Worth the Effort?

Justbaseball...

It seems to me that development is really divided into two phases...childhood and young adulthood...with puberty being the passage between the two.

In childhood, little humans need freedom to grow, explore, and experience in order to discover their gifts and how they can use them. They need discipline and direction, but they also need time to play...to pretend adult activities in safe environments. IMHO when it comes to baseball they need to learn the skills and rules to play the game, but they also need to be free of anything that would make them afraid to take risks and experience failure. To me, an ideal team would be one that truely sees every child as equal in value no matter how they perform. In this environment every child could try new things and fail without any sense of failure...even the most gifted player. I believe Little League was set up with this in mind.

In contrast, when a child begins to enter the adult world he naturally wants to find out where his gifts fit in the bigger picture. Competition and risks help him define his direction. The child who is pushed to perform instead of play before puberty, may never develop the confidence needed to compete and take risks after puberty.

Just my opinion.

At some point in the process, your son will be required to have the ability to have the bat speed to hit 90 plus, while knowing the shuunto can come anytime.

Those who do it 3/10 are the ONES.

It is that simple

Old Slugger...

If only it were that simple!

Not only do you have to have the ability to hit a 90mph fastball and anything else thrown at you 3/10 times...you have to believe you can do it or it won't happen.

TPM,

Help me understand your position on all this....

"I also was one of those who sent son to play local LL with local travel only and nothing major until he reached HS. I have in the past taken a stance against big time travel for those under HS age."

"We just felt that before HS, there was no need to be seen at showcases, out of state travel tournaments."

I agree ...no need to attend showcases before HS (Are there any? Im truely not sure).

I am just trying to understand, are you saying that local coaching & instruction is sufficient until HS, and then exactly what...? begin lessons with a hitting/pitching instructor at that point? OR leave it up to the HS program to prepare the player for post HS ball?

I think one thing you really have to factor into this is where you live. Your living in a hot bed of baseball programs there.
You could put together a good team locally i'm sure. That team could then play against some of the best teams in the country with out leaving your state. If I recall correctly, there are also a lot of tournaments (USSSA\AAU and other ones that you could enter) in your state. The closest thing to us is Triple Crown Sports in Branford, CT for those kinds of events.

Im pretty sure the level of instruction & coaching in your local leagues is far superior to what we have here locally. Also your state is a haven for baseball people. Many MLB teams have spring training complexes there. Many JUCO schools exist there that take some of the top level HS talent each year. These guys are there so they can be seen by college and pro level organizations. You do not have to travel any great distance "to be seen".

I wish we had that luxury here in NH, but it simply is not the case here. 20Dad posted his experiences here on this thread. I truely wish that he and the other gentlemen that were involved in that AAU team had continued working it. The fact of the matter is he & a few of the dads of the top talent in the NH seacoast area put together a team of the cream of the crop here and after their boys were done, the team ceased to exist.

They built the team because there was no higher level program in our immediate area and they did not want to pay out the monies that the existing NH AAU programs were asking for. Some of the boys on the team were already recieving instruction from paid instructors.

I can't blame them for disbanding the team when their kids were done (They went to watch their boys play Legion or other baseball.), but when
that team was gone, those of us who had kids coming up had no place to go locally at all other than Babe Ruth.

I am glad your situation was such that you didnt feel the need to go away from home to play until HS. I am curious what instruction he had before HS and after entering HS before he started doing AA & PG, etc.

I guarantee you if my son had stayed in town and only played local Babe Ruth, he would not have the skill level he had when he entered HS.
The guys here in that league were great guys, but they were just dads with no real experience at teaching the game. They were just the same guys that had done LL and were now moving up to Babe Ruth with their kids. There were not going to be offering anything more than they taught in LL.

By going to an AAU program, we were exposed to hitting and pitching programs developed from college and profession programs. These staffs had worked with the college and pro
coaching staffs and trainers to develop a progressive program for young teens. The local dads had no access to this kind of knowledge.

Its very easy to say parents push too much, but when my son was younger he watched that team 20dad and others put together and he wanted to play baseball like that, not at the level of play he saw when went to the local Babe Ruth field.

In my opinion, a parent's job is to provide as many opportunities as possible for their child to do the things they say they want to do.
If your child is happy playing locally, by all means...stay local. If the child says he wants to play AAU/travel/select etc then you should do all you can to give them that opportunity.

Believe me, I'm sure every parent in a "northern state" who has a kid who loves baseball wishes we lived where you do.
All we can do is try to provide the best chance for our kids to find out how far they can go with this great game. The simple fact is for many of us, it means leaving the local scene and looking for better instruction and competetion elsewhere.

Thanks for listening!

Is it worth the effort? I think it is...

I knew that in order for my child to have a shot at HighSchool Baseball was to put him in a travel team and get him alot of " quality ay bats" against better pitchers. I also knew that the majority of Coaches in the area knew about certain teams and usually selected kids from these teams and sometimes,unfortunately , they had a preconceived notion that Rec Ball Kids wouldn't even be considered over the Travel Kids. I have seen it happened and I have also seen talented RecBall kids get passed over mediocore travel kids. That's the issue that I have.

As far as my child is concerned he absolutely loves the game. He loves to play better competition and he wasn't getting that with Little League. I was skeptical at first but he is one of the better players here in SOCAL. Hard work and a passion for the game has made him a starter as an eighth grader for his FROSH Team. He recently got an award at his Baseball Banquet and he deserved it and also proved to many people that if you work your tail off you will be rewarded.

On the flip side of all of this, I have an 8 yr old that is showing signs of playing baseball like his older brother. I feel I can work with him one on one, like someone mentioned here, alot better than a 8/9/10 select team? All the knowledge I got from working with his older brother will be applied to him if he wants it?

Parents also need to figure out what your child really wants? Tennis? Handball? S****r? If they have an interest and love for a sport by all means let him play it! Let them have fun as well!

quote:

Parents also need to figure out what your child really wants? Tennis? Handball? S****r? If they have an interest and love for a sport by all means let him play it! Let them have fun as well!

What if your son wants to play that 8/9/10 yr old select ball?

quote:

Parents also need to figure out what your child really wants? Tennis? Handball? S****r? If they have an interest and love for a sport by all means let him play it! Let them have fun as well!

Exactly!

Question

If in 4th grade you child says he wants to play the trumpet or some other musical instrument, are you going to send him to a music instructor, or someone you know who once played that instrument?

NH,
Here are some answers to your questions. I do understand yuor frustration.

First of all, if I had to wait until HS for son to learn anything, could have been in real trouble. As much as it is a hot bed here, not every school has the finest of coaches. Not every coach is of the quality you may think (no offense to anyone). We were more interested in finding coaches who would not abuse his arm, not necessarily the best. They were all dads, except one year a young ex minor leaguer who I thought probably the worst. Most coaches had considerable knowledge of the game. His LL coaches (he played Khourey actually) were just good coaches who played for fun, one year coached by husband, who probably taught him the most. Sons favorite coach was the 63 year old man who took no BS and gave his team opportunities to be seen all over the country in senior summer (Connie Mack). So we did travel out of state to seek best competition in the country. I think the most knowledgeable coach was his fallball coach in HS but his best and smartest coach has been his college pitching coach. With all the good coaching here, son said all of them put together don't have as much knowledge he does. In college son has learned some of the basics that you say you need to get ahead. Everything is relevant, and I do understand your position. I think the biggest opportunity here is that our kids get to spend a lot of time outdoors. My husband used to spend hours outdoors with son throwing rocks into the lake, when he was younger. I thought he was crazy, but he said it would help his arm someday.

Son never had a lesson in his life pitching or hitting, but good mechanics from early and we figured we would let whoever got him after HS make adjustments.He taught himself to throw a change up early on, worked on his FB, used curve later in HS and no actual real slider (more of a slurve) until frosh in college. He needed lots of work on his breaking ball, but again, that instruction came in college. He spent a lot of time watching "real baseball" vs playing when in middle, whereI think he learned most of the rules. One of our biggest advantages, seeing the game often in real time. We never sent him to one camp in our area run by ex pros, but a HS camp for one week at chrsitmas to keep him busy, for fun, not instruction. So, with all you say we have available we never really took advantage. And as competitive as it is, you might think that many of us do, but we on't take advantage.
I do admit that when the MLB scout came to our house he told us he had been watching him since HS began.

I understand your position living in the north and finding best opportunities. One thing I have always stated, if you do live in such a location, look for the best team to play for, especially one that will take you to other places.

Everywhere you live has their pros and cons, we live in a hotbed here, but also a place where you play 365 days a year, which gives an advantage yes, but also a disadvantage, no real rest time, burn out, etc.

quote:

If in 4th grade you child says he wants to play the trumpet or some other musical instrument, are you going to send him to a music instructor, or someone you know who once played that instrument?

Depends on the qualifications of that person who once played the musical intrument is. Same analogy can be made for the baseball scenario.

rz1,

Exactly!..If you have a friend or local person who can teach them properly you would most likely try that person first.

But if there was noone you felt could teach the child correctly, you would naturally expand your search. You would not just send them to someone you felt would not teach them correctly and then have to have them unlearn and retrain themselves a few years later.

That is the exact situation many of us find ourselves in when it comes to athletics.

quote:

Son never had a lesson in his life pitching or hitting, but good mechanics from early and we figured we would let whoever got him after HS make adjustments

TPM, I see where you are going with this and my son also did not have a lesson before college, but, I feel that you have "ability" early on and are taught mechanics.

TPM,

Thanks....greatly appreciated.

From what you described, you have had the best of it, your son must truely be a pure natural for the game and very mature for his age as well. Very few could do what you say he did and progress to the collegiate level. If you leave most kids to their own they will not develop proper throwing or hitting mechanics.

Congrads on raising an exceptional young man!

quote:

In my opinion, a parent's job is to provide as many opportunities as possible for their child to do the things they say they want to do.
If your child is happy playing locally, by all means...stay local. If the child says he wants to play AAU/travel/select etc then you should do all you can to give them that opportunity

AMEN!!

I have read every post and I like what yankeelvr said too:

quote:

" it worked for me so I must be right!!!" Every single situation is different. If travel baseball is what your child and family enjoy, go for it. If you want to stay local, enjoy as well.

Here's what I did and why I did it:
It was right for my son as best as we can tell. I remember when he was 11 he wanted to play for a 13 yr old travel team. I told him I didn't think he could handle it. I was wrong. When he was 15 he wanted to play for an 18 year old select team 90 miles away. I reluctantly agreed but he “sacrificed” (according to some) all the things that has been mentioned and he loved it. BUT --- nothing he did (or I supported) was done to improve his ability to play at the next level. It was done for the "instant gratification" of playing for that team at that time. I agree the pre-high school competition he faced prepared him for high school and the elite competition provided by Dulin's Dodgers prepared him for the SEC and the SEC competition prepared him for professional baseball, but no team was used as a stepping stone to the next level. I think parents unknowingly try to guide their sons at a young age attempting to "prepare" them for the next level instead of doing what is best for them or what they want to do at that particular time. The benefits of playing for “this” team or “that” team may vary a great deal but I still think the game (wherever it is) should be played for only one reason.
Fungo

AMEN again, Fungo. I couldn't agree more.

NH,
Whether he has natural talent or not, I think we just had the same philosophy as Fungo. It may not be right for everyone, but I think many should read and understand what he is saying. Funny, his son played for the Dulin Dodgers, a team we faced in summer travel. It also prepared him to play in the ACC, the ACC preparing him for the next level.

I often wonder if most of our kids have the natural ability but we end up screwing it up? That's why we left him alone. We never prepared him to be a "player" which I find is the norm these days. Parents trying to "prepare" their sons for their future become very disappointed in the end. If you teach your son the rules of the game, to love and respect it, and has any ability, you will see as he grows and matures where the ability is leading to and you can point it in the right direction. That's just my philososphy and to be honest, if we had to do it all over again, we wouldn't change a thing!

NHFDad, I do really respect many of your posts, this one included. However, I thought I read where you stated that your son may have some after high school opportunities, or that he is a good enough baseball player to get other opportunities. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
If he is talented, I beg to differ on the team or coaching situations. There are countless players on Babe Ruth and other town teams that are very talented, jut not traveling.
There are some coaches in our country, like TrHit, who spend their lives teaching and promoting the game of baseball to our youth.
I have traveled to many of the finest aau, usssa and so on tournaments in Florida, certainly a hotbed as great players come from all over.
In my experience, about 10-20% of those teams are being coached by someone who knows how to teach fundamentals and knows how to get across to the kids. Many coaches just have a rep for putting together talent and traveling around. Many are just Dads.
The other 80% of those coaches all have reps as well, parents who say they are good coaches.
I often ask those parents if they are getting any training or practices, and they often say there is no time as the kids are always playing in tournaments.
This is why many of us say that baseball is not high level until high school.
As TPM has suggested, not even until after high school.
Why I think high school is a higher level is due to the 5 or 6 day a week practices and then games and practices throughout the season.
I have experienced high school coaches who don't offer quality instruction, but because of accountability, the percentage is more like 10-25% on the bad side. This is JMHO and my expereince.
As for age groups and levels of play, many kids here will play both L.L. and then aau after the L.L. season. They should be having Fun first and foremost because the game will take on a seriousness before long.
Keep in mind that Talent will always find its way through, sooner or later a kid thats good enough to move up will be spotted somewhere.

So many good posts from all sides. Rather than relate our experiences, since they parallel some of the ones others have posted, I’ll just post a few quick thoughts. (Can’t speak about 8/9 y/os, we started at 10)


There’s no real reason you can’t do both travel baseball and the other things like fishing etc. We’ve found time to go for hikes, spend other non-baseball time together, both during tournament trips and off-season. It isn’t a one or the other decision.


If he decided to give it all up tomorrow, does that make it not worthwhile? I don’t think so, he’s learned a lot and had fun. Learned life lessons. Plus there’s all that fishing etc we can do, no-one says it has to exclusively be done when they’re youngsters at age 10 and 11. I’m pretty sure we could have a good time hiking and fishing at 14-19 years old and beyond. After all we developed a pretty good relationship on all those baseball trips.


Regardless of how many of your friends are on your local town team or on the opposing bench, if half the team can’t hit, can’t make a play and the games are walk-a-thons, then it is not fun. Stack your team with classmates and best friends and it will still be a painful season. That’s not just my opinion, that’s what my son says too, and most of his team-mates feel the same way.


Besides, who says his friends are just the local kids he goes to school with? He’s made a bunch of good friends with kids from other towns spread out all over eastern Mass. Plus a few from out of the area, from rather far flung parts of the country. His local school friends can’t say that. It’s a good experience meeting and playing with new kids, you learn a lot about fitting in and dealing with different personalities.


Not all travel teams are about high pressure situations with extreme expectations. I’d say those teams are a relative rarity. Mostly it’s about learning to play good baseball along with other kids who want to learn and play good baseball. And then to play against other kids who want the same thing. You do that and the fun just happens, it’s baseball after all.

If it sets him up for success at HS or college then that’s just icing. That’s not why he’s doing it. He’s doing it for the fun of playing baseball the best he can.

The more I read around here, the more I'm convinced; the kid either has it or he doesn't. Mr. Fungo and I had this discussion on a chilly night back in March and I think I still believe it. Each year, as the kids progress from one level to the next, the number of their peers dwindles exponentially. The number of seniors on the roster at your local HS are a fraction of the kids who played as 10 yr olds. To get from rec ball to travel ball, you've either got it or you don't. To get from travel ball to HS ball, you've either got it or you don't. And so on.

I think putting your son on a travel team and giving him lessons MAY help get him from one level to the next. But when it's all said and done, they've either got what it takes or they don't. My son would love to play baseball in college, and even aspires to play pro saying he'd sign even if he's drafted in the last round. So I do what I can to help him in his pursuits. He plays for a pretty good travel team, takes pitching and hitting lessons over the winter, works out during the week on his own during the season. And those things may give him an edge over another player at some point.

As parents, we can't force it. There's no formula for success as many have suggested already. I'll do what I can to help keep the dream alive but when it's all said and done, he's either got it or he doesn't.

Beezer, a very important and good post. As parents we are there to Keep The Dream Alive. Squashing a childs dreams will always be done by someone, but a kid has to know that his parents back him, support him and will help him on the journey to his dreams and realities. For many the realities will hit home later, and the folks will still be there to help pick up the peices.

CoachRic,

Thanks for your input!

Just to clarify, my son turned 16 this past Feb. He is 6'5", 195 lbs. He throws left, bats right. He also plays basketball, but is not by any stretch of the imagination an instinctive basketball player. By this I mean he does very well in a system of set offensive plays where his responibilities are very well defined. Because of his height, and his long arms, many people including his HS coach feel he could play college basketball at the D3 and possibly D2 level....IF he started working year round on basketball now.

He enjoys basketball, but the sport he puts all the real work into has been baseball. He also enjoys golf as well.

He still needs to improve on consistency to be able to play baseball in college. This year is the first in the last 3 yrs we have not had a broken bone on the throwing arm. (broken wrist in 8th grade, broken hand 1/2 way through JV baseball in his freshman HS year.) Both injuries set him back a lot in his pitching development.

As far as "high level" ball is concerned, I feel the quality of the instruction he recieved from the AAU organizations he played for was far better than anything he could get locally.

The first AAU group was a very established program and the instruction program was the one i referenced earlier in the thread. The organizations instructors had ties to Red Sox, LA Dodgers and the University of Texas.
They worked together with these professions to build a solid program of instruction for 13-15 yr olds.

The other AAU organization he played for is run by a former college coach and MLB scout.
One of the things that drew us to them was the pitching coach. He is left-handed. It was he first time that my son had a pitching instructor who threw the same as he did. Just being a lefty obviously was not the only reason one would work with a coach. After the first time he worked with this guy, he said it was so nice to really see what someone meant instead of trying to translate it from watching a righty do it to him doing it.

He now plays for an American Legion team that is run by a former AAA player and current mlb scout.

At this point, its up to my son to decide if he really wants to see how far he can go with the game. We have provided him the best opportunities we could find here. (As his AL coach says, "He is just a ------ 16 yr old"). Again, because of his physical makeup, everyone keeps saying..."wait til he fills out".

I do not regret for a second making the choices we did. And believe me, it was not all a bed of roses either. We have some incredible memories as a family that I would never trade for anything.

I really enjoyed Beezer's post.

NHdad,
I can tell you this, at 16, 6'5" and 195 throws left bats right he will have opportunities. He doesn't even have to have the greatest numbers, if he shows to be projectible or coachable he sill be fine.

Mine is in college and still learning to be consistant. Consistency is a large part of the game, which usually comes later on when all of the parts are working. Mine became consistant as a senior, after growing, only to start all over again in college. After 3 years, we are having success with being consistant, so do not think that would hinder him to play college ball.

JMO.

quote:

I can tell you this, at 16, 6'5" and 195 throws left bats right he will have opportunities.

Too bad he doesn't switch hit. jk

Beezer,

I agree, but the "it" is not just talent. It is also how much heart & desire does he have to keep working at the game as pushing his abilities to the max.

As TPM said, after HS those who are competing for roster spots all have "talent". How many of them are then willing to max out their talent with all out desire and a great work ethic?

In their early teen years, its up to us to open to lead them to the door. They have to open it up and step through it.

My son has had a couple of situations where he felt like he was not treated fairly as far as playing time was concerned. He talked with his coaches, but then I asked the gentlemen who told me about this site if I could borrow his oldest son for a little while. This young man had just completed his sophomore year at an Ivy league school where he was pitcher. He did not play much, only getting into a handful of games.
He told my son that as he continued to play the game he had better be doing it because he loved it. The competition was fierce after HS and you needed to be prepared to possibly not play as much as you were used to in the past. This young man graduated just afew weeks ago, and is headed to the west coast next month to join the rest of us working stiffs. I think in his 4 yrs in college baseball, he may have pitched a total of 50 to 60 innings. Right now, before he heads in the working world, he is playing in a twilight league in Maine for the summer ....because he just loves the game!

Dad04,

Lol...He wishes that too sometimes. It takes a lot of effort to get those size 16 cleats moving....lol

NH,
One thing that we college parents can tell you. When you step on that field you are the same as everyone else.

The differnce in programs is which coaches will work with EVERYONE to succedd in their program and later on not just a few.

Beezer - Good post...I find myself looking forward to your thoughts on these things.

Fungo - As usual, very insightful and wise advice.

quote:

...and still learning to be consistant. Consistency is a large part of the game, which usually comes later on when all of the parts are working.

TPM - This point is often overlooked and cannot be overemphasized. Very nice.

TPM,

Thanks, That is exactly the type of program I would love to see him get into.

He is a very gifted young man when it comes to mathematics and he is now starting to look at the academic end of things after HS. One thing i do absolutely know....If he chooses to play sports in college, there will be no issues about his grades come admission time.

I do greatly appreciate your insight & expereince on this topic. Thanks Again!

NHFdad,

I tease. If he can throw more strikes than balls and keep it low, he'll need an appointment secretary to keep all the scouts and coaches straight next year.

Dad04,

LOL...no problem at all....

Right now, we just waiting for him to complete Driver's Ed. Then its off the the insurance co.....LOL

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
Beezer,

I agree, but the "it" is not just talent. It is also how much heart & desire does he have to keep working at the game as pushing his abilities to the max.

NHF - I don't think I ever meant to insinuate that "IT" = only talent.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Beezer - Good post...I find myself looking forward to your thoughts on these things.

JBB - Call me in exactly 5 years and we'll see how I'm doing then.

Beezer,

I was not sure exactly what you may have meant by "it". I have heard many people describe the "it" as many things. I was only trying to clarify my thoughts on it.

Nice post Beezer

Funny thing about the you either have it or you don't philosophy and this is what makes baseball such an interesting game to me - When things are going your way, i.e., you are crushing the ball every time up, every thing you dive for sticks in your glove, you are living on the black with confidence and hitters are at your mercy etc., one might get the impression that you have it.

At a different time, when things are not going your way or as you would like, thoughts may creep in that you just may not have it or that you may have reached your ultimate level. I don't think the answer is clear in many cases and often times it takes overcoming not only other peoples doubts about whether you have "it" but your own personal doubts to determine "it" one way or the other. Interesting conversation

I think talent, from what I'm learning in this whole process, is only part of "IT". So, you're absolutely right NHF, it certainly helps provide a definition but there's more to it than that as CD alluded to.

One of the most common denominators of successful people is confidence. Read this interview with the four finalists for this years Roger Clemens Award.

Count how many times confidence directly affected their performance. "Knowing" you have "it" is actually better than having "it". It matters not to have "it" if you don't know you have "it".

If you want to play well, play with a "chip" and know you belong.

Roger Clemens Award Chat

quote:

Originally posted by Beezer:
JBB - Call me in exactly 5 years and we'll see how I'm doing then.

You reminded me of one of my first conversations with my own father after my first child was born. He asked me, "Are you a good father?" I said, "I think its too early to tell?!"

He then said, "Yeah, you're right...it takes at least 25 years to tell."

Dad04 - I agree about confidence.

In my mind, A-Rod's numbers are not too shabby this year. Apparently, he is hearing it from some of the home faithful. Who would dispute that A-Rod does not have "it." I wonder if he is playing with complete confidence right now. Just a current example.

Confidence is related to time and current circumstances imho. When Roger Clemons ended up in Toronto, it almost seems like he took that as an insult and re-created his own "it" factor. I guess I am rambling today but I believe "it" is a very complicated thing - especially as "it" relates to baseball.

Here is another example. If you tell me that you have a work ethic second to none, and that you have just graduated from Stanford, I can just about guarantee your future station in life. In other words, you have the "it" required to succeed and handsomely. In baseball, you may be an All-American at Stanford and still not have "it." Of course, some would say, merely playing at Stanford is proof of having "it." Jeremy Guthrie is still trying to break in with the Indians and I am not sure he or they are convinced he has it. One thing he does have, is a hopfully a nice nest egg for the future

Am I making any sense?

Probably.

Father's,
I really miss mine right NOW.
I wish he could see his Grandson Play Ball
He'd be so Proud.
Wait a minute, Maybe he Does?? EH

CD - Yeah, I think you've got 'it.'

BTW, JG was an absolute stud on The Farm. Hard for a lot of us to figure that one out. Perhaps the best pitched college game I ever saw in person was him versus Prior on a Friday night. Final score was either 1-0 or 2-1.