Will "The Thrill" Clark!!!

Flip,

My college coach was at MSU while Will and Raffy were there. I was fortunate to talk hitting with Will on several occasions.

He talked about pulling batting practice type FBs foul early in the game so he would get them late in the game.

I loved watching him hit.

I agree he was a lot of fun to watch.

Maybe the most linear hitter I've seen make the big leagues.

Poor hip rotation.

Hip slide/weight shift only.

Swing path out of shoulder plane.

Downward swing arc.

Linear hand path.

But, had a very good career.

I hate you redbird!!!!

Jason

Coach Peavy would call that full transfer hitting. It looked like it went a long way too

Thanks for what you do for the sites Jason....you too Sandman. We all benefit from your guys I.T. knowledge that you share willingly

Will Clark was one of the most amazingly consistent hitters in baseball for a long time. Watching the clips sure does reveal some interesting things. I didn't remember him staying that closed.

He starts closed and strides more closed ..hits the ball out front. His hands are hidden all the time . G Brett like with more upright

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Maybe the most linear hitter I've seen make the big leagues.

Poor hip rotation.

Hip slide/weight shift only.

Swing path out of shoulder plane.

Downward swing arc.

Linear hand path.

But, had a very good career.

OK, nobody would bite.

So, I'll get something started.

The .gif that is playing shows almost completely different mechanics than the links.

The .gif is very linear. Long stride to a more open foot. Linear hand path, swing plane does not match shoulder turn plane, linear weight shift poor hip rotation. etc etc.

But, the links show him striding to a closed front foot, much more rotational, swing plane matches shoulder turn plane. Better front leg involvement.

.gif is dated 1989. He's almost upright in this swing. With no bend at the waist the only place he can be rotational is on a pitch at the letters. So, he's upright, pitch is low, without posture adjustments he has to disconnnect.

Other dates vary from 1987 - 1989. Much more bend at the waist.

Intersting. Much better/different posture in the links.

I'll nibble. In the gif in the original post, there is a lot of forward head movement, but in the side view 1987 HR, the head hardly moves at all (postion your cursor on his head in both clips, and you'll see what I mean). Amazing he was able to track a pitch with that much head movement.

I don't see the same thing. Watch his head in relation to the crowd. Moves a good distance in both clips.

You are being fooled by the camera movement. Watch the left side of the picture and see how much the camera moves. At the end you see alot more of the dugout than you could at the beginning.

Always was a long strider.

quote:

without posture adjustments he has to disconnnect.

where do you see disconnect? splain

In the animated gif, the swing plane and the shoulder turn plane are not the same or parallel. This is one form of disconnection.

The bat is not getting the full benefit of energy created by the shoulder rotation because the arms are taking the bat in a different direction than what the shoulders are turning.

They are working against each other instead of with each other.

With a bend at the waist posture, he can make the swing plane and the shoulder turn plane the same.

Small adjustments in the tilt of your spine (inch or so) makes large adjustments in the bat.

So, to get to the various pitch heights and locations make a spinal tilt adjustment versus an arm adjustment.

With his upright posture in the .gif, he can only hit a letter high pitch and keep his swing and shoulders in the same plane.

Maybe he just made one hell of an adjustment with his arms on this swing. The others indicate he has better posture.

My question is why did he lose so much of his bend this time and not all the others.

Shoulder turn plane = \ (this is too steep but it's all my keyboard can do; change it to approx a 45 degree angle. This represents the edge of a disk that is perpendicular to the spine. The top of this, >, is closer to the proper angle of his shoulder turn plane.

Swing plane = / (again, a little too steep but not much). This represents the edge of his swing plane. Maybe the top of this, <, is closer to his swing plane.

Both should be \\.

He starts the swing off pretty good, but when those arms extend he changes the swing plane. Linear arm movement and it disconnects them from the power source. Shoulders going one way, arms another.

If he'd have tilted over more, he could have gotten to this ball and kept his arms in the same plane as the power supply.

quote:

He starts the swing off pretty good, but when those arms extend he changes the swing plane. Linear arm movement and it disconnects them from the power source. Shoulders going one way, arms another

I understand the swing plane being perp to spine. I did not notice his arms going long. But now that you pointed it out I see it. I did not know that was a form of disconnect

I do notice at practice when I say "posture " the ball goes much harder.

About my typos and missing words... its an ADD symptom. I don't balance my check book either.

My school teachers didn't like it either

Thanks

Thanks for posting these - always loved to watch the thrill...

BTW - yes that is his first career home run in the first clip - off of Nolan Ryan no less...

All the analysis in the world, whether you like his swing plane, stance, where his head goes, his rotation or the asjustments he made with his hands doesn't change the fact that he hit 303 in a long MLB career. He had TALENT, which supercedes any mechanical "flaw" you might point out.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
All the analysis in the world, whether you like his swing plane, stance, where his head goes, his rotation or the asjustments he made with his hands doesn't change the fact that he hit 303 in a long MLB career. He had TALENT, which supercedes any mechanical "flaw" you might point out.

Obvious..... The point of the analysis is to understand this swing, not denegrate Clark.

It also makes someone who has no clue feel better about having no clue.

No clue - everyone's got an opinion. That's ok.

I was making a point that talent overcomes flaws.

Now go back and buzz phrase away.

Baseballdad1228, this is a discussion on mechanics, not a critique of the hitter. No one is implying that Will Clark was not a great hitter, just discussing the way he swings the bat.

My two cents are that you don't see weight-shifters like him any more (maybe Sean Casey?), and it's for the better. For every Will Clark, there were hundreds of guys who were held back trying to "shift into their firm front side" and all the other Lau stuff taught in the 80's and early 90's. That move makes it harder to swing the bat and does not supply more power.

The easiest way is to keep the center of gravity in place and rotate, not shift it forward.

Level,

I understand what you're saying. I played in the White Sox organization in the mid-1980s that was a pure Lau follower. Positive move toward the pitcher, weight back, shift...the Lau process. I do not dispute that rotational hitting is the better way.

Simply, Clark was a career .303 hitter. His talent overcame any flaws in the swing you or anyone else see in the videos. The mark of a great athlete (or hitter) is the ability to adjust. Clark had that ability.

quote:

The easiest way is to keep the center of gravity in place and rotate, not shift it forward

Might not be entirely accurate looking at the dragging rear toes of many great hitters

http://www.beabetterhitter.com/text/batspeed/coiling/coiling.htm

Lets ask ourselves, Did he hit? How about in this clip? He was a great hitter that knew how to adjust to different pitches and situations. We can load scapula's all day long. The end result must be contact and eventually with some consistency. Clark got it done, and that certainly throws a wrench into all the Techno-Jargon.

Ready, fire, aim.

Swingbuster,

Forget the toes, what about the center? Pujols can "drag his toes" and keep his center in place.

Or, better yet, measure the head movement. Clark's head moves forward several inches from the time he puts his front foot down until he makes contact. Most MLB hitters hold their head virtually in place during this phase. Epstein's "pole through the head" analogy is a fitting description.

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Chipper01.mpeg

This Chipper Jones clips is a good representation of this.

The forward momentum during the swing demonstrated by Clark is increasingly rare in MLB (OK, Ichiro).

level,

without weight shift chipper would have reverse pivoted. Please look again and see the marked weight shift

I have coached and done it both ways. I am putting weight shift back into no striders now. THere are ways to do it.

I can tell a kid to rotate and make sure he takes the knob past the lead hip before he releases the bat and he shifts his weight and never thinks about the weight shift.

quote:

Forget the toes, what about the center? Pujols can "drag his toes" and keep his center in place.

Not without weight shift. Think you better look at your clip of chipper again...marked weight shift

Linear ..who needs Viagra with a thread like this brewing?

quote:

Originally posted by LevelPath19:
...and keep his center in place...

I need this defined before I get involved.

My center is always my center. Wherever it is.

Explain "in place".

In the clip of Pujols: the center remains in center like "stick in a carousel horse"; comes forward by turning without sliding center mass

In the clips of Hank Aaron: the center does "slide" center forward in the forward turn even though he does bring body mass forward by turning.

These are the best examples I currently have but working on getting top 2006 prospects on here soon.

Shep

http://home.comcast.net/~karla.mcnurlin/2b1b.gif

coil, front side pulls into rotation

the center moves here too...the rear toe drags here too

Excellent example Swing but if you will notice the center doesn't really slide forward but remains centered in finish>Rocks back a little from extension to finish.

Trying to get 6clip Barry Bonds posted here a few weeks ago which also illustrates this optical illusion.

Shep

If you have Bonds sequence go back and take a peak>
Notice 1st and 6th clip>compare the two and pick out something in stands in background of each and tell me the center changes. IMHO it doesn't but does appear to change in middle clips but not in finish or last clip.
Shep

You can also do the same thing in Pujols footage.

Pick out something in background at beginning and end of Pujols' swing and you will see the carousel I spoke of staying in the "center-of-the-horse".
Shep

quote:

Not without weight shift. Think you better look at your clip of chipper again...marked weight shift

Not after foot plant...After the front foot is planted there is no forward momentum of the center. Will Clark has nearly a foot of forward momentum after foot plant.

Of course there is weight shift during stride, I never insisted that there wasn't.

Let's try this: http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Rose.mpeg

The "R" on his jersey rotates backwards at the same rate the "E" turns forward. There is a point, near where his hair touches his neck, that doesn't move...much the same way a steering wheel rotates around a centerpoint.

Will Clark would move that center towards the pitcher as the bat is in motion towards the ball...

quote:

Not after foot plant...After the front foot is planted there is no forward momentum of the center. Will Clark has nearly a foot of forward momentum after foot plant.

Agreed , I participated in this for one reason. It is relatively easy to teach a purely rotational swing . It is also relatively hard to teach it with weight shift.

****** teaching weigh shift is hard to do with lower body cues and that is why I failed at it for so long...there...I am not a know it all

I gave what I believe to be a valuable tip. I find it hard to get a kid to load, shift, rotate. Sounds easy by operationalizing it is not.

The shift in baseball and golf is teachable when the player trys to

1. move the ( whole rotating shoulder unit / box) forward before release. The player will shift almost unconsciencely to meet that upper body goal.

or

2. rotate the shoulders until the hand position( pulling the knob ) is past the lead hip before releasing the 90 degree wrist angle( you will see this in CHippers clip too if you look).

This cue will " bring the mass forward while turning" even if they have no clue what that means and they don't. But players that already know somewhat how to rotate pick this up quickly.

You should shift( as your shoulders turn) to a point of release not shift and then turn and hit. Weight transfer as a term means more to me than stride and I know that is hard to understand until you see kids move the front foot only to hit and have absolutely no weight transfer.

Teaching good rotation is important but, our love affair with pointing out pure rotation can leave some holes in the hitting equation.

I had a good player do the drill (2) off of a tee yesterday and this senior SS 178 lbs took that cue in the cage and hit back to back 340 foot HRs. First of two weeks practicing as he was staying centered and just turning...he had poor power relative to his ability.

The finer points will mean something as these kids get older

thanks to Coach Preston Peavy..

www.peavynet.com

he just quietly teaches players of all ages how to crush the ball

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
In the clip of Pujols: the center remains in center like "stick in a carousel horse"; comes forward by turning without sliding center mass

In the clips of Hank Aaron: the center does "slide" center forward in the forward turn even though he does bring body mass forward by turning.

These are the best examples I currently have but working on getting top 2006 prospects on here soon.

Shep

Could this be a description of a hitter who rotates his hips w/ the spine as center of rotation verses a hitter who rotates his hips with the front hip socket as the center of rotation?

GFK

Your description sounds like a good analysis of what I am saying in the previous posts.

Swing

That clip of AP does not do him any justice even if it was a HR. Not to mention the pitcher was probably only throwing mid 80s

Think that fellow in east Texas is on the right track here...Apologize to posters for changing thread topic, Will Clark, to include several others, but what better players to analyze than Hank and Albert????

Just got back from very high profile HS game with no less than 50 MLB Front Office personnel scouts and Will the deal was topic of one brief side story brought up by another "Director" in a small group of us

Simply amazing but not as much as one middle-age catcher who has the whole scouting world sold on the fact that he knows what he is talking about here in these threads.

Does anybody know who Shep is talking about???

Go to catcher's thread if you don't and view/read and learn.

"It's Linear"

Couldn't help but to give you a plug here Linear since several scouts who visit this site incognito saw the clips in the catchers thread last night and this morning, one who I talk with frequently who I told about this site was as amazed as I was. Evidently, your stock in analysis has risen considerably and the scouts who visit here are going to be "baring down" on everything that comes from those fingertips from now on so you better be on your "P's and Q's" LOL-Shep

My price is going up.

What's been free will now cost a soda.

And maybe an occasional ticket.