Would You Have Done This as Opposing Coach?

I think it is a fairly chicken crap way to handle it, I agree, but all the blame should rest on the head coach who's team forfeited. 

 

Know the rules. No excuse.

I clicked on the link and now I blame the head coach even more. The very first numbered item in the "Playoff Bulletin" is this exact item. It clearly defines what can and cannot be done and there is no gray area. It's the first, and nearly the only, thing listed under Rules. This is not something obscure and hidden.

 

How does he not have time to read this? Wow.

Wow... That's a new one on me.  My first thought is to wonder what the purpose of the rule is in the first place... Seems pointless.  Nonetheless, Peninsula coach's should have known the rule just like the Palo Alto coach obviously did when he knew to shoot video.  It stinks, but I don't see how you can blame the Palo Alto HC for pressing it; his job is to win and advance.  Ultimately the Peninsula coaches cost their players the game, not the Palo Alto coaches.  Tough way to go out.

In a related topic ....is anyone here as disturbed by the coach clandestinely using a telephone to record this for later use as people were about the player recording the CA coach that went off?

Weird.  Our CA section rules specifically permit wiffles.  But BP is banned before all games.

I'm speechless on so many levels over this.  One - why in the world is this even a rule?  What is the justification for this rule?  If the home / host team has the facilities to take BP (cage or on the field before game) then let them.  If they don't then they don't.  Let the coaches determine if they take BP or not - not a stupid rule.

 

Two - I agree with ironhorse after reading the bulletin I have no sympathy for the team who took BP.  It's in plain black and white as to what you can / cannot do.  No matter how dumb a rule is you really can't ignore it by just saying "nuh-uh that's a dumb rule we will do what we want".  Know the rules and look into these things ahead of time.  Failure to prepare isn't everyone else's fault - it's yours

Three - I think it's pretty s****y by the assistant coach to film what they were doing.  I would walk over and tell the coach that he was breaking a rule.  If at that point he refuses to quit then film it and send it in but at least he had a chance.

 

Seriously, that's a stupid rule.

.

The coach who filmed it is as low as it gets in my book.

He flunks the mirror test.

"THE PENALTY FOR BATTING PRACTICE WITH WIFFLE BALLS, SOFTBALLS, BASEBALLS, ETC. MAY BE FORFEITURE OF THE GAME."

 

"May" is not "shall".  It seems that there was leeway and there could have been a lesser, or no, penalty.  I wonder why CIF chose this most severe penalty.

I agree, but I wonder if it got put in because some kid somewhere got whacked with a bat because they were free swinging and someone got careless and too close.

 

It would be a typical reaction to an accident like that to ban whatever activity caused it.  So banning the activity is one thing, the penalty of forfeiting is another.  Pretty stiff.  My alternative would be suspend the coach for a game or two. 

I really hope that's not true because that is a sad sad sad way to handle an accident.  One kid doesn't pay attention to where he's walking and gets hit so let's stop everyone from doing something that happens a bazillion times in a spring, summer and fall with almost no incidences.   Under this criteria maybe MLB needs to keep bats out of the dugout and in a special area near the on deck circle due to what happened when Ryan Braun (pretty sure it was him) his his teammate when swinging a bat in the dugout.

Coach - Probably so but coaches wear helmets now after that minor league tragedy a few years ago.  Seems to me that is the most likely way a rule like this not only gets passed but is also at the top of the list. 

 

I am guessing the distinction of batting practice in a portable cage around home plate or a fixed tunnel is that there is a much higher awareness to "look before you leap".  But a group of players kind of bunched together swinging away with a carelessness level that is a lot higher and bam a bad accident happens.  Then the questions come...."why are they swinging bats in the open" etc.  It is pretty easy to see it playing out. 

 

Of course I could be all wrong and it just a official somewhere imposing themselves.

Okay, I'm definitely not defending the rule or the coach that reported the violation, but I'm pretty sure the rule exists to prevent either team from gaining an "unfair advantage" over the other.  Without the rule, home teams could take batting practice before games and then simply deny the visiting teams access to the same facilities or areas.  I absolutely cannot stand not being able to take BP before a game (even using whiffle balls or TCB balls would safely do the job), but HS does not allow it.

 

Stupid rule?  Absolutely.  Necessary rule?  Unless/until coaches can agree to afford the same opportunities to both sides and stop the "gamesmanship", unfortunately the answer is yes. 

Not allowing a visiting team equal pregame access to batting cage or field would be truly unacceptable, much moreso than videoing the opposing team as the asst coach did in OP example.  As seedy as that seems, a case can be made that that coach was actually just doing his job at a superior level.  Here in Texas, seems most HSs have a split batting cage. Home team takes a side and visitors take the other.  No one asks permission... No issues.  Not letting the teams have bp to prevent an advantage is to me along the lines of not letting guys stretch or play catch ahead of a game for the same supposed reason... Just doesn't make good baseball sense.  That's the problem with well intentioned rules that attempt to govern some arbitrary item like pregame bp; always unintended consequences.  No game, least of all post season games, should be decided via such minutia.

I'm in Calif. and we deal with this rule.  It applies only during CIF playoffs and has been in place for some time.  I think the reason for the rule is that during playoffs, teams are traveling further distances to face unfamiliar teams at unfamiliar facilities.  So, this offers some degree of assurance that the home team doesn't have the advantage of extra BP.  It is a strange rule on the surface but not that big of a deal.  You can still hit balls off the tee, hit side toss and play pepper.  During the last week of the regular season, we practice the altered pre-game routine a few times. 

 

During our first playoff game this year, a parent of the other team was recording our side-toss wiffle and pepper pre-game very closely.  Yes, we thought this was total BS but I guess that's how you prove your case if you are going to state a claim that the rules were broken. 

 

Personally, I want all the focus to be on winning the game on the field and would not be a part of that type of activity.  I also would have a very hard time taking the win because of such an infraction.  If we lost the game and it was left up to me whether we would take the win on the rules violation, I would decline.  If it were an offense where there was actually a competitive advantage, I may reconsider (such as a known ineligible player who contributed to the outcome).  I don't know if the coach can actually overturn this or not, though.  I would think it is in the hands of the governing federation once it has come to light?

 

 

 

That rationale is in line with what I thought.

 

With that being said, the coach who had to forfeit should know the rules.  If he doesn't, he is subject to something really dumb happening to him - like having to forfeit a game for hitting front tossed wiffle balls for 10-12 minutes.

 

For the reporting coach...he won the game but his reputation will suffer for years to come.  I hope it was worth it.

I am the same section in CA as Cabbage and the Pennisula team.  Do I think the rule is stupid, absolutely.  However it is needed.  The rule is no front toss involving a full swing.  This is to keep teams from taking Batting Practice, like Villa Park did, about 8 yrs ago before they left for the game.  This is also to keep teams from playing "Pepper" which is legal from 60 ft away with a full swing.  Trust me, it has happened.  I think it sucks that they are ousted but at the end of the day, this rule has been around forever!

I know it would not be my job as an opposing coach to police the other teams pregame.  But I think before I would stand there videoing the other team with my phone, I would probably walk over and let the other coach know that I intended to protest the game if he continued with the pregame wiffles.  If the coach told me to go "F" myself or just ignored me, I would feel better about protesting if thats what I chose to do.  I wouldtake some measures during the pregame to avoid having to protest and to make sure the game was settled on the field by the players.

 

 

 

 

I'm with shortnquick on this one...nothing wrong with letting the opposing coach know he was violating the rules and should stop just in case somebody doesn't like and will report it.  I am all for the rules and play within them....and like short said...if he says f-off that's a whole new story...lol

 

I think the recording was just an insurance policy in case the game turned out the way it did.

 

Why did they play the game.  Wouldn't it be a forfeit as soon as it happened, by rule? Wouldn't the umpires know the rule?

 

Was there a protest filed?

 

Of course, things might have gotten ugly had the above happened.

Not an umpire issue. Punishment gets decided by the overall authority.

I'd like to think that I'd take the high road too, but then I've never been a professional coach paid to Win.  It would be easy to take the theoretical high road here on the ol' baseball message board.  But if I'm really honest... As a dad with a kid on that team, I wouldn't think poorly of the asst. coach's actions... And would fully appreciate son advancing to another round rather than being done. For whatever (bad) reasons, the rule is there and so is the remedy... why wouldn't you use it if the other team left that particular barn door swinging open? Just Win Baby!!

Like others. I'd have walked over and told him that he's already potentially forfeited the game by doing what he did and that he should know the rules. Based on his response, I'd have responded accordingly.

It's a dumb rule. But it's the rule. The coach of the forfeiting team is responsible for not knowing the rules. However, if I were the coach of the other team I would have walked over and told the coach they're breaking the rules. Then, if they don't stop I file a protest just for disrespecting my team, me and the rules.

PG,
  Umpires show up about 15 minutes before game.  This would have been done way before they got there.  Game Times was 3:15 and most home team pre games start at about 2:45.  This would have been done around 2:15, way before the umpires are ever there.  The game will be protested prior to the game starting or they might have even waited until the last inning.  At the point they play the game under protest, it is sent to CIF to decide after the game is over if the team that protested lost, as it was in this case.

 

On a further note, not that I am agreeing with it, but the Peninsula Coach claims to have not known the rule.  The guy has been there 6 years.  EVERY year this comes up and it is in big bold print in our playoff packet.

There are a lot of assumptions here.  First, I have coached against a dozen guys who I know violate the rules and so, I wouldn't warn them at all.  If I caught them cheating, I'm not going to risk a confrontation before a critical game.  If, as has been reported here, that rule has been around forever, I find it hard to believe that a coach didn't know the rule.  When any HS coach gets the packet for regional/sectional play here, they had better read all of it.  There are rules for infield/outfield times, ...  If you miss your time tough luck.  There are times you are expected to arrive and check in.  Again, I can't think of any reason not to know the rules.  I don't think badly of the assistant coach at all.  He knew the rules.  Maybe he needs to have a head coaching job. 

 

Per the rule, sure it is dumb.  However, it is the rule and so, disregard it and pay the price. 

This thread really shows the difference in areas of the country.  The fact you guys play any game at 3:15 just astounds me.  That just seems way to early for me - hurts the crowds getting there (but I have no clue if it does or not).  In Kentucky we played at 5:30 or 6:00.  In North Carolina we play at 6:00 or 7:00.

 

 I still can't wrap my mind around the BP rule although you guys seemed resigned to it.  To me if you can have a rule that eliminates BP before the game for both teams you can have a rule that requires it.  

 

In North Carolina we don't have any rules - regular season or playoffs - about BP but everyone just does it.  Both teams get BP time.  Home team gets one hour and away team gets 45 mins.  

 

In Kentucky it was fine for the away team to not take BP before the game while the home team did.  We would (time permitting) take BP at our place and then head to the other school.  Playoffs it was pretty much impossible because we did tournaments.  Once one game was over they would play another one 45 minutes later (speaking mainly for regional tournament).

Here in Texas, the games start at 7 or 730 depending on district.
Both teams share batting cages and it is just done.
Stupid rule, but don't buy the excuse coach didnt know.
The coach that taped it, is no different than the mom who recorded the coach.

Would I have done it as the opposing coach? HECK YEA! Why wouldn't you? It's a way to continue to advance; you take any opportunity you can get.

 

If you don't like the rule, change it. But don't just violate it and then expect another team to let it slide.

 

Coach2709, our games normally start at 4:15 or 4:30. I don't know of any teams who take BP before they get on a bus unless it's maybe a day where there's no school. They also don't take BP before a game very often. The home teams often will do so right away after school and finish up as the away team arrives. 

 

Softball is a whole different story. They seem to all take BP before the game. Softball here carries more buckets of balls than baseball by far. I think they take 4-5 buckets for every game! 

Bulldog, I know one team that took BP before they got on the bus when you played and took BP before every home game.  In fact, 2 station BP.  I threw BP at that other school I coached as well.  At that school, I threw on the field and another coach threw in the cage. 

 

As Bulldog 19 said, our games start at 4:15 OR 4:30. 

Haha, always someone to prove me wrong Apparently the Tigers took an extended round of BP AFTER the game on Monday. They were taking BP as Waterloo's bus pulled in before the game and again after the game they were back on the field hitting as the bus pulled out. 

This story could get  possibly crazier.  Santa Monica won their quarter final game today but now the team that lost to them is filing a protest.  Our section has a rule that states that you must have an OF fence in order to host a quarter final game. Santa Monica has a football

goal post in left center alley at the warning track and their opponent was told that it is considered to be out of play area.  The coach that lost is contending that if it is out of play then they don't have a fence and they should have never been allowed to host.

 

Would I have reported it? I would be embarrassed to even think about it. Imagine telling your players "Congrats boys were moving on because they cheated." What did they do coach? "They used whiffle balls boys." The coach probably wouldn't have said a word if they had won. But he waited and held it in his back pocket and pulled it out after he got beat on the field. This is pathetic.

 

The coach is probably kicking himself for violating the rule as stupid as it is. The other coach should hide his face in public in my opinion.

The fact that there is such a rule shows you how absurd things are? 

Meanwhile, a Santa Monica assistant coach filmed the session on his cell phone and submitted it 

 

No comment needed.

Coach May, thank you for writing what I've been thinking the past few days, but couldn't put into words.  The coach who reported it is low class.

To what degree would a violation of rules then be significant enough for enforcement?  If a rule has been know for some years, as this one has, then are there levels of breaking the rules that are acceptable?  If the people who make the rules submit these rules in writing to all participating coaches, perhaps it is better that they just chuck the rules into the circular file and say that they are dumb rules and no one expects them to be enforced. 

 

On the other hand, imo, rules are rules and there are expectations that all follow them regardless of their opinions about the rules. 

Then why play the game? Just take the win. There are plenty of rules. Like that 35 mph zone your doing 36 in. Yep your speeding. Does the fine fit the crime? I call total BS on this.

In PA the games start at 3:30 or 3:45. It means most games are umpired by 65-75yo guys who don't want to admit they need glasses. One time the field umpire asked the HPU if a ball went over the fence. It clearly (to everyone else) rolled under the fence in an area where the ground had settled and sunk from the rain the day before. I don't think the umpire could see that far.

What would they do if both teams took pregame BP with whiffle balls? Double forfeit? What if it happened in the championship game? No champion?