhaps, one team and it might not be all that good.  How long before this happens?  Maybe 10-15 years.  JMHO!

We're in a soccer hot bed in SE PA. I don't know of anyone asked to stop playing high school soccer. FC Delco is one of the top club programs in the country. Their kids are playing high school. Before my son our high school had a U18 Team USA soccer player who was recruuited by Man U. He wasn't pressured to quit high school soccer. He also played basketball. He did miss some games traveling the world. Man U did want him in England as opposed to playing college soccer.

We also had a Team USA Field Hockey player (Team USA in high school) who played for the high school. She also played soccer. She also missed some games traveling the world.

I believe the thing to watch for clues is what becomes of ABCD spring travel baseball in CA. Is it for kids who don't make the high school team or have bad coaches? Of does it become a development league for college and pro prospects?

I believe if there's a sport that leaves the high schools for club, it's football. This may sound sacreligious in certain parts of the country. But schools may walk away from football due to the liability insurance connected to concussions.

From  FC Delco's FAQ

Which teams participate in 10-month programming and do not allow high school participation? 
The entire Academy program does not participate in high school programming. For a complete list of clubs and more information on the 10-month season, click click here.

Seems as though they Academies implemented this policy in 2012.  So it's a recent thing. they say it won't effect HS soccer, because they are only siphoning off the top 1 or 2%.

If it makes anyone feel better, all high school sports are going in this direction except for one. High school football keeps getting bigger every year. All other sports are losing their importance due to off season activities. Name a sport and it is being impacted by travel. Basketball, baseball soccer, softball, volleyball swim, track, etc. You name it and the High School season is greatly diminished in importance. It is my belief that the only thing that slowed it down recently is the fact that the economy crashed and people couldn't afford to travel as much. But things are getting better for the most part and travel is picking up the pace. IMO, all high school sports except for football, will be just like Little League. Fun to play with your friends and represent your school/city, but it will have little impact on if you play after High School.

And this saddens me.

And yet almost every college program that comments on this situation says the same thing: They want players who play high school baseball. 

Unless state associations change the rules about playing club during HS season, I don't it see it changing any time soon.

But it's my understanding that half the states already allow this.   If the Big Three were to allow it -- Florida, Texas, California -- that would probably do it.  The CIF voted against allowing it just this year again.  But the pressure is on. 

Who knows what the future holds. Is it possible that because of budget issues one day HS will simply decide that sports are just not viable? I think as long as the High Schools field sports the players will play them. And as long as there are rules in place that prohibit players from participating on other teams during the HS season, the fields are for the vast majority of areas located at the High Schools I don't see anything changing.

But who knows what the future holds. I agree with Prepster. And I hope I never see this happen.

Have been following along with this thread. A couple of follow ups:

1) I know that the top s****r club teams in Dallas dictate that their players NOT play for HS at all.  They practice after school each weeknight and into the weekends with games etc.  This seems to be specific to just s****r as far as I know.  Some of the other programs will allow players to participate in HS games ONLY, but not practices.  That's if the HS coach will allow this, which I understand many do believe it or not.

2) Someone mentioned that HS football is the most insulated from encroachment by club teams.  But, if looking at the viability of HS sports 10 years down the road, I think football is the most likely sport to be totally gone from the landscape.  That's based 1) on lawsuits from former HS players possibly hitting school districts; and 2) fewer families allowing their kids to participate moving forward.  I have a friend who coaches middle school football and says that his numbers over the past two years have dropped nearly in half.  With the massive rise of 7-on-7 football... Even for recruiting... I can easily see a day when HS football simply becomes 7-on-7 football.  I know that might seem impossible, and no place moreso than my backyard here in Texas where Friday nights are religion... But I really think the clock may be ticking already.  Lacrosse* is more than ready to take over those facilities and step into the Friday night limelight.  If it ever becomes a fall sport, could actually be good news for baseball.

The future of HS sports could get interesting over the next few years.

*not really a sport

Economics is the only real threat to HS baseball.  I hope we never see the day when there is no HS baseball. It would not be good for the game!

The issue isn't whether HS baseball will continue to exist at all.  It definitely will continue to exist in some form.    HS soccer continues to exist.  I doubt that it is in  danger of disappearing,   despite the fact that the MLS sponsored Academies explicitly forbid their players from also playing in HS.

Nothing like that is likely to happen  in baseball, for sure.  Neither MLB nor the college baseball community has any has interest or need to develop and run the equivalent of domestic baseball "academies".

Still,  the emergence and solidification of a whole infrastructure of national competition, elite training, high level evaluation -- which is mostly outside of the HS sports  system -- is rapidly becoming the functional equivalent of the Academy system.   And while it doesn't have the consolidated power of that system because it is so decentralized,   there seems to me a strong possibility that it could eventual simply draw the cream of the HS crop away from the HS game entirely.  The HS game would go on, but it would be significantly diminished in certain ways.