There is nothing politically correct about an adult - like Bobby Knight - attacking young fans who verbally abuse him - or choking players who did nothing more than play poorly.
We have all seen the videos of Bobby Knight doing these things over the years. It isnt made up.
This behavior is a consistent trait of Bobby's. And Bobby will continue to do this - because - Bobby has always been an out of control gutless bully.
I think kids need to know - that when someone puts their hands on you - you need to defend yourself. And you should defend yourself vigorously.
Bobby needs to get knocked out. Sorry for the bluntness - but the old man needs to get KO'd.
It is time long overdue.
Then - maybe - he will stop putting his hands on kids.
IMO.
TPM - Bobby Knight according to some simply took his hand and lifted (forcefully or gently) to garner the player's attention. There are some that say it was more like a slap. From what I've seen and heard, I really don't think this particular incident was very bad.
The challenge for me in ignoring ANYTHING he does is that his history is one of being very physical.... to a point that I feel he's abusive... not a tough kinda coach.
I will agree though with the posters that say that players that sign with him know what they're getting into. He's well known for his style for many many years.
The challenge for me in ignoring ANYTHING he does is that his history is one of being very physical.... to a point that I feel he's abusive... not a tough kinda coach.
I will agree though with the posters that say that players that sign with him know what they're getting into. He's well known for his style for many many years.
Here is a brief Bobby Knight recap.
In 1974, during a regular-season win over Kentucky, Knight, after a conference and discussion with Wildcat coach Joe B. Hall, slapped Hall in the back of the head after Hall turned to return to his bench.
In 1979, Bob Knight was arrested for assaulting a police officer during the Pan American Games in Puerto Rico. Bob Knight was later convicted in absentia in a Puerto Rican court. However, the charges were later dropped when Indiana Governor Otis R. Bowen refused to cooperate in extraditing him to the island commonwealth.
Other notable incidents include Knight pulling guard Jim Wisman off the court by his jersey in 1976, throwing a chair across the court to protest a referee's call during a 1985 game against the rival Purdue Boilermakers, and allegedly kicking his own son, Pat Knight, during a 1993 game.
Assistant coach Ron Felling claimed Knight threw him off a chair and punched him in the chest after an eavesdropping Knight overheard him criticizing his program and methods on the telephone.
Felling sued Knight for assault and received an out-of-court settlement of $35,000 from IU.
In a practice session Knight struck and held the throat of player Neil Reed.
In 1999, Knight was involved in a hunting accident in which long time friend Thomas Mikunda was shot by Knight in the back and shoulder with a 20 gauge shotgun while shooting grouse. Two years later Bobby Knight would be sued for the event where Mikunda claimed he coerced him into lying to investigators. They reached a settlement out of court soon after.
Most recently, in March, 2006, a student's heckling at Baylor University resulted in Knight having to be restrained by a police officer. The incident, though, was not severe enough to warrant any action from the Big 12 Conference.
Bobby will - ultimately - IMO - be protected by all the sellouts in professional sports - and his lawyers and PR people.
But - in all honesty - one thing remains clear.
That crazy old man needs a whoopin.
A Joe Frazier whoopin.
IMO
In 1974, during a regular-season win over Kentucky, Knight, after a conference and discussion with Wildcat coach Joe B. Hall, slapped Hall in the back of the head after Hall turned to return to his bench.
In 1979, Bob Knight was arrested for assaulting a police officer during the Pan American Games in Puerto Rico. Bob Knight was later convicted in absentia in a Puerto Rican court. However, the charges were later dropped when Indiana Governor Otis R. Bowen refused to cooperate in extraditing him to the island commonwealth.
Other notable incidents include Knight pulling guard Jim Wisman off the court by his jersey in 1976, throwing a chair across the court to protest a referee's call during a 1985 game against the rival Purdue Boilermakers, and allegedly kicking his own son, Pat Knight, during a 1993 game.
Assistant coach Ron Felling claimed Knight threw him off a chair and punched him in the chest after an eavesdropping Knight overheard him criticizing his program and methods on the telephone.
Felling sued Knight for assault and received an out-of-court settlement of $35,000 from IU.
In a practice session Knight struck and held the throat of player Neil Reed.
In 1999, Knight was involved in a hunting accident in which long time friend Thomas Mikunda was shot by Knight in the back and shoulder with a 20 gauge shotgun while shooting grouse. Two years later Bobby Knight would be sued for the event where Mikunda claimed he coerced him into lying to investigators. They reached a settlement out of court soon after.
Most recently, in March, 2006, a student's heckling at Baylor University resulted in Knight having to be restrained by a police officer. The incident, though, was not severe enough to warrant any action from the Big 12 Conference.
Bobby will - ultimately - IMO - be protected by all the sellouts in professional sports - and his lawyers and PR people.
But - in all honesty - one thing remains clear.
That crazy old man needs a whoopin.
A Joe Frazier whoopin.
IMO
quote:Originally posted by deldad:
And the second question is: what would your reaction be if this was done to your child by their minor league coach, college coach, high school coach, or youth coach?
I really didn't answer the first question.
My honest answer, would most likely be the same as Bee>'s. I would directly thank him for reminding son who he is supposed to be looking at when spoken too, if what lafmom stated happened was true (not physiclly abused).
Yes, he might have put his hand on son, but he might be the same coach who gives son a spank on rear as he leaves the mound. He might be the same coach who would run out in front of the runaway train to protect his players. I think there is a lot we don't understand that goes on behind the scenes in college and professional sports. JMO.
I don't know much about this coach, but if he is so bad, why do they play for him?
There's no doubt Bobby Knight has a serious temper problem, and there is no excuse for the events that have taken place in his coaching career.
But his players graduate, and he generally cares about them after their college careers. I'd rather have my kids play for him than a guy like Bob Huggins of Kansas State, who does more damage to his players than any abuse Knight delivers. An interesting Bob Knight story, when he was coaching the Olympic Team (when amatuers played), Michael Jordan was dogging and goofing around, and Knight walked over to him, the best player in the country, and said calmly, "You're way too f'in good for this." Jordan said it was one of the turning points in his career.
I find the comments saying that Knight has always been protected interesting considering the events that led to his dismissal from Indiana, where he was "egged" on by someone with the hope that he would lose his temper.
But his players graduate, and he generally cares about them after their college careers. I'd rather have my kids play for him than a guy like Bob Huggins of Kansas State, who does more damage to his players than any abuse Knight delivers. An interesting Bob Knight story, when he was coaching the Olympic Team (when amatuers played), Michael Jordan was dogging and goofing around, and Knight walked over to him, the best player in the country, and said calmly, "You're way too f'in good for this." Jordan said it was one of the turning points in his career.
I find the comments saying that Knight has always been protected interesting considering the events that led to his dismissal from Indiana, where he was "egged" on by someone with the hope that he would lose his temper.
Whatever happened to leading by example... if it becomes necessary to lead by hitting, throwing, punching etc then there is not any respect earned...he is leading by intimidation...not someone I would want teaching my children how to go through life or for that matter handle life !!!!! So he has a great reputation for being a knowledgeable coach in the game of basketbell...he lacks the knowledge on how to handle the game of life and furthermore, pity the poor kid whose face has been plastered nationwide...not what I would want for my children
youtube.com has some Bobby Knight clips, slap?
Not sure I would like it, if it were my son, but as a college player, that would be for HIM to decide.
Would be a totally different matter if he was a minor.
Not sure I would like it, if it were my son, but as a college player, that would be for HIM to decide.
Would be a totally different matter if he was a minor.
I got to watch it on ESPN lsat night along with their comments. General consensus was if it were any other coach than him, we would not be seeing it on ESPN!
I caught the throwing chair incident. Two years ago I watched a well known SEC coach toss a bucket of balls towards the umpire after he was ejected. This coach has a reputation for bad temper often shown at games,but never seen on ESPN. He has a reputation for intimidation as well.
I understand that many do see this a form of abuse and uncalled for and they say as parents they would speak up.
I am wondering how many pitchers parents would speak up after coach pitched son 125+ pitch counts in several games per season OR 150 average innings per year. Although coach has not laid a hand on the player, he has abused him.
I am not by any means in favor of this act, but find it interesting that no one talks about coaches on ESPN that abuse their pitchers, and their are plenty that do!
I caught the throwing chair incident. Two years ago I watched a well known SEC coach toss a bucket of balls towards the umpire after he was ejected. This coach has a reputation for bad temper often shown at games,but never seen on ESPN. He has a reputation for intimidation as well.
I understand that many do see this a form of abuse and uncalled for and they say as parents they would speak up.
I am wondering how many pitchers parents would speak up after coach pitched son 125+ pitch counts in several games per season OR 150 average innings per year. Although coach has not laid a hand on the player, he has abused him.
I am not by any means in favor of this act, but find it interesting that no one talks about coaches on ESPN that abuse their pitchers, and their are plenty that do!
Make the world a better place
Jam your point guard in the face
-Robert M. Knight
Jam your point guard in the face
-Robert M. Knight
dont touch a kid dont holler at a kid never say anything that will be interpreted by anybody as hurting their self esteem. cover your butt dont coach
here are some clips I found while searching for video of the foul that set things off
Prince/Knight
Knight press confernce
maybe his real mission is creating borderline incidents so he can "rub" the press
and finally the youth football coach laying out an official (18 yr old kid knocked unconscious) ...
whew that guy musta had 250 lbs on that kid
when football coaches attack!
.
Prince/Knight
Knight press confernce
maybe his real mission is creating borderline incidents so he can "rub" the press
and finally the youth football coach laying out an official (18 yr old kid knocked unconscious) ...
whew that guy musta had 250 lbs on that kid
when football coaches attack!
.
Bee>,
Saw that too, now that's classy!
Some parents set fine examples for their kids. They most likely would be the first to jump on coaches like Bobby Knight!
JMO.
Saw that too, now that's classy!
Some parents set fine examples for their kids. They most likely would be the first to jump on coaches like Bobby Knight!
JMO.
I saw the video clip finally (isn't it a real pain that working for a living just kills the time available for sports...), and I beg to differ with some descriptions I've read. That was a slap, not a redirection of a kid's chin, a slap.
The player is saying the right things assuming he wants to continue to play at Texas Tech, as is his mom.
When you have a track record, and Knight surely does, you know you will be watched closely and your leash is shorter. Frank Beamer of Virginia Tech slapped a player's helmet on TV a few years ago; he apologized and it never became a big deal.
Knight NEVER acknowledges that he is wrong, because in his mind, he never is.
Sorry, I'm a "99% old-school-nothing-wrong-with-old-fashioned-disclipline" type, and really lectured our sons when they were young about looking at someone when they speak to them, but if I'm Texas Tech's president, Knight is gone.
The player is saying the right things assuming he wants to continue to play at Texas Tech, as is his mom.
When you have a track record, and Knight surely does, you know you will be watched closely and your leash is shorter. Frank Beamer of Virginia Tech slapped a player's helmet on TV a few years ago; he apologized and it never became a big deal.
Knight NEVER acknowledges that he is wrong, because in his mind, he never is.
Sorry, I'm a "99% old-school-nothing-wrong-with-old-fashioned-disclipline" type, and really lectured our sons when they were young about looking at someone when they speak to them, but if I'm Texas Tech's president, Knight is gone.
Agree that Coach Knight has a anger management problem. Also remember the "swats" I used to get in HS from the principal (Catholic HS).
THIS IS MY OPINION SO WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH DIFFERING OPINIONS:
I've seen the latest "incident" from three or four different angles and once in slow motion. I agree with over 80% of the country and every coach they interviewed that thought it was blown way out of proportion and would not have even been an incident had it not been because it was Knight.
ALSO MY OPINION. Dr. Spock had it all wrong. Time outs don't work. PC run amok. Touch my kid and I'll sue, etc... Then we wonder why our kids have no regard for authority.
Let the FrankF bashing begin.
THIS IS MY OPINION SO WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH DIFFERING OPINIONS:
I've seen the latest "incident" from three or four different angles and once in slow motion. I agree with over 80% of the country and every coach they interviewed that thought it was blown way out of proportion and would not have even been an incident had it not been because it was Knight.
ALSO MY OPINION. Dr. Spock had it all wrong. Time outs don't work. PC run amok. Touch my kid and I'll sue, etc... Then we wonder why our kids have no regard for authority.
Let the FrankF bashing begin.
I get worried when people/parents seem to be almost blinded by someone's
" prestige " at the expense of a child, player, or human being, at ANY level.
Perhaps this blindness fogs their vision to the point where they psychologically dont want to see what happened. Instead they try and make allowances for a persons bad behavior. Do people REALLY mistakenly misjudge this for respect?
Are they afraid of ramifications to the player if they stand up and disagree with the coach's actions? ( perhaps coach wont play him? )
Do they not want to stir up the waters, so instead they stay silent and hope the issue goes away?
Perhaps they pray it won't happen again?
Perhaps they pray that next time the incident wont escalate and get worse.
( People, does this not have the symptoms of abuse running all over it?? )
To me this sounds like the old " see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" parent mentality.
A mentality that IMO, allows bullies to continue bullying.
Acceptablity lines need to be established and enforced with no acceptions because of someone's " status ".
I was very bothered by Coach Knights's knee jerk reaction to grab the players chin. IMO Coach Knight's first natural reaction was to STRIKE FIRST.
WRONG WRONG WRONG IMO!!!!!!!
Kinda gave me the same baaaad feeling as when I have witnessed a mother or a father slap a child in a store. Anyone ever seen something like that? Makes your whole insides shake. That I believe is our instincts telling us something is wrong, very wrong.
Why Coach Knight gets away with his antics is un-beknown to me & is nothing less than appauling.
Adults throwing childlike tantrums & getting excused for it!!!
There it goes again,...my stomach feels nauseated.
** Coach Knight is NOT a God. I repeat,..he is NOT a God. **
Unfortunately, our world gets more violent everyday.
Perhaps part of the problem is because some of our role models ( who are getting national exposure on tv ) have lowered the bar on good, decent leadership, & behavior.
America,..we are NOT that weak.
We know better than to fall for that!!!!
And for those of you who keep making references to Coach Knight's military background. If he, as a military officer, had done to a soldier, what he did to his basketball player, he would be in STRICT violation of military regulations, would be under investigation, and relieved of command until finalization of the investigation.
FYI: No drill sargeant or officer may TOUCH any of his/her soldiers. As a matter of fact, they arent even allowed to yell obscenities to them.
Hmmm,..perhaps more coaches should be held to this same standard! ha!
( Husband held two company commands at the Infantry Training Brigade & son is a security forces squadron leader ).
In answer to the origional question,....NO I would not allow my child to apply to a school with a coach like Coach Knight.
Why?
Because I have confidence that there are enough competant, capable, ( and albeit hard nosed ) coaches out there who could coach my kids to the dang Olympics if need be,... WITHOUT... having my child physically struck by an outraged, middle aged fool, who doesnt have the ability to control his own anger.
If I was a bettin gal, I'd bet that should Coach Knight have his antics and abuse turned around onto himself, ( well,..I mean, fair is fair right? ) he'd probably be a blubbering, crying, hysterical baby, who begged for mercy.
I'm getting nauseated again.
Big bark, big bite, noballs,..( woopsie did I say that? Am I allowed to say that? )
I meant to say " brains ".
I wonder if Coach Knight slaps his wife around? His own children? Would it be ok if he did?
Why is it ok to abuse a player? Are our standards lower for our athletes?
Bottom line, we would not apply to any school with an abusively uncontrolled Coach. I dont care how many championships have been won.
We want more, ALOT more than championships, for our own kids.
No one TOUCHES ( for ANY reason ) my children, or anyone elses child for that matter.
No one.
" prestige " at the expense of a child, player, or human being, at ANY level.
Perhaps this blindness fogs their vision to the point where they psychologically dont want to see what happened. Instead they try and make allowances for a persons bad behavior. Do people REALLY mistakenly misjudge this for respect?
Are they afraid of ramifications to the player if they stand up and disagree with the coach's actions? ( perhaps coach wont play him? )
Do they not want to stir up the waters, so instead they stay silent and hope the issue goes away?
Perhaps they pray it won't happen again?
Perhaps they pray that next time the incident wont escalate and get worse.
( People, does this not have the symptoms of abuse running all over it?? )
To me this sounds like the old " see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" parent mentality.
A mentality that IMO, allows bullies to continue bullying.
Acceptablity lines need to be established and enforced with no acceptions because of someone's " status ".
I was very bothered by Coach Knights's knee jerk reaction to grab the players chin. IMO Coach Knight's first natural reaction was to STRIKE FIRST.
WRONG WRONG WRONG IMO!!!!!!!
Kinda gave me the same baaaad feeling as when I have witnessed a mother or a father slap a child in a store. Anyone ever seen something like that? Makes your whole insides shake. That I believe is our instincts telling us something is wrong, very wrong.
Why Coach Knight gets away with his antics is un-beknown to me & is nothing less than appauling.
Adults throwing childlike tantrums & getting excused for it!!!
There it goes again,...my stomach feels nauseated.
** Coach Knight is NOT a God. I repeat,..he is NOT a God. **
Unfortunately, our world gets more violent everyday.
Perhaps part of the problem is because some of our role models ( who are getting national exposure on tv ) have lowered the bar on good, decent leadership, & behavior.
America,..we are NOT that weak.
We know better than to fall for that!!!!
And for those of you who keep making references to Coach Knight's military background. If he, as a military officer, had done to a soldier, what he did to his basketball player, he would be in STRICT violation of military regulations, would be under investigation, and relieved of command until finalization of the investigation.
FYI: No drill sargeant or officer may TOUCH any of his/her soldiers. As a matter of fact, they arent even allowed to yell obscenities to them.
Hmmm,..perhaps more coaches should be held to this same standard! ha!
( Husband held two company commands at the Infantry Training Brigade & son is a security forces squadron leader ).
In answer to the origional question,....NO I would not allow my child to apply to a school with a coach like Coach Knight.
Why?
Because I have confidence that there are enough competant, capable, ( and albeit hard nosed ) coaches out there who could coach my kids to the dang Olympics if need be,... WITHOUT... having my child physically struck by an outraged, middle aged fool, who doesnt have the ability to control his own anger.
If I was a bettin gal, I'd bet that should Coach Knight have his antics and abuse turned around onto himself, ( well,..I mean, fair is fair right? ) he'd probably be a blubbering, crying, hysterical baby, who begged for mercy.
I'm getting nauseated again.
Big bark, big bite, no
I meant to say " brains ".
I wonder if Coach Knight slaps his wife around? His own children? Would it be ok if he did?
Why is it ok to abuse a player? Are our standards lower for our athletes?
Bottom line, we would not apply to any school with an abusively uncontrolled Coach. I dont care how many championships have been won.
We want more, ALOT more than championships, for our own kids.
No one TOUCHES ( for ANY reason ) my children, or anyone elses child for that matter.
No one.
quote:THIS IS MY OPINION SO WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE WITH DIFFERING OPINIONS:
Couldn't aggree with you more about the above.
Heated issues,..heated comments.
Thank goodness we have the right to express them!!
At the end of the day, just glad we have the freedom to say whats on our mind!
Doesnt mean were not still baseball buddies/friends!
shortstopmom - I simply loved your post!
The posts that mean the most to me come from the heart.
I agree this is a free country. Thus, I respect both sides on this issue - even you Frank
Seriously, I don't believe Knight is the type of person you can convince someone to change their minds on. He is just too polarizing.
The posts that mean the most to me come from the heart.
I agree this is a free country. Thus, I respect both sides on this issue - even you Frank
Seriously, I don't believe Knight is the type of person you can convince someone to change their minds on. He is just too polarizing.
SSmom, so, I guess you wouldn't let your kid play for me, since I wrote how I touched a kid last summer, huh?
When people say "for any reason" that's kinda like saying never, ever. It sorta paints you into a corner, I think.
When people say "for any reason" that's kinda like saying never, ever. It sorta paints you into a corner, I think.
wow, ya don't want to rile a ssmom
mom prolly didn't know, so I'd just like to respectfuly point out something that probably seems a trivial technicality ...
it's just that "Coach K" is the accepted & official nickname for Mike Krzyzewski, Duke's hall of fame basketball coach and one of THE most sucessfull & respected coaches EVER
thanks
ps - oops, almost forgot to mention that Coach K played for Knight at Army & then was an assisitant under Knight at Indiana AND credits Knight's influence as very imortant to him - hmmm?
.
mom prolly didn't know, so I'd just like to respectfuly point out something that probably seems a trivial technicality ...
it's just that "Coach K" is the accepted & official nickname for Mike Krzyzewski, Duke's hall of fame basketball coach and one of THE most sucessfull & respected coaches EVER
thanks
ps - oops, almost forgot to mention that Coach K played for Knight at Army & then was an assisitant under Knight at Indiana AND credits Knight's influence as very imortant to him - hmmm?
.
quote:Doesnt mean were not still baseball buddies/friends!
Exactly!
Also agree with TPM about pitchers abuse being worse than this incident!!!!!!
I am a little bit in between Frank and shortstopmoms thoughts on this one, I have to confess.
Former school teacher for some abused children, I have a problem with anyone laying hands on anyone.
But if my son showed disrespect for ANYONE (not looking one straight in the eye when being spoken to), he'd better run for cover.
I just know if coach was talking to son and upset, he'd be looking him straight in the eye, because that is what he was taught to do. That's where I stand in agreement with Frank, kids today have no respect for their parents, let alone coaches, teachers, etc.
No I don't want any coach putting his hands on son that may cause physical harm or verbal name calling either. So with that I stand with shortstopmom.
Shortstopmom said:
No one TOUCHES ( for ANY reason ) my children, or anyone elses child for that matter.
Does that include coaches hugs, slap on butt (you know that's a big baseball thing)?
Anyone, if this was your son, would you be more upset because he got touched or he wasn't looking at coach when being addressed?
Frank, abuse comes in many different forms. The same parent screaming , you touched my son, wouldn't bat an eye or say a word for pitcher overuse.
06,
My son would continue to play for you, because I sort of know you and know that it was not done in a way to hurt him, but to get his attention. I think there is a big difference.
Former school teacher for some abused children, I have a problem with anyone laying hands on anyone.
But if my son showed disrespect for ANYONE (not looking one straight in the eye when being spoken to), he'd better run for cover.
I just know if coach was talking to son and upset, he'd be looking him straight in the eye, because that is what he was taught to do. That's where I stand in agreement with Frank, kids today have no respect for their parents, let alone coaches, teachers, etc.
No I don't want any coach putting his hands on son that may cause physical harm or verbal name calling either. So with that I stand with shortstopmom.
Shortstopmom said:
No one TOUCHES ( for ANY reason ) my children, or anyone elses child for that matter.
Does that include coaches hugs, slap on butt (you know that's a big baseball thing)?
Anyone, if this was your son, would you be more upset because he got touched or he wasn't looking at coach when being addressed?
Frank, abuse comes in many different forms. The same parent screaming , you touched my son, wouldn't bat an eye or say a word for pitcher overuse.
06,
My son would continue to play for you, because I sort of know you and know that it was not done in a way to hurt him, but to get his attention. I think there is a big difference.
quote:it's just that "Coach K" is the accepted & official nickname for Mike Krzyzewski, Duke's hall of fame basketball coach and one of THE most sucessfull & respected coaches EVER
Bee, That's so funny because when I read SSMom's post, I kept thinking "what's Coach K got to do with any of this". It wasn't until near the bottom that I figured out she was referring to Knight. Coach K was a passionate coach, but never behaved in the manner of Knight.
I was watching ESPN with my 16 yo when the latest Bobby Knight incident came on. I immediately said to my son that Knight seemed to knock the kid's head back with enough force that it reminded me more of an upper cut than a "lifting of the chin." However, I do believe it is a big deal only because of Coach Knight's reputation, which BTW, is his own fault.
Having said that, I am firmly convinced that our culture is in a bad place when kid's today can violate their authority's will with little or no fear of serious consequences. I would definitly allow my son to play for Coach Knight - even though I am aware that he might receive an "upper cut" from the Coach. What he would gain from Coach Knight would far surpass any moment of humiliation during his time under the coach. I can guarantee you that if he joined the military he would likely experience much harher treatment. One thing I know is that most of the players who have played for Coach Knight love and respect him. To me this is the difference maker. Walk into just about any High School today and see how kids act - they are defiant and undisciplined, simply out of touch with how the real world works.
I will say as a coach of minor age baseball players that I would never put my hands on a kid, unless I was trying to prevent him from harming another child. The difference is that Coach Knight is coaching adults. Just my 2 cents.
Having said that, I am firmly convinced that our culture is in a bad place when kid's today can violate their authority's will with little or no fear of serious consequences. I would definitly allow my son to play for Coach Knight - even though I am aware that he might receive an "upper cut" from the Coach. What he would gain from Coach Knight would far surpass any moment of humiliation during his time under the coach. I can guarantee you that if he joined the military he would likely experience much harher treatment. One thing I know is that most of the players who have played for Coach Knight love and respect him. To me this is the difference maker. Walk into just about any High School today and see how kids act - they are defiant and undisciplined, simply out of touch with how the real world works.
I will say as a coach of minor age baseball players that I would never put my hands on a kid, unless I was trying to prevent him from harming another child. The difference is that Coach Knight is coaching adults. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with Coach May's first post on this one. If the kid is thick skinned and wants to play for such a great coach, then he knows going in what kind of tough individual he's getting as coach. Its funny though, we say that other coaches aren't like that, well they don't show it on national tv at game time, but who knows what happens behind closed doors.
There are many ways to teach and coach.
Remember when we stopped advocating for any form of discipline in our schools, thats when kids stopped learning how to take care of themselves and started taking the gang approach for their own safety, and now they bring weapons to school as they know no other way to solve a conflict.
Where are all the bleeding hearts and their conflict resolution schemes now?
So years ago it was more common to hear about a coach like Knight and not have to see it on tv 60 times in a row every 10 minutes.
Do we arrogantly believe that we are better off today?
There are many ways to teach and coach.
Remember when we stopped advocating for any form of discipline in our schools, thats when kids stopped learning how to take care of themselves and started taking the gang approach for their own safety, and now they bring weapons to school as they know no other way to solve a conflict.
Where are all the bleeding hearts and their conflict resolution schemes now?
So years ago it was more common to hear about a coach like Knight and not have to see it on tv 60 times in a row every 10 minutes.
Do we arrogantly believe that we are better off today?
I'm going to try and open up a can of worms by playing the devils advocate.
We see this all the time, usually in football and basketball. A player makes a stupid play on the court/field, or gets in a trash-talkin episode with an opposing player. A teammate, usually the captain comes over and yanks on his helmet or gives him a good shoves out of the way because they are not playing the way they were taught. We usually look at this player as being a leader?
Do people who think Bobby Knight went went to far, feel that a teammate has the right to be physical with a teammate during a game? Or, are the rules are different if you have a uniform on?
Do you feel that baseball managers who "bump" umpires should be thought of differently than a coach touching a player.
Do players understand beforehand where a coaches line of demarkation are and also understand the repurcussions?
Last question: Are we looking at this issue as parents rather than competitors?
Physical "messaging", is physical "messaging" regardless of who dishes it out. No one was hurt but a point was made under that teams "rules for warfare".
We see this all the time, usually in football and basketball. A player makes a stupid play on the court/field, or gets in a trash-talkin episode with an opposing player. A teammate, usually the captain comes over and yanks on his helmet or gives him a good shoves out of the way because they are not playing the way they were taught. We usually look at this player as being a leader?
Do people who think Bobby Knight went went to far, feel that a teammate has the right to be physical with a teammate during a game? Or, are the rules are different if you have a uniform on?
Do you feel that baseball managers who "bump" umpires should be thought of differently than a coach touching a player.
Do players understand beforehand where a coaches line of demarkation are and also understand the repurcussions?
Last question: Are we looking at this issue as parents rather than competitors?
Physical "messaging", is physical "messaging" regardless of who dishes it out. No one was hurt but a point was made under that teams "rules for warfare".
TPM- the pitcher abuse is another can of worms.
Great thread-has caused me to think alot about my position, I haven't changed it, but I have spent alot of time thinking about it. I approached my 12 year old, who has a great head on his shoulders, and ask him what he thought about the incident. He told me he thought it was no big deal. (I am not sure if this reflects on my parenting or not) I found this interesting because he has little if any recollection of Knight's past transgressions.
Great thread-has caused me to think alot about my position, I haven't changed it, but I have spent alot of time thinking about it. I approached my 12 year old, who has a great head on his shoulders, and ask him what he thought about the incident. He told me he thought it was no big deal. (I am not sure if this reflects on my parenting or not) I found this interesting because he has little if any recollection of Knight's past transgressions.
quote:it's just that "Coach K" is the accepted & official nickname for Mike Krzyzewski
quote:when I read SSMom's post, I kept thinking "what's Coach K got to do with any of this". It wasn't until near the bottom that I figured out she was referring to Knight.
Woops,...soo sorry,..I just was being lazy and got tired of typing his name. I went back and inserted his name where need be. So sorry for the confusuion!
Whew,..I need some coffee! ha!
How do you know when Bob Knight screwed up? When there are 3 or 4 thread pages of analogies of him to everything from military drill instructors and baseball managers to football coaches, nearly everything except a college basketball coach. Maybe he's just under-employed.
I'm sure all of you have heard at some time your son say something like.
Is there any difference between that statement and a wake up tap on the cheek. What bothers me is that society is visually directed. I personally find a statement like that more abusive than tap on the cheek, but we never hear about those verbal incidents from a Coach or Assistant that probably occur on every team many times in a season.
quote:Coach ripped him a new arse today in front of the team, told him he threw like a sissy, he was lazy, and wasn't worthy of being on the same field. The kid was devasted
Is there any difference between that statement and a wake up tap on the cheek. What bothers me is that society is visually directed. I personally find a statement like that more abusive than tap on the cheek, but we never hear about those verbal incidents from a Coach or Assistant that probably occur on every team many times in a season.
Knight's earned the microscope he's under. Players (and their parents) know what the deal is going into Knight's program, and I can certainly understand why they would want to play for him. What I wouldn't be able to understand is a player showing attitude, disrespect, or disinterest to a coach with a national reputation for a bad temper. (This would be where the term Dumb Jock comes from )
Would I let my kid play for Coach Knight? No way --- kid's got no basketball interest or skills, so that would be silly.
Hey, does anybody else find it amusing that a number of people have said that it's wrong for a coach to 'lay hands' and if it happened to their kid (or them) they'd flatten the coach? Hmmmm....mayhaps they're closer to understanding Bobby than they suspect )
)Would I let my kid play for Coach Knight? No way --- kid's got no basketball interest or skills, so that would be silly.
Hey, does anybody else find it amusing that a number of people have said that it's wrong for a coach to 'lay hands' and if it happened to their kid (or them) they'd flatten the coach?
Hmmmm....mayhaps they're closer to understanding Bobby than they suspect )
Verbal abuse. Physical abuse.
Both are wrong.
Both cause damage.
Both unnecessary.
Both are wrong.
Both cause damage.
Both unnecessary.
quote:Hey, does anybody else find it amusing that a number of people have said that it's wrong for a coach to 'lay hands' and if it happened to their kid (or them) they'd flatten the coach? Hmmmm....mayhaps they're closer to understanding Bobby than they suspect)
I thought it was amusing.
Think I'm missing something here. There is a lot of discussion about kids today...disrespect, no manners, etc., etc. There is then justification for actions like Knights because...if I'm reading some of these posts correctly, the kids deserve it today....
Why do we think it's a teacher's job...or a coaches job to instruct our kids on how to behave properly? Don't we, as parents, teach them that.....and shouldn't our coaches and educators be reinforcing what we have already instilled in them? What is Knight reinforcing that I have taught my kid? I'm at a loss for an answer.....and for those of us debating over the "laying of hands"....it always comes down to intent....simple as that...what was the intent....
Why do we think it's a teacher's job...or a coaches job to instruct our kids on how to behave properly? Don't we, as parents, teach them that.....and shouldn't our coaches and educators be reinforcing what we have already instilled in them? What is Knight reinforcing that I have taught my kid? I'm at a loss for an answer.....and for those of us debating over the "laying of hands"....it always comes down to intent....simple as that...what was the intent....
Power.
Control.
Some will sink to any level to demand it,...
others lead by example,
and command it.
( I am trying so hard to be profound, aren't I? ha! Perhaps I need lessons of wit from Dad04. He has a way with getting his serious point across with very few words, while making some of us chuckle at the same time. )
I applaud him!
( especially when things seem to be getting heated on the forum. Gosh, I hate the off season! Can ya blame us for getting a little grouchy & jumping onto this subject? )
Perhaps I need to pull on the ol' long johns,..ear muffs and mittens and go play catch with my son when he gets home from school.
Perhaps I need to be sure and tell him " I love him " again,..for no particular reason.
Control.
Some will sink to any level to demand it,...
others lead by example,
and command it.
( I am trying so hard to be profound, aren't I? ha! Perhaps I need lessons of wit from Dad04. He has a way with getting his serious point across with very few words, while making some of us chuckle at the same time. )
I applaud him!
( especially when things seem to be getting heated on the forum. Gosh, I hate the off season! Can ya blame us for getting a little grouchy & jumping onto this subject? )
Perhaps I need to pull on the ol' long johns,..ear muffs and mittens and go play catch with my son when he gets home from school.
Perhaps I need to be sure and tell him " I love him " again,..for no particular reason.
Before this becomes a condemnation of Knight, consider that there are a number of coaches in college that are considered "players coaches". That always sounds like a coach that is trying to be the players' buddy. Larry Coker at the University of Miami comes to mind and things are not going well in the discipline department there.
It is becoming increasingly difficult for coaches to control players. The players realize they are more important to the university than the doctoral student that is working on cures for cancer or stronger material to build structures with to withstand hurricanes, etc.
Knight has a structured regime where you have to attend class, pass your classes, attend study hall, keep your nose clean and have respect for yourself. As a Tech alum, I do wish he wouldn't place his hands on a player ever, but having said that, if that tap caused that player trauma (which the player said it didn't), he should consider getting out of NCAA D-1 sports.
My son could play for any coach like Knight that still understands that 95% of his players will not go pro and tries to develop a productive human with an education, even if that means the occasional pop on the chin...he probably needs it.
It is becoming increasingly difficult for coaches to control players. The players realize they are more important to the university than the doctoral student that is working on cures for cancer or stronger material to build structures with to withstand hurricanes, etc.
Knight has a structured regime where you have to attend class, pass your classes, attend study hall, keep your nose clean and have respect for yourself. As a Tech alum, I do wish he wouldn't place his hands on a player ever, but having said that, if that tap caused that player trauma (which the player said it didn't), he should consider getting out of NCAA D-1 sports.
My son could play for any coach like Knight that still understands that 95% of his players will not go pro and tries to develop a productive human with an education, even if that means the occasional pop on the chin...he probably needs it.
quote:I'm at a loss for an answer.....and for those of us debating over the "laying of hands"....it always comes down to intent....simple as that...what was the intent....
Good question. In this instance IMO the intent was to get this young man to quit hanging his head, look at Coach Knight and listen to what he was saying. Nothing more, nothing less. From all accounts it worked as when he went back in he played much better.
On a personal note, I coached youth baseball, taught racquetball and never once laid a hand on any kid although there were times I would have liked to. I think there are better ways, but that's just me. That said, I'd still let my kid play for him.
quote:taught racquetball
A racquetball lesson: There is nothing is more effective than a ball welt on the back of the leg or on the butt to get a student players attention to get out of the way.
Sometimes there is a reason to instill a "tough love" lesson, but outside the court unless you understand the situation from both sides it may not be your place to critique it.
Anyone can take a pc approach and make someone better, but in order to become "elite", in most cases it is not done with kid gloves under the scrutiny of those who do not see the whole picture aka parents/fans.
quote:But there is nothing is more effective than a ball welt on the back of the leg or on the butt to get a student players attention to get out of the way.
Yes, I've given and received a few of those donuts. You learn early on to know where your opponent is. Doubles is really fun! I actually got to play former National Champion Marty Hogan in an exibition years ago. Talk about a "schooling".
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
Knight's earned the microscope he's under. Players (and their parents) know what the deal is going into Knight's program, and I can certainly understand why they would want to play for him. What I wouldn't be able to understand is a player showing attitude, disrespect, or disinterest to a coach with a national reputation for a bad temper. (This would be where the term Dumb Jock comes from
Would I let my kid play for Coach Knight? No way --- kid's got no basketball interest or skills, so that would be silly.
Hey, does anybody else find it amusing that a number of people have said that it's wrong for a coach to 'lay hands' and if it happened to their kid (or them) they'd flatten the coach?
Orlando, you always make my day!
Hey you wanna manage a dice baseball team?
No matter what happened kids today are just not as tough as they were years past.