Worth the Effort?

There is no doubt that travel ball at a very high competitive helped my guy get to Division I baseball--without it it would not have happened

The main event in it all was a High Profile Tournament the summer between his junior and senior HS years which his team won and he was named MVP. Being named MVP in this event put him on the same plain as Mo Vaughn and BJ Surhoff who had been MVP's in the event as well in previous years

My son played travel ball for 5 years, starting at age 9. For us, it was a labor of love and "memory building." The local WrecK league just wasn't enough for a kid eating up with the game. Granted, it started at 20 games a year, up to 68 games his 13-U year, when the only option was to play 54/80 (we opted for the full field).

Please do not misinterpret my original post.

We just felt that before HS, there was no need to be seen at showcases, out of state travel tournaments. But that was How we FELT, and how son felt. We did the USA, we did the pg, macabbi Olympics(you don't get much exposure there) we did the Connie Mack travel summer ball, and fall ball, but beginning in 10th grade.


JMO.

My daughter played club volleyball and was offered a full ride to play at a JUCO. She turned it down with my blessing.

My son was drafted in June and started select in the 12 year old group when he was 11. I have always told him not to play the game for college money or to go pro -- play it if you like it. He loves it. However, he has burned out at times. I've learned when to encourage him in practice or tournaments and when to back off.

I have a son who just turned 8. He throws pretty hard and has a decent bat. He has been invited on many select teams, but I will hold him off. I am just now starting to coach him and he looks like he has a chance to be pretty good. When the other kids (dads) are driving to tournaments to play, I will get him many more reps in a cage and on a field. If you play a 5 game tournament and get 15 ABs with an average AB being 4 pitches, you get 60 pitches in a whole tournament. Also, with 7 innings, 21 outs and 9 strike outs, there is about 1 ball per game per position. You need playing experience to get better but also practice time.

The issue isn't to play select, it is when. I believe my 8 year old son will catch up to every one of the players who are his age playing select if I start him later. He is still going to throw 90+ and hit the ball upper 400s to 500' whether we drive now or not (like his brother). The tournament ball will not help him run faster, throw harder or hit farther.

Bottom line, parents and players can burn out. And baseball is still just a game (it happens to be the greatest one).

Most of the best players play in the most competitive situations they can find at a relatively young age (10 and over). Do you have to do it? No, but to be truly successful, at some point you have to make substantial sacrifices, such as church camp, fishing and swimming.

Plus, most of them, love nearly every second of it. I have never seen a successful high-level player quit because he was tired of it. I have seen them quit, instead, because over time they were not as good as they once were.

There are exceptions, but not many.

More and more of today's parents honestly feel that the only way their kid can stay even with the pack is to play high levels of competition at younger and younger ages. Unfortunately, I think they are being mislead.

There simply is no evidence that playing higher levels of baseball before puberty significantly improves skill development after puberty, but there is plenty of evidence that stress at an early age negatively impacts emotional development. The risks are huge IMHO and not worth it.

There's no place like home before puberty.

This is always a tough one and the answer must be found based on alot of soul searching from both the player and the parents.

1. Does the player truely WANT to play "outside the neighborhood" as it were. Not playing local ball means not being with your friends and giving up a lot of other free time to make practice/games/tournaments. He will have to find time to do drills and practice skills when he is home, not just always at a team practice. Also there is no guarantee on how much actual playing time the kid will really see.

2. Do the parents TRUELY understand what they are getting into.

A. This is a HUGE time commitment for parents, especially if the team plays & practices at a location which is not locla to them. It means your summer weekends are pretty much dedicated to baseball. Also depending on how often the team practies, it means a lot of week nights getting home late.

B. Also a large investment in money is involved. Not just the check you hand over to the team, travel expenses such as hotels when attending tournaments, gas, food, etc.

C. If you have other children, your going to have to bring them along (and keep them happy & occupied), find someone to watch over them, or split-up and have one parent go the baseball and the other stay home and care for the other children.

3. Before you commit to a team, have a very straight forward and frank discussion with both the head of the organization as well as the coach of the team you are looking to join.
Don't hold back for fear of putting them off,
you need answers to all your questions now.
Ask them for names of parents who have had kids play in their organization. It is better to deal with all the issues that you can at this point, rather than waiting until the middle of the season and trying to handle it then. If you don't feel comfprtable with things, investigate other teams.

4. Talk to other parents in your area that have experienced having a child play at these levels. Some will have had great experiences, others will not. It's a good idea to hear both sides of street to help you make your choice.



If the player and the parents agree these issues can be handled, there are some very good things that come from playing outside your local world of ball......

1. In most cases, the player will find better instruction than playing locally. If you are fortunate and your local teams are execptional with very high end coaches, this may not be a factor for you. The reality is most local teams are coached by well meaning indivduals who may indeed know the game and be able to teach it well, but the good AAU/Travel type teams are usually an organiztion of people with ties to college and/or MLB. They have access to better resources of information and teaching techniques. Many of the coaches in these kinds of programs either played or coached at the collegiate or professional level. At a minimum, the player will be exposed to other training/teaching methodologies.

2. The player will also be exposed to other high caliber players. Both on teams he plays against, as well as on his own team. Just competeing for a starting position on one of these teams will make your young player better than staying home knowing he will always be a starter even if he doesn't work hard at the game.

3. The player will get to experience regional & national tournaments. This is a big step up from playing in your local district play for LL or Babe Ruth. There is the obvious jump-up in the level of play, but also the kids have a great time interacting with other teams while they attend these events. Most of the teams get involved in pin trading at the larger tournaments and its great anytime youngsters get a chance to get out and meet players from around the country.

The bottom line to all this is what your child wants from the game of baseball not what you want for him from the game. It is not always a cut and dry choice for a kid who is say somewhere between 9 and 15 yrs old. You know your child better than anyone, make sure this is what HE wants. If you think he is doing it because he believes you want him to, you will be in for a rough ride. Be very honest with him about your expectations of what he has to do. The rewards from playing ball at these levels are great, but do not fool yourself by saying its only a game. It is certainly not life & death, but it is very serious baseball and needs to be approached as such. If your feelings are its just a game, you should probably stay home and play local.

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:
Most of the best players play in the most competitive situations they can find at a relatively young age (10 and over). Do you have to do it? No, but to be truly successful, at some point you have to make substantial sacrifices, such as church camp, fishing and swimming.

Plus, most of them, love nearly every second of it. I have never seen a successful high-level player quit because he was tired of it. I have seen them quit, instead, because over time they were not as good as they once were.

There are exceptions, but not many.

Show me hard evidence that anyone playing high level competitive baseball at 10 got further ahead than others and I will beleive it.
Those that have the talent it takes for the level after HS would have made it regardless of when they began playing.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
When the other kids (dads) are driving to tournaments to play, I will get him many more reps in a cage and on a field. If you play a 5 game tournament and get 15 ABs with an average AB being 4 pitches, you get 60 pitches in a whole tournament. Also, with 7 innings, 21 outs and 9 strike outs, there is about 1 ball per game per position. You need playing experience to get better but also practice time.

I think there's a big difference between hitting in a cage and hitting in a game situation.....2 strikes, 2 out, bottom of the seventh, runner on third, down by 1.

Liberty,

While I have no studies (and we all know how impartial and accurate studies are) to back this up, I will base it on my experiences here in the NH/MA area.

Because so many kids stop playing baseball after LL, lets focus on 13-15 yr old players.

A great many players here who played some if not all those years in a program other than the local Babe Ruth league and starting on HS varsity teams. You better have dam_n good instruction, coaching and competetion in your town leagues if you think your going to compete with these players for starting positions.

My son is 16 and he started at 1B last season for his HS varsity. 4 other starters had played baseball outside their respective town leagues. Next year 4 of his classmates who also played AAU baseball will be on varsity

Most of the players my son played with at 12U & 13U made varsity or JV teams in their first two HS seasons.

I agree simply playing AAU/select travel ball at 10 won't guarantee playing on the HS team, but getting quality instruction and seeing high level play in the 13 and 14 yr old years makes a big difference.

How many 14 yr olds who throw 80 MPH are playing in your local Babe Ruth league? Every team we played during my sons 14U yr had at least one. My son got to see and hit against pitchers that were HS varsity caliber when he was 14. No question whatsoever that those experiences helped him when he got to HS.

TPM,

With respect, having talent is one thing, being taught how to apply it in a competive situation in quite another.

We see that exact same thing in basketball. My son is baseball player who plays basketball. At 6'5", he was the backup to a senior center last year. This year he will be a starter and be on the court with 4 other guys who are ALL AAU basketball players. His job will be to play defense and rebound and he will probably average 8-10 points a game in the system the coach uses. The HS coach has told us if he had played AAU basketball the past few years he could be a dominant force in NH basketball last year and certainly would have been able to look at playing D3 or D2 college ball. Most of the centers he will playing against in the winter will have spent all summer playing AAU/Select basketball.

In the past he has only played basketball during the basketball season. This summer he is trying to get to as many summer league games as he can, but its not much because of American Legion baseball. He knows the HS basketball team could contend for a state title this year too though, so he is trying to do as much as he can to be ready for that.

Just having talent is NOT enough today in any sport. That is why the word potential is such a dangerous word when used to describe a young athlete.

quote:

I have a son who just turned 8. He throws pretty hard and has a decent bat. He has been invited on many select teams

To me, this is the scariest comment in the whole thread. No, not the dad who made the comment but the concept of "many select teams" at age 8.

What are these people running the many 8-year old select teams thinking? Go ahead and play in tournaments in the next town with the better hometown players...but "select?" YIKES!

OK, back to the original question. Our older son started travel ball (not sure I'd say "select") in 8th grade. I have no doubt it made him a better player/pitcher faster. Probably helped a lot in the long run too.

But why the rush? When you're 8/9/10 years old, why not go to church camp, fishing, the Grand Canyon, Disneyland? Be a kid. Be with your family (they won't really want too that much at 16/17/18 anyways).

The best summer we ever had (i.e. our family) was when we "gave up 13-year old all stars" for a little while and took a break from travel ball and we all went to Aruba for 10 days and swam, snorkeled by a shipwreck, rode the banana boat, hung out at the pool/on the beach and did the limbo...and HAD FUN other than baseball! Yes, sometimes "baseball is life" for us, but a kid has to be a kid (and a parent has to be a kid) sometimes too.

This discussion seems to be headed in the same direction as many hitting discussions go..." it worked for me so I must be right!!!" Every single situation is different. If travel baseball is what your child and family enjoy, go for it. If you want to stay local, enjoy as well. I enjoy hearing of many differing experiences but don't need a lecture on any single one of them. I happen to think that the younger a child is exposed to different players and coaches and having a chance to play with others of similar ability will end up being a positive life experience, regardless of any future baseball implication.

I am not talking about talent, they all have talent in one form or another.

You might understand someday when your son reaches college or pro, which are NOT the same as the HS game. All the kids on the field are talented or they wouldn't be there, but you can sure enough pick out who will most likely make it to the highest level and who will not. I think that this is true in ANY sport.

Yes, baseball should begin early, because it is essentially a game that has fundamentals that need to be practiced over and over. And rules,rules, rules. That learning should be emphasised in the form of FUN early on, because baseball is SUCH a slower sport, for some after a while it becomes boring. I am not against better competitve competition, however it doesn't have to begin at 10, and there is a big difference playing at 10 and 15,16. And I am sorry, when I hear the words high level play at 13, 14 just makes me chuckle. Some may understand that, others may not.

I do not like to compare baseball with any other sport.


JMO.

There are many differences between boys who have reached puberty and those who haven't. Playing a high level of competition at 14 is very different than at 9.

My concern is for the younger players who do not yet have the physical and emotional maturation to handle the demands of tough competition and all of it's expectations. Solid, level headed parents are lead to believe that bumping up competition in 10 year olds will somehow enhance their abilities down the road.

I personally think that's more a case of wishful thinking than fact supported by evidence. This wishful thinking blinds parents to the dangers of exposing their young sons to situations they aren't ready to handle. The damage is usually very subtle and may not surface for years. To me, it's not worth the risk.

While I am opposed to 8/9/10-year old "elite" teams...I am not opposed to getting the better neighborhood kids together and competing against similar teams from the next town down the road. Basically...thats youth baseball all stars...perhaps with an extended season.

But I also want to say this...as the parent of 6 kids, it is absolutely amazing to me, !AMAZING! how much you can teach young kids to do. Speak another language, play the piano, solve advanced math problems and pitch a baseball and swing a bat proficiently. I DO believe you can enhance their abilities significantly. The question in my mind is whether it enhances them as baseball players down the road as well...or merely peaks their abilities earlier?

I, too, believe you can teach and improve many skills in young children including those in baseball. However, its the whole package that comes with "select" ball that concerns me. More specifically, the expectations of intense competition, sacrificing self for team, and winning.

Many kids today seem so afraid to take risks, to fail, to accept responsibility. I have to wonder if it's partly because we tend to put them in situations before they're ready to handle them ... when they're very young and just beginning to test the waters.

A 9 year old does not have the same physical or emotional development as a 14 year old. They may both be able to hit a ball with a bat, but they are worlds apart in how they handle the responsibility of doing that in a game situation.

At the pro level, developing and protecting a prospect's confidence is huge. When placing a prospect, every consideration is given to both his mental and physical development and rarely is one pushed at the expense of the other.

TPM:

I don't have hard evidence of anything, nor am I likely to anytime soon. What I have is my own observations, which are pretty extensive. The one thing I can say for sure is that plenty of kids with loads of talent discovered for many reasons that the talent alone was not enough and they went by the wayside. Mainly because they either were not willing to sacrifice or because they were not up to the competition under pressure.

I will agree with this though. Without the talent, you have no chance, even with all the hard work in the world. But, of course, even that depends on your definition of success, which in this case would mean major Division I baseball.

Where the work will pay off is with a chance to play college baseball somewhere, even at a lower level. In the end, it is entirely possible for great talents to wait too long to fully develop that talent and then they go by the wayside. (And, no, I don't advocate anyone beginning at eight or nine. Ten is fine, but probably nothing means all that much until you get to the bigger field).

I also agree that the determining factor is whether it is fun. If the kid enjoys it and the family enjoys it, go for it. But I never viewed giving up that other stuff as much of a sacrifice. I also advocate playing in the local rec leagues and then going beyond that. Fortunately here in a growing area like Phoenix with our weather and with the proximity to Southern California and Las Vegas it is a pretty easy thing to do.

just baseball:

I think you hit on an important point. I do believe that the younger you begin the earlier you peak and that is indeed a reason so many kids go by the wayside later. But that would have happened anyway. If, however, you are one of those with great talent, the early start is only going to be of benefit down the road, barring some catastrophic injury. And, with the incredible competition for a mere place in the lineup in the best programs here, some guys with great talent fall so far behind in their actual ability to play the game at just the right moment, that they never are able to capitalize on their talent. That is where the tough choices can come in. I have no doubt that the same is very true in SoCal as well.

Jemaz

I do not think starting early has that much to do with peaking---the physical maturity of the body contributes to that as much as the playing---many if not most of the young players do not mature until they are 18 or 19 if not later

I think the big difference between "Travel/select" and "neighborhood/rec league" baseball is instruction. Sure, kids can play in a rec league and learn how to hit, how to pitch, how to field, etc. But are they going to learn the finer points of the game? A vast majority of the rec league coaches don't know those intricate details that a travel coach most likely does. How to bunt, when to bunt, cut-offs, who covers what base, how to steal and when and how to read the pitcher, how to crow hop or jump step (and when) on balls hit to the OF, how to turn two, various pick-off moves for the pitcher, and on and on.....

Are you making the assumption that the HS coach is going to teach them all of that? I'm pretty sure he's hoping his incomming prospects know these things already.

BEEZER

Your point is well taken

At the level most of us play at it is more refining the game and teaching the finer points of the game---

Beezer - I hear your point loud and clear. No doubt you are correct about that. Maybe I'm spoiled, but we (myself and a former D1 pitcher who is also a dad) took our younger son's group at age 10. Kept them in the rec. league, but on Sundays and "off" weekends (e.g. Memorial Day, Spring Break, etc...) we played in tournaments around the area. We taught them all of that stuff...they could squeeze, hit-and-run, sac. bunt, run pickoff plays they call themselves, throw behind runners, double-cut, hit breaking pitches, throw changeups, etc..., etc... and even steal signs and relay them to the hitter. In fact, right now as 13-year olds they are doing quite well and area HS coaches marvel at how "baseball-smart" they are. One of the very best HS coaches in our area (a friend of mine) has watched them play several times and thinks that the HS coach that ends up with these kids is going to have a great time going to work every day...and will probably win a lot too.

This, in part, is where my comment above comes in about how amazing it is they can learn to do so much at so young.

Through this season, they are still in the rec. league AND still doing this. They've won a couple of state championships, been one win away from the Bronco World Series (last year), qualified for nearly every other WS out there (USSSA, Super Series, BPA, etc..) multiple times (they've never gone though), played and done well in Cooperstown...but they're still with their buddies/schoolmates and even though they are not on an "elite" travel team...they're just a darn good one that wins a lot of games (sometimes against the "elite" ones) and has a lot of fun too.

TR - I agree with your comment that maturity comes at 18/19 or later...but like height (unfortunately not weight ), sometimes that ability curve starts to flatten out at an earlier age...sometimes later.

These are all great points, but I still don't believe the "finer points of the game" really matter in the overall development of 8 and 9 year olds.

Instead I wonder if the mental development of 8 and 9 year olds is being put on the back burner by well meaning parents and coaches who hope that everything will fall into place later if they push skills and competition now.

quote:

Originally posted by Liberty:
I wonder if the mental development of 8 and 9 year olds is being put on the back burner by well meaning parents and coaches who hope that everything will fall into place later if they push skills and competition now.

I am intrigued by this comment...in a good way. Can you elaborate?

Just - But you're not a "typical" rec coach either. Your kids can do all of those things because of the knowledge you've given them.

Beezer - Not meaning to give myself too much credit...you are probably right. I definitely do know what you're talking about with the vast majority of rec. league coaches and that gives your point a lot of validity.

But I do still like the way we've done this. Other 'baseball dads' in our area are starting to do the same thing and having more luck at keeping the neighborhood kids together a little longer.

quote:

Originally posted by Liberty:
These are all great points, but I still don't believe the "finer points of the game" really matter in the overall development of 8 and 9 year olds.

I agree but I think at some point (10...11...12) it's a prudent move to travel ball. My comment was comparing it more to those who wait until HS (or right before) to put their son on a travel team. I think they'll generally be behind their peers developmentally if they come from a rec team versus a player who comes from a travel team when they show up at Freshman try-outs.

My observartions....

I have had two boys play "select" baseball and HS ball. One was an '05 and is currently playing D1 football (He is a DE and is 6'7" 265 lbs so football was obviously his best sport).
The other son is an '07 who is currently getting alot of phone calls from D1 baseball coaches and will almost certainly early commit sometime this summer. And lastly I have a 8 year old lefty who looks to be one heck of a player.

1. I see ALOT of parents who are absolutely crazy about pushing their young (less than 12 years old) into travel and select baseball at increasingly young ages.

2. The worst parents are the ones who never (or did very little) played the game themselves.

3. Adults are the ones who dream up 8 year old coach pitch "World Series" - not the kids.

4. Fishing, hunting, golf, etc. are VERY important - they are skills that when learned can be used for a lifetime. Remember - only 0.5% of all HS baseball players will ever play an inning in the Major Leagues. The odds are just not in your favor. BTW - that figure is from the NCAA website.

5. Kids physically change at different stages...kids that dominate at 9 years old may not make the HS team. Does it really matter if your 3rd grader doesn't travel the country playing baseball...is that really going to hurt his chances to make the HS team 8 years later?

I think that parents just need to relax and let their boys enjoy being a boy without making baseball into a career path at 9 years old.

these are some great post's i guess no one is really right but having gone down this road and looked back i'll throw my nickel in.
i think LL has a place in the world but i am drawn to teachers looking for foreign language money in our town,it's easier to learn at a younger age.so why don't we lead and steal at 10 11 years old?teach pitchers how to hold runners on?maybe it doesn't matter? not one 12 year old was drafted this year.
i know we as parents think our kids are great ,and maybe they are.but what about the other 8 kids?are they as good? maybe at 12 having fun is still the right thing to do?we send kids to the cooperstown week for the eye opener and some fun.kids that will play HS ball together. this is the 6th year we have done it ,if nothing else they have a memory.
i know there aren't as many great programs as in some parts of the country.but in our area parents are ready to spend money to play AAU or select ball on 13 year old kids.these are kids who have never played on the big field.in my opinion play your in your local league for free. get used to it see if your love of the game continues.if you dominate your league ,time to think about aau.
even if the program is a bad one and i'm sure everyone sent their kids to a good one. the selling point to me is more practice more games.a player has to get better, even by accident.my son played AAU. at 14 15 at 16 went to usa baseball in jupiter.never paid more than a 1000 dollars for 55 games and at least as many practices.coached by regular people who knew the game.out of maybe 26 differnt kids maybe 8 kids played in college.two were drafted.
my point is every kid is different.every area is different.if the player dominates his league look up.the most important time is the summer between jr and sr year of high school.find a place to be seen.the thing to remember, people have more fun than anybody.and thats documented.

I'm going to put my 2cents in.

There's a real thin line between an elite travel team, and a very well coached local team.
It's baseball not rocket Science.
If a player can play they can play with anybody.
I do believe that the perception that these elite team's are so much better put's a little fear in the less travelled team's.
But i've also seen the less travelled team's rise to the occasion and win.
It's about comfort level, and how well a player handle's the pressure.
Elite travel team's if you notice carry many more quality pitching arm's on there team's.
And that's the key to winning in any long drawn out tournament.
But to say your only going to be good if you play a 100 game season is wrong.
Real baseball will start at about 15yr's of age.
everything before that is spent learning to have respect for the game, and fundamental's of how the game should be played.
Nothing else will really matter, no Made up world series will make you a better player. Only hard work and having Fun playing the Game.
Do you notice the first part of Fundamental's.
It spell's FUN.
JMHO EH

Liberty

8 and 9 year olds should be practicing and not playing travel ball--this is the age they need to learn fuundamentals not be trying to win meaningless trophies

I am talking HS players

Stylemismatch,
Don't let anyone tell you that your son needs to give up other things to be successful. Making substantial sacrifices comes later on in life, doesn't need to happen when our kids are so young.
During my son's middle school years he "sacrificed" summer travel ball (asked to play for several teams) to go visit family in other states, play indoor basketball, bowling, helping in family business,fishing and spent one entire summer playing golf almost every day whenit wasn't raining. (Now that was expensive!) I don't think it hurt him one bit!

EH,
Real baseball begins after HS!

TPM, I do believe your right.
But I was kind of giving the over Zealous the benifit of the doubt.
And then we also could say that real baseball start's is only in the MLB. EH

You know when you think about--forget the bottom line--- would you give back all the great memories you have?

TR, that's a very good answer.
I'm a firm believer that thing's will happen in due time.
Don't rush into a Fail situation.
Take your time and Grow as a person.
Some Player's are big Enough, Strong Enough, Mentally Ready to make the Jump.
Other's need the time to Mature both Phisically, Mentally. And I might add Spiritually. EH

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
TPM, I do believe your right.
But I was kind of giving the over Zealous the benifit of the doubt.
And then we also could say that real baseball start's is only in the MLB. EH

EH,
Notice I just said after HS! Some say the game is not real unless you play with wooden bats, so does this mean that those in HS or college playing with wooden bats aren't playing real baseball, or is real baseball played only when you get paid for what you are doing?

I guess a good bottom line is this: If you love it, go for it. If not, do other things. It's different for different players and different families, that's for sure.

And if you are truly lucky enough to be good enough, then it indeed won't matter. But if not, you might not be playing as long as you would like. It's a pretty high bar, but then that's what makes it so great.

I will say that for a hitter, I would stay away from the golf. Two very different swings. The indoor basketball would be pretty good, along with the outdoor basketball, too.

I believe it's all real baseball,
But when the player's begin to understand how the game should be played, have respect for the game.
Really understand what a good Coach is asking of them as a Player, then it's Real, Real Baseball.

And It's not about the Money.
That's just the fringe Benefit's of hard work. EH

.

quote:

You know when you think about--forget the bottom line--- would you give back all the great memories you have?

IMO....It's all about process. If it all ended today, would it have all been worth it? Have life lessons been learned? Are you, your son, your family, your relationships BETTER for having been through the process?

Even if you did not play college or professional ball?

44
.

O44,

No matter what happen's, For me.
I would not give up the Year's I've followed my Son around to differant ball field's all over the Country for Nothing.

You can not get these year's back, Enjoy the hear and now. EH