WWBA Jupiter

Heck, was told my a couple of Tigers parents after yesterday mornings game they were done and going home, just noticed on the WWBA website they played this morning????

They're still playing. I have a son there on the Houston Heat. They are in the semi-finals against East Cobb (who tied for win last year). Heat was winning 2-0 after 1. I'm about to get another update - probably in the 4th inn. by now.

Tigers playing a consolation game.

Heat is in the finals.

The Tigers were originally told that the finals would be on Sunday. This caused most families to either schedule an extremely late flight Sunday or an early flight Monday. We also were not informed that a consolation game would be on the next day. I must say that we as a team played quite well, but didn't perform as well as we could've. Puerto Rico Baseball Academy impressed me the most out of all the teams we played. They hit solid with also rolling out lefty after lefty-none throwing under 87- and all with nasty dueces. Pitching at this tournament was truly amazing.

Championship game just ended. Reds Scout Team won it over Houston Heat 3-0.

Reds Scout team includes Walker Kelly.

Good stuff, ain't it, KD?

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
Good stuff, ain't it, KD?

Great stuff.

Evaluation in a team atmosphere.

Just curious, a lot of rosters are quite large in an event like this. It is understandable, but what ratio are position players to pitchers? Do most teams have people who only play positions and people who only pitch? Obviously my team has a crossover. Balancing playing time/mound time must be a big concern??? Or is it really?

Bear in mind that a lot of guys shown on rosters don't actually make the trip. They are listed by coaches in case they do come, even when folks realize they probably won't. No harm in having too many, but you run into trouble if you leave somebody off.

I didn't see too many teams with phalanx's of guys left on the benches when teams hit the field. Though I did see one team that seemed to fill pretty much all of their chartered bus!

Maybe playing time was in short supply, but at least they arrived (and departed) in style!

Lots of teams with rosters greater than 20 kids, those are the teams that advanced it seemed.

My sons team took 13, 11 on the first day. They were at a disadvantage to other teams, but most of our guys, including a few pitcher only's played every game.

KellerDad, I like it that way better. In the end, only one team can win it all. It doesn't do you much good to get an extra 1-2 games in if you don't get to play much anyway. And it's an expensive trip if all you're going to do is sit the bench.

This is how we look at it

We go with the intent to win it and carry at least 14 arms, the majority of whom are pitchers only --we had a 26 man roster this year

Yes it is tough to make the playing time work, especially for the pitchers-- what we try to do is get an additional game if and when we we do not get out of pool play

We went one year with less arms , got out of pool play and it cost as we came up short as we could not go to the bull pen when we wanted to.

Better to have too many arms than too few !!!!

I agree with both Milo and TR (Did I just say I agreed with TRhit? )

Either way works. It worked well for my son's team, and it sure as heck worked for the Houston Heat and the Reds Scout team.

With so many of the young ment from my sons team playing football, it would be difficult to put a big squad together.

TR, you are looking at this from the perspective of team success, which I do appreciate.

The one thing that has always struck me about showcase tournaments, though, is that the whole point of going is for the individual player to (hopefully) get noticed. Sometimes that objective gets in the way of team play. E.g., 2 on and nobody out, do you bunt? A team player does. A guy who may get only 7 AB's out of his $1,000 trip to Jupiter would appreciate the opportunity to swing the bat, though.

Given what these tournaments are for, I would lean towards taking a small roster where everybody plays, accepting that you have little chance of winning it all.

In team ball (high school, college, pro, and other situations), you play to win. In showcase tournaments, you play to showcase players.

I believe TR looks at this from the prospective of getting kids he believes in a chance to be seen. If he did not believe in them, he would not take them, so they all get seen. Kudos.

MIDLO

We do not look at it as a "showcase" tournament at all---we look at it as a highly competitive event with great baseball talent which draws the scouts and coaches

We treat showcase tournament quite differently than this event


If we do not believe we can win a tournament why should we enter----why even go on the field if you don't play to win much less go with the atttiude that you cannot win.

Again I say Jupiter , to us anyway, is not a "showcase" tournament.

The point of playing the game of baseball is to win.

In fact, the point of playing any game is to win.

Now don't get me wrong.....there are certain situations in which winning may not be the most important thing. But the intent should still be there.

If a player plays on a team with the intent to win, sooner or later if the kid possess talent his opportunity will come to get noticed.

I think it is wrong to enter an event with the intent to "showcase" a player or players only.

A coach should assemble his roster. Try to allow each player to contribute. Coach and play with the intent to win.............

And let the cards fall where they fall.

In that environment, kids who "showcase" themselves will get noticed.

Being not very smart, I listen a lot to what people (scouts and college coaches) tell us they like the most.

One thing I hear more often than anything else is that they love to see these kids compete on a team that really wants to win. This allows them to see things about a player that just won’t show up at an individual showcase. They absolutely love to see prospects who are “playing for keeps”.
\
That’s what they want to see. The only part of playing to win that they don’t like is when the hitter they came to see is intentionally walked!

You can learn a lot about a player by watching him on a team! Sure, it’s all about the individual players getting noticed… But sooner or later the guy noticing them has to determine if they are good for his team! Maybe the easiest thing for scouts and college coaches is determining who has the most talent. The hardest thing is who is most likely to help their team be successful.

If the coach has done his job well (e.g., putting the team together), he should be able to maintain a reasonable degree of parity with regard to playing time without sacrificing the team's competitiveness.

Different situation for pitchers, of course. A starter is probably only going to throw one game during the tourney.

PG Staff........you have a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
If the coach has done his job well (e.g., putting the team together), he should be able to maintain a reasonable degree of parity with regard to playing time without sacrificing the team's competitiveness.

Different situation for pitchers, of course. A starter is probably only going to throw one game during the tourney.

You bring up a very good point and I agree with your theory in full.

but............

The problem lies here............in most of the Dallas area programs, there are several teams under one umbrella. Usually, there is a figure head name at the top.....

I.E.

DBat- Cade Griffis
Tigers- Tommy Hernandez
Mustangs- Sam Carpenter

But as we all know, these men cannot coach each team at all times.

So, a team is assembled in different ways for different organizations. Each team generally has 1 designated "head coach" appointed from the person in charge of each program.

Now..........here lies the problem.

I believe it is vital for the individual directly responsible for coaching the team to take a major role in selecting roster, personel decisions, schedule, ect. Also, the "coach" should be the one to enforce all expectations towards commitment and player expectations.

Where I see hick-up is that different people are making player decisions instead of the coach doing the day to day operations. I.E. general managers, coaches, players families, owners, ect.

Basically too many chiefs and not enough indians.

So rules, expectations, commitments, ect. get jepordized in which leads to what some call "miscommunication". I call it too many chiefs not enough Indians.

I cannot speak directly for any organization. As some know, I had the pleasure in coaching under the DBAT program. Cade and I had a great working relationship which allowed me to do things as I saw fit.

But, in my opinion, some of the considered "coaches" are really not the ones making decisions.

In which Texan, your theory gets distorted which takes away from the whole experience and concept.

Again, I agree with your statement 100%. Unfortunatly, the way I see it, it's difficult to do such under the circumstances in place sometimes.

My opinions are just that and only that. Again, I cannot speak for the day to day operations of any program out there. But I do comment on what I see to be the norm.

No denying the fact that there will always be someone around who can screw up an anvil.

I know the other thread is supposed to be the quote thread, but Ken are you trying to say

"They want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries" - Bill Parcells

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
I know the other thread is supposed to be the quote thread, but Ken are you trying to say

"They want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries" - Bill Parcells

Tell me how you want the soup to taste and I will make it, but don't tell me what ingredients to use.

Well Gut some coaches are good at coaching and are horrible at the grocery store.

quote:

Originally posted by SWAC:
Well Gut some coaches are good at coaching and are horrible at the grocery store.

I leave this one alone with you for now. But you better come with your guns loaded the next time I see you.

I'm ready Gut;

Having a son who is primarily a pitcher I can say this is a hard subject to debate. On the one hand you want to win every tournament you play but on the other hand (especially your junior summer) you want your son to be seen at every opportunity. Last season in Atlanta WWBA tourn for example my son pitched 4 innings of the 4th game on the fourth day of the 8 days we were there. That cost us about $350 an inning and we played the eventual runner up of the entire tournament that game so he did not shine as well as the pitchers who pitched against less talented teams.
Not claiming my son deserves any more or any less time than the other guys but just stating the facts and the exposure difference some people get and some people do not get.

If you load up to 20 men some kids may not see the field to be seen by anyone. If you go with 13 or 14 surely the coach can work everyone in and still TRY TO WIN and look like you are TRYING TO WIN. I feel the team and coaches you play for should inform you up front how they will handle showcases in the junior year because the player and their parents may want to look at other options where the showcase exposure is the main focus right behind WINNING.

Players who primarily end up pitching and not playing another position pay the same as position players, hang out on the bench every game and play their role and add support, only to maybe get one shot at a couple of innings and hopefully show in that miniscule amount of exposure something a scout will like.

I feel that is an unlevel playing field and overloading a team at a showcase event only means victory is important and NOT the players future opportunities they have played for since T Ball. I feel this is the season (if your an upcoming senior) to let up on the gotta win mentality and let the boys show their stuff to as many scouts as possible.

Just an opinion form a paying parent who wants the best for his son. It is that time where every inning of exposure is crucial and pitchers have it the toughest I feel.

Planoball,

Your post has a bunch of good points that I agree with.

But...........

To you and all parents and players I recommend this...............

Contact schools and coaches prior to the event..............

Let them know you will be there and when you might pitch.

If your son is a pitcher only, going with the expectations to an event such as Jupiter to be "noticed" is not the right approach.

These events have many, many top prospects as well as many top level players.

If your son doesn't light up the radar gun, it will be tough to become "noticed". Unless, he shows a gutsy performance in a "big" game or such.

Now, I'm not saying it's only for the top prospect. There are tons of coaches looking for roster fillers everywhere.

But getting noticed doesn't happen in one outing. Getting noticed happens over the long haul. A player can make himself noticable in many other positive ways other than getting on the mound.

KG- I agree that not everyone is a flat out stud. But getting "noticed" is relative to whom your being "noticed" by. If you want to get noticed by Texas and you aren't a stud, it's going to be difficult, but if you want to get "noticed" by a less popular school, I think it very well could happen. Obviously, sending letters is the best way to do it. Now colleges know that a player is interested in them. It gives them a reason to watch a player. Also, please use the term "roster fillers" gently. I know you did not mean it the wrong way, but I don't want anyone here saying that your taking away from kids playing college ball- I know it wasn't your intention (for clarifying purposes).

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
KG- I agree that not everyone is a flat out stud. But getting "noticed" is relative to whom your being "noticed" by. If you want to get noticed by Texas and you aren't a stud, it's going to be difficult, but if you want to get "noticed" by a less popular school, I think it very well could happen. Obviously, sending letters is the best way to do it. Now colleges know that a player is interested in them. It gives them a reason to watch a player. Also, please use the term "roster fillers" gently. I know you did not mean it the wrong way, but I don't want anyone here saying that your taking away from kids playing college ball- I know it wasn't your intention (for clarifying purposes).

Dtiger- Do you think UTA is gonna go to Jupiter to find a kid throwing 85-87 with a nice breaking pitch? Do you think they will notice him?

Nope..................

Cause they won't be there.

Those kids are a dime a dozen in DFW so why leave home.

Definition of roster filler..........

A team looking for that 11th or 12th pitcher to round out a staff. Valuable, but not priority.

No but plenty of high quality academic schools may be there. Harvard was there. I heard of other high academic institutions that were there. Or a school, maybe not known as well, finds a good prospect for their program.

Interesting recruiting topic- Does a school ever count a kid off their list because he is "too good"? I'm not talking about any school impaticular, but I've always wondered if schools look at a kid throwing 94mph, with nasty offspeed, and say "nope" (not considering reasons like attitude, grades, etc.).

DTiger.........

If you have the academic qaulifications for an Ivy League school, you will recieve a letter of recognization long before they see you on the field.

quote:

But getting noticed doesn't happen in one outing. Getting noticed happens over the long haul. A player can make himself noticable in many other positive ways other than getting on the mound.

Difficult concept only fully understood with hindsight.

You have to play to win. You have to win to stay in the tournament. The more you win, the more opportunities there are.

It's a game.

The reason you play is to win.

Always.

Wow, so from what you are saying KG if my son (who is a young junior at 16) is only throwing 87 right now which he is and he also has a good slider and breaking ball he is only a "roster filler potential"?

D Tiger as well as some of what you mention are great points and I appreciate the feedback. But I disagree with that being his only option avail. He has pitched in the top 3 slots on very good teams that usually play up so I know his potential can grow. He has pitched on many Sundays over the years and has a good pick off move, grit and a pitchers mentality so I know he is worth being seen. I am not trying to toot his horn here though.

Point is our team does not let us know what day who will take the mound and planning ahead is impossible for letting coaches or even family know. Also, it takes repetition and coaching to improve and carrying massive amounts of pitchers on a team that goes to a lot of showcases dilutes repetiion and opportunities.

I agree winning is important and we have a room full of trophies.... but again, in the year you need to get exposure the most wouldn't it be in his interest to have more communication from the team as to when his opportunities will be and how often so you can judge whether to add on some more opportunities in other ways? I agree with the letter writing and so forth fully and appreciate all of your suggestions and feedback, just not ready to agree in my son's case he is only "filler" material yet until he gets proper exposure and feedback. And if going to any showcase event is not to be seen then I am VERY confused as to why it is called a showcase event and obviously would be a waste of time and money if that was your expectation??? And yes I know that Texas may not be his opportunity but even if a Navarro or Sam Houston or a San Jacinto showed interest we would be ecstatic.
Ok enough ranting, I need to go get him looking at colleges he may like and writing letters.

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
You have to play to win.

But exactly what does that entail?

The subject in this thread is the WWBA in Jupiter, and to a lesser extent, showcases in general.

I think Keller Dad will confirm my observation that the WWBA in Jupiter is several notches above a normal showcase.

Probably 1500 players there and 750 scouts, etc.

Maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the players there will show up in next years draft. PG might better quantify that statement for me.

But, in my opinion, that showcase has a very national flavor to it, with the obvious regional attendance.

If I recall correctly, there are three pool games to determine seeding, then a double elemination amongst the top 32 teams.

Texan, my point did mention winning, and probably interepreted as "the winning at all cost winning" which I do not endorse.

But, here my intent was that you have to win those pool games to get into the top 32. Then you get more games as long as you stay.

So, a coach has to manage players, including pitchers and catchers to put the team into a position to win to continue playing.

At that tournament you can sense and feel the competiveness as you walk around.

It is the nature of those players at that level.

That 16 year old 87 MPH pitcher will feel out of place. But, I might still send him. He might not get many innings the first year. But, he will have an idea about how he stacks up against some of the best players in the country.

They may not notice the 16 year old. They are looking at the seniors and the draft eligible players. The coaches will put those players out there first.

The 16 year old will get his chance next year, and with a year of experience out there, his chances will be better with a year of work knowing what to expect behind him.

As was stated earlier in this thread, it ain't about being seen one time and then hitting the bigtime.

It's a long process.

quote:

And yes I know that Texas may not be his opportunity but even if a Navarro or Sam Houston or a San Jacinto showed interest we would be ecstatic.

Texas will be there. Navaro, Sam Houston, or San Jacinto, might not.

Remember it has a national flavor.

And, it will be the first time you get a feel for what it takes to play at that level.


While I was there, I took a photograph, of my son and his team. Later, my son painted a watercolor from that photograph in an art class and, now, that painting now hangs prominently in my office.

I won't ever forget going.

I'd love to go again.

I enjoyed Keller Dad's post very much, knowing that others have enjoyed that experience as much as I did.

Take your 16 year old and don't worry if he gets anytime at all.

And, don't forget.

You can observe a lot just by watching.

Dtiger, I think there are indeed some schools who stop pursuing someone who is "too good". Some won't tie up scholarship money if they think the kid is going pro. Some mid-majors understand that the 95 mph kid is going to a national power program, and turn their attention to others who might actually sign with them.

If you've ever seen the movie, "A Beautiful Mind", they explain the choice theory that sometimes you can do better going after # 2, where there is less competition, than going after # 1 along with everyone else who wants that one. In the movie, he explained it in terms of picking up women in a bar. But I've heard some college coaches explain their recruiting philosophies in much the same way.