Work ethics, attitude in a player

I can see that happening with 1st year jv tryout players... they might not know about them, but players trying out for varsity juniors/seniors should definitely be working out! At least once a week so the coaches see them. Maybe some are busy with other winter sports? My 2 cents worth.

quote:

I am surprised to see that some kids trying out for Varsity level HS baseball (any level of HS ball) that don't bother to show up for alot of the pre season workouts.

How are you seeing it happen? Are you hanging out at the workouts?

no, of course not. Does it matter how I know that some kids just choose not to go. Do I care, not really, I am just surprised by it is all. Maybe I did something wrong by posting this?

The bottom line is simple--the kids who want it work harder--HS baseball is where the dead wood drops out- HS baseball is more than just a social event

Thanks TR

I guess I was just thinking out loud, and just wanted to know what others thought or have observed themselves. I don't hang out at workouts or practices and try hard to be a good & repsonsible baseball parent!

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballGr8:
no, of course not. Does it matter how I know that some kids just choose not to go. Do I care, not really, I am just surprised by it is all. Maybe I did something wrong by posting this?

It just doesn't seem like a topic a parent would be informed. I'll ask my son "How was practice?" Sometimes I get a grunt. It's practice. He might mention a relevant comment a coach made to him. He might mention an incident. The only mention he's made of a player missing workouts is a player who was in a lot of trouble last year over attitude. I know he's not looking around taking inventory. He's there to do his work. He doesn't care (and neither do I) if the less talented players don't get it what high school ball is all about. He won't be playing with these guys.

BaseballGR8

Let me give you an example from a few years back when my guys were playing HS ball

During the offseason a few of us dads got access to the armory in town during the weeknites and weeknds and set up mounds and batting cages---we took turns with at least two dads monitoring the activity---it was open to any resident of the town , free of charge, and the only kids who showed up regularly especially at the HS level were the kids who wanted it---not only was it a workout but instruction was involved

And then parents wonder and complain why their kid sits on the bench--sorry folks it takes that extra effort on the part of both the kids and the parents---a starting spot just does not happen--it is earned

Sorry I feel I've done something wrong here. Guess I need to take a step back. I'm not perfect myself, just happened to know something and was surprised by it. I too get a grunt when I ask about practice, and am working real hard on not asking too many questions after practice. Maybe I should just go back to lurking.

It's a fair question and you have said nothing wrong. There are legitimate reasons for missing however. Multi-sport athletes including basketball players and wrestlers are often exempted from participation. For those that have no such legitimate excuse, their desire will catch up to them.

This pattern continues at the college and the pro level believe it or not. If you can convince your son to out "blue-collar" the other guys, it can become a real advantage for them. Over time, outworking the other guys turns into a talent advantage for the hard-working player.

Hi all, I can only speak for my sons situation. He is a junior varsity player and struggles to get to very many of the pre-season morning hitting sessions. He has gone to a couple, but then wonders why he bothered.

His schedule is such that he is working out out 3 -4 days per week, Hitting 2 days per week, long toss 2 days per week, bullpens 2 days per week that on top of 4 honors classes and 2 AP classes. Who has time to get up at 5:30 two mornings a week to get to school an hour early to take 20-30 swings.

Call it what you want, I call it priorities.

Everyone situation is different, but to suggest that someone is not working hard or doing all they can to get better because they don't go to all of the schools pre-season voluntary workouts is being blind to the alternatives that some players take advantage.

I suggest that my son, like many others, are doing more than any of the kids that go.

Regards, Mike

Aside from a new player not being aware of the workouts which isn't uncommon, there were players like my son who were already on the baseball team but also lettered in a winter sport which overlapped with conditioning days so he could not attend the pre-season workouts. The winter varsity coach didn't want my son worrying about baseball yet and the baseball coach knew who those players were and they also knew when the winter season ended so they knew when to expect to see those players in the gym on a regular basis.

There are legitimate resons why some players don't show up for all the pre-season workouts.

To clarify, the above post, my son is junior who is a varsity player.. :-)

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballGr8:
Sorry I feel I've done something wrong here. Guess I need to take a step back. I'm not perfect myself, just happened to know something and was surprised by it. I too get a grunt when I ask about practice, and am working real hard on not asking too many questions after practice. Maybe I should just go back to lurking.

Don't be sensitive. Participate. You opened a quality discussion. In responses you're going to see multiple views to a scenario. A response you might feel is directed at you and not accurate in your circumstances may help another parent in their approach.

Mike

You have a PM

I think it was a valid question. What is the big deal if he was at the workout or maybe he knows the ones running it?

In my son's case I am at his optional workouts (which are indoors obviously seeing I live in New England)every week. They are held on sundays at 11am and are located 1/2 hour from home. I drive my son and a couple of other freshman to the workouts. I do not go in (I don't leave my car...I actually sit and watch dvd's on my portable dvd player while I wait the hour they are in the facility) but I do see who shows up for the workouts. In the case of my son's school the majority of the top players do show up at the workouts.

Does this make me a bad dad for taking my son and other players to the workouts and then taking them home? I don't think so...yet like the OP I knew who was going or not....

I wasn't implying that all kids that don't show up aren't working hard, or that they didn't have a legitimate reason for not being there. I never said anything like that. I was referring to the kids that just choose not to go. Apparently the fact that I even know that some kids sometimes just choose not to show up, makes me too informed of a parent? Honestly I didn't think asking a question about why some kids choose not to go was wrong. Sorry, but I have observed some very talented kids that don't want to work hard, and still expect to play. That does not mean that I think that all kids that sometimes don't make a practice or workout isn't working hard. In fact, the majority of them do work very hard.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Galvin:
Hi all, I can only speak for my sons situation. He is a junior varsity player and struggles to get to very many of the pre-season morning hitting sessions. He has gone to a couple, but then wonders why he bothered.

His schedule is such that he is working out out 3 -4 days per week, Hitting 2 days per week, long toss 2 days per week, bullpens 2 days per week that on top of 4 honors classes and 2 AP classes. Who has time to get up at 5:30 two mornings a week to get to school an hour early to take 20-30 swings.

Call it what you want, I call it priorities.

Everyone situation is different, but to suggest that someone is not working hard or doing all they can to get better because they don't go to all of the schools pre-season voluntary workouts is being blind to the alternatives that some players take advantage.

I suggest that my son, like many others, are doing more than any of the kids that go.

Regards, Mike

It depends on priorities and time management. When my son was a freshman he was hell bent on being the first freshman to make varsity. He also played freshman basketball. While freshmen don't take AP courses he was in the gifted program. He found his way to the two 5:30am workouts and the 7:30pm workout.** He missed the two afternoon workouts.

He was the last cut from varsity. But he put himself in the center of the radar screen. In the fall of soph year he played fall ball for the high school coach in addition to varsity s****r. He missed all the practices but worked out on his own with me. He became the first opening day soph baseball starter in six years.

His social life suffered freshman year. But he had two priorities that were important, grades and making varsity baseball as soon as possible. He solved part of the problem soph year by not playing basketball.

** so happy he has his license now

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Galvin:
To clarify, the above post, my son is junior who is a varsity player.. :-)

Now you go changing the rules of engagement! My response is still valid to your original story.

Since my son is on varsity if he can't make a workout (4 AP and 2 gifted courses) he emails the coach ahead of time. The coach knows he's also working out every week with a pitching coach and his showcase team.

A kid who hasn't made the next level whether it's freshman, JV or varsity or hasn't earned a starting position shouldn't even dream of missing "voluntary" off season workouts.

quote:

Aside from a new player not being aware of the workouts which isn't uncommon

Shouldn't a player entering high school be responsible to make himself aware of everything involving the program?

TR, you have a PM

Exactly RJM. The point is, everyones situation and even motivation is different. I noted our case previously as you did yours and they are both perfectly reasonable positions depending on your personal situation.

I'm sure there are a host of valid reasons as too why someone can/cannot or does/doesn't go.

If nothing else, it's an interesting topic to hear others situations.

Regards, Mike

The key is to inform the coach if you cannot make the workouts so he knows the situation instread of thinking you are blowing it off

Look, this topic is near and dear to my heart. My son has built his whole career around attitude and work ethic. Sometimes I think the blue-collar stuff works against him (perception wise) as I think some scouts think he has maxed out his abilities but I know he also has much talent and upside to his game as well. I wish I had 1/10 the desire and passion as he does so I take no credit for him.

Here was a really nice article that ran on him a few days before his college career ended last May. It captures his essence very well. I am not looking for compliments or kudos but I am sharing it so hopfully it can benefit one of your sons. Notice that he talks about working even when the coaches are not looking. It goes beyond the topic of this thread.

quote:

Thursday, May. 28, 2009
Bortnick's heart set on taking Coastal Carolina to College World Series

By Josh Hoke - jhoke@thesunnews.com

CONWAY -- After motoring around the bases and sliding head first into home plate for an inside-the-park home run at last week's Big South Baseball Championship, Tyler Bortnick jumped up, pumped his fist and let out a yell.

It was a rare moment of flash during a career built on substance.

Coastal Carolina coach Gary Gilmore has molded his program with players many of them a little too small or a little too slow who share his blue-collar principles. Bortnick, the team's 5-foot-10, 175-pound senior third baseman, may epitomize that mold better than any other player in Gilmore's 14 years as head coach.

"He wills himself to be the best player on our team," Gilmore said. "Whatever he weighs, a large portion of it is in his heart. We're going to miss what he brings to us in passion and desire far more than what we'll miss in ability, even though he's a great player."

Bortnick is the unquestioned heart and soul of this year's Chanticleers. Players like David Anderson, Cody Wheeler and Nick McCully have more star power, but Bortnick's desire to lead his team to Omaha is unrivaled even on the coaching staff, a point that Gilmore made on Senior Day two weeks ago.

His desire to reach the College World Series is why he has willingly changed positions twice since his junior season ended.

After playing both third base and shortstop as a freshman in 2006, Bortnick started all but one game at shortstop in 2007 and 2008. But he moved to second this year, allowing talented freshman Taylor Motter to fill his shoes, and then moved to third after Scott Woodward was injured midway through the season.

"I'm here to do whatever it takes to get this team to Omaha," said Bortnick, whose team begins its quest against Kansas today in the NCAA Chapel Hill (N.C.) Regional. "If it means I've got to play short, third, second or catcher, it doesn't matter. As long as it puts the best nine out there, I'm all for it.

"And I like being that utility guy, being able to play here and play there. Hopefully that gives me a better chance to get on the field at the next level."

Bortnick has been an integral part of the cause this season, morphing himself from a role player into one of the team's most consistent hitters.

He is batting .374 with 11 home runs and 44 RBIs, all career highs since he became a regular starter as a sophomore. Now batting cleanup, Bortnick's production at the plate has helped protect Anderson, who bats third behind Rico Noel and Adam Rice.

He spent hours upon hours many of them by himself honing his swing in Coastal's batting cages.

"The way you get better is when no one else is watching," said Bortnick, who models his game after a player with similar intangibles, Boston's Dustin Pedroia. "You can do all you want for the coaches and let them see what you do, but the only way you'll really get better is when you're out there on your own."

Though his Coastal career will end after the Chants' final postseason game this season, Bortnick's work ethic and competitiveness have left an indelible mark on Gilmore's youth-laden roster.

"He works hard every day," Motter said. "He's the hardest worker on this team. He loves the game. He loves winning. He wants this program to win a national championship more than anybody in the world."

From RJM ** so happy he has his license now[/QUOTE]


This may be one of the most truthful statements made by a high scho0l parent.

At our school off season conditioning was optional. Most of the baseball team are 2 sport players, those that played football, did the football work outs through out the winter. Actual throwing, hitting and other work was up to the individual. The coaches all knew how was working out and who was not.

Now, I await warm weather for the indoor work outs and 5:00 AM practice to stop so I don't have to get up at 4 to make sure 2012 is up. At least he drives himself now.

My favorite players are the ones when asked to run through a wall don't ask why. They ask were should the hole be and how big.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Shouldn't a player entering high school be responsible to make himself aware of everything involving the program?

In a perfect world they should but it's not unusual for this to happen to freshman. Sometimes, it's a case of not knowing who to ask what and maybe not everything that goes on is posted and they don't always find out until they show up the first day and settle into the program.

By sophomore year, these kinks are all worked out.

Thanks for posting and sharing your story ClevelandDad! That was a great article about your son. You know he is going to be successful in life, no matter where he goes.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Shouldn't a player entering high school be responsible to make himself aware of everything involving the program?

In a perfect world they should but it's not unusual for this to happen to freshman. Sometimes, it's a case of not knowing who to ask what and maybe not everything that goes on is posted and they don't always find out until they show up the first day and settle into the program.

By sophomore year, these kinks are all worked out.

First day of school: Go into school office. Who is the baseball coach? Where is his classroom? What is his phone number or email address?

Second day of school: Hello coach. I'm Billy Smith. I want to play baseball for you. What do I need to know?

How hard is this? If a kid doesn't know something it's his fault or he doesn't want it badly enough.

quote:

How hard is this? If a kid doesn't know something it's his fault or he doesn't want it badly enough.

I completely agree with you.

quote:

First day of school: Go into school office. Who is the baseball coach? Where is his classroom? What is his phone number or email address?

Second day of school: Hello coach. I'm Billy Smith. I want to play baseball for you. What do I need to know?

How hard is this? If a kid doesn't know something it's his fault or he doesn't want it badly enough.

I agree. Again, in a perfect world, that's how it should go but probably more often than not, it probably doesn't.

This should all start in the home !!!

It's definitely not a perfect world, nor am I perfect.
I do believe it is up to the individuals to be personally responsible for what they know and to find out what they need to know (if that makes sense). To be sure they are where they should be. Yup, there are exceptions sometimes, things do happen.

Here is a quote I found that I always liked:
"If you're not practicing, somebody else is, somewhere & he'll be ready to take your job." - Brooks Robinson

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
This should all start in the home !!!

At the high school level it's amazing how many parents can be clueless. One year I was driving down the street of the high school. Due to mud they were holding softball tryouts on the middle school field which was visible from the street. I stopped to say hello to a dad I hadn't seen since travel ball the previous summer (despite the pained look on my daughter's face I had invaded her turf).

At the beginning of the tryout a mother was bragging on her daughter being a LL softball all-star. She expected her daughter to make varsity. About fifteen minutes in she was shocked how poorly her daughter looked compared to other players. She wanted to know where all these great players were playing if not for the LL.

Eight of the nine starters had already played 18U showcase ball. The ninth played 16U as an 8th grader. Five juniors had already verballed. The senior was signed. The team was two time defending conference champion. There was one open position expected to be secured (and was) by the incoming freshman already playing 16U.

Mine chose not to participate in the fall workouts with his HS team because he had a better workout. He always did the HS conditioning before this year. But he had specific goals to meet before PG Underclassmen, and he was working with a minor league player who could help him reach those goals. The HS team's workout consisted essentially of calisthenics and jogging around the field, and that just wasn't going to cut it. He did participate in the HS workouts for the two weeks before tryouts. He's also an established varsity player.

His schedule right now looks like this: eat breakfast, go to school (honors & AP classes - made straight A's last semester), eat breakfast #2, eat lunch, eat lunch #2, practice or game, go to the gym on non-game days (his personal program - 4 days a week), come home, eat dinner, do homework, eat dinner #2, go to bed. Start all over. A slacker. Not!

CD, that was a great article!

To the earlier discussion regarding players that don’t seem to put in the effort:

Let me start by saying this comment isn’t directed at anyone in particular so please don’t be offended but sometimes when I read comments saying “my son works harder than anyone else, he should get a chance to play over a player that doesn’t put in the time”, I have to ask why? Where does it say the amount of time spent preparing is more important than the actual results? (Again, no one that I know of in this tread said as such however we have all seen it implied in other threads)

I agree if the two players are at equal levels of play then I’d give the nod to the one that shows the most dedication and work ethic. However after it’s all said and done if player “A” does the least amount of “extra” work but he is still a better player, why should he be penalized because player “B” puts in more time trying to reach player “A’s” level?

To me it’s much like when one of my staff members tells me how late they worked to meet a goal or deadline. It’s like they are saying “look at me, I’m working really hard”. To be honest I’m not really that impressed that they were putting in so much extra time. I’d much rather have someone that gets his/her work done and is able to enjoy a more balanced life by leaving at a reasonable hour. I’m not hiring people to just work hard; I hire people to get results.

Now with that being said I do see players that have so much talent that you know with a little more effort they could go to even higher levels but they just don't push themselves. As frustrating as it may be to others it doesn't mean they aren't one of the best on the team, you just wonder what they could have done if they put in as much effort as some of the guys with less talent? (That’s probably a different discussion topic by itself)

I was listening to ESPN this morning and they were talking about the record setting contract that Julius Peppers just signed with the Bears. A couple players on his old team commented as good as Peppers is now, they wondered how good Peppers could be if he really loved the game?

I agree with you jd, putting in the time shouldn't automatically mean you get to play over the player that didn't put in as much. I think that it is only part of the equation.

Time(as in practice) = good?
Talent = really good?
Talent + Time = really really good??

This is just my opinion of course, with lots more to the equation. Just putting it simply in a way that sounds good to me. Maybe I spend too much time thinking about baseball? I don't know, probably. I do love it though and am so looking forward to this spring! Now, just got to get rid of the rest of the snow!

quote:

.... sometimes when I read comments saying “my son works harder than anyone else, he should get a chance to play over a player that doesn’t put in the time”, I have to ask why? Where does it say the amount of time spent preparing is more important than the actual results?

Working hard is great. But never confuse activity with results.

- a Regional VP I worked under in my 20's

It is not the amount of time spent but how you spent it !!!

CD-I know you weren't looking for Kudos on your son, but you have to be proud, because that was a very nice article!

As far as the work ethics go, my son works out with a trainer four days a week during the high school "off season", June-March. It's basically plyometrics and core strength, and he add's some additional baseball related strength conditioning as well. He occasionally visits with a hitting instructor to stay on track. And he hits in the garage off the tee four to five days a week during the season and off season on his own (except for the six weeks a year he takes off to rest). So, he has a very good work ethic without the additional "off season" workouts with his high school team. However, he chose to work out with his buddies at school too. The more time he spends with his teammates during the "off season", the better the Team will Gel during the Season, IMHO. It's not a big surprise that most of the kids putting in the extra work, are the same kids that seem to rise to the top. It's still very early, but his team is 3-0...and you can see all the hard work paying off for the boys!

Jersey Dad great post and pretty much sums up what I was thinking reading through this thread. Talent has to play even if they don't work as hard as the other guy. But it doesn't mean the hard worker can't get first shot at losing the position.

Let me throw this at some of you as sort of a devil's advocate, let me challenge some thinking a little bit. Some of you have said your sons don't do the same workouts as the rest of the team because you have better ones. Let me throw this at you from a coaches perspective - having your own workout can be detrimental to your sons making the team if they are new or it's a new head coach that doesn't know the guys.

Let's say I'm hired as your school's baseball coach and obviously I don't know any of you or your son's. Over the course of the school year I find out your son played last year and was pretty good. I'm holding these workouts and your son isn't at them because he's doing his own thing. Now I'm thinking "what kind of kid is this? Is he a team player or is he all about me? Will he buck me when I try to teach him a certain way to do a bunt defense by saying here is another way to run it?" Let's say your son comes up to me and introduces himself and explains he's got his own workout and been doing it for years. Still I got the same thougths but now I can add Eddie Haskell to my list of concerns.

But I got this other kid who comes to everything I put on and he works his rear end off. I get to know him and I discover he's the real deal and not an Eddie Haskell. I know this kid and what he's capable of but I really don't know your kid.

Tryouts approach and honestly your kid might already be a few steps behind the hard worker and he's got ground to make up. Your son may have to set the world on fire to make the team.

Now this doesn't include the guys who play other sports because I know where they are and what they are doing. This is probably for the baseball only kids. Just some food for thought and an idea to hash out. I'm going to see if this generates some discussion before I put what I think and would do.

RJM I totally agree on what you said about HS aged kids should be responsible but no offense it's so far from the truth it's scary. I truly wish I teach / coach kids like yours and others on this board. It would make my job easier and more enjoyable but the reality of the situation is that most people are ignorant of what's going on.

Some parents are ignorant but want to know. They have no idea how to get their promoted for baseball (sorta like the softball mom you talked about). They want their son to do the right thing but have no idea what the right things are - talk to the coach, introduce self and find out about workouts and what not. You can teach these most of these people of how things are.

The other group is ignorant because they just aren't that smart. They have no idea what to do and have no desire to learn what to do. These types usually give you the most pain.

Example - my homeroom today got extended time because we had to go over our curriculum guides. I have a freshman homeroom and these guides explain everything our district does academically - from the path(s) you have to take to get what degree (college prep, vocational, special ed). This book is full of information that is going to help these kids register for the correct classes as they move through high school. They needed to take this book home and sit down with their parents to work out their plan to get through our school. After class was over out of 22 kids 8 left their curriculum guide on their desk and one threw theirs away in the trash. A large number just came out and said they weren't going to show their parents the book because they didn't care. These will be the same kids that will be thrown into a class because they have to have one and gripe / complain because it's not the class they wanted. Well it was their fault their schedule got screwed up but they will never realize this.