I am shocked with the information that is out there, some parents continue to ignore it. Just turned 14, pitched 55 pitches, then 3 days later 123, then 5 days later 70. My understanding is this has been happening all summer. That is crazy! I wonder how much longer his arm will last?
Replies sorted oldest to newest
It is crazy, but you see it all the time. One of my younger guys played in a tournament last weekend. We kept seeing the same kid on the mound for one of the other teams. I had to check Gamechnger. Over the course of a three day tournament a 10 year old kid pitched nearly 250 pitches. That’s just insane. Shame on the parents as well as the coaches. There’s no excuse for not knowing that is wrong. I also question the tournament directors for not instituting a pitch count limit. Unfortunately not all coaches and parents use good judgement unless they are forced to.
There are two reasons kid’s arms get abused despite all the available information ...
1) Travel coaches who believe it’s about them and the team winning.
2) Dads who ignore the information because it won’t happen to their big, strong, kid.
Agreed on all accounts. In my case, I have 2 bigger than normal 13u players (already almost 6'2") Big and strong. It would be easy to abuse their arms. We are fortunate enough to have coaches that believe that their health & well being come first. We have witnessed the crazy teams throwing their kid over 250 pitches in a tournament. My heart sinks when I see it.
baseballmomx4 posted:It is crazy, but you see it all the time. One of my younger guys played in a tournament last weekend. We kept seeing the same kid on the mound for one of the other teams. I had to check Gamechnger. Over the course of a three day tournament a 10 year old kid pitched nearly 250 pitches. That’s just insane. Shame on the parents as well as the coaches. There’s no excuse for not knowing that is wrong. I also question the tournament directors for not instituting a pitch count limit. Unfortunately not all coaches and parents use good judgement unless they are forced to.
but was he effective? It's clear he likely wasn't efficient. He probably needs to see his pitching coach after the tournament for a lesson.
I know I have laid this story out here before but here goes:
Going back to 2005 my youngest son starts with 9U travel ball. Had older sons so I had been exposed to the James Andrews thoughts on pitching that even back then said cap at 70 per week for under 12.
1st tournament final game - my son starts - I am stats/pitch count guy. By 3rd my son is reaching 50 - we warmup next kid and move on. Being thorough I am tracking the other teams pitch count. Long story short we use 3 pitchers and they use one. We lose the game by a run or two - but what I remember was the 127 pitches the 9 year old threw on a 47 degree mid October afternoon that was probably closer to 40 by 4PM.
After game hand shakes and I come up to the kid and say "nice game - I hope you make it to 10U" Nearly started a riot - his Dad was the next one in line and heard me say it. After some jawboning we moved on.
What happened ---- kid had arm surgery before 11U.
Not the end of story though. At 12U our Head Coach was sitting on his bucket at a tournament between games. An old man had watched us play and had seen us a number of times before came over to complement him on our teams style and discipline. Coach thanks him and says - you have someone here? He says yes and points to his grandson. Turns out it is the kid from 9U - Coach says - Oh I remember him and he is a great player. Goes on to tell the 9U story to the grand dad including our stance on pitch count. The grand dad starts crying and says - God I wish we had turned him over to you guys - he'd still be able to throw.
We never felt better about never having presided over an arm injury to a youth player over 6 seasons of coaching kids less than 13 years old. There may have been some luck but we never pushed it.
We surely could have won more games - but we never lost an arm - worth it.
That is a solid story. I personally knew one player who had elbow surgery at 12 because he was that kid the organization abused to get to the championship game in their tournaments, another had surgery at age 14, same organization. At the young ages, it’s almost better if you don’t advertise the fact that your kid can throw strikes and get outs, at least if he is going to have a better than average chance to play as a pitcher later on.
Never seen it and wouldn't allow it if it happened to my kid.
RJM posted:There are two reasons kid’s arms get abused despite all the available information ...
1) Travel coaches who believe it’s about them and the team winning.
2) Dads who ignore the information because it won’t happen to their big, strong, kid.
And:
3). Rosters that are too small
Like most successful, young pitchers, my son could throw strikes consistently at a young age. One day when he was about 9 years old, a good friend who had been a college All-American and a Seattle Mariner, pulled me aside and said, "Here's the issue you're going to face as his father: There are going to be coaches who are going to want to over-use his arm. Therefore, your ongoing challenge is going to be that of finding coaches who won't be inclined to do that; but, who will do a good job of developing him as a player."
Needless to say, I never forgot that, and I tried to do a good job over his formative years of associating him with coaches who would live up to that advice.
One day when he was about 14 or 15, I was thanking my lucky stars that I'd heard and heeded my friend's advice. That day, he was pitching for his travel team in a game for which some championship was in line. At the end of about 5 or 6 innings in a hotly-contested game, his coach found me on the sideline and said, "I know that your son doesn't want to come out of this game, but I'm going to sit him. He's reached the target pitch count that we set for starting pitchers. This game may seem important to him right now, but he's going to have much more important ones in front of him if we help get him there."
The coach ended up being right on both counts.
I was the coach at 9u and 10u. I was criticized for not pitching my son. Parents didn’t want to hear, “My son is not going to catch two games in the summer AND pitch.” I was accused of costing our team tournament championships. If I wasn’t going to pitch my son their son’s needed to take his innings, that wasn’t going to happen,
The parents most vocal allowed their son’s to be abused at 11u and 12u. Neither made LL all stars. Neither pitched past 13u. My son pitched in high school.
We always had a preseason meeting where we stated goals to parents. Our top goal was always "Prepare your son to make HS Baseball Team"
One season a parent asked us if we were going to go all out to "win games" Asked him to clarify what he meant. Response - If we always put our best pitchers out there we can win more.
This started a long discussion of pitching protocols, safety, long term goals etc. It was spinning out of control.
Finally I said - OK in 5 seconds tell me who won the last 3 World Series. No one could.
So then I said - if the World Series isn't important enough for you to remember who won neither is the St. Patrick's Day 11U in Petersburg. We are giving your sons back to you in one piece - whether you like it or not. There was still grumbling but the point had been made.
The bigger point that always seems to get lost in these discussions is how often kids throw 75+ pitches and then play a full game at Shortstop or Third Base or Center Field in the next game that same day and then they play full games on D the day after that. And the next day too, etc etc...All the warmup throws in pregame and in between innings, plus in game throws, it adds up
You know that happens way too frequently. And it happens all summer on the big field, weekend after weekend. Coaches & Dads who let it happen are, in my opinion, borderline insane.
As I've said, rosters are way too small. Many more high school pitchers should be P.O.'s... If a kid is a tremendous hitter & pitcher let him DH after pitching. But I really believe that until, for the most part, high school ballplayers are either strictly pitchers or position players, a big part of the arm injury epidemic will continue.
3and2, on this we agree. The problem is nobody wants their kid to be earmarked as a PO at age 11...
Dadof3 posted:I am shocked with the information that is out there, some parents continue to ignore it. Just turned 14, pitched 55 pitches, then 3 days later 123, then 5 days later 70. My understanding is this has been happening all summer. That is crazy! I wonder how much longer his arm will last?
Maybe I am the only one, but I don't see this as a big problem. The 123 might be slightly high, but I'm not all that concerned. This would be quite normal under any state's high school rules with a couple of extra rest days over the rules built in here. I don't think this is "crazy" at all.
In Iowa kids in high school are restricted to 180 pitches in a week, 110 pitches in a day followed by 5 days rest. I think the limits are lower for younger players. I don't know if I'd call it crazy, but I'd certainly be checking with my son on how he was feeling.
3and2Fastball posted:As I've said, rosters are way too small. Many more high school pitchers should be P.O.'s... If a kid is a tremendous hitter & pitcher let him DH after pitching. But I really believe that until, for the most part, high school ballplayers are either strictly pitchers or position players, a big part of the arm injury epidemic will continue.
This kid plays 3rd when he isn't pitching
Iowamom23 posted:In Iowa kids in high school are restricted to 180 pitches in a week, 110 pitches in a day followed by 5 days rest. I think the limits are lower for younger players. I don't know if I'd call it crazy, but I'd certainly be checking with my son on how he was feeling.
It is actually 4 days rest, isn't it? I think the scenario in the OP is upper limits of use, but not ridiculous. Definitely calls for monitoring.
I’ve posted this before in many threads.
Parents, write it down. Know how many pitches your kid threw and when. I can give you pitches by day back to 9u for my kid. I was known as “the guy who counts all his kids pitches” to the travel coaches. I chose a travel org based on whether they would listen to me on pitching restrictions. That included lots of 1B and DH time before and after he pitched.
roothog66 posted:Iowamom23 posted:In Iowa kids in high school are restricted to 180 pitches in a week, 110 pitches in a day followed by 5 days rest. I think the limits are lower for younger players. I don't know if I'd call it crazy, but I'd certainly be checking with my son on how he was feeling.
It is actually 4 days rest, isn't it? I think the scenario in the OP is upper limits of use, but not ridiculous. Definitely calls for monitoring.
You're right, 4. And I agree, not ridiculous. Just sometime to keep an eye on.
DAD of 3 and others;
It is time to organize into a parents "union" in your community for the youth programs.
Write a coaches set of rules for the pitchers.Find a local college coach, former pro to assist you. Coach's "10 commandments".
At your son's age baseball is for learning, teaching, developing the tools and having fun. Coaches who do not subscribe should not coach ages '13 and under. If the MLB organizations set a policy for the minor league pitchers, why cannot local youth leagues.
Bob
